Siko In Thailand

[Huey]

I had picked up Michael Moore's documentary entitled "SiKO" a month or so back but just got around to watching it today..twice, once alone and once with my wife (Thai). I have lived outside the US for 7 years now, but I didn't think I was that out of touch, I didn't think it was THAT bad. We were both stunned and appalled by what we saw and we got to talkin about how the health care system is here in Thailand. So far I'm pretty impressed, I would say the Value for Money ratio in the health care system..and note I call it a "system" here not a Industry like it is in the US, is probably pound for pound the best you can find, even more than say food or accommodation.

Comments?

[cluezo]

Although not as good as the USA, Thailand has excellent health care. And a lot cheaper!!!

[h90]

Although not as good as the USA, Thailand has excellent health care. And a lot cheaper!!!

I think price is part of the quality. If the price is that high that most people can't get it, the overall quality is lower than a lower quality service which everyone can get. Thats very difficult to discuss, because also depends on the income of the people. Than it is differs how the differences between rich and poor is.

So very difficult

[cluezo]

Although not as good as the USA, Thailand has excellent health care. And a lot cheaper!!!

I think price is part of the quality. If the price is that high that most people can't get it, the overall quality is lower than a lower quality service which everyone can get. Thats very difficult to discuss, because also depends on the income of the people. Than it is differs how the differences between rich and poor is.So very difficult

As it is in virtually every country in the world.

[Travel2003]

Should not put EU as one group.

Scandinavia which is part of EU (not Norway) is on top of the Health care systems in the world.

But some of the newer member nations in EU, which is former Eastern European countries have a long way to go before they reach the Scandinavian level.

Different systems as well.

You have the more social democratic systems (as in many western Europe nations).

Then you have the systems where there are plenty of excellent private hospitals.

And then one have the countries which cant afford a good system at all.

Although I am not American, I have seen Michael Moore's documentaries. You have to take it for what they are. He is out to "angle" everything in a negative way. His mission is actually to make USA look bad. I can only imagine how disliked he must be in his home country.

[thaigene2]

I agree (amazingly) with h90 that you can't really tell from your poll (well intentioned though) to compare Thailand with the health care in our home countries. Is Australia, UK, Canada system comparable?

They offer access to all - for everything - right? Maybe you'll need to wait - but you won't pay. And, esp in Canada/UK, if you need major help now you'll get it. If you need elective surgery you probably need to wait for it - but still free.

Thailand may be cheaper than the USA and other Arab/Asian countries - so for them the answer is probably "yes" Thailand rocks - but maybe they should fight for a better system in their own counrties? Their loss - shame on the USA in particular. Maybe the elxn in November will change things - finally - hope best for them.

[mommysboy]

Although not as good as the USA, Thailand has excellent health care. And a lot cheaper!!!

I think price is part of the quality. If the price is that high that most people can't get it, the overall quality is lower than a lower quality service which everyone can get. Thats very difficult to discuss, because also depends on the income of the people. Than it is differs how the differences between rich and poor is.So very difficult

As it is in virtually every country in the world.

Interesting that most participants of the vote came from UK or Europe. Is this repesentative of interest in the topic or country of origin of membership?

Being a mommysboy I'm fantastically spoilt and well cossetted as you can imagine. I tend not to get ill because Mum looks after me. I also never drink alcohol and am in bed b4 9.30 every night. I do not approve of the sleep around crowd.

My girl sure spoils me too as I'm handsome, I met her on a rare trip to one of thoise city bars.

[Travel2003]

Although not as good as the USA, Thailand has excellent health care. And a lot cheaper!!!

I think price is part of the quality. If the price is that high that most people can't get it, the overall quality is lower than a lower quality service which everyone can get. Thats very difficult to discuss, because also depends on the income of the people. Than it is differs how the differences between rich and poor is.So very difficult

As it is in virtually every country in the world.

Interesting that most participants of the vote came from UK or Europe. Is this repesentative of interest in the topic or country of origin of membership?

Being a mommysboy I'm fantastically spoilt and well cossetted as you can imagine. I tend not to get ill because Mum looks after me. I also never drink alcohol and am in bed b4 9.30 every night. I do not approve of the sleep around crowd.

My girl sure spoils me too as I'm handsome, I met her on a rare trip to one of thoise city bars.

Yes most woters come from EU area, because there has been only 4-5 voters so far.

In regards to rest of your post.

I fail to see what your mommy and gf have to do with the subject.

As English is not my first language and I sometimes can not find the right words, I just have to say..................... .........huh???

;-)

[thaigene2]

Although not as good as the USA, Thailand has excellent health care. And a lot cheaper!!!

I think price is part of the quality. If the price is that high that most people can't get it, the overall quality is lower than a lower quality service which everyone can get. Thats very difficult to discuss, because also depends on the income of the people. Than it is differs how the differences between rich and poor is.So very difficult

As it is in virtually every country in the world.

Interesting that most participants of the vote came from UK or Europe. Is this repesentative of interest in the topic or country of origin of membership?

Being a mommysboy I'm fantastically spoilt and well cossetted as you can imagine. I tend not to get ill because Mum looks after me. I also never drink alcohol and am in bed b4 9.30 every night. I do not approve of the sleep around crowd.

My girl sure spoils me too as I'm handsome, I met her on a rare trip to one of thoise city bars.

Yes most woters come from EU area, because there has been only 4-5 voters so far.

In regards to rest of your post.

I fail to see what your mommy and gf have to do with the subject.

As English is not my first language and I sometimes can not find the right words, I just have to say..................... .........huh???

;-)

Forget it. He/She is a troll.

[Huey]

Sorry if anyone felt some how left out if their nation was not listed. Just put it there to get a general idea and really to keep the focus more on how Thailand ranks in comparison to other spots. And as for Micheal Moore, like so many other things in the States its easy to ask 10 people how they feel about the same thing and get 10 different answers. I for one Love him and the work he dose. I love my country too but I refuse to be blind to her faults, nor blind to the boons of other nations.

But anyway, that being said, I brought my Aunt and my Mom in for my wedding this past January and my Aunt had a stroke the first day she arrived. I took her to Burmingrad and put her up in their first class suite room. She received excellent care far better than what her miserable lil blue cross/blue shield would have afforded her, and the staff were genuinely competent and caring. Now I'm no medical practitioner to judge these things, but my Mom was there with her the whole time and she is a Registered Nurse with 10 Years experience. She said for the care she received at Burmingrad which I paid $1200 would have easily cost $70,000 -$100,000 back in the States and furthermore because my Aunt has poor insurance she would have never even gotten access to this treatment. fortunately the stroke was minor and she was on her way in just a couple days. But that really got me to Thinking when I saw that Documentary today and started putting the pieces together. I Bet pound for Pound Thailand has the more humane and patient friendly system when compared to the US.

[mrtoad]

I think we are comparing apples to oranges.

My experience of Thai Health Care in the general field has been favourable, but it has been private sector. I'm pretty certain though, that there are limitations on what is availbale to patients on point of entry depending on med cover. In the UK you will normally get the required treatment in emergency without worrying about if you are elligable. It's a pretty grey area anyway, as financial assesments IMO opinion contravene Nurses and Doctors professional codes of conduct.

As regards to other clinical fields I have my doubts, about what is available to people with Mental Illness and other less highlighted services.

[thaigene2]

Sorry if anyone felt some how left out if their nation was not listed. Just put it there to get a general idea and really to keep the focus more on how Thailand ranks in comparison to other spots. And as for Micheal Moore, like so many other things in the States its easy to ask 10 people how they feel about the same thing and get 10 different answers. I for one Love him and the work he dose. I love my country too but I refuse to be blind to her faults, nor blind to the boons of other nations.

But anyway, that being said, I brought my Aunt and my Mom in for my wedding this past January and my Aunt had a stroke the first day she arrived. I took her to Burmingrad and put her up in their first class suite room. She received excellent care far better than what her miserable lil blue cross/blue shield would have afforded her, and the staff were genuinely competent and caring. Now I'm no medical practitioner to judge these things, but my Mom was there with her the whole time and she is a Registered Nurse with 10 Years experience. She said for the care she received at Burmingrad which I paid $1200 would have easily cost $70,000 -$100,000 back in the States and furthermore because my Aunt has poor insurance she would have never even gotten access to this treatment. fortunately the stroke was minor and she was on her way in just a couple days. But that really got me to Thinking when I saw that Documentary today and started putting the pieces together. I Bet pound for Pound Thailand has the more humane and patient friendly system when compared to the US.

Hi Huey - Don't be offended by the above - ask a question, you get a response.

But you are now asking a much more specific question. In my view, I'd much rather be in Thailand - with the lovely Thai people taking care of me than my own home country in many ways - though not ultimately perhaps - But that doesn't answer the question of public health care for the many - only for the few at Bumrumgrad - which in my view is ok - but it's not the greatest. Bumrumgrad has a 'rushed feel' to it - running you thruogh a bunch of tests you don't need simply cause your insured for it.. Not a professional way of dong things - just a profitable way of doing things. I don't like that - and prefer a couple of the other BKK private hospitals instead...

[Travel2003]

Update from my wife.

She is slamming the health system here.

Especially up in Isaan where there are no bigger private hospitals.

And we are now talking about a region with 1/3 of the population (pls correct me if Im wrong about the number).

The hospital staff is simply ignoring most of the poorer patients, just to kiss ass for the more Hi-So (or locally famous) patients.

They are on borderline to neglecting most of the patients, she claims. They just dont give a dam_n. The staff is more busy with impressing each other (superiors) when they are around.

She just gave me 4 different stories about how her family or friends have been threated in the public hospitals.

I remember when my father in law died last autumn of TB. He had been going with it for more then a year. He went to the Doctor and hospitals several times, just to be sent home again the same day. Every time!!!!

Until I sent him to a private hospital, where they diagnosed him immediately with TB. All too late as he passed away just a few days later.

Several Doctors and hospitals for more then a year, with TB. And nobody takes any action.

I was not impressed.

[Jingthing]

I have no access to health care in the US (for many years now). It is one of the main reasons I moved to Thailand. I can afford basic health insurance but no insurance company would sell me any except for maybe 5000 USD per month. For people with access, the US is better. But any access is better than no access.

Culturally, US doctors (again, if you have one) are better than Thai doctors. US doctors expect you to ask them questions (if you are an educated person) and challenge their opinions. Thai doctors tell you the way it is, hand you the pills, and seem to be insulted by too many questions.

Edited June 7, 2008 by Jingthing

[cloudhopper]

The docs here are (like most people who are educated here IMO) not particularly skilled in the cognitive arts. So diagnosis is not a strong point, and because the docs take full advantage of the Thai reluctance to question any type of real or imagined authority are rarely challenged. The very best docs and hospitals here are as good as those in the US though, and health care here is FAR easier to access and pay for.

[PeaceBlondie]

Some of the health care in Thailand is excellent, if you go to a major hospital, get treated by specialists who had residencies in the West, can afford the more expensive treatments, etc. So, for expatriates with good insurance or deep pocketbooks, you have your hospitals like Bumringrad, Samitivej in Bangkok, Chiang Mai Ram and Sripat in CMai, and various private clinics where the doctors are very good. But you can really get some incompetent care, as well. At least it's cheap, and when the care is competent, the value is incredibly good.

Common folks, however, have very poor care. Every country has its horror stories. My health insurance provider has a long list of medically under-serviced areas in the USA, most of them rural areas.

[bratpack]

I have just renewed my private medical and the expat one has increased from 11,500 baht to over 16,000 baht.Got a quote from axa and it was 2000 baht cheaper for the same cover.Not that saving 2,000 baht is that exciting but i wasnt prepared to carry on with the other medical due to a 50% increase.

[webtv]

a little off track...

I use healthcare.tv for preliminary diagnosis and then go to the doctors or hospital. I have found here in Thailand, if you dont know exactly what your ailment is, it becomes expensive in time and money to try and find the actual problems.. At least you turn up at the appointment with a better understanding of what might be the cause.

I am not affiliated with healthcare.tv, I just think it should be known that it is available. A great help.

Edited June 8, 2008 by webtv

[thaigene2]

The docs here are (like most people who are educated here IMO) not particularly skilled in the cognitive arts. So diagnosis is not a strong point, and because the docs take full advantage of the Thai reluctance to question any type of real or imagined authority are rarely challenged. The very best docs and hospitals here are as good as those in the US though, and health care here is FAR easier to access and pay for.

That's pretty much the way I see it too. Also webtv's idea of self-diagnosis is something I do a lot too - the Internet helps a lot with that. I try to narrow it down, then follow the same steps he does. Another way to find a more pro-active doctor here is to go the list of names in Bumrungrad, Siriraj and Vichayut then google their names to see if they've ever done any of their own thinking - in medical journals, conferences etc.

[Prakanong]

Some aspects of my job involve assessing Dr's in various Asian countries - having said that though this is skewed as we are looking for KOL's (Key opinion leaders) and how well these people perform clinical trials ie to GCP and how quick is recruitment and patient retention.

Thailand comes out near the top in Asia for this but we only deal with the top Dr's

On a personal level I have had a mixed bag in Thailand but have only been to Bumrungrad - upcountry you should really take care.

[GuestHouse]

what I have to say here is based on personal experience. A while back I spent 12 weeks in what is regarded as one of Thailand's best hospitals, almost six weeks in intensive care, when recovered enough to travel I was medicact back to the UK. It was my experience that the Thai medical care was 'clinically' good but failed on all other fronts with respect to the emotional care of a seriously I'll patient and importantly the provision of information to me and my family. The care I received in theUK NHS on the otherhand was 'complete' and absolutely first rate....it was also FREE.

My experience prompted me to become a hospital volunteer when I returned to Thailand where i'm sad to say I saw repeated cases of mismanagement of patient care.. And in one case the refusal of treatment to a young Irish guy after a rosas accident, his parents there to witness what happens when their son had no insurance and they themselves could not pay.

Have a look around and you'll find reports of malpractice in the big name Thai hospitals together with legal moves to gag anyone who has a complaint.

On my experience I would advise: get the best insurance you can afford.

Always get a second opinion

if you have need of serious medical care get yoiself home.

I really mean it when I say God bless the NHS.

[beammeup]

The docs here are (like most people who are educated here IMO) not particularly skilled in the cognitive arts. So diagnosis is not a strong point, and because the docs take full advantage of the Thai reluctance to question any type of real or imagined authority are rarely challenged. The very best docs and hospitals here are as good as those in the US though, and health care here is FAR easier to access and pay for.

That's pretty much the way I see it too. Also webtv's idea of self-diagnosis is something I do a lot too - the Internet helps a lot with that. I try to narrow it down, then follow the same steps he does. Another way to find a more pro-active doctor here is to go the list of names in Bumrungrad, Siriraj and Vichayut then google their names to see if they've ever done any of their own thinking - in medical journals, conferences etc.

I agree also. My son was diagnosed with dengi fever. I lookied it up on the net and found that the only way they can properly diagnose it is to take blood samples during then compare those samples to blood taken afterwards. They never did the followup samples, I will never know if he really had it. He likely only had the flu. they put him on a drip and within a few days his temp was back to normal. There is also no specific treatment although we got a ton of medication including anti-biotics, which we threw into the drawer with the hundreds of other bottles of (expensive) meds we never used. Its always a bone of contention between the wife and I she believes whatever thet tell her without question.

[Huey]

what I have to say here is based on personal experience. A while back I spent 12 weeks in what is regarded as one of Thailand's best hospitals, almost six weeks in intensive care, when recovered enough to travel I was medicact back to the UK. It was my experience that the Thai medical care was 'clinically' good but failed on all other fronts with respect to the emotional care of a seriously I'll patient and importantly the provision of information to me and my family. The care I received in theUK NHS on the otherhand was 'complete' and absolutely first rate....it was also FREE.

My experience prompted me to become a hospital volunteer when I returned to Thailand where i'm sad to say I saw repeated cases of mismanagement of patient care.. And in one case the refusal of treatment to a young Irish guy after a rosas accident, his parents there to witness what happens when their son had no insurance and they themselves could not pay.

Have a look around and you'll find reports of malpractice in the big name Thai hospitals together with legal moves to gag anyone who has a complaint.

On my experience I would advise: get the best insurance you can afford.

Always get a second opinion

if you have need of serious medical care get yoiself home.

I really mean it when I say God bless the NHS.

Yeah sadly lobbies from evil faceless murdering HMOs and others have too much stroke in my country. I wish we had a NHS too. Oh well... anyway, I guess Thailand then is a lil better in access and MUCH cheaper for equivalent care then the US. But still if your poor, your toast.

I guess for me personally I prefer Thailand. And as for Burmingrad giving a "rushed" feeling giving you tests you don't need just because your insured for, I didn't see that because my Aunt was uninsured I paid cash.

And speaking of Insured, Anyone been insured here locally? Is the cost of insurance here reasonable?

[thaigene2]

And speaking of Insured, Anyone been insured here locally? Is the cost of insurance here reasonable?

See post #17. However, like all insurance policies of any nature, bear in mind that the devil is in the detail. If they can find a reason NOT to pay, you can bet they will take that route. The worst that happens to them is you try to sue them - a bit difficult if you're serious ill, had a stroke, a heart attack, cancer, etc..

[Gary A]

I think Michael Moore is a waste of air and a poor excuse for a human being. His "WORK", is self serving to make himself wealthy. Back on topic, there are good doctors and bad doctors. Thailand has both and so does every other country. The US is has a major lawyer problem that has driven the cost of care totally out of sight.

[samran]

I think Michael Moore is a waste of air and a poor excuse for a human being. His "WORK", is self serving to make himself wealthy. Back on topic, there are good doctors and bad doctors. Thailand has both and so does every other country. The US is has a major lawyer problem that has driven the cost of care totally out of sight.

whatever your views are of him, and he does have his fair share of cringeworthy moments, the fact of the matter is that he hit the nail on the head with this one.

I'm an economist, and health economics is one are of interest.

The first thing that you learn in economics 101 is competitive markets = good and that monopoly = bad, with the latter having higher prices than the first.

What most people don't understand is that doctors as a group, are monopolists, and left unchecked (like they are in the US) they soon charge what they d@mn well like. It isn't as if you can easily go somewhere else.

Most governments in the world realise this so they use various methods to control the prices that doctors can charge for their services, and make those services available to whoever need them, given that having a healthy workforce is a heck of a lot cheaper than having a sick or underpeforming one.

They either do this by nationalising the 95% of the system like they do in the UK, or allow private doctors/operators to work in a system where prices for medicines and services are controlled, like in Australia. In both cases, doctors are still some of the best paid professionals around, who generally live in the best suburbs, drive the nicest cars and send their kids to the best schools.

At the end of the day, Americans pay ALOT more for the SAME service that say an Australian would. As a result, as a proportion of GDP, the US tends to outspend everyone when it comes to health costs.

The AMA (the only UNION representing doctors in the US) likes to run scare campaigns by describing health care in the rest of the world as some sort of throwback to communist times. This couldn't be further from the truth.

That we pay our health 'premiums' via taxation is true enough, but given the cheaper cost of provision, our health tax bill is a heck of alot less than the private health premiums that are paid in the US by individuals.

[Huey]

I think Michael Moore is a waste of air and a poor excuse for a human being. His "WORK", is self serving to make himself wealthy. Back on topic, there are good doctors and bad doctors. Thailand has both and so does every other country. The US is has a major lawyer problem that has driven the cost of care totally out of sight.

What ever you think of our Patriots, the fact of the matter is I believe our citizens deserve better, at least on par with what British or French citizens receive, don't you think we are entitled to that as US Citizens? I mean really, look at the cost of medicines, here. Yes people here make less money but the reason the drugs are cheaper is because they are generics, banned in the US because big Pharms paid off our politicians to keep generics largely out of the market place. How many people, US citizens, would be alive today if they could have afforded the drugs they needed as opposed to just putting it off until it was too late because they couldn't afford the designer drugs they push in the States?

[Huey]

I think Michael Moore is a waste of air and a poor excuse for a human being. His "WORK", is self serving to make himself wealthy. Back on topic, there are good doctors and bad doctors. Thailand has both and so does every other country. The US is has a major lawyer problem that has driven the cost of care totally out of sight.

whatever your views are of him, and he does have his fair share of cringeworthy moments, the fact of the matter is that he hit the nail on the head with this one.

I'm an economist, and health economics is one are of interest.

The first thing that you learn in economics 101 is competitive markets = good and that monopoly = bad, with the latter having higher prices than the first.

What most people don't understand is that doctors as a group, are monopolists, and left unchecked (like they are in the US) they soon charge what they d@mn well like. It isn't as if you can easily go somewhere else.

Most governments in the world realise this so they use various methods to control the prices that doctors can charge for their services, and make those services available to whoever need them, given that having a healthy workforce is a heck of a lot cheaper than having a sick or underpeforming one.

They either do this by nationalising the 95% of the system like they do in the UK, or allow private doctors/operators to work in a system where prices for medicines and services are controlled, like in Australia. In both cases, doctors are still some of the best paid professionals around, who generally live in the best suburbs, drive the nicest cars and send their kids to the best schools.

At the end of the day, Americans pay ALOT more for the SAME service that say an Australian would. As a result, as a proportion of GDP, the US tends to outspend everyone when it comes to health costs.

The AMA (the only UNION representing doctors in the US) likes to run scare campaigns by describing health care in the rest of the world as some sort of throwback to communist times. This couldn't be further from the truth.

That we pay our health 'premiums' via taxation is true enough, but given the cheaper cost of provision, our health tax bill is a heck of alot less than the private health premiums that are paid in the US by individuals.

Good point and well said thank you.

[jfk]

I had picked up Michael Moore's documentary entitled "SiKO" a month or so back but just got around to watching it today..twice, once alone and once with my wife (Thai). I have lived outside the US for 7 years now, but I didn't think I was that out of touch, I didn't think it was THAT bad. We were both stunned and appalled by what we saw and we got to talkin about how the health care system is here in Thailand. So far I'm pretty impressed, I would say the Value for Money ratio in the health care system..and note I call it a "system" here not a Industry like it is in the US, is probably pound for pound the best you can find, even more than say food or accommodation.

Comments?

got mugged in my local town, elbow dislocated, bit drunk.

went to hospital,they operated on me and kept me there for the night.

cost only 4000 baht- excellent.

only problem was when i was admitted guy took my bag with mobile and credit card to keep safe for me and then it disappeared. rang my mobile a few days later and someone answered!

[Huey]

I had picked up Michael Moore's documentary entitled "SiKO" a month or so back but just got around to watching it today..twice, once alone and once with my wife (Thai). I have lived outside the US for 7 years now, but I didn't think I was that out of touch, I didn't think it was THAT bad. We were both stunned and appalled by what we saw and we got to talkin about how the health care system is here in Thailand. So far I'm pretty impressed, I would say the Value for Money ratio in the health care system..and note I call it a "system" here not a Industry like it is in the US, is probably pound for pound the best you can find, even more than say food or accommodation.

Comments?

got mugged in my local town, elbow dislocated, bit drunk.

went to hospital,they operated on me and kept me there for the night.

cost only 4000 baht- excellent.

only problem was when i was admitted guy took my bag with mobile and credit card to keep safe for me and then it disappeared. rang my mobile a few days later and someone answered!

Man they would practically have to put me under before I let someone take my bag. Like you I keep everything in there I would be messed up if I lost that. Sorry I hope you get it back and who ever stole your bag suffers.