Ordaining For A Week

[garro]

Many people in my village are ordaining for the week next month and they want me to join them. I am married and would have thought that this would preclude this. According to the local temple though it is fine to temporarily ordained and just get the marriage blessed again afterwards. Is this correct?

I originally came to Thailand with the intentions of ordaining. Life happedned though and now I'm married with a wife and child and very happy. This seems like a nice opportunity and a chance to make merit for my in-laws. None of their sons ordained for them in the past.

I realise that there would probably not be much benefit in ordaining for such a short period but it would be an experience. I have spent a bit of time in temples before on meditation retreats and this would show me a different side of things.

What do others think?

[chownah]

It is common practice to do this....it's up to you.....

Chownah

[AYJAYDEE]

Many people in my village are ordaining for the week next month and they want me to join them. I am married and would have thought that this would preclude this. According to the local temple though it is fine to temporarily ordained and just get the marriage blessed again afterwards. Is this correct?

I originally came to Thailand with the intentions of ordaining. Life happedned though and now I'm married with a wife and child and very happy. This seems like a nice opportunity and a chance to make merit for my in-laws. None of their sons ordained for them in the past.

I realise that there would probably not be much benefit in ordaining for such a short period but it would be an experience. I have spent a bit of time in temples before on meditation retreats and this would show me a different side of things.

What do others think?

there may be some tremendoud benefits and you wont know unless you try. go for it. it certainly cant do you any harm.

[sabaijai]

Go for it, Garro.

[Brucenkhamen]

Many people in my village are ordaining for the week next month and they want me to join them. I am married and would have thought that this would preclude this. According to the local temple though it is fine to temporarily ordained and just get the marriage blessed again afterwards. Is this correct?

I originally came to Thailand with the intentions of ordaining. Life happedned though and now I'm married with a wife and child and very happy. This seems like a nice opportunity and a chance to make merit for my in-laws. None of their sons ordained for them in the past.

I realise that there would probably not be much benefit in ordaining for such a short period but it would be an experience. I have spent a bit of time in temples before on meditation retreats and this would show me a different side of things.

What do others think?

Personally I think temporary ordinations as short as this make a mockery of the monkhood.

I ordained for 3 months and I think that is the absolute minimum, I'm not even comfortable that 3 months was lonng enough, in the Ajahn Chah lineage they ask for a 5 year commitment. I'm sure Thai Buddhism would be in a much healthier state if being a monk was seen as more of a long term vocation than a weeks vacation.

Sorry to be such a scrooge.

You've done retreats before and as you say you can't expect much benefit from a week at the wat. I would think the chances of your being able to ordain for a week at a wat that has strong vinaya or meditation practice is slim though.

But if you want to do it then up to you, you'll be a local hero for at least a week and probably longer.

If I were you and my in-laws were encouraging me to do this so they can get more merit I'd insist that it must be 3 months minimum at a forest wat with a reputation for good vinaya, they'll get more merit and you'll get a decent break and a good retreat.

My understanding is any married man can ordain, even permanantly, after all the Buddha did it. I think there is an expectation that the spouse must give her blessing. I havn't heard about blessing the marriage afterwards but what the heck as long as they don't expect another sinsod it might be nice.

Edited February 23, 2008 by Brucenkhamen

[garro]

Many people in my village are ordaining for the week next month and they want me to join them. I am married and would have thought that this would preclude this. According to the local temple though it is fine to temporarily ordained and just get the marriage blessed again afterwards. Is this correct?

I originally came to Thailand with the intentions of ordaining. Life happedned though and now I'm married with a wife and child and very happy. This seems like a nice opportunity and a chance to make merit for my in-laws. None of their sons ordained for them in the past.

I realise that there would probably not be much benefit in ordaining for such a short period but it would be an experience. I have spent a bit of time in temples before on meditation retreats and this would show me a different side of things.

What do others think?

Personally I think temporary ordinations as short as this make a mockery of the monkhood.

I ordained for 3 months and I think that is the absolute minimum, I'm not even comfortable that 3 months was lonng enough, in the Ajahn Chah lineage they ask for a 5 year commitment. I'm sure Thai Buddhism would be in a much healthier state if being a monk was seen as more of a long term vocation than a weeks vacation.

Sorry to be such a scrooge.

You've done retreats before and as you say you can't expect much benefit from a week at the wat. I would think the chances of your being able to ordain for a week at a wat that has strong vinaya or meditation practice is slim though.

But if you want to do it then up to you, you'll be a local hero for at least a week and probably longer.

If I were you and my in-laws were encouraging me to do this so they can get more merit I'd insist that it must be 3 months minimum at a forest wat with a reputation for good vinaya, they'll get more merit and you'll get a decent break and a good retreat.

My understanding is any married man can ordain, even permanantly, after all the Buddha did it. I think there is an expectation that the spouse must give her blessing. I havn't heard about blessing the marriage afterwards but what the heck as long as they don't expect another sinsod it might be nice.

I understand your criticisms and this was the reason why I posted. My son was born about six months and this has meant my meditaion practice has suffered. I thought a week at the local temple would be a nice way to return. Ideally of course a meditation retreat would be better, but I don't have the time at the moment as most of these retreats last longer than a week and there are none nearby.

I will be leaving our village within the next couple of months in order to work in the city. I know the local monk well and thought this a good way to support the local temple. Especially as so many in the village are doing likewise. If it brings a little happiness to my in-laws then that will be a bonus. My in-laws haven't encouraged me either way as they don't know anything about my intentions yet.

I do intend to ordain for a longer period at some point, but at the moment I am too tied up in lay concerns.

The fact that my ordination might be considered a mockery does concern me though.

Edited February 23, 2008 by garro

[Brucenkhamen]

The fact that my ordination might be considered a mockery does concern me though.

My views may be a bit strong on this, I haven't heard others put it so strongly, so I wouldn't say it was a fact.

You have to ask yourself what do you see the purpose of the monkhood is, and follow your own concience.

[RueFang]

This is a fantastic opportunity for you Garro, so definitely go for it. You will not be seen as a mockery by any Thais that's for sure. How many Thais in the village only get ordained for less then 2 weeks? Countless, and I would bet that most of these only do it for the money from the party or for the face it gives their parents, whereas you are doing it for sincere reasons in the hope that it will refocus your meditation. Even a week stay in a temple will give you time enough to yourself to do this as you are not distracted by your family or day to day chores, so even though it's not a perfect retreat of 'minimum 3 months', you're working with what you've got and the time you can, so go for it! You'll regret it if you don't and life's too short for regrets!

[chutai]

To be honest, I do know of a British born monk in Lampang who refuses to take like foreigners, who ordain temporarily, at all seriously. But we know of your sincerity and situation, garro.

I personally wouldn't discount any experience - however short - but condusive towards your ultimate happiness. Even although I might suggest another way to fulfill your sincere desire to attain Buddhahood.

[chownah]

Maybe to clarify how a short term ordination might be viewed as a mockery I will point out that according to Theravada Scriptures (at least what I have read and my interpretation of them) when someone enters into the monkhood what they are doing is leaving their family and fiends and possessions behind and going into homelessness......it is considered that their way of life is changed forever in a fundamental and radical way....it is a committment to giving up attachments to worldly things because this is seen as the path to liberation and that all else is to be removed except for that which leads one toward that liberation......it is not a way to get a tune up to clear your mind for better functioning within society...nor is it a way to achieve a higher rank in your community...on the contrary it is giving up all rank in the community of lay people.......so.......to ordain for a short period (anything less than for life) is somewhat of a lessened committment obviously.

But in this society they do have short term ordinations and it is probably better to just think of them as a different sort of thing entirely and to accept them as an experience which has the potential for helping someone in their spiritual growth and along the Path....these short term ordinations are probably better thought of as retreats perhaps.

Chownah

Edited February 23, 2008 by chownah

[Brucenkhamen]

Maybe to clarify how a short term ordination might be viewed as a mockery I will point out that according to Theravada Scriptures (at least what I have read and my interpretation of them) when someone enters into the monkhood what they are doing is leaving their family and fiends and possessions behind and going into homelessness......it is considered that their way of life is changed forever in a fundamental and radical way....it is a committment to giving up attachments to worldly things because this is seen as the path to liberation and that all else is to be removed except for that which leads one toward that liberation......it is not a way to get a tune up to clear your mind for better functioning within society...nor is it a way to achieve a higher rank in your community...on the contrary it is giving up all rank in the community of lay people.......so.......to ordain for a short period (anything less than for life) is somewhat of a lessened committment obviously.

But in this society they do have short term ordinations and it is probably better to just think of them as a different sort of thing entirely and to accept them as an experience which has the potential for helping someone in their spiritual growth and along the Path....these short term ordinations are probably better thought of as retreats perhaps.

Chownah

Your first paragraph describes very well what I see as the ideal of what a monk should be, thank you Chownah.

As you say temporary ordinations are the norm around here though, but what bothers me is it's for the wrong reasons. There are plenty of options for a layperson to go to a meditation centre for a week of intensive practice, so in an ideal world it would be better to preseve the monkhood for real monks.

My 3 month ordination was a great experience for me and I used the time well, but it fell well short of the ideal you describe, so I see it as quite a big compromise.

If garro belives good things will come out of his 1 week then I think he should go for it, but if it were me I wouldn't want my actions to be saying to the local villagers that a 1 week ordination is ok.

Just a little bugbear of mine.

[sabaijai]

Before he passed away, I was briefly a student of Taungpulu Sayadaw, who, when asked about the right length for ordination, always replied 'One day of wholesome action in robes is better than a 100 immoral lives' or something to that effect. I believed Taungpulu Sayadaw to have been an arahant, thought I have no way of knowing for sure, and his conviction on this matter was very convincing to me.

At any rate, that view would represent the opposite extreme I suppose.

I do know of Thais and foreigners who have ordained for as little as a month, for whom the time spent in robes provided a lifelong inspiration for continued practice as a layperson.

In the end, I suppose it all depends on what you do with your time in robes.

[chutai]

In the end, I suppose it all depends on what you do with your time in robes.

I guess it's like someone mentioned about treating the whole thing as a retreat , although to be frank I could understand a week or two of intense meditation more. But really we can reveal our Buddhahood just as we are in our ordinary lives and don't need to seperate ourselves to understand the true entity of life.

[seonai]

Being in robes gives you more time to focuss on meditation and not worry about lay/family activities as much

[Brucenkhamen]

Being in robes gives you more time to focuss on meditation and not worry about lay/family activities as much

Unfortunately not true, the whole week will be spent getting used to the rules, procedures, chants and putting on your robes etc, the time would be much better spent as a layman at a meditation centre. Garro will be lucky to get as much meditation time as he could at home.

It took me a month to learn how to put on my robes correctly without assistance, mind you it would have helped if they weren't far too big for me.

[Brucenkhamen]

I do know of Thais and foreigners who have ordained for as little as a month, for whom the time spent in robes provided a lifelong inspiration for continued practice as a layperson.

Who's knows, if they had spent this time as a layman in a meditation centre doing intensive practice they may well have come away even more inspired.

I can understand it with Thai's, in their culture lay practice is not valued like monk practice is, but westerners have more options that just putting on robes and living down at the local Wat Baan for a week or so.

[chutai]

I can understand it with Thai's, in their culture lay practice is not valued like monk practice is...

With respect and in the interest of clarity. The emphasis on monasticism over lay practice has far deeper roots than being culturally relative to only Thai society. It is one reason for the schism that occured between the Theravada and Mahasanghika in early Buddhism. Whereas the Theravada lineage stressed stressed monasticism and withdrawal from ordinary life , the monks of Mahasanghika emphasized the importance of work amongst the masses ; even though that might mean sacrificing ones own chances of attaining enlightenment. The latter outlook led to Mahayana Buddhism in time, and the major rift between the two sects or traditions.

But of course this is all merely different decorations on the cake containing the same essential ingredients. Although it's misleading to assume specificity to Thailand when the origins can be traced to elsewhere.

But of course in the true spirit of tolerance and respect for human life that characterizes Buddhism, although the Theravada and Mahasanghika groups parted company after the Second Council, neither made any attempts to harass each other, much less did they resort to the violence as so often described to be the case in Western religious history.

Although today we not only witness a convergence between the two traditions in some areas, as one reforms somewhat. Nevertheless, it could be argued that the stress on ordination over laity remains a somewhat conservative orthodoxy which still reflects more significant dharmic implications.

[Brucenkhamen]

I can understand it with Thai's, in their culture lay practice is not valued like monk practice is...

With respect and in the interest of clarity. The emphasis on monasticism over lay practice has far deeper roots than being culturally relative to only Thai society. It is one reason for the schism that occured between the Theravada and Mahasanghika in early Buddhism. Whereas the Theravada lineage stressed stressed monasticism and withdrawal from ordinary life ,

This may be true, but I was comparing Thailand with other Theravadin countries, Burma, Sri Lanka and the West.

In Burma it is not uncommon for lay people to spend their holidays doing retreats at meditation centres.

In Sri Lanka there is a stronger empasis on lay practice, and the Anagarika is relatively more important, this I think is partly due to the monkhood being seen more as a lifetime vocation.

In the West of course we do a lot of meditation retreats.

Thai culture doesn't really value the above so much, the emphasis is more on becoming a monk, for a while, so that somebody gets some merit.

[fabianfred]

I have been a buddhist for over 30 years......but only studied seriously since I first came to thailand 20 years ago.....

I have often felt i would like to become a monk....but my path took me into a marriage, where i have a wonderful wife and two kids....my wife is also a sincere buddhist and we have been together and seperately on retreats to wat rampoeng ,chiangmai...she know that one day when my duties are finished i would like to ordain for the rest of my life....whether that will ever happen or not....who knows?

in january 2006 our town (Fang, Chiangmai) decided to have a mass ordination for a week and all the local temples invited those who wanted to ordain.....hoping to get 60 monks to offer their respects to the King of thailand for his 60 years of reign....they got 49 and I was one of them.....

it was hosted by the main meditation temple here in Fang and the abbot is also the district head monk......I had to get permission from my wife to ordain...(which she readily gave...as long as it was only for a week) ..... and I wanted the opportunity to see buddhism from the inside looking out...instead of the usual view we have ...from the outside looking in...so to speak

we were ordained as naak in the white clothes and shaved the heads the day before the main ceremony, and then the next day were ordained as novices and then monks right after that..... I was delighted to find we were also to be 'Tudong' monks....and we were kitted out with the umbrella and mosquito net and carrying sack for our two sets of robes etc.

the day after the ordination we walked to a hilltop temple and camped in their grounds for three nights.....then walked to a forest temple (a temple of the Ajarn Chah tradition with links to Wat Pah pong in Ubon ratchathani) where we camped for another three nights....

I loved the morning alms round best of all..... a wonderful experience

the days were spent having instruction on meditation and other dhamma talks

it probably helps that my Thai is very good and I've been reading dhamma books in Thai for years and each 'rains retreat' I go to stay overnight in the temple with the 'old' men and women who wear white and chant and meditate together each buddha day

altogether a wonderful experience...which I will always cherish....even if I never get another opportunity....I have at least ordained for a week...better than never

it was a full and proper ordination......those who did not want to disrobe at the end could stay on as long as they liked....some older men decided to remain forever...and some not so old

[garro]

I have been a buddhist for over 30 years......but only studied seriously since I first came to thailand 20 years ago.....

I have often felt i would like to become a monk....but my path took me into a marriage, where i have a wonderful wife and two kids....my wife is also a sincere buddhist and we have been together and seperately on retreats to wat rampoeng ,chiangmai...she know that one day when my duties are finished i would like to ordain for the rest of my life....whether that will ever happen or not....who knows?

in january 2006 our town (Fang, Chiangmai) decided to have a mass ordination for a week and all the local temples invited those who wanted to ordain.....hoping to get 60 monks to offer their respects to the King of thailand for his 60 years of reign....they got 49 and I was one of them.....

it was hosted by the main meditation temple here in Fang and the abbot is also the district head monk......I had to get permission from my wife to ordain...(which she readily gave...as long as it was only for a week) ..... and I wanted the opportunity to see buddhism from the inside looking out...instead of the usual view we have ...from the outside looking in...so to speak

we were ordained as naak in the white clothes and shaved the heads the day before the main ceremony, and then the next day were ordained as novices and then monks right after that..... I was delighted to find we were also to be 'Tudong' monks....and we were kitted out with the umbrella and mosquito net and carrying sack for our two sets of robes etc.

the day after the ordination we walked to a hilltop temple and camped in their grounds for three nights.....then walked to a forest temple (a temple of the Ajarn Chah tradition with links to Wat Pah pong in Ubon ratchathani) where we camped for another three nights....

I loved the morning alms round best of all..... a wonderful experience

the days were spent having instruction on meditation and other dhamma talks

it probably helps that my Thai is very good and I've been reading dhamma books in Thai for years and each 'rains retreat' I go to stay overnight in the temple with the 'old' men and women who wear white and chant and meditate together each buddha day

altogether a wonderful experience...which I will always cherish....even if I never get another opportunity....I have at least ordained for a week...better than never

it was a full and proper ordination......those who did not want to disrobe at the end could stay on as long as they liked....some older men decided to remain forever...and some not so old

Wonderful post fabianfred. I have actually decided to not ordain this time. I have too much going on in my life as I am about to move house and start a new job. I fear that I would spend the week distracted. I will do it at another point in my life.

My new job is taking me to live near Wat Thamkrabok - which is a temple that saved my life. Maybe in a year or two my wife will agree to me ordaining there for a short while. I know that they like to go on thudong in Jan/Feb and that many people ordain for this.

[sabaijai]

I have been a buddhist for over 30 years......but only studied seriously since I first came to thailand 20 years ago.....

I have often felt i would like to become a monk....but my path took me into a marriage, where i have a wonderful wife and two kids....my wife is also a sincere buddhist and we have been together and seperately on retreats to wat rampoeng ,chiangmai...she know that one day when my duties are finished i would like to ordain for the rest of my life....whether that will ever happen or not....who knows?

in january 2006 our town (Fang, Chiangmai) decided to have a mass ordination for a week and all the local temples invited those who wanted to ordain.....hoping to get 60 monks to offer their respects to the King of thailand for his 60 years of reign....they got 49 and I was one of them.....

it was hosted by the main meditation temple here in Fang and the abbot is also the district head monk......I had to get permission from my wife to ordain...(which she readily gave...as long as it was only for a week) ..... and I wanted the opportunity to see buddhism from the inside looking out...instead of the usual view we have ...from the outside looking in...so to speak

we were ordained as naak in the white clothes and shaved the heads the day before the main ceremony, and then the next day were ordained as novices and then monks right after that..... I was delighted to find we were also to be 'Tudong' monks....and we were kitted out with the umbrella and mosquito net and carrying sack for our two sets of robes etc.

the day after the ordination we walked to a hilltop temple and camped in their grounds for three nights.....then walked to a forest temple (a temple of the Ajarn Chah tradition with links to Wat Pah pong in Ubon ratchathani) where we camped for another three nights....

I loved the morning alms round best of all..... a wonderful experience

the days were spent having instruction on meditation and other dhamma talks

it probably helps that my Thai is very good and I've been reading dhamma books in Thai for years and each 'rains retreat' I go to stay overnight in the temple with the 'old' men and women who wear white and chant and meditate together each buddha day

altogether a wonderful experience...which I will always cherish....even if I never get another opportunity....I have at least ordained for a week...better than never

it was a full and proper ordination......those who did not want to disrobe at the end could stay on as long as they liked....some older men decided to remain forever...and some not so old

What was the forest temple in the tradition of Aj Chah?

[fabianfred]

What was the forest temple in the tradition of Aj Chah?

Wat Mae Jai Sai ( Wat Thammapadipa)...here in Fang.....beside the ring road/bypass

[sabaijai]

What was the forest temple in the tradition of Aj Chah?

Wat Mae Jai Sai ( Wat Thammapadipa)...here in Fang.....beside the ring road/bypass

thanks