Pursued For Cash By Greedy Family

[Bramble]

In order to co-operate in settling affairs after the death of my partner last year, the family is demanding Baht3.5m. It's not strictly a legal matter at this stage, but my lawyer doesn't see how we can respond effectively wthout going to court which I'm not at all keen to do (years of uncertainty, wasted money).

The family has had enormous amounts of cash from me already (monthly allowances, redeeming their land from repossession, etc, etc) and the claim is utterly absurd.

I don't know what to do. I feel that the problem cannot be resolved while it remains private (surely if it were made public there would be some shame in making such demands?) Currently I have written to the UK Embassy (they say they can do nothing), and am thinking about writing to the Governors of my province and the family's. I might even go to a TV station or newspaper in the end. So many farang have this kind of problem yet the miseries remain mostly hidden: what can we do to get the problem recognised and resist this exploitation and abuse. I've made a generous offer to them to settle everything, but they are being driven by a greedy lawyer (presumably on a percentage), and I don't know what to do to resist the pressure. Any thoughts?

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[Scott]

Just exactly what is there to settle?

[Neeranam]

The family has had enormous amounts of cash from me already (monthly allowances, redeeming their land from repossession, etc, etc) and the claim is utterly absurd.

Don't give them a single baht then. Is there any reason that you'll need to be in contact with them again?

[Bramble]

The family has had enormous amounts of cash from me already (monthly allowances, redeeming their land from repossession, etc, etc) and the claim is utterly absurd.

Don't give them a single baht then. Is there any reason that you'll need to be in contact with them again?

I need their sigantures (along with mine and another partner) on property sales documents. Without their signatures and ours, we cannot sell, and there will be no money of any kind for anyone. My (generous) settlement offer to them (much less than their daft demand) would come out of the proceeds of the sale.

[bendix]

I'm struggling to understand what there is to 'settle' too.

[DragonQuest]

Dont give them a satang, and disappear from them, case closed, your partners dead, end of story.

[Guest Reimar]

If you like to get some advice which applies to your case, to first you need to give more Details. What you wrote tells nothing about the main thing: is the Partner a Partner in your company or is it an personal relationship or both?!

And why has to settle anything?

Cheers.

[samran]

they've obviously got something you want, but none of us are sure what it is...is it the house?

what can we do to get the problem recognised and resist this exploitation and abuse?

get all the signatures you need to sell on undated letters before you even buy!!

[PadThaiGuy]

Hard to judge from the info weather 3.5million if fair or not.

This is my advice.

Your lawyer needs incentives to save you money.

How well do you know this lawyer? Is he Thai? Who knows? He could be colluding with the "enemy"?

I'd be very skeptical of any advice from a Thai Lawyer in a case - Farang vs. Thai.

There are things happening under the surface of any deal involving money.

Be carefull.

[Bramble]

If you like to get some advice which applies to your case, to first you need to give more Details. What you wrote tells nothing about the main thing: is the Partner a Partner in your company or is it an personal relationship or both?!

And why has to settle anything?

Cheers.

I'm sorry I have not made things clear. Personal live-in relationship for six years, no marriage or formal contract between us. I need the family's cooperation to sell a property which is in my deceased partner's name, but which I and another English friend have a lifetime right to use (recorded on the Chanote), as providers of the investment capital. My English friend and I must sign the transfer to a new buyer as well, because no-one will buy a property while two Englishmen have a lifetime right to use it. We can sell the property and receive the proceeds only if the family agrees to sign. On the other hand, they cannot sell without our cooperation either. They are effectively asking for 70% of the sale price to agree to sell at all. No-one gets any cash unless we all agree to the sale and sign the documents.

[kash]

If you like to get some advice which applies to your case, to first you need to give more Details. What you wrote tells nothing about the main thing: is the Partner a Partner in your company or is it an personal relationship or both?!

And why has to settle anything?

Cheers.

I'm sorry I have not made things clear. Personal live-in relationship for six years, no marriage or formal contract between us. I need the family's cooperation to sell a property which is in my deceased partner's name, but which I and another English friend have a lifetime right to use (recorded on the Chanote), as providers of the investment capital. My English friend and I must sign the transfer to a new buyer as well, because no-one will buy a property while two Englishmen have a lifetime right to use it. We can sell the property and receive the proceeds only if the family agrees to sign. On the other hand, they cannot sell without our cooperation either. They are effectively asking for 70% of the sale price to agree to sell at all. No-one gets any cash unless we all agree to the sale and sign the documents.

why sell then, live there?

[steveromagnino]

I'm sorry I have not made things clear. Personal live-in relationship for six years, no marriage or formal contract between us. I need the family's cooperation to sell a property which is in my deceased partner's name, but which I and another English friend have a lifetime right to use (recorded on the Chanote), as providers of the investment capital. My English friend and I must sign the transfer to a new buyer as well, because no-one will buy a property while two Englishmen have a lifetime right to use it. We can sell the property and receive the proceeds only if the family agrees to sign. On the other hand, they cannot sell without our cooperation either. They are effectively asking for 70% of the sale price to agree to sell at all. No-one gets any cash unless we all agree to the sale and sign the documents.

I don't see that appealing to anyone is going to help; if you push hard enough you might discover that a court might feel you were trying to circumvent the laws regarding land ownership.

In fact, it sounds to me like this is an issue of poor estate planning that has led to the negotiation.

What i can recommend is to find a suitable Thai person of high standing to act on your behalf, and attempt to negotiate a position of mutual advantage. Do you know or have connection to such a person?

To me there is no question that they have the attitude she left them land and thus it is theirs to do with as they see fit. Since by law, obviously you could have no claim on the land ownership directly. Therefore, the 30% value they ascribe to your interest in the matter, to them, probably seems fair.

The issues of various other things you have done for them probably reinforce the notion that you have tons of money and this isn't going to hurt you. There is a strong possibility they neither like nor respect you.

That's why a 3rd party on your behalf is probably the best way forward. A well respected Thai lawyer might be an option if you don't have a 'phoo yai' (and I mean a genuine one, not just an Or Bor Tor or low level person) that allows you to remove yourself from the situation, and get a satisfactory resolution.

But be prepared to open your wallet. Their claim is strong, and it is fact that they could just wait and eventually it will be theirs outright anyway.

Chalk it up to experience. Life is short.

[mrt273nva]

sub lease the property since you have exclusive rights to it. there isn't a dam_n thing that they can do about it.

[ozzydom]

Tell the family that you have decided to live your life out there,patience is not a Thai virtue ,they will soon be knocking on your door.

[meadish_sweetball]

If it cannot be settled without going to court and is in a good location, maybe you could rent it out (if that's allowed according to the lease?).

[Crossy]

Tell the family that you have decided to live your life out there,patience is not a Thai virtue ,they will soon be knocking on your door.

Hmmm, this could lead to a reduced life expectancy, "rest of your life" may become shorter than anticipated

Edited February 13, 2008 by Crossy

[bendix]

Am i missing something here? While he may have provided the capital for the property he wants to sell, it is not actually the OP's to sell. All he has is a usufruct 'right to use' for his lifetime after which it reverts to the ownership of his partner or whoever she has bequeathed it to? Has she left it to the OP? If so, he has a year to get rid of it. Perhaps the family knows this already.

Sounds to me like you're buggered, pal.

[Crossy]

Sounds to me like you're buggered, pal.

If he only has an usufruct then I have to agree

[0Mix1up]

Not married

No company ownership

You got a 30 year lease?

I would imagine if she hasn't left it to you in a fully legal will

Then all you have is a right to rent it.

If thats the case then 30% is a good deal.

[GuestHouse]

As you don’t own the land but you do have rights to use the land.

On your side you have the knowledge that no one will buy the land while your signature is on the Chanote.

Against you are the rights of the OWNERS and importantly your eagerness to sell up to get your capital out.

As others have said, if you go to court you may well be seen as holding the OWNERS to ransom.

What you ought to be aiming at is getting to a position where the family want to sell, and they are asking you how much you want compensating in order to give up your valuable life long tenancy.

r

It of course seems that there is a lot stacked against you, but I do think you have two more cards up your sleeve – Time and your knowledge of the life style and habits of your former partner’s family.

You have stated that you have previously paid off their debts and that you have provided an income to them in regular hand-outs.

A few things to note here – My guess is the family have an ingrained habit of debt, lately encouraged by the expectation that you will always be there to pay off debts they amass.

I also suspect that the sudden expectation of a cash lump sum has been the cause of much partying, much planning and much expenditure.

Added to which the steady income you once provided has dried up.

Time and old habits are almost certainly going to bring new debts. Thwarted expectations of easy cash and the goodies it has been ear marked for is sure to bring about frustration. Loss of income is simply going to hurt… every single day.

I would therefore withdraw your offer, get a tenant (or better still continue to use the property yourself). Get your lawyer to write to their lawyer that ‘the offer they have made does not compensate you for your loss of tenure, you can’t afford to accept their offer and you shall continue retain and make use your rights to the property’.

This is a double message – a message to the family they are not going to get any easy money any time soon and its also a message to their lawyer that he himself is not going to get paid. Don’t tell your lawyer your game plan (as others have said, he may be in on the act) - just give the outward impression that you have changed your mind.

Then wait and see what happens.

Greed is a vice that right now is being directed at you – when you cut off the family’s expectation of easy and quick money, greed will remain and start to eat at them.

Greed, debts, frustrated expectations, daily hardship…. Believe me - They will be back with a better offer.

In summary, calm down and play hard to get.

You foolishly created a dependency – Now for once use it to your advantage.

[Bramble]

As you don't own the land but you do have rights to use the land.

On your side you have the knowledge that no one will buy the land while your signature is on the Chanote.

Against you are the rights of the OWNERS and importantly your eagerness to sell up to get your capital out.

As others have said, if you go to court you may well be seen as holding the OWNERS to ransom.

What you ought to be aiming at is getting to a position where the family want to sell, and they are asking you how much you want compensating in order to give up your valuable life long tenancy.

r

It of course seems that there is a lot stacked against you, but I do think you have two more cards up your sleeve – Time and your knowledge of the life style and habits of your former partner's family.

You have stated that you have previously paid off their debts and that you have provided an income to them in regular hand-outs.

A few things to note here – My guess is the family have an ingrained habit of debt, lately encouraged by the expectation that you will always be there to pay off debts they amass.

I also suspect that the sudden expectation of a cash lump sum has been the cause of much partying, much planning and much expenditure.

Added to which the steady income you once provided has dried up.

Time and old habits are almost certainly going to bring new debts. Thwarted expectations of easy cash and the goodies it has been ear marked for is sure to bring about frustration. Loss of income is simply going to hurt… every single day.

I would therefore withdraw your offer, get a tenant (or better still continue to use the property yourself). Get your lawyer to write to their lawyer that 'the offer they have made does not compensate you for your loss of tenure, you can't afford to accept their offer and you shall continue retain and make use your rights to the property'.

This is a double message – a message to the family they are not going to get any easy money any time soon and its also a message to their lawyer that he himself is not going to get paid. Don't tell your lawyer your game plan (as others have said, he may be in on the act) - just give the outward impression that you have changed your mind.

Then wait and see what happens.

Greed is a vice that right now is being directed at you – when you cut off the family's expectation of easy and quick money, greed will remain and start to eat at them.

Greed, debts, frustrated expectations, daily hardship…. Believe me - They will be back with a better offer.

In summary, calm down and play hard to get.

You foolishly created a dependency – Now for once use it to your advantage.

Thank you, Guesthouse, that's all very helpful indeed. It's a sound tactic and one that might bring results. They know (or have been told) that I don't have money to splash about after paying hospital and funeral bills, and that the property is the only source of any signiifcant amount of money. I don't need to be reminded how foolish I have been as I reap the nasty fruits of naively trusting people, and I hope others can be spared the same kind of abuse. One of my concerns was that large numbers of farang have this kind of problem, and we ought to see if there isn't some way of bringing it into the open so that it doesn't just remain a needlesly repeated private agony. I don't know how we could do that. Thank you all for your thoughts! Good luck.

[soundman]

GH is on the money with his approach.

If you have time up your sleeve & don't "need" the money that could be realised from selling the property - you hold the ace of spades in the short to medium term.

Make this known - wait a year or two to show these people you are not bluffing.

If you have a usefruct agreement, they cannot do anything with this property without your consent (unless the agreement was made under a section numbered 1469 of the civil & commercial code, not at the initial purchase of the property - good TV link here).

If you want a good price for property in Thailand - be prepared to be very patient.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[TopDogger]

How did your partner die if you don't mind me asking?

[Heng]

Hopefully they won't be back with an offer you never get the chance to refuse (aka, 'is that an underpowered moped engine I hear?').

Steve's advice is best here. Next time buy a condo and own it outright.

Edited February 13, 2008 by Heng

[lannarebirth]

If it is a usufruct that gives you your claim on the land, Sunbelt Asia contends that you may lease out the land for up to 30 years at anytime during the course of the usufruct. If is a usufruct until your death, if you were ever aware when that might be, you can control the property beyond your lifetime. That knowledge, combined with absolutely cutting off contact and funds to the family might get them around to your way of thinking in several months time.

edit: That might also make you worth more dead than alive, which is never a good position to be in. Do not give your contact details and only have them respond through an attorney. IMO that should be a new attorney.

Edited February 13, 2008 by lannarebirth

[soundman]

If it is a usufruct that gives you your claim on the land, Sunbelt Asia contends that you may lease out the land for up to 30 years at anytime during the course of the usufruct. If is a usufruct until your death, if you were ever aware when that might be, you can control the property beyond your lifetime. That knowledge, combined with absolutely cutting off contact and funds to the family might get them around to your way of thinking in several months time.

edit: That might also make you worth more dead than alive, which is never a good position to be in. Do not give your contact details and only have them respond through an attorney. IMO that should be a new attorney.

That is exactly the way I understand it. One minute before you die you can sign a 30 year lease agreement to another party and that is untouchable unless that party sells it back to the owner of the land.

Can't see usefruct agreements lasting too long when the power's that be wake up & realise the potential of such laws to effectively pass the control of Thai soil to other parties for up to two generations.

[cafes]

Excelent post from "guesthouse" I hope you follow his advice, I really do.

It is sad to see that some poeple forget "rule number 1": NEVER BUY PROPERTY in somebody else's name in Thailand unless they are your own children then of course it's a different matter....

And rule number 2: NEVER TRUST A THAI (but we all knew that already )

As you don't own the land but you do have rights to use the land.

On your side you have the knowledge that no one will buy the land while your signature is on the Chanote.

Against you are the rights of the OWNERS and importantly your eagerness to sell up to get your capital out.

As others have said, if you go to court you may well be seen as holding the OWNERS to ransom.

What you ought to be aiming at is getting to a position where the family want to sell, and they are asking you how much you want compensating in order to give up your valuable life long tenancy.

r

It of course seems that there is a lot stacked against you, but I do think you have two more cards up your sleeve – Time and your knowledge of the life style and habits of your former partner's family.

You have stated that you have previously paid off their debts and that you have provided an income to them in regular hand-outs.

A few things to note here – My guess is the family have an ingrained habit of debt, lately encouraged by the expectation that you will always be there to pay off debts they amass.

I also suspect that the sudden expectation of a cash lump sum has been the cause of much partying, much planning and much expenditure.

Added to which the steady income you once provided has dried up.

Time and old habits are almost certainly going to bring new debts. Thwarted expectations of easy cash and the goodies it has been ear marked for is sure to bring about frustration. Loss of income is simply going to hurt… every single day.

I would therefore withdraw your offer, get a tenant (or better still continue to use the property yourself). Get your lawyer to write to their lawyer that 'the offer they have made does not compensate you for your loss of tenure, you can't afford to accept their offer and you shall continue retain and make use your rights to the property'.

This is a double message – a message to the family they are not going to get any easy money any time soon and its also a message to their lawyer that he himself is not going to get paid. Don't tell your lawyer your game plan (as others have said, he may be in on the act) - just give the outward impression that you have changed your mind.

Then wait and see what happens.

Greed is a vice that right now is being directed at you – when you cut off the family's expectation of easy and quick money, greed will remain and start to eat at them.

Greed, debts, frustrated expectations, daily hardship…. Believe me - They will be back with a better offer.

In summary, calm down and play hard to get.

You foolishly created a dependency – Now for once use it to your advantage.

[a2396]

How did your partner die if you don't mind me asking?

Good question & I suspect may be a component of this "can of worms" story.

[steveromagnino]

It is sad to see that some poeple forget "rule number 1": NEVER BUY PROPERTY in somebody else's name in Thailand unless they are your own children then of course it's a different matter....

And rule number 2: NEVER TRUST A THAI (but we all knew that already )

Yeah ALL OF US are out to rip you dumb farang off

Cut out the dips^&t comments about trust and the racist insinuation ya clown What is this 'we'???

Anyhow, I would repeat to use a lawyer or senior person to remove any face to face dealings, not just for personal safety possibly, but also because i suspect many foreigners who don't speak Thai well have distinct problems of controlling their emotions when they perceive someone is 'extracting the urine'.

By making the family lose face, this could reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally drag out or become vindictive. Keep it all impartial, enforce your rights, and at least iMHo consider sorting it out without you actually having to be present too much of the time. I would definitely not be visiting the place for long weekends etc for instance.

Cafe - you are a true legend and a scholar. Well done homey.

[Spee]

If you like to get some advice which applies to your case, to first you need to give more Details. What you wrote tells nothing about the main thing: is the Partner a Partner in your company or is it an personal relationship or both?!

And why has to settle anything?

Cheers.

I'm sorry I have not made things clear. Personal live-in relationship for six years, no marriage or formal contract between us. I need the family's cooperation to sell a property which is in my deceased partner's name, but which I and another English friend have a lifetime right to use (recorded on the Chanote), as providers of the investment capital. My English friend and I must sign the transfer to a new buyer as well, because no-one will buy a property while two Englishmen have a lifetime right to use it. We can sell the property and receive the proceeds only if the family agrees to sign. On the other hand, they cannot sell without our cooperation either. They are effectively asking for 70% of the sale price to agree to sell at all. No-one gets any cash unless we all agree to the sale and sign the documents.

In addition to a lot of the other advice which sounds excellent, I had these comments.

- Did your partner have a will to indicate how to resolve the issue of her signature?

- In order to sell, one needs a buyer and in particular a buyer who is willing to pay the price you hope to get. The more locally publicized this issue gets, the less likely you are to find a buyer who will pay what you think the property is worth.

- The best way to remove pressure is do deal with it quickly and resolve the matter completely to closure, or to completely remove yourself from the picture and let the pressure release over time. The first option doesn't seem very pragmatic in your case.

- If anyone finds a lawyer whose primary advice is to get the matter into court to get it resolved, then the best option is to sh*t-can that lawyer and go find a real one.

- Although this doesn't sound like it would be acceptable, I would suggest some sort of incentive/dis-incentive to the family. Basically tell them, here's the deal. Go help me find a buyer. If we get the asking price, you get 10%. If we get below the asking price, you get 5%. If we get above the asking price, you get 15%. Incentivise them to create a situation where everyone can "save face." As others have suggested, do all this through a decent lawyer, which does not seem to describe the one you have now.

- If you are going to let the property as others have suggested, then you need to be sure you will get an amount of rent to make it worthwhile. If you rent a nice place for peanuts with the chance that the renters may trash it, then you will lose money and gain headaches over time. You might almost be better off leaving the place empty.

- I would also get some insurance if you can. The chances of vandalism, arson or something like that, may be a possibility.

- Something that hasn't been suggested but might be worthwhile is this. Your partner's family was in debt before you met her. You were a jai-dee chap and helped them out with their problem once. To me, it seems quite likely that the family is probably now back in debt, and this is pushing them for the quick kill and cash influx. I would have someone make some inquiries to find out if they are in debt, if so by how much and to whom, and offer to resolve their debt problems for their signature.

- Of course, this assumes that their debt problems are not too serious and manageable. If the family has gone and gotten themselves in debt to a significant percentage of the property's selling value, then they have probably created a very serious problem for both them and you. On the other hand, if it their current debt is smallish and something you can handle, then maybe you have some room to bargain.

- I'm no legal expert, but the last thing you should want is to have this settled in court. As the farang, you should expect every tie-breaker and benefit of the doubt to work against you.

Good luck with your problem. Unfortunately, it sounds like you will need it.