Condo Projects Facing Oversupply

[trajan]

Take the "must be close to the BTS" philosophy. This is true for now but it will change. The market will demand more. After all why catch the BTS? At rush hour its crowded, cramped and really very unpleasant, and it will get worse too once they extend the lines to residential destinations further afield. Do you want to buy a condo in Thonburi? They will have BTS too.

So when we look to areas that will perform well in the future, we must look at more than just mass transit, I predict that soon tenants will demand to be within walking distance to their office. Representing the long awaited evolution of prime locations in Bangkok.

Sure locations with an easy walk to a BTS station will outperform areas that are not either close to commercial centers or a BTS, but it is the established commercial centers that we should look to going forward. These prime locations will keep on getting better.

I agree that mere BTS/MRT proximity will not be the only factor for higher demand units....the central location of the project (as well as quality of the project of course) will also be major additional factors.....I personally wouldnt look for a unit in Thonburi or Onnut even if it is near a BTS station.... the commutes on the BTS (and in cars/taxis) to the CBD & commerical zones during rush hours are getting more and more unpleasant each year...

in addition, the shopping, eating, entertainment etc. conveniences and attractions very near the unit plays a huge role....those kinds of conveniences and attractions of course congregate and develop in the central core zones...

although Bangkok is a huge metropolis, those ideal locations are rather finite and therefore the available units fitting those descriptions become rarer to own...

I personally do not believe there is an oversupply of units in those ideal locations and that a decision to buy quality, well-managed places in such finite zones would be a good bet (for example, Langsuan/Chidlom/Wireless/Ruam Rudee, Silom/Saladaeng, certain Sathorn areas, certain Sukhumvit areas, certain Thonglor areas etc.) ...

does your firm have an opinion on the identity of those prime neighorhood locations? with definite parameters like this website attempts to do Bangkok Neighborhood guide (with Star rankings)

for example, I noticed in that website that "Neigborhood I" (bordered by Rachadamri Rd., Ploenchit Rd., Witthayu Rd. and Rama 4 Rd.) gets a very high 4.5 Star ranking

[quiksilva]

Whilst we don't have grades for locations per se, we do have a definition of what we consider to be the Central Business District.

This L shaped district is Bangkok's equivalent to the City of London, and is home to most of major MNC's and financial institutions and the highest density of office buildings, which makes it a tenant rich environment

The CBD is bordered to the East and West by Sathorn, Silom, Wireless and Rajadamri Roads. Ploenchit defines its Northernmost boundary and it is bordered to the South by Narathiwas.. (aka New Road, Thanon Dat Mai), between Silom and Sathorn.

This area (and the roads/sois which it encompasses) is as good as it gets in Bangkok.

[trajan]

yes, that follows exactly the highest rated neigborhoods I and IX.1 in the website above.....

I have two in that L zone and am very happy (and previously sold a third one in Saladaeng, which I slightly regret now)....

[thaigene2]

But scarcity comes into play agai about CBD. Someone a while back noted that a satellite imagery of cenrtal BKK shows that there are many, many undeveloped sites. Not to mention the run down <deleted> holes waiting to be demolosihed. New today - old tomorrow. Tend to agree with Quicksilva's thinking on the BTS, but don;t know that we will see large numbers of condos popping up in central areas for young office commuters (aside from the land rush we've seen already - pretty sure they've spent daddy's money by now - unless prices drop a lot or their wages rise a lot). Someone said before you can't build in the CBD for less than 40,000 ish PSM.

Edited February 19, 2008 by thaigene2

[bingobongo]

why is it that people will overpay for stocks and real estate not for oranges, groceries, or life's necessities? becasue there are no emotions involved when buying lifes necessities, and we all know that emotions and money never go well together

anyway, i thought this was interesting, the LOS property market is in the "denial stage" as are global property markets

2003-2005 was euphoria

2006 was anxiety

Edited February 21, 2008 by bingobongo

[t.s]

Bongo

If this is the case then plz explain to me why I have been offered 35% more for my condo than what I payed off the plan in early 2005?

If I sold now I would make 1.8 million Bht clear profit....THIS IS A FACT.

Your doom, gloom and the "sky is falling" statements just doesn't match what's going on in the real world Bongo.

Perhaps true in the low end condo segment....but CERTAINLY not in the high end segment in Bkk.

you have not made a single baht until you have sold, and the longer you hold on to your unit, the less desirable it is.

[cclub75]

Talking about "oversupply"... TC has updated the chart (here) about "condos registrations Bangkok and Provinces").

+11 % in 2007 (+34 % in 2006 compare to 2005).

Edited February 22, 2008 by cclub75

[bingobongo]

Talking about "oversupply"... TC has updated the chart (here) about "condos registrations Bangkok and Provinces").

+11 % in 2007 (+34 % in 2006 compare to 2005).

simply beautiful cclub75, simply beautiful

and the stupid thing is, is that with rates artificially low and inflation raging, more and more projects are going up daily, thanks for the post

[Maestro]

Could one say that there are two distinctly separate condo markets: the market for owning and the market for renting?

There are two statistical figures I should like to see:

1. Unsold condos as a percentage of total number of condos owned or available for sale.

2. Empty condos as a percentage of total number of condos rented or available for rent.

--

Maestro

[thaigene2]

Could one say that there are two distinctly separate condo markets: the market for owning and the market for renting?

There are two statistical figures I should like to see:

1. Unsold condos as a percentage of total number of condos owned or available for sale.

2. Empty condos as a percentage of total number of condos rented or available for rent.

--

Maestro

I'd like to add one more:

3. Percentage/Ratio of "Sold" unoccupied condos that are financed by Thai financial institutions.

I want to know whether Thailand has its own sub-prime bubble that has, so far, gone unreported. The Thai banks revealed their relatively low exposure to US sub-prime crisis, but (to best of my knowledge) have remained silent on their exposure to domestic property oversupply fueled by availability of their easy credit offers.

Assume the banks have to report their 'bad loans' as a liability/loss like any other publicly traded entitity. Perhaps we won't know til 2008 reporting periods?

[backflip]

"the longer you hold on to your unit, the less desirable it is."

You must be talking about your "opinions", and I'll agree with that. As for Thai real estate "crisis", I'm sure you can provide us with a list of names of farangs who have lost money in the market. Funny, I haven't read a single post about that.

[backflip]

"Talking about "oversupply"... TC has updated the chart (here) about "condos registrations Bangkok and Provinces")."

The chart simply indicates the number of condos that were put on the market, and completely ignores the number of units that have been sold. I would have expected no less from a website calling itself "Thai Crisis".

[obsession]

"Talking about "oversupply"... TC has updated the chart (here) about "condos registrations Bangkok and Provinces")."

The chart simply indicates the number of condos that were put on the market, and completely ignores the number of units that have been sold. I would have expected no less from a website calling itself "Thai Crisis".

[/quot

Thats because its about the Thai property crisis that seems obvious to most of us but obviously not to some. Its so apparant, that theres a website about it. .

For anyone looking at Thai property, it is utterly obvious that there are thousands of unsold units, and yet they keep building.

[billaaa777]

what utter nonsense....if there is an oversupply, then the price should decrease under the law of supply and demand...that is often not the case here...with supply often just lying dormant instead of selling at a decreased price....that is not a perfect equilibrium....

More like supply and no demand, look at real estate ads in Bangkok post and websites, properties unsold for 6 months or longer and they increase selling price, true market forces would say that if a property cannot sell at a certain price, after a period of time it means price is too high and needs to be dropped down, in Bangkok it goes up, supply and demand does not apply here

Do you two even read what you post? Have you ever read an economic book and attempted to understand the difference between short term and long term commodities?

Condos are not like bananas that have a life span of five days or so. With bananas the price must be adjusted instantly in order not to lose your entire investment.

The correlation of prices of condos in regards to the supply and the demand of condos does not adjust instantly, but incrementally over a period of time. What often happens is a few people in a building will have a need for cash after holding a unit for a period of time, usually at least a year or so. At which time they will sell at a lower rate to receive an influx of cash. When this happens a new market value has been established for that particular building for the short term.

But there are also long term investors in that building which have plenty of cash and are able to hold out until the demand for units increases again. In other words if they were to put their money in the bank at 5% interest they would only need to wait 5 years to have the essentially the same return as they would if they sold their condo for 25% more than they paid for it.

Another major point you are missing is the vast majority of the people purchasing units are not looking at them principally as an investment, but as a place to live and raise a family. And if they are fortunate enough to live there long enough their condo will increase in value.

There is a reason it is called “The Law of Supply and Demand.” Because after hundreds of years of study by individuals much smarter than you or I they have been able to determine a direct correlation to prices one will pay for an item as it relates to the demand for that item and the availability of that item in the market.

[ray08]

what utter nonsense....if there is an oversupply, then the price should decrease under the law of supply and demand...that is often not the case here...with supply often just lying dormant instead of selling at a decreased price....that is not a perfect equilibrium....

More like supply and no demand, look at real estate ads in Bangkok post and websites, properties unsold for 6 months or longer and they increase selling price, true market forces would say that if a property cannot sell at a certain price, after a period of time it means price is too high and needs to be dropped down, in Bangkok it goes up, supply and demand does not apply here

Do you two even read what you post? Have you ever read an economic book and attempted to understand the difference between short term and long term commodities?

Condos are not like bananas that have a life span of five days or so. With bananas the price must be adjusted instantly in order not to lose your entire investment.

The correlation of prices of condos in regards to the supply and the demand of condos does not adjust instantly, but incrementally over a period of time. What often happens is a few people in a building will have a need for cash after holding a unit for a period of time, usually at least a year or so. At which time they will sell at a lower rate to receive an influx of cash. When this happens a new market value has been established for that particular building for the short term.

But there are also long term investors in that building which have plenty of cash and are able to hold out until the demand for units increases again. In other words if they were to put their money in the bank at 5% interest they would only need to wait 5 years to have the essentially the same return as they would if they sold their condo for 25% more than they paid for it.

Another major point you are missing is the vast majority of the people purchasing units are not looking at them principally as an investment, but as a place to live and raise a family. And if they are fortunate enough to live there long enough their condo will increase in value.

There is a reason it is called "The Law of Supply and Demand." Because after hundreds of years of study by individuals much smarter than you or I they have been able to determine a direct correlation to prices one will pay for an item as it relates to the demand for that item and the availability of that item in the market.

If you google "supply and demand" you will find it to be a very complicated formula with many variables ,me being a simple Noodle vendor might not comprehend such complicated equations, But i do know that in the bangkok market the demand is far less than the supply , put it any way you want and lets include secondhand properites the supply far outstrips any real demand,

i have the same problem in my soi with my noodles , but when i offer them at half price all of a sudden they sell out , so that is where the demand must be ,

as for your example of holding on to a unit for a further 5 years for the market to catch up , well great theory , called the "pigs fly theory "

[billaaa777]

If you google "supply and demand" you will find it to be a very complicated formula with many variables ,me being a simple Noodle vendor might not comprehend such complicated equations, But i do know that in the bangkok market the demand is far less than the supply , put it any way you want and lets include secondhand properites the supply far outstrips any real demand,

i have the same problem in my soi with my noodles , but when i offer them at half price all of a sudden they sell out , so that is where the demand must be ,

as for your example of holding on to a unit for a further 5 years for the market to catch up , well great theory , called the "pigs fly theory "

You did express one intelligent statement, “Me being a simple noodle vendor.”

Other than that you have no idea what you’re talking about!

If supply greatly outstrips demand then please explain why we are not witnessing a drastic drop in the selling prices of these condos? Are you attempting to tell me that 100% of the people that own these condos are not in need funds for short term uses? That could be the only possible explanation for prices not decreasing when supply is increasing and demand is dropping, as you are stating.

The example I attempted to give you, which you obviously misunderstood is that ownership of a condo is a long term investment that certain individuals have the funds to maintain their investments through the small ups and downs that occur in any long term investment market.

[stevemiddie]

If you google "supply and demand" you will find it to be a very complicated formula with many variables ,me being a simple Noodle vendor might not comprehend such complicated equations, But i do know that in the bangkok market the demand is far less than the supply , put it any way you want and lets include secondhand properites the supply far outstrips any real demand,

i have the same problem in my soi with my noodles , but when i offer them at half price all of a sudden they sell out , so that is where the demand must be ,

as for your example of holding on to a unit for a further 5 years for the market to catch up , well great theory , called the "pigs fly theory "

You did express one intelligent statement, “Me being a simple noodle vendor.”

Other than that you have no idea what you’re talking about!

If supply greatly outstrips demand then please explain why we are not witnessing a drastic drop in the selling prices of these condos? Are you attempting to tell me that 100% of the people that own these condos are not in need funds for short term uses? That could be the only possible explanation for prices not decreasing when supply is increasing and demand is dropping, as you are stating.

The example I attempted to give you, which you obviously misunderstood is that ownership of a condo is a long term investment that certain individuals have the funds to maintain their investments through the small ups and downs that occur in any long term investment market.

You sir........have no concept of Thai business practices. You are thinking in terms of Western business practices.

Many Thai,s will quite happily sit on an empty property for ages until they get the price they are looking for. The same as their second hand car market.

When things are slow, many Thai,s will increase prices..in the belief that they must make more money from a customer in order to alleviate the lack of income from other non-customers.

I know it doesn,t make sense to westerners, but thats how it is.

[backflip]

" it is utterly obvious that there are thousands of unsold units, and yet they keep building. "

Obsession, you are absolutely correct, and no one has ever denied that there are thousands of unsold condominiums in Bangkok. The question is, are there sufficient unsold condos to qualify as an "oversupply", and force a price decline? The answer is a solid "no". In a metropolitan area of 10 million people, there are 5,000 unsold condos. So what? You can't afford to buy a condo in BKK now, and do you think the price would go up or down if there were NO unsold condos? The answer is "up". With no unsold condos available, do you think that the rental costs of apartments would rise or fall? The answer is "rise". The number of unsold condos is a nice buffer, and that's that.

[billaaa777]

You sir........have no concept of Thai business practices. You are thinking in terms of Western business practices.

Many Thai,s will quite happily sit on an empty property for ages until they get the price they are looking for. The same as their second hand car market.

When things are slow, many Thai,s will increase prices..in the belief that they must make more money from a customer in order to alleviate the lack of income from other non-customers.

I know it doesn,t make sense to westerners, but thats how it is.

You’re so right that I have no idea of Thai business practices. And I am so glad I think in only Western terms. But, then again in the three years I have been utilizes the skills I acquired in the US and the Masters degree I obtained in Accounting I have average in excess of 100% per year on my ROI. But then again I am sure you do so much better.

And as for Thai’s sitting on properties and then increasing their prices since they can’t sell them is true in approximately 50% of the cases. But guess what, those are the ones I pass on. But the other 50% that need money to pay their rent, feed their families, send there kids to school or pay medical bills or what ever other reason they might need to have to access to cash immediately are the one I buy.

But then again to find those opportunities takes a great amount of work. You need to develop contacts, you need to pass out 100 Baht bills to security guards, maids, girls that work at the front desk, maintenance men and any body else that can turn you on to a good deal.

But of course that takes work, it takes time, it takes money and most of all it takes knowledge that is acquired thought 100’s of hours of research. Such as checking 30 plus real estate agents webs sites daily, reading every real estate publication and visiting 40 plus real estate agents offices bi-weekly looking for deals.

The best part of doing all that work when I first started is that I know longer have to do it, my phone rings constantly now with deals, but I only have so much money I can put out a one time. Which is why I have so many investors taking advantage of my deals where I am able to make a small percentage off their investment by offering them condos to buy, renovations of the condos and selling of the condos.

But then again it takes work, work and more work, something it is obvious a trait you are extremely adverse too!

[ray08]

Billaaa777

Just noticed a quote below from another thread in the thaivisa real estate the you posted , below is part of your quote

As somebody who actively participates in the condo market in Jomtien and Pattaya I can tell you it is always a good time to buy here. There are new buildings going up everywhere that are all being sold.

After comments like that i feel very very sorry for the poor investors who follow your advice

[Maestro]

From a condo owner at Baan Sathorn Chaophraya I learnt that about 30% of the floor area (not of the total number of units) remains unsold. However, until I know what percentage of the total number of condominiums in Bangkok are unsold I cannot possibly comment on a newspaper headline talking about an oversupply.

Reading that article to which a link is given in the OP I see a lot of figures supplied by Assoc Prof Manop Bongsadadt, president of Thailand's International Real Estate Federation, but no figures that would let me calculate the above ratio. There are other interesting snippets, though:

– The developers are facing...a 20-per-cent increase in construction-material costs.

– Housing Business Association director Issara Boonyong said once construction costs increase as much as 20 per cent, a number of city condominiums offering prices of less than Bt30,000 per square met will no longer be able to develop their projects, because their costs will have increased from an average Bt18,000 per square metre to between Bt20,000 and Bt23,000

I’ve read it twice and still can’t see how one can conclude from the above figures that a number of developers will be suffering a loss. In fact, I would say the these figures are useless. First there is the selling price of 30,000 for specific condominiums, then the average cost of 20,000-23,000 Baht. If Khun Issara said that a developer sold his condominiums at 18k/m2 and by the time he finishes construction his cost will be 20k/m2 I could understand the talk about a loss, but he is not saying that, is he?

--

Maestro

[bingobongo]

i guess when it comes to eating or buying an overpriced condo, food wins out.............now if BOT does not raise rates, inflation gets worse, if they raise rates to curb inflation, then the last leg of condo mania will be cut off

Inflation leads to worries on consumer spending

Consumer price inflation is at its highest since 1982 in Singapore and it is at multiyear peaks in Thailand, Indonesia and other parts of Asia, with prices rising faster than interest rates.

The real interest rate is almost minus 1 percent in Thailand , and close to zero in Taiwan, the Philippines and China.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/25/business/consume.php

[billaaa777]

As somebody who actively participates in the condo market in Jomtien and Pattaya I can tell you it is always a good time to buy here. There are new buildings going up everywhere that are all being sold.

After comments like that i feel very very sorry for the poor investors who follow your advice

Those poor investors your talking about I am know having to turn away, I just can't handle all of them. It is just getting to be just to much work and when I refuse to work over three hours a day I now even getting tired of doing condos for them. It cutting into my golf game and my nightly adventures on walking street. But I wish you the best of luck and hopefully you will be very successful in a very short time. Thanks for your concern though, I really appreciate it!

[ray08]

As somebody who actively participates in the condo market in Jomtien and Pattaya I can tell you it is always a good time to buy here. There are new buildings going up everywhere that are all being sold.

After comments like that i feel very very sorry for the poor investors who follow your advice

Those poor investors your talking about I am know having to turn away, I just can't handle all of them. It is just getting to be just to much work and when I refuse to work over three hours a day I now even getting tired of doing condos for them. It cutting into my golf game and my nightly adventures on walking street. But I wish you the best of luck and hopefully you will be very successful in a very short time. Thanks for your concern though, I really appreciate it!

I am already very successful ,but thanks, it the thought that counts

[beginner]

– Housing Business Association director Issara Boonyong said once construction costs increase as much as 20 per cent, a number of city condominiums offering prices of less than Bt30,000 per square met will no longer be able to develop their projects, because their costs will have increased from an average Bt18,000 per square metre to between Bt20,000 and Bt23,000

I've read it twice and still can't see how one can conclude from the above figures that a number of developers will be suffering a loss. In fact, I would say the these figures are useless. First there is the selling price of 30,000 for specific condominiums, then the average cost of 20,000-23,000 Baht. If Khun Issara said that a developer sold his condominiums at 18k/m2 and by the time he finishes construction his cost will be 20k/m2 I could understand the talk about a loss, but he is not saying that, is he?

--

Maestro

The land and build cost of condo developments is only a small part of the total selling price.

Marketing costs soon mount up.

For example, Raimon Land here in Pattaya are running frequent television advertisements plus very expensive prestige ads in newspapers and magazines. Then there is the PR spend.

On top of that they sponsor various sport and charity events and give regular free receptions to their supporters.

This is all paid for ultimately by the condo purchasers. All developers of large scale projects do much the same.

No doubt, someone more familiar with local marketing costs of completed projects could advise what percentage of sales price is absorbed by such items and special costs like very high incentives to agents to sell or buy off plan and flip later. The Arnold real estate encyclopaedia suggests a total marketing cost of 20-30% is the norm.

In the present uncertain market for new build....that might be insufficient to create a profitable development.

[steveromagnino]

No doubt, someone more familiar with local marketing costs of completed projects could advise what percentage of sales price is absorbed by such items and special costs like very high incentives to agents to sell or buy off plan and flip later. The Arnold real estate encyclopaedia suggests a total marketing cost of 20-30% is the norm.

In the present uncertain market for new build....that might be insufficient to create a profitable development.

No idea about Arnold...typically Thai developers set total project value of 2-4% as marketing expense excluding show unit and sales commission.

Sale commission is another 1.3 - 3% depending on negotiation skill and tough to say how many units require an agent...perhaps 80% in some cases....

Sales unit hard to judge, but certainly not more than 1% total project value.

Hard, impossible, to imagine a development with more than 10% of total project value being spent on marketing. Arnold sounds suspect, unless that is based on project cost....then...perhaps.

Riamon land at a guess run at 2X the norm. Sansiri run at lower than the norm.

Bear in mind that the total investment on a project - land, building materials, marketing....of say 1b baht. The developer wants to get out with say 2b baht in sales. Takes him/her 3 years to complete the project...that isn't exactly a monster IRR For the risk and effotr involved.

In fact... a mere 26%....worth getting out of bed for....but only just. Running a WACC of 12% say (fairly reasonable WACC for a decent but not massive sized company) and that isn't exactly rolling in the cash is it!

using the example above.... 10% (which would be crazily large) of a 2b baht project = marketing and sales expense of 200m baht; more likely a company would be running at around 1/2 that 100m baht. 20-30% of 1b = 200-300m baht. Arnold is overestimating by about double to triple of the real expense.

Edited February 26, 2008 by steveromagnino

[quiksilva]

No, its much less than that. Pure marketing is more like 5%. Other costs of sale, i.e. commissions are an unavoidable expense for a developer, this may be anywhere between 1-5% depending on, well lots of factors.

This may not seem like much but remember some of these projects cost somewhere in the region 1-2 Billion Baht, and 5% marketing on that goes along way in Thailand!

I think the main point on what Maestro is missing from his equation is the cost of land, which continues to rise. Build costs of high rise condos today are in the region of 18-20k per square meter (on the gross built up area) excluding land, marketing, professional fees and other acquisition and sales costs. Build costs keep on rising along with cost of structural steel, most of which has to be imported, such is the quality of steel in this country.

Edit-- yeah what Steve said, some definitely spend less than 5% but they pay for it in sales

Edited February 26, 2008 by quiksilva

[VegasVic]

A friend bought a place in Jomtien a few years ago. The Land Office was packed with people doing business.

Recently, he went there and it was empty, like a ghost town.

I think there are serious problems in the local real estate market.

Pad thai guy, many of my friends here stateside who travel with their thai wives back to visit their inlaws in that area have told me the same story recently. They say that a number of new condo projects that looked like a slam dunk a couple of years ago are now being used as seviced apartments, and some others that are in mid construction look as though they have been abandoned or at the very least postponed.

[VegasVic]

Supply and demand means that there is a market to meet that supply , if i am overstocked in product that means i have no demand for my product ,i can do 2 things ,

Thai Way : Hold on to my stock and wait for demand to meet my supply

Western Way : Discount old stock in order to get rid of inventory , where there is no demand at my current price if i discount enougth there will come a price where someone will see a bargain at that price and hence a demand

And please when we talk about the Bangkok market ,lets not forget the secondhand market can someone show me the supply and demand there ?

Ray, I was informed about this real estate phenomenon (The thai way) before my wife and I spent the winter in Thailand (Dec. 2006-March 2007) but did not really believe it until we started to travel and research real estate throughout the eastern gulf region, Hua Hin, Issan, and Chiang Mai. Not only is this phenomenon very apparent in condos and homes(many of the houses and condos we looked at over a year ago are still on the market, and have increased their asking price) , but it is also in many beachfront developments from Ban Chang all the way to Klaeng that were finished and left empty or almost empty since 1997. The concept of a bank or any financial institution in the west holding on to a non preforming asset for 10 years is inconceiveable. While in Chiang Mai we met a lady that was desperately trying to sell her house, she had the house on the market for nearly two years and when we asked her what the asking price was when she first listed it she said "the same price it is now" almost in a quizical fashion wondering why we would ask such a foolish question. It struck me as very odd that this total lack of business accumen thats seems to permeate thai society could equate to the rise of Thailand over the last 20 years as the economic "star" of SE Asia, then I met a German industrialist who does business in Thailand and he unabashadly told me point blank that it was not thai businesses or thai businessmen that have brought Thailand out of the third world, rather it was a combination of the the American presence during the 1960's building their air bases and the roads and infrastructure and R&R facilities that goes along with it, and then European, American, Chinese, Japanese and later on Korean businesses that came to Thailand and employed thais and exported their goods. He went on to say that even today if he needs to fill a skilled position (like IT) he has to go headhunting back in europe because there just are not very many thais qualified in those skilled areas.

[VegasVic]

Billaaa777

Just noticed a quote below from another thread in the thaivisa real estate the you posted , below is part of your quote

As somebody who actively participates in the condo market in Jomtien and Pattaya I can tell you it is always a good time to buy here. There are new buildings going up everywhere that are all being sold.

After comments like that i feel very very sorry for the poor investors who follow your advice

This must be a problem that permeates thai visa! I know when I first started posting last spring about what my due dilligence uncovered in my travels throughout Thailand, I was assailed constantly by a crew (Palm and highdiver come to mind, I forget the others) of posters that rebutted anything I had to say, claimimg that everything was rosey in thailand both in the real estate sector, export sector, business sector and tourist sector, despite both legitimate news articles and economic numbers to the contrary from inside and outside the country. I see that not much has changed since then and while I don't remember this fellow Billaaa as one of the gang, he sure sounds like a realtor(or someone who needs to dump some condos) who is a little desperate for business!