Bangkok, The Capital Of Gridlock

[craigrs]

TH,

"Anyone here ever commute from Tracy to Palo Alto? That is easily the worst commute in the world"

Did you? or do you?

Thats insanity at crunch time.

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[chevykanteve]

TH,

"Anyone here ever commute from Tracy to Palo Alto? That is easily the worst commute in the world"

Did you? or do you?

Thats insanity at crunch time.

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How about rush-hour, Oakland to San Jose on Highway 17 (the Nimitz Freeway). Ah..... memories.

[astral]

When I visit London as a tourist I am struck by the difference that the Congestion Charge has made.

The buses and traffic generally move freely, and travel around the city has become easy.

A card for travel on buses anywhere in the Greater London area cost me GBP13 for a week,

really good value when set against the alternative of GBP1 per journey.

[Heng]

the government should implement a program similar to Singapore to get the poor and middle class people off the road, which would also help with pollution. and maybe they could even plant some trees.

Yeah that would eliminate 99.9% of the traffic in Thailand, but it sounds like tyranny to me. Who determines where the upper class begins? There would be no taxis since I seriously doubt that any taxi drivers are upper class. That leaves the rich the use of the roads, utter nonsense. You end up with every vehicle on the road luxury cars and limos.

And I guess you would relegate the rest of LOS to ride public transit. IMHO it's the public transit, save the MRT and BTS, that belch out the most noxious fumes from their diesel engines.

You're talking about two different things there (pollution and traffic), and adding another unrelated thing: your dislike for public transport.

The Singapore system, or something like it: higher taxes -both VAT and yearly registration- for all private vehicles... with it getting more and more tax heavy the larger the price tag of the automobile (hardly the same as saying: 'if you are poor you cannot drive, and if you are rich, then the road is yours'), public transport + taxis would be somewhat exempt although of course taxis would be taxed and priced much more because they take up more space per passenger.

If applied here, it would no doubt help the situation, but they'll never do it.

[gunnyd]

^^Actually I ride public transport all the time, I don't ride on non-Aircon buses, but that's about it. I walk to public transport, unless it's pouring rain outside then I take a taxi. Don't assume.

As for the statement that only the upper class be allowed ownership of cars, I'll stick to my guns, it is tyranny, and frankly I am not a big fan of how the repressive government of Singapore does it's business, but that is my personal opinion. Being a US citizen shades my opinion, IMHO Singapore is pretty close to being a fascist state.

Edited March 16, 2008 by gunnyd

[Heng]

All good then, so there is nothing wrong with limiting the poor to public transportation (since there is nothing wrong with it IF it is kept up to standards). Rich and poor is relative so it's not like there will be a clear cut 'class' line between folks that drive and those who ride. The rich can choose to use public transport (as they already do) and the poor can choose to work and save their way into affording licenses and vehicles ...not to mention that this whole hypothetical system can be selectively zoned... who says the poor cannot drive in the countryside and just not in cities (and only then when they can't afford it)? Hardly tyrannical. Just a repricing of a commodity.

[realmadrid25]

If you are calling Singapore a fascist state, I doubt you have actually been there. The buses there are much better than Thailand. They have an MRT system. The streets are lined with trees and walking is not bad. Traffic is still hectic during rush hour.

Their system is simple: taxes make it expensive to own a car. Therefore only the people willing to spend the money drive. Thus there is less traffic. Thus driving is more enjoyable for the rich, and travel on public transportation is more enjoyable for the poor. This system increases the quality of life everyone.

How does it work in Thailand? Every Joe who can scrape together 40,00 baht has a motorcycle. Every Joe Somebody who can scrape together 300,000 baht has a car. Thus driving is absolutely miserable in Thailand.

Why do you think socialism works better than capitalism?

The government provides a service: driving on the roads, why do you believe that the price of that service should be kept artificially low?

[burman]

Their system is simple: taxes make it expensive to own a car. Therefore only the people willing to spend the money drive. Thus there is less traffic. Thus driving is more enjoyable for the rich, and travel on public transportation is more enjoyable for the poor. This system increases the quality of life everyone.

And what about the poor people who need a car for work/family reasons? How does this system improve their quality of life?

[madjbs]

How does it work in Thailand? Every Joe who can scrape together 40,00 baht has a motorcycle. Every Joe Somebody who can scrape together 300,000 baht has a car.

And long may it remain. Thailand is a much bigger place than Singapore you know and if the public transport system was good enough here then people would use it anyway. The busses in BKK are already packed full as it is.

Edited March 16, 2008 by madjbs

[gunnyd]

If you are calling Singapore a fascist state, I doubt you have actually been there. The buses there are much better than Thailand. They have an MRT system. The streets are lined with trees and walking is not bad. Traffic is still hectic during rush hour.

Their system is simple: taxes make it expensive to own a car. Therefore only the people willing to spend the money drive. Thus there is less traffic. Thus driving is more enjoyable for the rich, and travel on public transportation is more enjoyable for the poor. This system increases the quality of life everyone.

How does it work in Thailand? Every Joe who can scrape together 40,00 baht has a motorcycle. Every Joe Somebody who can scrape together 300,000 baht has a car. Thus driving is absolutely miserable in Thailand.

Why do you think socialism works better than capitalism?

The government provides a service: driving on the roads, why do you believe that the price of that service should be kept artificially low?

Yes I have been there. It is a Disneyland version of SEA. The government controls everything. This one I love - chewing gum is illegal. And another - Toilet police, you can get fined $150 if forget to flush after using a public toilet. Their version of free speech a corner in a park. Freedom of the press - a former MP opposition leader Joshua Benjamin Jeyaretnam publishes a book critizing the majority party gets bankrupted through libel lawsuits. Singapore - Asia's Cuba

Like I said as an American I see Singapore as a fascist state that controls every aspect of it's people and visitors. If you like a "Nanny State" type of government you are welcome to go as much as you want. One trip was enough to convince me it's not for me.

Socialism is not a choice given to the people it is forced on to them. All who oppose get jail time or worse. I hate to go so off-topic on this but I can't let this go unanswered. I have to go with Benjamin Franklin on this - "Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security."

edit: To Mods and Admins: If this is too off-topic please delete post

Edited March 16, 2008 by gunnyd

[pampal]

Ride a bike

[Johpa]

If you think Bangkok is bad now you obviously were not there in the early 90's. It was MUCH worse then.

When in-country I rarely spend time in the big city, but traffic has indeed improved dramatically over the years with the building of the elevated tollways and expressways. These modern whiners just don't remember when it was often three hours from Don Muang into center of the city.

[samran]

If you think Bangkok is bad now you obviously were not there in the early 90's. It was MUCH worse then.

When in-country I rarely spend time in the big city, but traffic has indeed improved dramatically over the years with the building of the elevated tollways and expressways. These modern whiners just don't remember when it was often three hours from Don Muang into center of the city.

I remeber staying out at Rangsit in the late 1980's and early 1990's. Three hours to the centre of BKK was the norm.

A few easy and cheap things could help imensely, such as better enforcement of traffic. People turning right from middle lanes leaving only one left lane to let traffic go straight. Zero tolerance of people blocking intersections and any entrance to a street would make traffic flow alot better.

[realmadrid25]

How does it work in Thailand? Every Joe who can scrape together 40,00 baht has a motorcycle. Every Joe Somebody who can scrape together 300,000 baht has a car.

And long may it remain. Thailand is a much bigger place than Singapore you know and if the public transport system was good enough here then people would use it anyway. The busses in BKK are already packed full as it is.

so there is no more room to expand the roads. there are too many cars. the only reasaonable option for things to improve is to make it harder for people to afford to drive. and thailand is not whats at question here, its bangkok. nobody is complaining about the traffic in roi et.

[realmadrid25]

Their system is simple: taxes make it expensive to own a car. Therefore only the people willing to spend the money drive. Thus there is less traffic. Thus driving is more enjoyable for the rich, and travel on public transportation is more enjoyable for the poor. This system increases the quality of life everyone.

And what about the poor people who need a car for work/family reasons? How does this system improve their quality of life?

most people dont need a car, its a luxury. obviously those with a business would have an added expense. so it goes...

[madjbs]

How does it work in Thailand? Every Joe who can scrape together 40,00 baht has a motorcycle. Every Joe Somebody who can scrape together 300,000 baht has a car.

And long may it remain. Thailand is a much bigger place than Singapore you know and if the public transport system was good enough here then people would use it anyway. The busses in BKK are already packed full as it is.

so there is no more room to expand the roads. there are too many cars. the only reasaonable option for things to improve is to make it harder for people to afford to drive. and thailand is not whats at question here, its bangkok. nobody is complaining about the traffic in roi et.

No it is not the only option. If all the planned routes for the BTS and MRT materialise then they will effectively cover the whole of Bangkok which would ease traffic significantly.

[Austhaied]

Yes it is, remember one fellow, who is now the MAN said he could solve the problem in 6 month if he was PM.

That reminds me of the election promise of Vicente Fox in 2000 in Mexico, that he would solve the Zapatista conflict in a few minutes. In six years, he never did. Don't you just love to hate politicians?

Traffic congestion (I did not know BKK is now rated as the world's worst) is one reason I would never live there, and have always hated even getting into the city.

Don't vote for politicians...it only encourages them.

Bangkok is fine for a few hours after morning rush and home time rush. Then it's fine again after 8 pm..

Otherwise just use the underground or the skytrain...It worked for us for two years with no real dramas.

Edited March 16, 2008 by Austhaied

[realmadrid25]

How does it work in Thailand? Every Joe who can scrape together 40,00 baht has a motorcycle. Every Joe Somebody who can scrape together 300,000 baht has a car.

And long may it remain. Thailand is a much bigger place than Singapore you know and if the public transport system was good enough here then people would use it anyway. The busses in BKK are already packed full as it is.

so there is no more room to expand the roads. there are too many cars. the only reasaonable option for things to improve is to make it harder for people to afford to drive. and thailand is not whats at question here, its bangkok. nobody is complaining about the traffic in roi et.

No it is not the only option. If all the planned routes for the BTS and MRT materialise then they will effectively cover the whole of Bangkok which would ease traffic significantly.

doubtful. traffic in central bangkok is still hel_l. anyone who can afford a car will still buy one to gain face with neighbors. anyone who can buy a motorcylce will buy one to gain face with neighbors. as long as you acknowlege the status symbol of the automobile in modern thai society, you realise that the only way to really solve the problem would be to price automobiles out of the poor and middle class people's range.

[realmadrid25]

obviously i understand for those of you who will get mad at this comment cause you are middle class. your wife will feel ashamed that you cant drive anymore etc, but you should remember that others will also be affected so your status will really not move down much, well you will be further from the top but you will still be ahead of all the other people you were ahead of before. good luck with that, but dont hate me for speaking the truth.

Edited March 16, 2008 by realmadrid25

[madjbs]

Motorcycles do not cause a serious traffic problem, they may be slightly annoying to farang drivers who are not used to them though. In fact the cheapness of motorcycles EASES the traffic as many people just get a bike instead of saving all their money for a car. Cars on the other hand are not cheap at all at the moment, the reason why many people buy them is because it is easy to get finance and many people need to travel outside of Bangkok.

EDIT: After reading your posts more closely it appears that you are actually just a troll.

Edited March 16, 2008 by madjbs

[sfokevin]

I was just sitting in traffic (And I mean sitting) in Cairo and thought what a dream the traffic in Bangkok was... And in Cairo it never rains!!!

[realmadrid25]

motorcycles do add significantly to traffic imo, except for maybe the express way. cars constantly have to slow down, and motorcycles are easier to maneuver and get in front of cars, etc. think of how many times a line of motorcycles shoot infront and a row of cars has to sit there and wait to turn. you will not believe this but i have even seen farang driving motorcycles. shameful.

[realmadrid25]

and i think its wrong to say its just farang drivers bothered by motorcyclists. its the thai drivers too, atleast the ones not liquored up.

[burman]

you will not believe this but i have even seen farang driving motorcycles. shameful.

I know I am going to do my head some damage asking this Realmadrid, but why are farangs riding motorbikes shameful?

[madjbs]

No, most Thai people are not in the slightest bit bothered by motorcycles, I'm not either.

[PadThaiGuy]

There just isn't enough room for all the cars.

In 20 years, it will be gridlock, 24/7 with an average speed of 2kph. (think rush hours all day and nite)

When the Thai Gov finaly puts on it's thinking cap, they will have no choice but to follow the plans of Singapore, London, Bogota.

Cars are great out in the suberbia but are just plain stupid to be used in a city.

(1)Good public transport(elec busses, subways etc..)

(2)Eliminate 80% of the cars.

(3)Change a portion of the roadway into pedestrian lanes/bike/scooter lanes/parks/green space/cafes.

Less pollution, congestion, danger, heat = more fun enjoyment for pedestrians.

Edited March 17, 2008 by PadThaiGuy

[Thai at Heart]

Bring on Red Ken. Congestion charge! Now there would be a bob or two generated for the sticky fingers of anyone who wanted to help themselves to it.

Seriously though. The lights are a shambles purely because they let the coppers individually handle them. There is very little computer synchronisation, and virtually no on line traffic flow data. They simply push more traffic into the jams.

ironically, sitting in a traffic jam under the BTS and one can see thousands of taxis and buses, because not only is Sukhumvit or Silom a major office area they are massive thoroughfares. Buses are travelling the exact same routes as the BTS in their hundreds because the bloody terminal is at Ekaamai! They might as well pedestrianise both although that will never happen.

How about banning unoccupied taxis from trawling up and down the major roads? Pick ups only allowed from Soi's? Often times taxis represtent 20% of the traffic.

[0Mix1up]

Bangkok should have utilized, managed and updated its klongs

It was built around them in the first place and a natual advantage it should have exploited.

Never gonna happen now

[jasreeve17]

Bangkok should have utilized, managed and updated its klongs

It was built around them in the first place and a natual advantage it should have exploited.

Never gonna happen now

Most klongs seem to have changed into open sewage troughs.

A lot of money needs to be spent on Bangkok infastructure if the city is to have a bright future. It is possible if the motivation's there. Many huge cities (London for example) have managed huge infastructure projects and overhauls to enable them to grow.

You need good city planners and well managed budgets, so perhaps not likely in Bkk.

[thaihome]

There just isn't enough room for all the cars.

In 20 years, it will be gridlock, 24/7 with an average speed of 2kph. (think rush hours all day and nite)

When the Thai Gov finaly puts on it's thinking cap, they will have no choice but to follow the plans of Singapore, London, Bogota.

Cars are great out in the suberbia but are just plain stupid to be used in a city.

(1)Good public transport(elec busses, subways etc..)

(2)Eliminate 80% of the cars.

(3)Change a portion of the roadway into pedestrian lanes/bike/scooter lanes/parks/green space/cafes.

Less pollution, congestion, danger, heat = more fun enjoyment for pedestrians.

Some of the worst jams right now are out in the suburbs. Have you ever driven out to Minburi on Ram Intra or out to Bangna at about 6:00PM? The road is full of buses and mini-buses packed to ceiling, but still jammed. Bangkok encompasses over 1,500 sqkm. Most lower/middle-class working Thais live out in the suburbs, too far to walk or ride a bike, buses are packed with standing room only. If you can afford a car, it is still more comfortable then a bus for the hour plus it is going to take to get to/from work.

There are no easy solutions, certainly getting rid of 80% of the cars is ridiculous.

TH