Penang To Impose Stricter Rules When Issuing Tourist Visas

[robblok]

I work for my American company on the internet, and pump several million baht into Thailand every year. That's more than any tourist I know of... more than any several tourists I know of. I was willing to do the "fly-to-Penang" thing 4 times a year for the priviledge of living here, but hey... if Thailand doesn't want people who do that living here no matter how much money they put into Thailand, that's fine. Either Philippines or Cambodia will bend over backwards for people to come and contuously pump money into their economy.

The way I see it, Thailand is just too prickly about people coming here and living a good life when other countries (Europe, North America) make it so difficult to do the same thing.

If you do that what keeps you from setting up a company and getting a workpermit with an other visa ?. Then your here legit with no problems you do have to pay taxes.

Well, if you want to legally work for your own company, you have to hire four Thai people to work there also, which will cost you about 20,000 baht per month at minimum wage. That's not counting laywer's fees, management headaches of dealing with Thai corporate law, learning accounting, etc.

I ran my own company for a while. After nine months I found out that at the end of the fiscal year we had to have a specially licensed outside accountant go over our books to swear that our books met Thai government accounting standards and create end-year financial statements from those books. My reaction was "Books? We're supposed to have books?"

In Bangkok you dont have to have 4 thais. But yes that is a big drawback the other things are ok.. probably because im an accountant myself and seem to understand most of thai tax law.

[Galong]

If their intention is to crack down on those working illegally with a tourist visa they should just do random checks at the schools to check work permits and visas. If found working illegally, send them home and also take action against the school directors or president. That would do a lot to reduce what they consider a problem.

I definitely agree with this. In fact, I have recently contact the authorities to expose two companies (direct competition for my company ) who do not have TAT licenses, do not have work permits and of course, do not pay taxes.

If I have to go to all of the trouble and expense that I had to go through to get legal, I believe that everyone should have to do the same thing. These people working illegally are not only stealing jobs from the Thais, they are also screwing legal foreign workers. The tax issue does not really bother me. If the former dictator did not see fit to pay taxes, why on earth should I?

BTW, the TAT so far has apparently done nothing about my cases. Next step? Hmmm, good question. Who ya gonna call? Seriously, who?

[rexall]

Long stay tourists often work illegally, especially in touristy areas such as samui, phangan etc. The government quite rightly, wishes to cut down on the number of illegal workers, avoidance of tax contributions etc.

And exactly how does closing the valve tighter on an entire class of people help the gov to collect taxes? Perhaps I am simple minded, many people tell me so, but if the issue is taxes, wouldn't it make more sense to let the horrible scofflaws work and then tax the income?

Aloha,

Rex

[manjara]

Just to note the on-going ticket has always been a requirement, and requesting it is at the immigration officer's discretion. There really is nothing new here, if you go to get a tourist visa from within the country you should be able to show onward travel.

Regards

The onward ticket requirement indeed HAS always been a requirement, but Penang's refusal to accept onward tickets to other regional countries such as Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, or Indonesia as a valid onward ticket IS something new, contrary to your attempts to belittle this subject.

Hm.. Wrong, the perspective here is a tourist is expected to be just that, in other words there is an expectation to return to the point of origin. It has always been in an immigration officer's purview to ask for details of routing, and if in the officers view the ticket is either a sham, or is an attempt to, being polite, fudge, by the traveller, a visa may be refused. This, again, has always been the case, I recall being quizzed about such a situation more than 10 years ago, at most all that is happening here is that the consulate is advising people that it will view with concern such a 'round robin' approach.

I remember having a 'Round-the-World' ticket from Star Alliance several years ago and being quizzed by Canadian immigration in Vancouver as to the 'purpose of my trip' ?!

'To go round the world??' I suggested....

Strangely, it's always been Canada and Thailand that have been irritatingly officious when I've travelled (probably the last countries you'd expect)

[Hawkup2000]

The big question is: will the other embassies and counsulates in the region follow Penang?

[JIP]

I haven't seen to many farang taxi drivers, policemen, etc. around town.

The changes concerning visa runs came about because people were obviously abusing the system.

There are probably some people who generate money for the Thai economy or are otherwise benign presences in the Kingdom who will be negatively affected by these stricter interpretations of rules and regulations, but then their frustration shouldn't be directed at the authorities but at the farangs who abuse the system to the point that the authorities feel compelled to react.

As for the ensuing mass exodus to the Phillipines or Cambodia and the loss of millions, if not billions, of baht from all these high quality migrants, we hear the same thing over and over, but it never seems to happen.

Heh. I was just talking over lunch yesterday with a friend of mine who says that half of his friends have moved out of Thailand in the last year. I know of two fellows who made millions back in Europe who are moving to Malaysia on the "Make Malaysia My Second Home" plan.

You say, "it never seems to happen". What are you looking for? Empty streets? Of course you aren't going to see that. However, half of the houses in the high-end housing development I live in here in Pattaya are empty and for sale. They were full 2 years ago. Is that close enough?

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

The return ticket requirement has been policy in locations like Singapore, Vietnam, Japan before. I suppose Penang was inundated with visa requests and wanted to decrease them. Let's wait and see how its actually enforced regionally for westerners. There are lots of lower wealth migrant workers who use and abuse this system too.

The going back to the home country once every 6 months to a year is not the end of the world but does weed out some of the more khineo types of long timers.

Another option is to make a tuition donation to a school in Thailand. That helps build up valuable Thai institution/industry and might give you back some education in return. The education visa is used and perhaps even abused in more western countries but the Govt's view it as a strategic win for their value added education systems.

[laocowboy2]

What happens if the person is a non-national resident of Singapore, Malaysia etc? I do not think that they have thought this through.

[maxpower]

The Royal Thai Consulate in Penang is expected to impose stricter rules regarding the issuing of Tourist Visas

[marshbags]

We need to put this into context relating to rules and regulations and face reality.

This is Thailand and if we wish to live here, the only way to do so is to abide by the rules / immigration laws.

We can all argue our cases and provide what appear to us, are just enough reasons to be allowed to stay.

Their are many members who have not only invested money here but the futures of not only ourselves but our families.

It is not just about money.

To all those of you who are using x amount of cash / investments, legal or otherwise as justification to stay.

When we have invested in human terms and have committed ourselves to providing our dependants with all that is required, education and welfare to name but two of many, do not have any security in real terms, how can you expect otherwise / special considerations regarding the requirement of an international air ticket, ect.

You are lucky to have an option to move on and if you are not happy then it is your right to do so.

We do not and while we may not be happy / find it difficult with the demands on staying here, we are here for the long haul and are more than willing to abide by the rules, as and when they change and do so willingly.

All you guys have to worry about is doing one of two things.

1) Provide an international return ticket as required and get your visa.

2) Move to a new country / return to your home base.

It,s a tough life, i know, but at least you knew the rules when you came here and at the end of the day you made a decision to do whatever you have done.

Enjoy your freedom and move on because many who have family obligations cannot leave our loved ones behind.

I,m pretty sure, Immigration, who will be reading all your observations will continue to act as they read the laws to mean, we in turn must respect the requirements and what they ask of us.

This is their country after all and when it all boils down to it, we in turn are lucky with what we,ve got as it could be a whole lot worse.

IMHO as always.

marshbags.

Edited January 31, 2008 by marshbags

[solodennis]

The best places in the Philippines is either far south or far north. Manila sucks and Cebu has become too crowded simular to the Thai islands....

[JIP]

The best places in the Philippines is either far south or far north. Manila sucks and Cebu has become too crowded simular to the Thai islands....

Absolutely. I'm going to live in the city of Cagayan De Oro on the island of Mindinao. (No: The terrorists live way up in the mountains hundreds of miles away. Don't worry if you want to visit, as it is very nice and safe if you aren't out in the jungle.)

[Edonista]

Foreigners in Thailand, its time to unite and fight against these stupid immigration laws

Yes, it' time we all relocate to Cambo and Phils

[Arkady]

I totally agree.

This means that anyone wanting to live in Thailand has to be either working, studying or retired.

What about the independantly wealthy?

The independently wealthy can get the Thailand Elite Card and stay without leaving.

You are on the right track. This crack down on tourist visas was started by the TRT government, so we can expect to see it intensified under the new PPP government. Thaksin made it clear that he only wanted tourists with money. Hence the Elite card nonsense. They actually made it harder for independently wealthy people under 50 in 2006 by cancelling the investment visas for those who put down Baht 3 million. Perhaps that was to push them into buying Elite cards, although the country would obviously gain more from their Baht 3 million investments. the investment visa was for one year but Elite card holders have to go to Immigration for a renewal that they pay for every three months. The general idea is that that, if you are under 50 and not married to a Thai, you have to be prepared to pay tax or pay for an Elite card. Wealthy people can easily buy an Elite card or set up a business and get a work permit. The rest are the low end that they would just as soon export to Cambodia or the Philippines. BTW I don't agree with their thinking and I am not an Elite card holder.

[JimmyTheMook]

<< I work for "my American company on the internet" and "pump" several million baht (sic) into Thailand every year. >>

So -- given your apparent willingness to proceed on the presumtion the post at the head of this page is other than the projection of a fantasy and/or idle gossip -- Pump" a lousy few Thousand Baht into -- and present to the Consul when applying for your Thailand Tourist Visa -- a First Class ticket home.

Then what would he have to whine about ?

[LivinLOS]

Well! just how easy isit to get a long term turist visa in EU for a thai citizen? Or in US? I'm sure of that it can't be done by going in and out of the border. The visa rules in Thailand are indeed very generously compared with EU and US.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=129155

Totally incomparable.. And IMO far easier for a Thai to go and reside in EU IF they can (like we all have to) support themselves without being a drain on the economy. Then of course things like automatic citizenship, full and equal treatment under law, land ownership, etc..

[Maestro]

What happens if the person is a non-national resident of Singapore, Malaysia etc? I do not think that they have thought this through.

A resident of, for example, Singapore – national or not – travelling to Thailand for tourism would want to return to his place of residence, ie Singapore, and for this purpose he would have a return ticket.

--

Maestro

[astor]

Just out of curiousity - why is the Thai Gouvernment so "Anti Long Stay Tourist" ...... I know alot of guys that work in the UK / Europe for 6 months during srping / summer, save up alot of cash, then go to Thailand for the autumn / winter (6 months) and spend all that cash...... I'm talking like 10 grand...... as in half a million Baht..... surely that is a good thing for the country? I can understand why they would want to stop foriegners buying up land & houses, pushing up prices etc., but what is wrong with people hanging around spending what is locally a hel_l of alot of money..... this money is filtering back up the entire country one way or another..... the typical long stay tourist is not exaclt a burden on the state?

Just seems pointless to me........... could some one fill me in?

I think they see it more as a way to combat foreigners working illigaly in Thailand.

This seems a colossal lie. Where are all this foreigners working illegally? I don't belive that. We all know, how difficult it is for a foreigner working in Thailand. Let alone to do it in illegally way.

First ; because the employers prefer Thai staff . But above at all, because no employer would expose to the risk to end up in jail , just for having hired an illegally employee. Unless it's a crazy.

[dancingfool]

the interesting quote in your new rule on tourist visa is, i quote you: to not abusing the system. what does that really mean? i am spending tons of baths here on hotels, cars rentals, food, restaurants, and i am abusing the system...hmmm...many countries would love to be abused that way...If Thailand gets too cocky about itself, people will eventually go somewhere else...I am all for cleaning Thailand of the junkies farangs hanging around pattaya and such but think about all the business thailand can be loosing from decent, thai wife supporter and so on...who get no rights whatsoever...thailand is not the USA. So tell those guys in power to be careful, thailand may be forcing itself into a switzerland heaven that might never happen...i am open to comments but i also spend 50K in 6 weeks in thailand, arent they happy about the income...sure they are...like we say back home, dont try to fart higher than you a...Thailand immigration makes the INS look like a walk in the park.

thank you for reading.

Peace.

[rexall]

<snip>I can't say that I blame the Thai authorities for wanting to protect their country.

I think almost anybody who wants to genuinely stay here will find a way to do this legally.

It may be difficult, but a lot easier than the majority of Thais would find moving to the west.

This is an extremely telling point, and really has nothing to do with Thailand, per se. The same argument is taking place in the U.S. about immigration, legal and illegal, from Mexico. There are those who see immigration as highly suspicious and threatening and feel the need for tight controls, and those who do not. It an essentially liberal/conservative debate. The conservatives not only see immigration (and thus immigrants) as threatening and dangerous, but for some reason, seem much more highly indignant and offended at the very idea that someone might break an administrative regulation in order to improve their quality of life or economic circumstances. They say things such as "The Law Is The Law!" which appears to have some deep significance to them, but if you ask them to explain what the hel_l that means, they stammer a lot!

[JimmyTheMook]

Foreigners in Thailand, its time to unite and fight against these stupid immigration laws

Yes, it' time we all relocate to Cambo and Phils

Both have very little to offer compared to Thailand , why do you think this place is so much more popular ?

The law is the law and tourist visa's were not meant to be used for living in Thailand and the goverment has been very lax with the laws regarding this.

Want to live in Thailand , secure the correct visa to do so or go live in somewhere else.

[JIP]

Foreigners in Thailand, its time to unite and fight against these stupid immigration laws

Yes, it' time we all relocate to Cambo and Phils

Yup. I'm headed to The Philippines at the end of this month. Been planning it for 5 months now actually.

Listen though: If you move away, don't think of it as some kind of "punishment" for Thailand. Thailand isn't going to miss us: These tighter immigration rules effect... what?... maybe 20,000 foreigners? If all 20,000 of us leave, do you think they will even notice that amidst the 10 million tourists who come and go every year?

Thailand wants to do this to feel like they have a better control over their immigrant population and that is their right to do. There is no other benefit to it, and it isn't going to chase off drunk tourists or other bad people... just people who didn't want to or weren't able to get "proper" visas... like me.

But seriously: No hard feelings, Thailand.

[JIP]

I think they see it more as a way to combat foreigners working illigaly in Thailand.

This seems a colossal lie. Where are all this foreigners working illegally? I don't belive that. We all know, how difficult it is for a foreigner working in Thailand. Let alone to do it in illegally way.

First ; because the employers prefer Thai staff . But above at all, because no employer would expose to the risk to end up in jail , just for having hired an illegally employee. Unless it's a crazy.

I'm working in Thailand on a tourist visa: I work for an American company on the internet. I suppose that is bad, but (a) every penny I earn gets spent in Thailand, and (B ) I don't qualify for a single Thai goverment tax-paid benefit that I am aware of and don't use any.

Still though, if Thailand doesn't want me here, that's cool. I'm moving to the Philippines soon anyway, and can stay there for up to 16 months on a single tourist visa.

[EaglesGift]

Just to note the on-going ticket has always been a requirement, and requesting it is at the immigration officer's discretion. There really is nothing new here, if you go to get a tourist visa from within the country you should be able to show onward travel.

Regards

You are saying that there has always been a requirement to have a ticket to a destination outside of South East Asia? I think that is simply untrue. Seems like a crazy regulation to me if it were to be enforced at all borders. Basically no tourists who were planning on visiting neighbouring countries after their time in Thailand would be allowed in.

[solodennis]

...I was in Loaog and Batac and Currimao early last year. Spent about a month bumming around. Further north is Pagudpud with long fabulous beaches and great stretches of islolation if wanted. Except for Loaog which has a airport, the towns are small but friendly. I would suggest buying a car or jeep which is cheap and easy and good insurance is also inexpensive.

[baruto]

this change will definitely result in more and more vacant condos.

[thailoneus]

I'll be waiting for the rest of you to show up.

Not me mate , I,ve got a taste of Cambodia ......... and it tastes pretty dam good

I have been planning on retirement in Thiland so much that its very disppointing to read all your mail. Could Madcow and Callipposhots provide some info about Cambodia and the Phills please?

[maprao]

I'll be waiting for the rest of you to show up.

:D

Not me mate , I,ve got a taste of Cambodia ......... and it tastes pretty dam good

Mmmm I googled Cambodia and Vietnam and even looked at some websites. If I wanted to find what most people go to Pattaya for, where would I go in Cambodia or Vietnam. On the same scale so to speak. No advice need on the PI thats easy to locate! If you do not want to post here PM me.

In other words Patters or Patpong same same in Cambodia or Vietnam

Edited January 31, 2008 by maprao

[MaiChai]

Working illegally in Thailand? Show me an legal well paid job that foreigners can do without a work visa? If they mean being an English teacher, unless you are really poorly paid at home I would say working for 30K baht per month in Thailand is hardly worth the effort? Most long term foreigners are here because they can afford it. Thus why can't foreigners stay long term if they spend loads of money while they are here?

[JIP]

Foreigners in Thailand, its time to unite and fight against these stupid immigration laws

Yes, it' time we all relocate to Cambo and Phils

Both have very little to offer compared to Thailand , why do you think this place is so much more popular ?

(1) The Philippines and Cambodia are cheaper than Thailand.

(2) The Philippines and Cambodia don't have the tough visa requirements of Thailand.

(3) The Philippines and Cambodia offer the same tropical and exotic living as Thailand.

(4) The Philippines and Cambodia are (currently) more welcoming to foreigners.

The law is the law and tourist visa's were not meant to be used for living in Thailand and the goverment has been very lax with the laws regarding this.

I agree. It was the relaxed visa rules that led me to move here in the first place. It was either here or Brazil, but Brazil requires you to fly home to your own country every 6 months. Hence, I came to Thailand. Since Thailand will soon be like Brazil, I'm moving on.

Want to live in Thailand , secure the correct visa to do so or go live in somewhere else.

I agree. That's what I'm doing.