Samak Sundaravej was elected

[jumnien]

First, to bring to a referendum is a good thing. The previous so-called referendum took place with the Thai populace faced with a gun against its head held by the same military that slaughtered so many students in the last coup. The coup-referendum passed as did the recent coup-referendum in Myanmar, so what?

Second, other that self-appointed junta-backed committees who is accusing Thaksin of anything?

Which gun on which head??? hahahaha

Typical militarist laughing about the dead bodies of students in the coup of 1992. I'm sure you are just drooling to see more blood of innocents spilled. Really quite sad.

[h90]

First, to bring to a referendum is a good thing. The previous so-called referendum took place with the Thai populace faced with a gun against its head held by the same military that slaughtered so many students in the last coup. The coup-referendum passed as did the recent coup-referendum in Myanmar, so what?

Second, other that self-appointed junta-backed committees who is accusing Thaksin of anything?

Which gun on which head??? hahahaha

Typical militarist laughing about the dead bodies of students in the coup of 1992. I'm sure you are just drooling to see more blood of innocents spilled. Really quite sad.

check the calender, we don't have 1992, all are different people. Or do you slap the next German tourist because he killed Jews? thats 16 years ago and complete different people.

[jumnien]

I have to apologize. I forgot that in 1993 the Thai Army generals were replaced with nurses, social workers and kindergarten teachers who just want the best for the Thai people and have no personal agenda. How silly of me!

[h90]

I have to apologize. I forgot that in 1993 the Thai Army generals were replaced with nurses, social workers and kindergarten teachers who just want the best for the Thai people and have no personal agenda. How silly of me!

I complete agree with the last sentence of your nonsense.

[plachon]

I have to apologize. I forgot that in 1993 the Thai Army generals were replaced with nurses, social workers and kindergarten teachers who just want the best for the Thai people and have no personal agenda. How silly of me!

If your posts weren't so nonsensical you might have a better chance of making yourself understood. As it is, they seem to be totally lacking any weight, substance and credibility, as you absolutely fail to back up your assertions with reference to facts or provable links. Thus, I'm tempted to think your pathetic attempts at sarcasm are actually an improvement on your normal pro-Toxin, anti-military drivel.

Really, can't you do any better than this?

[marshbags]

First, to bring to a referendum is a good thing. The previous so-called referendum took place with the Thai populace faced with a gun against its head held by the same military that slaughtered so many students in the last coup. The coup-referendum passed as did the recent coup-referendum in Myanmar, so what?

Second, other that self-appointed junta-backed committees who is accusing Thaksin of anything?

How much longer are you going to stay in denial ???

Unless the PPP and their unprincipled members of the coalition start acting in a responsible way that compliments their positions regarding why the are in power, and who,s interests they are supposed to be elected for

They need to address the important issues, take care of the problems that are continuously being ignored and start looking after the citizens of Thailand instead of themselves and their sponsors interests.

Otherwise, sadly there will be much blood spilled and fighting that can only be placed on the present governments shoulders, along with the responsibility of starting it all with their much publicised, selfish, self interests and obvious agenda.

As for the many accusations listed against Thaksin, let an unbiased court of elected officials with proven ability and integrity, decide wether he is guilty or innocent of the charges against him.

The government need to let the respected academics of the country put forward names for this purpose and NOT put their own in positions to benefit their unlawful propositions and objectives.

If you think that only the committee set up to investigate what are damning reports on corruption not only on him but many of his fellow TRT officials, you need to get out and about and get a reality check, to say the least.

IMHO as always.

marshbags

Edited May 26, 2008 by marshbags

[jumnien]

Giles Ji Ungpakorn

04 May 2008

Right-wing forces use the lèse majestè laws to stifle dissent, not preserve loyalty to the king

Once again we are seeing the extreme right in Thailand using lèse majesté, or the crime of injury to the royalty, as an excuse to encourage acts of violence against those who stand up for freedom and justice.

Thirty years ago, agitation by the extreme right through such media outlets as the Tank Corps radio station and Dao Sayam newspaper, resulted in the utmost barbarism at Thammasat University on October 6, 1976, when right-wing forces and the military set on students, hanging them, setting them afire and committing other acts of savagery. Therefore the recent swearing of an oath of allegiance to "Nation Religion and King" by the so-called People’s Alliance for Democracy at Thammasat is tantamount to spitting on the memories of those who died and suffered in the bloody events.

Most recently we have seen Manager, the media outlet of big businessman Sondhi Limtongkul, opening its web pages to right-wing thugs who want to encourage violence against Chotisak Onsoong, a young man who chose to think differently and not stand for the King's song in the cinema. Following this there have been threats of violence, also posted on Manager’s website, against Jittra Kotchadej, chairwoman of the Triumph textile workers union. Jittra’s supposed "crime" was to wear a T-shirt supporting Chotisak's freedom of expression.

In both cases, their addresses have been published by Manager, an action that is not only illegal in that it encourages violence against others, but is also a serious obstacle to basic rights and democracy. I call on everyone in the Peoples' Movement to condemn this despicable media outlet and its right-wing owner.

We should not be surprised at Manager’s behavior. After all they supported the September 19, 2006 coup that destroyed democracy and removed legitimacy from the Thai state. Sondhi Limtongkul has never been on the side of freedom, democracy or the Peoples' Movement. But the important question to ask is: will Somsak Kosaisuk, Pipop Tongchai, Somkiat Pongpaiboon and Suriyasai Takasila have enough basic democratic principles to come out and condemn Manager? Given their close alliance with Sondhi and his media empire, staying quiet would be the same as condoning these actions. I still hope that they will have some principles left, but my hopes are rapidly fading.

On May Day this year, Somsak Kosaisuk, who used to be someone I admired, made a statement on behalf of the Workers Solidarity Committee that workers should unite to fight the capitalists. I agree with his statement. But does Somsak oppose all capitalists? Or will he still build alliances with non-Thaksin ones? And in his so-called struggle against capitalism will he defend "Nation Religion and King," the slogan of the extreme right who are the sworn enemies and murderers of students, workers and farmers?

Pipop Tongchai had the unfortunate experience of seeing his bookshop burnt by right-wing thugs during the violence of 1976. Will he still maintain, as he did a few years ago at Chula, that he must continue to build an alliance with conservative monarchists?

Lèse majesté is an excuse to silence and use violence against those who think differently. But that is merely one of many reasons why the law should be abolished. The second reason arguing for abolition, as a matter of urgency, is that it is an authoritarian law of the type found in countries with absolute monarchies. No modern civilized and democratic nation in the world maintains such a law. If we are to have democracy we must have the right to express ourselves. There must be the right to criticise the monarchy.

Otherwise the monarch or members of the royal family can behave as they like without any accountability or transparency. Lèse majesté laws actually indicate that conservatives are afraid that if they allow criticism we shall see that many Thais have different opinions. The carefully constructed image of the monarchy will also face serious scrutiny. In other words, the conservatives are afraid of the truth.

If not, why not abolish lèse majesté? I am not afraid myself to face the fact that most Thais at present love and respect the King. Why are the ruling class so afraid? Or is it really about the need by factions of the elite, whether the military or the capitalists, to use lèse majesté to attack their opponents for their own narrow personal gain?

This is an important question that we must all ask. The 19th September coup claimed royal legitimacy, but did this coup take place in order to strengthen the monarchy or to allow one faction of the ruling elite could beat Thaksin? No one can really deny that lèse majesté is a political tool in numerous faction fights between those who all claim to support the monarchy. This is another reason to abolish the law.

Apart from the right to criticise the monarchy, in a democratic society we must have the right to propose new forms of society. It must not be a "crime" to advocate a republic in Thailand. Republics exist in most modern and civilised nations of the world. But whether or not to have a republic must be the decision of the Thai people after free debate.

Thailand actually has a long tradition of differing views concerning the monarchy. Under feudalism the surfs made great efforts to avoid royal conscripted labor and the ruling elites would often kill kings in order to take power themselves. Under the absolute monarchies of Rama 5-7, nobles, civil servants, workers and farmers often showed their displeasure at the centralisation of power or the inefficiency of the king's rule. This ended with the 1932 revolution. In the period when the Communist Party of Thailand had much influence, many Thais wanted a republic. These are historical facts. So let us not believe the rubbish that all Thais have been royalists throughout history.

Whether a Thai citizen uses scientific or Buddhist philosophy, the common factor here is that respect and admiration should come from reason. We must be free to think for ourselves. It is not possible to force someone to respect anything sincerely.

Therefore Chotisak's and many other people's decisions not to stand in the cinema are perfectly natural and legitimate. But if the Thai elite need to use a law to enforce respect that means that they are afraid that Thais can actually think for themselves! Lèse majesté is an obstacle to reasoned free-thinking among Thais. It is high time it was abolished.

Giles Ji Ungpakorn is a member of the Faculty of Political Science, Chulalongkorn University, Bangkok

[sriracha john]

Is the above from Giles banned book?

[jumnien]

No, it isn't. However it is an excellent read I think you would enjoy!

[sriracha john]

No, it isn't. However it is an excellent read I think you would enjoy!

Please cite the source of your post then.....

Also, there's no need to post the same lengthy post in 2 separate threads.

Read his book, wouldn't rate it as "excellent".... more like "so-so"... understandable why his own university won't sell it.

[Plus]

same military that slaughtered so many students in the last coup.

Last coup (I presume 1992) didn't see a slaughter of the students.

Instead it was PAD's Chamlong and his followers who were jailed and killed.

Students were main victims of 1976 coupand both Samak and the Interior Minister Chalerm were on the military side. In fact Samak openly denies that anyone was killed at all.

>>>

Giles is as confused as ever, feeling sidelined because his anti-monarchy, anti-capitalist agenda is of no interest to anyone anymore.

[nomoretalksin]

Plus, you save my day.

Finally someone, besides Sri Racha John and others, who get & understand the whole pic. Please keep up explaining to the non-understanding the real facts about the last 5-6 years (of Thaksin Ruling).

The whole problem currently is very easy: We have a inofficial but ruling PM: Thaksin who should not run the country currently. But he is exactly just doing this.

And even worse, once again trying to stop institutions, courts etc. to check allegations of corruption, government & law abuses & human rights allegations,

which they try to clear for him, with this "so urgent needed?" amendment of the constituation! That's the whole purpose of this excercise.

It's difficult in a country like this to change for the good, to many politicians just want one thing: cash, and they don't care or want to really work for the country.

Especially one group currently is seeking the same succcess (financial - but this guy is not happy for sure not matter how much money he will make more) as their

grand meistro.

The Democrats are sadly currently the only major party planning for the future of Thailand and not for their own pockets as the other Partys do.

As Plus said, it was the Democrats, with their "shadow goverment" who proposed solutions for the country in this running term.

Meanwhile PPP is trying to Patent the "Full Moon Party" and trying to get Mega-Projects going, so their commissions are finally rolling in. That's all they can think off.

This is the current situation. Also all allegations against the so called "Royal Elite" etc. I find absurd, as who is helping the country since

various decades, with true honest help?? The King & his family themselves!

Thaksin is the evil, and he and his proxies have to be removed from the political arena, or else Thailand will sink further and further into this political chaos,

which is not caused by the PAD. On the contrary they can't accept the "over mega-ecxagerated corruption" any more these people are doing.

We should support the PAD, and make sure an honest election will take place with free media (correct noted by H90), where also the Democrats should get air-time on local goverment TV's (mostly

the only source in the major voting population up-country). Why are Jakropob and Thaksin denying them air-time?? Because they are freedom fighters for democracy? And

the evil coup-makers in 2006/7 were against democracy? If you know the situation well, you understand the opposite is the sad reality. The military (also watch out when you talk

about the military, as there various fractions within the military) during their junta time, tried to promote free TV, elections without vote buying etc. But once again, Thakin's framework up-country

took THB's to the people doors and begged or supressed them for their support. My girlfriend's family in her up-country home time, had only PPP people knocking on the door (no Dems, no any others) with the village khanman (head of village) standing behind the PPP people on the streets and rising their eye-brows. Can you imagine upcountry, if you not vote for the town-heads recommendations; what then will happen with your future within your own town? Nearly an oppression to vote for the right party, instead of free-will. I agree and understand that some do believe Thaksin should be their PM, and some voted on their free-will, but statistical facts (by universities & democracts) show that they actually also don't get the whole pic, as it's true that the

poor people just got actually and in reality got even poorer during Thaksin's time: Dept's rising etc. and that Thaksini never promoted Democracy (which is needed if you don't want to be dependent on one wrong thinking dear leader), as everytime the elections were over, it was only him who did the decision making and often sueing all others not agreeing with him.

Once again I want to ask: Why do they need to amend the consitution, if Thaksin and other various top government officials, who also are accused of corruption (including Samak our proxy PM).

are so innocent of their crimes? Why don't they go to the courts, and show us their innocence, instead of trying to purge all check's & balances? Just think a little bit and you understand

who is on the side of democracy and the try to free this country from dictatorship.

If you are innocent, you don't need to run away (thaksin: desolving parlament to call snap elections in 2006 + in 2008 doing it again nearly same style of non-response to allegations by various sides) but you would stand still and try to explain yourself.

When will Thaksin ever explain all those allegations with facts, instead with only emotions. He never did, and most propably will never want to do so! Currently they are running again (from the truth), by changing the constitution, instead of explaining the standing allegations! Sand but true fact.

Edited May 26, 2008 by nomoretalksin

[h90]

nomoretalksin: nothing to add...fully agree....

[jumnien]

Assuming Thaksin is guilty of something, the Thai Army had 19 months to prove something and instead decided to rip apart a very popular constitution and replace it with its own dribble.

[h90]

Assuming Thaksin is guilty of something, the Thai Army had 19 months to prove something and instead decided to rip apart a very popular constitution and replace it with its own dribble.

looool....No Thaksin is inocent, loool.

And never money was handed out during elections.....

Which country do you write about? Island? Sweden?

[Ricardo]

Assuming Thaksin is guilty of something, the Thai Army had 19 months to prove something and instead decided to rip apart a very popular constitution and replace it with its own dribble.

The problem with proving anything against Thaksin, in court, was his persistent failure to show up. Which for some reason meant that the cases couldn't proceed. This does not however mean that there was no case to answer, merely that the Thai judicial-system didn't want to find him guilty, in absentia.

Strangely enough, now that he is back in the country, he seems to have no problem with not being present, while proceedings slowly progress. Funny that.

One of his claimed reasons, for refusing to face justice, was that his life was threatened here, yet nothing seems to happened, since he did return. Also funny.

A cynic might conclude that he has lots to hide, or he doesn't trust thai justice, in which case he might ask himself why he didn't correct any perceived problems, when he was in power & had the opportunity.

[jumnien]

In the 19 months the Army was in power, were any Army officers convicted for the Krue Sae massacres? Could the reason Thaksin wasn't convicted by that he was corrupt as usual, just like they are corrupt. It is laughable that some on this forum believe that Thaksin commited some sort of corrupt behavior and that the Army out of a genuine concern for the welfare of the common man selflessly stepped in to help. What nonsense!

[hammered]

Assuming Thaksin is guilty of something, the Thai Army had 19 months to prove something and instead decided to rip apart a very popular constitution and replace it with its own dribble.

The problem with proving anything against Thaksin, in court, was his persistent failure to show up. Which for some reason meant that the cases couldn't proceed. This does not however mean that there was no case to answer, merely that the Thai judicial-system didn't want to find him guilty, in absentia.

Strangely enough, now that he is back in the country, he seems to have no problem with not being present, while proceedings slowly progress. Funny that.

One of his claimed reasons, for refusing to face justice, was that his life was threatened here, yet nothing seems to happened, since he did return. Also funny.

A cynic might conclude that he has lots to hide, or he doesn't trust thai justice, in which case he might ask himself why he didn't correct any perceived problems, when he was in power & had the opportunity.

We mere mortals will never get to know now that government policy is to ignore all issues except for ammending the constitution in a way to ensure none of their martyrs end up getting their day in court.

[jumnien]

Give it up, folks. Army officers are not going to be prosecuted for their actions. It just won't happen. Thaksin's not going to rot in jail either. It's the Thai way!

[h90]

In the 19 months the Army was in power, were any Army officers convicted for the Krue Sae massacres? Could the reason Thaksin wasn't convicted by that he was corrupt as usual, just like they are corrupt. It is laughable that some on this forum believe that Thaksin commited some sort of corrupt behavior and that the Army out of a genuine concern for the welfare of the common man selflessly stepped in to help. What nonsense!

And how does it make Thaksin better if Army officers are not convicted?? just stop to switch to another story when you don't have any arguments. You didn't answer me the corruption cases of Chamlong, yet. Instead you changed to Sondi.....

[jumnien]

In the 19 months the Army was in power, were any Army officers convicted for the Krue Sae massacres? Could the reason Thaksin wasn't convicted by that he was corrupt as usual, just like they are corrupt. It is laughable that some on this forum believe that Thaksin commited some sort of corrupt behavior and that the Army out of a genuine concern for the welfare of the common man selflessly stepped in to help. What nonsense!

And how does it make Thaksin better if Army officers are not convicted?? just stop to switch to another story when you don't have any arguments. You didn't answer me the corruption cases of Chamlong, yet. Instead you changed to Sondi.....

In your home country, which is obviously not English-speaking, I'm sure there are some politicians who have taken a few liberties while in office. Do you really support your military taking over the government by force and re-writing the constitution?

[A_Traveller]

^ Ah the old, look how smart I am ploy, minus answer, of course. Unfortunately since h90 only a few hours ago commented about his nationality in a thread to which you have contributed, I'm not impressed by the 'obviously' statement. Try harder, or even better yet, try to answer the questions put to you, thereby arguing your position.

Regards

Edited May 26, 2008 by A_Traveller

[jumnien]

Anyone is free to answer the question as stated - "In your home country, I'm sure there are some politicians who have taken a few liberties while in office. Do you really support your military taking over the government by force and re-writing the constitution?

There will be no demands that you answer the question. This is a free forum after all. If you don't want to answer the question, then don't. No need to get defensive.

[h90]

In the 19 months the Army was in power, were any Army officers convicted for the Krue Sae massacres? Could the reason Thaksin wasn't convicted by that he was corrupt as usual, just like they are corrupt. It is laughable that some on this forum believe that Thaksin commited some sort of corrupt behavior and that the Army out of a genuine concern for the welfare of the common man selflessly stepped in to help. What nonsense!

And how does it make Thaksin better if Army officers are not convicted?? just stop to switch to another story when you don't have any arguments. You didn't answer me the corruption cases of Chamlong, yet. Instead you changed to Sondi.....

In your home country, which is obviously not English-speaking, I'm sure there are some politicians who have taken a few liberties while in office. Do you really support your military taking over the government by force and re-writing the constitution?

Re-read: And how does it make Thaksin better if Army officers are not convicted?? just stop to switch to another story when you don't have any arguments. You didn't answer me the corruption cases of Chamlong, yet. Instead you changed to Sondi.....

I think the answer of which corruption was done by Chamlong is still pending. And I still don't understand the Krue Sae massacres has what exactly to do with the FACT that Thaksin was corrupt. In my home-country people like Samak and Thaksin would have gone 20 years earlier into jail, before they come close to lead a party. Handing out cash on an election is complete un-thinkable in most countries.

[jumnien]

In the 19 months the Army was in power, were any Army officers convicted for the Krue Sae massacres? Could the reason Thaksin wasn't convicted by that he was corrupt as usual, just like they are corrupt. It is laughable that some on this forum believe that Thaksin commited some sort of corrupt behavior and that the Army out of a genuine concern for the welfare of the common man selflessly stepped in to help. What nonsense!

And how does it make Thaksin better if Army officers are not convicted?? just stop to switch to another story when you don't have any arguments. You didn't answer me the corruption cases of Chamlong, yet. Instead you changed to Sondi.....

In your home country, which is obviously not English-speaking, I'm sure there are some politicians who have taken a few liberties while in office. Do you really support your military taking over the government by force and re-writing the constitution?

Re-read: And how does it make Thaksin better if Army officers are not convicted?? just stop to switch to another story when you don't have any arguments. You didn't answer me the corruption cases of Chamlong, yet. Instead you changed to Sondi.....

I think the answer of which corruption was done by Chamlong is still pending. And I still don't understand the Krue Sae massacres has what exactly to do with the FACT that Thaksin was corrupt. In my home-country people like Samak and Thaksin would have gone 20 years earlier into jail, before they come close to lead a party. Handing out cash on an election is complete un-thinkable in most countries.

In my country, a band of army boys running in on tanks into the capital with ideas for a new constitution would be shot on sight!

[Khun Jean]

^If your country has an opressive dictator those army boys wil be cheered and applauded to. Hmm same as happened in Thailand. Not so different after all.

[h90]

In the 19 months the Army was in power, were any Army officers convicted for the Krue Sae massacres? Could the reason Thaksin wasn't convicted by that he was corrupt as usual, just like they are corrupt. It is laughable that some on this forum believe that Thaksin commited some sort of corrupt behavior and that the Army out of a genuine concern for the welfare of the common man selflessly stepped in to help. What nonsense!

And how does it make Thaksin better if Army officers are not convicted?? just stop to switch to another story when you don't have any arguments. You didn't answer me the corruption cases of Chamlong, yet. Instead you changed to Sondi.....

In your home country, which is obviously not English-speaking, I'm sure there are some politicians who have taken a few liberties while in office. Do you really support your military taking over the government by force and re-writing the constitution?

Re-read: And how does it make Thaksin better if Army officers are not convicted?? just stop to switch to another story when you don't have any arguments. You didn't answer me the corruption cases of Chamlong, yet. Instead you changed to Sondi.....

I think the answer of which corruption was done by Chamlong is still pending. And I still don't understand the Krue Sae massacres has what exactly to do with the FACT that Thaksin was corrupt. In my home-country people like Samak and Thaksin would have gone 20 years earlier into jail, before they come close to lead a party. Handing out cash on an election is complete un-thinkable in most countries.

In my country, a band of army boys running in on tanks into the capital with ideas for a new constitution would be shot on sight!

shot from who, from you? Normally the reason why the army and not the union of nurses is staging a coup, is that they have the guns. The reason why the army is using tanks is, that tanks offer a bit more protection against people like you than lets say a bicycle.

But I think/hope that not all people from your country are like you.

[jumnien]

Well, we'll agree to disagree. Lots of countries have leaders that folks just don't like, often for very good reason. Most folks, however, excluding militariy rightists, just feel a bit leary of having their military jump in to straighten thinks out morally for a nation. Military men are great at what they are trained to do - to protect a nation and be highly efficient trained killers. There are examples of nations we all love which are run lovingly by their military. Name a few.

[h90]

Well, we'll agree to disagree. Lots of countries have leaders that folks just don't like, often for very good reason. Most folks, however, excluding militariy rightists, just feel a bit leary of having their military jump in to straighten thinks out morally for a nation. Military men are great at what they are trained to do - to protect a nation and be highly efficient trained killers. There are examples of nations we all love which are run lovingly by their military. Name a few.

Name a few countries which are run by a dictator like thaksin. (He was far away from being an elected premier at the end.) There are not many. And you forgot that the military did NOT intend to run the country. As you remind they gave back the power. so your question is nonsense. Beside that it is not so interesting what other countries do when we speak about Thailand.

But don't forget to answer where your found corruption at Chamlong and I think earlier you wanted to explain me the cruel of the army junta in Thailand. Before you jump to the next point, maybe you could answer that?

[jumnien]

Well, thanks for bringing the historical cruelty of the Thai military up. The following passage from the esteemed Mr. Ungpakorn hints at what we are discussing. I'll let his words speak for themselves:

"Thirty years ago, agitation by the extreme right through such media outlets as the Tank Corps radio station and Dao Sayam newspaper, resulted in the utmost barbarism at Thammasat University on October 6, 1976, when right-wing forces and the military set on students, hanging them, setting them afire and committing other acts of savagery. Therefore the recent swearing of an oath of allegiance to "Nation Religion and King" by the so-called People’s Alliance for Democracy at Thammasat is tantamount to spitting on the memories of those who died and suffered in the bloody events."

Regardless, I was curious if you found any other passages of Mr. Ungpakorn's respected wisdom worthy of comment. I am really enjoying our free exchange of ideas and viewpoints. Thank you for your participation!

.