Are Foreigners Destroying Thailand?

[VTR1000]

I've been here in Thailand for coming up to two decades and in that time I've seen major changes within the country. Let me add that I live in a provincial Thai town, way off the worn down tourist trail. When I first arrived here, it was pretty much me, me alone, the only westerner there. Now, there are well over 100 westerners in this town, most of whom are teachers ....

In the tourist areas it is far worse. Phuket I remember as once being so beautiful with quiet beaches and friendlier people, Khoa Lak was pretty much deserted, Khokroi an empty beach, Aunang quiet and peaceful. I'm not even going to mention Koh Samui/Chang etc (haven't been up north for a while but I imagine it is the same in popular places). All have gone downhill in my opinon, the beauty has been lost, forever maybe and replaced with overpriced condos, unplanned or ill-thought building projects, gawdy bars, greedy locals, greedy western business owners etc etc fed by forever busier roads and an ever growing population.

My question is; Are we, the foreign residents/visitors here (unwittingly maybe?) helping to destroy what we came here for? I believe it is because of our presence, that we are. If there have been this many changes in the time I've been here, what changes in the coming decades.

Any comments?

[koheesti]

I know what you mean. Places I knew twenty years ago have also changed. [/sarcasm]

Change is a part of life. I lived in Estonia for over a decade and it was great. Unfortuntely, it has undgergone a lot of changes - some good, some bad - and it's not the same place I fell in love with. I'm sure it's the same all over the world.

[adjan jb]

There are places I remember

All my life though some have changed

Some forever not for better

Some have gone and some remain

[toptuan]

I have seen the stages of growth you describe in at least 3-4 places I've lived in my home country and now in Thailand. I started out the only foreigner in my town, too (about 6 years ago) and now there must be 30-40 of us. Small mom & pop businesses are giving way to a Big C, Pizza Company, KFC, and a couple big shopping malls. IMO, it's a natural evolution of population growth, more than the presence of foreigners.

If you don't like it, move to a place you like. Even within a small country like Thailand, there are still many out-of-the-way places you can live where you'd be back to square one again, and enjoy another 10-20 years of solitude before growth catches up to you again.

Don't fret. Just relocate. Then enjoy.

[GuestHouse]

Accusing foreigners of destroying Thailand is streatching it a bit, the evidence on the ground is that the Thais are doing a pretty good job by themselves.

However, I think a case can be made that Thailand destroys more than a few foreigners.

[TEFLMike]

I was only thinking about this last night, sat in a Westen bar cafe in Pattaya.

Since last week, Menu prices have shot up in price. 14b hat on his range of homemade soups, for example. There are many western cafes,r estaurants that advertise 'daily specials' for 149b upwards. Yet there are equally good Thai owned cafes and restuarants selling the same western food menus, from a 1/3 or more, cheaper,, and just as nice. I realise that there have been price increases on food products, however, using my one example, I fail to see justification in a hike on soup from 55b to 69b in one go. And another thing, has the owner increased the pay to his staff? I would like to think so, however, I lean towards the idea that he has not.

[Samuian]

Some have gone and some remain

The majority of those places which remain are the ones, with few exceptions, which have been protected and are off limits for developers, homeowners-buyers!

"Guesthouse":Accusing foreigners of destroying Thailand is stretching it a bit, the evidence on the ground is that the Thais are doing a pretty good job by themselves.

[toptuan]

Over the last few years, I've come across quite a number of articles, both in newspapers and on the internet, about how the presence of foreigners in economically-disadvantaged Isaan have significantly brought up the standard of living for large populations. The last article, in the BKK Post, estimated at least 750,000 jobs have been created for Thai nationals due to the presence of foreigners living there. That can't all be bad!

[donna]

i come from melbourne. when my parents built their house, just a 1 hour drive from the city, it was on a dirt road and we had goannas and snakes in our backyard. now, 40 years on, the house is smack bang in the middle of suburbia.

its just a sign of the times im afraid.

[Heng]

Along Guesthouse's post, foreigners don't have the power to destroy anything here. It's the locals doing most of that.

[gzu88bv]

OP, I do not like you title at all.

You should have asked: Are "Times" Destroying Thailand?

[geriatrickid]

Oh boy, here we go again.

I usually have a negative comment about tourists and expats, but this is one time where foreigners cannot be blamed. The downhill slide is exclusively the responsibility of the local Thai people. While we farangs must take responsibility for our behaviour and our actions, the issues you highlight are all under the direct control of the Thais.

It is Thai people that supposedly oversee development and infrastructure. Farangs don't approve the plans for highways that go nowhere or allow the over development. The Thai government has a duty and a responsibility to enact and enforce environmental and life & safety measures, but it has chosen to abrogate this duty. If there are bad farangs in Thailand, then it's up to Thailand to toss them out.

Actions like extorting money from drivers does not promote respect for those supposed to maintain law and order with an emphasis on order. Quality of life takes a back seat to personal gain here and that attitude is homegrown. That outlook was not introduced by your typical farang. When Thais encroach on national parks or forest preserves, nothing happens. We can blame farangs for many things, but on this, it is the Thai people that call the shots and it is therefore up to the Thai people to preserve their country. Unfortunately, the ruling collective isn't about to let anyone get in the way of their amassing wealth and power is it?

Edited May 12, 2008 by geriatrickid

[dominator]

Accusing foreigners of destroying Thailand is streatching it a bit, the evidence on the ground is that the Thais are doing a pretty good job by themselves.

However, I think a case can be made that Thailand destroys more than a few foreigners.

Agreed Guesthouse.

It's the greedy Thais who are destroying their own country.

The greed, as we know, comes from the top, down.

Right down to the bottom, where the greedy parents send their barely eligible daughters to the bars to hook a 'farang' so they don't have to work anymore.

[ade100]

Development is necessary and has many positive effects. Of course, it can be done in a careful and well managed way or in a shambolic, disastrous way.

My GF grew up on Phuket and while we may romanticise about idyllic unspoilt beaches, her description of the place was rather bleak. Once night fell, the place was very dark and dangerous. There were no street lights, no shopping malls, hardly any bars or restaurants. People seemed to go to bed about 7pm.

Yes there were unspoilt beaches but when the family of six only had a 50cc Vespa to get around on, they didn’t make it Patong too often.

So my point is that this development has undoubtedly led to a better standard of living and quality of life for local people. However, could this development be better controlled and managed? I don’t need answer that question.

[Wrong Turn]

My question is; Are we, the foreign residents/visitors here (unwittingly maybe?) helping to destroy what we came here for? I believe it is because of our presence, that we are. If there have been this many changes in the time I've been here, what changes in the coming decades.

Any comments?

Yes, foreigners change a culture to some degree in the places that have foreigners. I wish foreigners (including me) could be a little more "Thai" and less "foreign." Even as a foreigner - I am one of the same - I think certain areas of Thailand "have too many foreigners." I know this is hypocritcal, but this is how I feel.

A global world. And yes, I think more foreigners will come, and many will stay long-term. Not necessarily stay forever, but many will continue to stay long-term.

And yes, we change many things. I try not to, but I do, just by living here.

[VTR1000]

Accusing foreigners of destroying Thailand is streatching it a bit, the evidence on the ground is that the Thais are doing a pretty good job by themselves.

Not an accusation guesthouse, more of an open observation and question.

However, I think a case can be made that Thailand destroys more than a few foreigners.

Hmmm, yes ... as we see nearly everyday.

Question: Would Thailand be the same today if it hadn't had the influx of foreign capital?

Answer: Of course it wouldn't but how would it be? That is what I wonder.

[Samuian]

.....

Yes there were unspoilt beaches but when the family of six only had a 50cc Vespa to get around on, they didn’t make it Patong too often.

So my point is that this development has undoubtedly led to a better standard of living and quality of life for local people. However, could this development be better controlled and managed? I don’t need answer that question.

You gave it yourself in the Beer-Poll thread already, where you frown upon beer-drinkers, right?

I don't see a genuine improvement for the locals in general.

Quality of life?

before they go the fish from the sea, now they have to earn money to buy it, for highly inflated prices, on the market...as with so many other things...

Edited May 12, 2008 by Samuian

[Huey]

The only place I have seen damaged over the 7 years I have been here, is Pattaya when they lifted the visa restrictions for Russians. It has definitely went down hill ever since.

[burman]

And before that it was of course paradise.

[Jefferson]

The only place I have seen damaged over the 7 years I have been here, is Pattaya when they lifted the visa restrictions for Russians. It has definitely went down hill ever since.

That's a ridiculous statement..

But then again, I should probably be mindful as to what some people consider 'down hill' in relation to Pattaya.. More than a few people don't actually want it to continue to develop into a family friendly beach resort town...............................

[PeaceBlondie]

Thais rightly take pride in the fact that their land has never (exactly, more or less) been colonized (other than by Asians). Foreigners cannot really own land, and can hardly own buildings. Thais control Thailand.

I warned them, in my first public speech in Thailand, in late 2003, not to allow Thailand to go Western. Too late, and they did not heed my advice (most of them were provincial English teachers who did not understand me). Their country, their fault, not ours.

You can't go home. They paved paradise. If you call someplace paradise, you'd better kiss that place goodbye or sawadee.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

It seems to be Thailand is not alone in the going down hill. Visit somewhere then go back in 10 or 20 years for the most part I don't think it will be as good as you remember it. Recently visited the US after having not been there for 9 years and it had definitely gone down hill. Singapore is not as nice as it was 10 years ago either.

Now days I think it is just a fact of life that things change fast and not for the better much of the time. But keep in mind some day 2008 will be the good old days for some people.

[Andrew Hicks]

I've been here in Thailand for coming up to two decades and in that time I've seen major changes within the country. Let me add that I live in a provincial Thai town, way off the worn down tourist trail. When I first arrived here, it was pretty much me, me alone, the only westerner there. Now, there are well over 100 westerners in this town, most of whom are teachers ....

In the tourist areas it is far worse. Phuket I remember as once being so beautiful with quiet beaches and friendlier people, Khoa Lak was pretty much deserted, Khokroi an empty beach, Aunang quiet and peaceful. I'm not even going to mention Koh Samui/Chang etc (haven't been up north for a while but I imagine it is the same in popular places). All have gone downhill in my opinon, the beauty has been lost, forever maybe and replaced with overpriced condos, unplanned or ill-thought building projects, gawdy bars, greedy locals, greedy western business owners etc etc fed by forever busier roads and an ever growing population.

My question is; Are we, the foreign residents/visitors here (unwittingly maybe?) helping to destroy what we came here for? I believe it is because of our presence, that we are. If there have been this many changes in the time I've been here, what changes in the coming decades.

Any comments?

We are simply watching the process of change. While the primary responsibility for the negative consequences falls on the Thais, the visitor too should be aware of the impact of his being there.

The Thais have always been good at courting the more powerdul foreigner, keeping the colonial French and British at arms length and signing the Bowring Treaty, accomodating the Japanese when it looked as if they might be the new power in the East and then of course going with the Americans.

The current economy is now based on inward investment and tourism and both of these carry huge risks and inevitably those risks are now being realised. I see the over-development of Koh Chang as a recent example of the headlong scamble for the tourist dollar.

Sell yourself soul and body to the foreigners, destroy your environment and allow your culture to be submerged in a tide of fast food and militant materialism if there's a fast buck to be made. THe Thais love dancing but how often do you see their classical dance?

That's modernisation, urbanisation. They call it progress!

Have they now had enough of sufficiency? It's a little sad and we are inevitable a part of it, passive or otherwise.

We are here because we love those special qualities of their culture that they are desperately trying to ditch while they just want to be like us and have everything that we have.

Andrew

[mellow1]

Accusing foreigners of destroying Thailand is streatching it a bit, the evidence on the ground is that the Thais are doing a pretty good job by themselves.

However, I think a case can be made that Thailand destroys more than a few foreigners.

Agree completely, would include greed of the citizens.

[Galong]

I warned them, in my first public speech in Thailand, in late 2003, not to allow Thailand to go Western. Too late, and they did not heed my advice (most of them were provincial English teachers who did not understand me). Their country, their fault, not ours.

Thank you Paul Revere for warning the Thais about us.

FYI, there are a LOT of good things about the West that this country could certain benefit from... such as human rights, an efficient and less corrupt police force, school that actually teach students, a judicial system that doesn't discriminate (usually ), etc.

I live in Phuket Town and in the past year there have been dozens upon dozens of boring shop houses built in areas that used to be vacant. These are almost entirely bought/rented by Thais.

And, every time I go out mountain biking in Phang Nga Province (and I go at least twice a week) I hear chainsaws, see illegal fires and see clear-cut land.

How much of the original jungle is in tact? Almost all of it was cleared to plant rubber tree and oil palms. How much of the mangrove is left? Much if it was cleared to build prawn farms. So, if you're talking about how Nature has suffered, you can honestly point right at the locals.

If you're talking about touristy areas, you can blame that on several groups, including the locals.

BTW, my landlord was attempting to burn a massive pile of trash right beside my house yesterday. Most of the trash was plastic! I went out with a bucket of water and put the fire out. I told him I'd call the cops on him if he started it back up again. he could have gotten some of the Burmese laborers who work for him to take the trash to the landfill, but that'd be a bit more work.

Sorry, but Thais don't fart sunshine and poop rainbows. They're just as responsible for the mass destruction of this land as anyone. Many will do whatever it takes to make money... but then again, many people from every nation think the same way.

[Payboy]

Are Foreigners Destroying Thailand?

that would fall under the list of occupations prohibited to foreigners under the alien business act - category "b" chapter 1 - occupations involving national safety or security; and possiblity chapter 2 as well ....occupations affecting arts, culture, etc....

Edited May 12, 2008 by Payboy

[Nignoy]

Here are my first views of the bay that is now, Jomtien and Pattaya , notice no have bars or bargirls, no concrete buildings but the lao khao flowed free and not a single piece of <deleted> in the bay, whale sharks, manta,s were a common sight, there was even the occasional septic passing through, so you tell me what is better Nignoy

The house being built is the first british house in pattaya 1964, no planning permission or limited company needed justafew cases of compo for the puyai baan,

The bar is the first one in Pattaya

[howmuch]

Wikipedia "crown property bureau" Makes interesting reading..

[moo9]

I've been here in Thailand for coming up to two decades and in that time I've seen major changes within the country. Let me add that I live in a provincial Thai town, way off the worn down tourist trail. When I first arrived here, it was pretty much me, me alone, the only westerner there. Now, there are well over 100 westerners in this town, most of whom are teachers ....

In the tourist areas it is far worse. Phuket I remember as once being so beautiful with quiet beaches and friendlier people, Khoa Lak was pretty much deserted, Khokroi an empty beach, Aunang quiet and peaceful. I'm not even going to mention Koh Samui/Chang etc (haven't been up north for a while but I imagine it is the same in popular places). All have gone downhill in my opinon, the beauty has been lost, forever maybe and replaced with overpriced condos, unplanned or ill-thought building projects, gawdy bars, greedy locals, greedy western business owners etc etc fed by forever busier roads and an ever growing population.

My question is; Are we, the foreign residents/visitors here (unwittingly maybe?) helping to destroy what we came here for? I believe it is because of our presence, that we are. If there have been this many changes in the time I've been here, what changes in the coming decades.

Any comments?

It is the bitter fact, that globalization, including industrial development and increasing tourism is causing (besides additional local income) many side effects.

But it would be wrong to blame foreigners for it. It is a global problem, supported by the international finance and investing institutions.

Where money can be made, it will be made and people involved in this, never care about other things.

Rgds

Moo9

[qwertz]

I don't think the foreigners are responsible for the scruffy streets, millions of miles of carelessly hung overhead cables, pollution, stray

animals, smelly drains and primitive toilets, I could go on but I think that's a broad outline.