Sinsot Question (yet Another One)

[blizzard]

ill help.

poor village gurl and funky farang is wopt op wants to know.

not rich thai rich thai marriage. not rich farang girl to poor thai boy. not rich thai gurl to poor farang...............lol.

[dee123]

.....oh I see "clear as mud".......perhaps you and sbk should tell the Thais your rules too.......hmmmm kinda similar to double pricing is it........sort of ???

Edited February 23, 2008 by dee123

[blizzard]

i see y yr havin a hard time sir. i have no clue as to how sin soot works. i havent stated any rules as a result.

[dee123]

....sorry I'm just having a wee giggle.....

[torrenova]

Here we go again !

All arguments on the basis of how much it cost to raise her / educate her etc. all fall down now. How much did it cost to educate the westerner and is the Thai family going to put up some money for that ? No, then get lost.

She is fairly long in the tooth and has presumably been deflowered by a number of people, none of whom wanted to marry her before. She is not the archetypal 20 year old virgin for sale to the highest bidder. She was living with the OP it seems as she took her clothes home.

Oh, by the way, 50% of this union is non Thai and thus there is no need to kow tow to cheap Thai money making schemes.

There has been no mention of gold by the OP which I find strange. Usually a request for non returnable sinsot is accompanied by ridiculous requests for gold for the bride, her mother, the dogs and ducks etc. At Bt15k per baht that is no small change these days.

Who is getting the wedding envelopes and who is paying for the wedding ? All this needs to be sorted out. If the OP is supposed to pay but the family keeps the wedding cash then its a scam 100%.

I get the feeling that the OP is naive. The GF says she has bargained them down to 400k but there is no mention of what ludicrous amounts they initially wanted or whether they wanted to keep all of it !

I agree that the OP needs to find out why they want to keep 200k and why it is 200k. If it is a long standing debt then I could loko favourably on it but without a valid reason, I would not pay or even consider it.

As for the posters saying that it is just 200k and if the OP can't afford that then he can't afford a wife and kids etc. I say go stick your head down a hole. If he does not have to give 200k then he has some cash to start off in life together as would be the case if all the sinsot was returned.

In my family the mother go the first daughter's dumb fuc_k husband to part with 500k or something and he regularly has money extorted. They know I'm not as clueless as him so they don't ask, even going so far once as to specifically tell me they would not need any. I just laughed at them and had another drink.

What has to be recognised and is often overlooked is the likely uplift in her quality of life with this western marriage. Surely there will be periodic cash gifts to the parents over the forthcoming years, even maintenance in old age perhaps. I counter that this amount is a far better use of any sinsot payment which is blown on new plasma tvs and bouts of whisky drinking.

Edited February 23, 2008 by torrenova

[jaiyenyen]

......LOOK everyone .".Creeling " the bridegroom is a much better idea than sinsod........I've really not got a problem with carrying rocks on my back for a few hours

Better than carrying a whole family for a lifetime

[chiang mai]

Either it's an affair of the heart or a financial transaction, decide.

[torrenova]

Either it's an affair of the heart or a financial transaction, decide.

Very good question. It should be the former but Thais often try to make you pay for the former with the latter. Western girls would tell their parents to eff off but Thais are many decades behind that level of thinking.

[Maigo6]

You certainly came to the right place to ask advice on The Sin Sot issue, 99% of the experts here married 21Year Old Virgins that came from incredibly rich Families and never paid one Baht.

I'm sure they can give you a few pointers on how it's done.

Edited February 23, 2008 by Maigo6

[torrenova]

You certainly came to the right place to ask advice on The Sin Sot issue, 99% of the experts here married 21Year Old Virgins that came from incredibly rich Families and never paid one Baht.

I'm sure they can give you a few pointers on how it's done.

There are also a fair few on here who did pay because they either:

a) thought they had to

B ) were p*** whipped into it

c) were thinking with their small head and not their big one

d) thought it was not such a lot of money and gold

e) insert your own daft reason for paying here

They now try to justify their payment to others who ask, often making jokes as above because they now realise their mistake.

I'm not saying never offer a helping hand or put on a show but don't get taken for a ride and certainly don't tell newbies that it is ok to be taken for a ride just because you did.

I would always counter such bluster with the western idealogy that the bride's family pays for everything except the rings, the honeymoon and the flowers I think. Let's see how the Thai family deals with that one. Oh, and in some cultures, the bride's family gives the groom cash to take her off their hands. Will they be following that custom ? Just remind them that this union is not 100% Thai and thus Thai rules do not apply 100% if at all. If they just jump up and leave the negotiating table then you know they are just out to screw you.

[Heng]

They also rant about it to no end, knowing that they can't change anything and they'll end up feeling all the more pissed about their past mistakes.

[torrenova]

Oh and remember, only about 1 in maybe 10,000 or even 100,000 will choose you over her parents so either you get her parents onside or you're losing her as well.

[Maigo6]

Oh and remember, only about 1 in maybe 10,000 or even 100,000 will choose you over her parents so either you get her parents onside or you're losing her as well.

Understandably so too, you seen the state of most farangs in Thailand ?

Advice to Thai Women :

Get what you can girls, cos the chances are he will leave you alone as soon as something else comes along, Farangs are notorious butterflys and by renting a house you are at their mercy, get a house, land and hopefully a car in your name girls, then he can do whatever he likes and you have not given him the best years of your lives for nothing!

Oh yea, and Sin Sot for mama too.

Edited February 23, 2008 by Maigo6

[Heng]

I think that's what a lot of guys can't cope with. For most a better life is at stake, and yet they still side with their (more often than not) peasant/villager parents and family.

[chiang mai]

Either it's an affair of the heart or a financial transaction, decide.

Very good question. It should be the former but Thais often try to make you pay for the former with the latter. Western girls would tell their parents to eff off but Thais are many decades behind that level of thinking.

No reason why western males can't help out their Thai female counterparts in this matter and do the "<deleted> off on their behalf, that should cause true motives to rise to the surface fairly quickly. Interestingly I have a similar dilemma but in the reverse order.

When I started to live with Ms. CM I said I don't want to get married right away, let's see how it works out and she said fine. In the four years that have passed since we first met I have provided various things for the family including building them a small house and taken care of various odds and ends - given my finacial circumstances, no great shakes (whatever that phrase means). I have done those things because I wanted to, not because I had to and the rewards of the relationship have repaid those equivalent monetary sums many times over.

But of late, Ms CM says she wants to have "the party" to cement the relationship in the eyes of her family, neighbors and friends. I accept that this is about Ms CM's culture and I'm OK to do that as long as the costs are within bounds, and they are. But what followed was a long and interesting debate about Sin Sod, to which I replied, I've paid my dues. Where we are at present is me maintaining my original line whilst Ms. CM is debating matters with the family as to this farangs unorthodox approach to the Thai way of life. I will happily provide this forum with progress in this matter but all can seriously trust that my line will not change and I'm sure you will all be keen to learn if the family line does, or, perhaps not. My underlying position on all of this is that I will be fair and reasonable but I will not be held to emotional or financial ransom and I expect the same in return. Stay tuned.

[LoveDaBlues]

Get what you can girls, cos the chances are he will leave you alone as soon as something else comes along, Farangs are notorious butterflys and by renting a house you are at their mercy, get a house, land and hopefully a car in your name girls, then he can do whatever he likes and you have not given him the best years of your lives for nothing!

Oh yea, and Sin Sot for mama too.

You been talking to my wife?

[LoveDaBlues]

Either it's an affair of the heart or a financial transaction, decide.

Very good question. It should be the former but Thais often try to make you pay for the former with the latter. Western girls would tell their parents to eff off but Thais are many decades behind that level of thinking.

No reason why western males can't help out their Thai female counterparts in this matter and do the "<deleted> off on their behalf, that should cause true motives to rise to the surface fairly quickly. Interestingly I have a similar dilemma but in the reverse order.

When I started to live with Ms. CM I said I don't want to get married right away, let's see how it works out and she said fine. In the four years that have passed since we first met I have provided various things for the family including building them a small house and taken care of various odds and ends - given my finacial circumstances, no great shakes (whatever that phrase means). I have done those things because I wanted to, not because I had to and the rewards of the relationship have repaid those equivalent monetary sums many times over.

But of late, Ms CM says she wants to have "the party" to cement the relationship in the eyes of her family, neighbors and friends. I accept that this is about Ms CM's culture and I'm OK to do that as long as the costs are within bounds, and they are. But what followed was a long and interesting debate about Sin Sod, to which I replied, I've paid my dues. Where we are at present is me maintaining my original line whilst Ms. CM is debating matters with the family as to this farangs unorthodox approach to the Thai way of life. I will happily provide this forum with progress in this matter but all can seriously trust that my line will not change and I'm sure you will all be keen to learn if the family line does, or, perhaps not. My underlying position on all of this is that I will be fair and reasonable but I will not be held to emotional or financial ransom and I expect the same in return. Stay tuned.

After building a house for them if they want non-returnable sinsod then you're being screwed.

[dsys]

OP may I suggest a solution:

UK custom - bride's father pays for the wedding

Thai custom - sin sod.

Explain to the inlaws to be that you will pay sin sod if they respect your customs and pay for the wedding. Agree before hand that you will display money to a given figure and allow them to keep the cost of the wedding. As most guests will also deposit gifts of cash at the wedding they should be quite happy with this arrangement.

In effect you will be paying for your own wedding but should get away with less than 200k I would have thought.

Respect of culture goes both ways, if you are having issues on this you'll be in hel_l in a few years when the kids come along.

[torrenova]

Either it's an affair of the heart or a financial transaction, decide.

Very good question. It should be the former but Thais often try to make you pay for the former with the latter. Western girls would tell their parents to eff off but Thais are many decades behind that level of thinking.

No reason why western males can't help out their Thai female counterparts in this matter and do the "<deleted> off on their behalf, that should cause true motives to rise to the surface fairly quickly. Interestingly I have a similar dilemma but in the reverse order.

When I started to live with Ms. CM I said I don't want to get married right away, let's see how it works out and she said fine. In the four years that have passed since we first met I have provided various things for the family including building them a small house and taken care of various odds and ends - given my finacial circumstances, no great shakes (whatever that phrase means). I have done those things because I wanted to, not because I had to and the rewards of the relationship have repaid those equivalent monetary sums many times over.

But of late, Ms CM says she wants to have "the party" to cement the relationship in the eyes of her family, neighbors and friends. I accept that this is about Ms CM's culture and I'm OK to do that as long as the costs are within bounds, and they are. But what followed was a long and interesting debate about Sin Sod, to which I replied, I've paid my dues. Where we are at present is me maintaining my original line whilst Ms. CM is debating matters with the family as to this farangs unorthodox approach to the Thai way of life. I will happily provide this forum with progress in this matter but all can seriously trust that my line will not change and I'm sure you will all be keen to learn if the family line does, or, perhaps not. My underlying position on all of this is that I will be fair and reasonable but I will not be held to emotional or financial ransom and I expect the same in return. Stay tuned.

I think you have a very valid argument as they have had a number of years to see how you have taken care of their daughter and themselves. If they cannot see this and do not understand that it is likely to continue then they are dumb and greedy if they want sinsot.

I have heard that families sometimes get into debt which they cannot service in the expectation that their daughter's husband to be will pay it off. This can lead to arranged or forced marriages. It is also 100% true that they deliberately over extended themselves and knew that they had no means to finance the debt. They will most likely re-offend as well.

If the sinsot was something like the payment for a younger sibling to attend university over a period of years then one could argue that the fees will be paid and an allowance provided over a certain time if the groom agrees. I don't look at this as sinsot but as family assistance and that would be normal anywhere. Sinsot to me is a grasping handout of cash which they attribute to the selling of their daughter.

[JSixpack]

Stickman didn't write "Why I Never Married A Thai." Moreover, it is one of the best commentaries on Thai women ever written by a farang anyway.

I agreed with the author on two things that he said. One was, "I still have much to learn about Thailand and Thai culture." The other was where he said he had a "very narrow Calvinist/Puritanist view of the world." Otherwise, the whole article can be summed up as the author's refusal to marry any woman who doesn't share his Western values.

Suggest you take an interpretive reading course if you can find one.

No, in numerous cases, the author observes, Thais don't follow their own values when it may be of selfish benefit. On a number of issues, Thais won't meet Westerners halfway and show commensurate respect for Western culture--but why shouldn't they be expected to do so? And then on some issues, there is just a basic incompatibility. For example, he notes that Thai women typically expect to stop having sex at age 40. Most Western guys here really cannot share that particular value. Of course, there are countless exceptions, but I've observed that Thai women do tend to take much less interest in their husbands at around age 40. As for the Calvinist view, many posts here indicate that a high percentage of our members share that view themselves and intend to keep it. And well they should, for otherwise their bank accounts will be shortly emptied by Thai familes and, given there will be no subsequent gratitude, an empty bank account will spell the end of their marriages or future marriage prospects. Soft hearted (and soft headed) farang are quickly taken advantage of. Do you share that Thai value? Why should a victim offer his consent?

That article, though it of course makes only general if well-founded observations, should be required reading for any Western man contemplating marriage with a Thai. Having known a number of Thai women quite well over the years, able to speak basic Thai, I find that what he says is pretty astute, whether you want to believe it or not. As my condo building is also full of Western men chasing, dating, or married to Thai women, I'm blessed with ample opportunity to observe the interaction and foolishness. Ah, the stories . . . .

Edited February 23, 2008 by JSixpack

[nidge]

If you pay, you'll pay for ever.

Really? Are you sure? I know one farang who paid 500,000 sin sod, was given back 100,000 when he bought a house and the family has never asked him for another baht. In fact sometimes when he offers his mother in law money she refuses saying she does not need it.

The other sister in the family married a thai and he paid 300,000.

Not all thai families are gold diggers and not all farangs are as tight as ducks a55holes.

......QUACK !! ......P.S. Hi Nidge , I think my missus met with your missus recently in tesco......but we now back in U.K . Hope all goes well for you,

Tescos, the most happening place in the city When are you coming back? I just quit my job so i may be in Chaiyaphum for a few months now.

[Eric1949]

It seems there are an endless line of folks around here who are too embarrassed to say to the gal AND parents if possible "well, the issue is my Thai friends who have gotten married have all gotten the sin sod returned to the couple... so I'm unclear why you intend to keep a portion/all of it." Now, I've actually heard of a few Thais not having their sin sods returned, but those were typically arranged marriages where the bride and groom were like 20-40 years apart age wise... but for regular plain jane weddings; two people of similar age and means, there was never any question of it being returned (and in fact in quite a few cases, I loaned the funds out to put on the tray... so I know it was returned).

This is a good post. I think for the very poor in Issan it's more likely to be the norm where the money is kept and not returned. I've seen sinsod as low as 60K(VERY poor families involved); I suspect the money was kept but no way to be sure.

Re the poor in Issan. Poor is a relative term. I have yet to see Issan folk go without their cigs and Thai whisky. Yes compared to me, they are poor, but I have western living standards, which cost more. I am poor compared to Toxin Chinorwhatever, or even other farangs on pensions over Baht50000/month.

You cannot talk about customs and cultures, these change with time.

[blizzard]

i thinkpoor is poor same same the world over. one can spot poor. and y u guys want to get involved with poor thais is boggling of the mind. jeezuz thais dont want em.

[chiang mai]

Either it's an affair of the heart or a financial transaction, decide.

Very good question. It should be the former but Thais often try to make you pay for the former with the latter. Western girls would tell their parents to eff off but Thais are many decades behind that level of thinking.

No reason why western males can't help out their Thai female counterparts in this matter and do the "<deleted> off on their behalf, that should cause true motives to rise to the surface fairly quickly. Interestingly I have a similar dilemma but in the reverse order.

When I started to live with Ms. CM I said I don't want to get married right away, let's see how it works out and she said fine. In the four years that have passed since we first met I have provided various things for the family including building them a small house and taken care of various odds and ends - given my finacial circumstances, no great shakes (whatever that phrase means). I have done those things because I wanted to, not because I had to and the rewards of the relationship have repaid those equivalent monetary sums many times over.

But of late, Ms CM says she wants to have "the party" to cement the relationship in the eyes of her family, neighbors and friends. I accept that this is about Ms CM's culture and I'm OK to do that as long as the costs are within bounds, and they are. But what followed was a long and interesting debate about Sin Sod, to which I replied, I've paid my dues. Where we are at present is me maintaining my original line whilst Ms. CM is debating matters with the family as to this farangs unorthodox approach to the Thai way of life. I will happily provide this forum with progress in this matter but all can seriously trust that my line will not change and I'm sure you will all be keen to learn if the family line does, or, perhaps not. My underlying position on all of this is that I will be fair and reasonable but I will not be held to emotional or financial ransom and I expect the same in return. Stay tuned.

I think you have a very valid argument as they have had a number of years to see how you have taken care of their daughter and themselves. If they cannot see this and do not understand that it is likely to continue then they are dumb and greedy if they want sinsot.

I have heard that families sometimes get into debt which they cannot service in the expectation that their daughter's husband to be will pay it off. This can lead to arranged or forced marriages. It is also 100% true that they deliberately over extended themselves and knew that they had no means to finance the debt. They will most likely re-offend as well.

If the sinsot was something like the payment for a younger sibling to attend university over a period of years then one could argue that the fees will be paid and an allowance provided over a certain time if the groom agrees. I don't look at this as sinsot but as family assistance and that would be normal anywhere. Sinsot to me is a grasping handout of cash which they attribute to the selling of their daughter.

The issue of Sin Sod is all but closed in my case and we agree there will be nothing other than some show money that will be returned in full - I am being sworn to secrecy over this aspect and recognize that face is all important. The party has been costed at 100k baht and failure to adhere to either of those two cost issues will result in revised living arrangements. One further issue that is being discussed is the need for Ms CM to have a present in the form of gold for all to see. My counter offer is likely to be that I will finish the bits and pieces around the house that still need doing instead.

All of this reaffirms to me that Thai's can be reasonable about things but that they are serial thinkers and unlike many people from the West fail to look at the big picture or in context. Mention wedding and the first thought is Sin Sod - but remind them they are living in the Sin Sod currently and a light bulb flashes on.

[Heng]

It's all fun, games, and cultural differences until you realize you can't afford it. Then it's bad bad bad culture! Bad!

Edited February 24, 2008 by Heng

[Heng]

i thinkpoor is poor same same the world over. one can spot poor. and y u guys want to get involved with poor thais is boggling of the mind. jeezuz thais dont want em.

...says the guy posting from back home?

[mrt273nva]

farang keeneow! just kidding. I've been married for about 2 years now and I am hoping to have money to have a wedding, but so far it hasn't be required of me because my wife's family knows that I don't have the funds. Many of you guys are saying that sin sod is a horrible scam and try everything in your powers to avoid it. I think of it as helping my extended family. If things went terribly wrong I know that my extended family on my wifes side is there for me. They are there for me now. Too many farangs have this "us and them" attitude that alienates themselves from common humanity. You know if you are getting ripped off or not. If you are getting scammed then you need to ask yourself if it is something worth doing for the one that you love (she might not love you though). If there is genuine love between both partners then the issue of sin sod i doubt would be much of an problem.

[Maigo6]

It's all fun, games, and cultural differences until you realize you can't afford it. Then it's bad bad bad culture! Bad!

lol, too true Heng.

Farangs wanna take all things in Thailand that are beneficial to them, and scoff at anything that isn't.

I think the not being able to afford it theme is also right.

Most guys I know with a few bob in the bank have a happy life in Thailand, the guys on a shoestring budget live not so well and moan a lot.

I know a guy who is under 50, can't get a visa for long term in Asia, so he goes back to his home country and gets one, he can afford to, so he does that. Other guys I know can't afford it and do nothing but complain how unfair life in Thailand is!

Edited February 24, 2008 by Maigo6

[way2muchcoffee]

My story.

My wife is from an ultra-poor family. I was not directly asked to, and have paid no sin-sod. Regarding the marriage, I don't drink and so don't feel the need to buy a bunch of whiskey for the wedding. I offered a dry wedding with a suitable 'feast' as an alternative, something a few of my wife's friends have done. This plan was rejected. So there was no celebration.

Now I am not just cheap and unsympathetic. I have helped out every member of the extended family financially at one time or another over the past 6 years. I provide a monthly stipend to the aging grandmother, while the wife's uncles, aunts, and cousins send very little, and even then they do so sporadically.

I have paid back loans for the family where the land deed was used as collateral. I have gifted gold to the grandmother. I have paid to add on to the family house, doubling the size. I purchased 2 rai of land for my wife. I offered to take custody and pay for the education of the youngest orphaned cousin (now ten years old). I fully intend to keep supporting the aging grandmother, and to offer limited help in emergency situations to the extended family. This is more than enough in my opinion. The wife and I have found a middle ground that works pretty well. She is not entirely happy with the arrangement, but neither am I. The money that goes to the family comes directly out of the money that would go into my retirement. The compromise situation is the best way for us.

Oh and by the way - I take exception to the 'Farangs are notorious butterflies' comment. It seems more appropriate to apply this to Thai men than to western men, though men are men, and there are unfaithful in any group. I can honestly say that I have not strayed even once in the 6 years we have been together.

Edited February 24, 2008 by way2muchcoffee

[camerata]

Suggest you take an interpretive reading course if you can find one.

I understood the article and where the author is coming from just fine. The problem is he doesn't seem to have researched the material. It's just his personal observations (sometimes accurate, sometimes not) with conclusions drawn from the perspective of Western culture, which he clearly thinks is superior. He mentions some problems being related to face, but fails to understand how important face is in Thai culture (and why). He expects Thais to change lifelong cultural traits simply because a Westerner presents them with "superior" logic.

On a number of issues, Thais won't meet Westerners halfway and show commensurate respect for Western culture--but why shouldn't they be expected to do so?

Well, the author of this article seems to expect Thais to conform to his culture rather than just show respect for it.

And then on some issues, there is just a basic incompatibility. For example, he notes that Thai women typically expect to stop having sex at age 40.

I don't think he understands that the publicly stated perception of sex in middle age and the reality are two different things. I reckon urban middle-class, middle-aged females in 2008 would laugh at the idea that they are supposed to have stopped having sex around 40.

Here's a guy who thinks the word farang is pejorative (even though he uses it himself) and that Thai women don't want farang to speak Thai so they can talk about us behind our backs. That might apply to BGs, but not in general, in my experience of 25 years in-country.

The bottom line is that if we choose to live in a foreign culture, life in general and marriage in particular means we'll have to make some major compromises and accommodate that culture - otherwise what are we doing here? The author of the article isn't prepared to do that. That's probably why the two or three Thai "gals" that met his high standards were not interested in him.