At Least 78 Die After Thailand Riot

[katyusha]

contained and restrained prisoners do not constitute a threat and should have been treated with some human respect and dignity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A soldier must obey any direct order except one which is clearly criminal or is in clear violation of the rules of engagement, in which case he or she is obliged to refuse to obey that order.

If I'd ordered my team to seek out and shoot any Pattani rioter who was carrying a weapon then they would have obeyed me without question, but if I'd ordered them to stack prisoners 10 deep in the backs of trucks then I'm sure they would have realized that prisoners on lower levels could be injured or killed and would have faced me down. I can confidently say this because my guys are well trained and combat experienced. They would have remained calm, and would have been thinking clearly.

From what I saw on TV, some Thai soldiers seemed to have lost control of their anger. This was probably "rubber band rage", which can follow intense fear. When the tide of battle turns, fear can give way to relief, which can give way to rage and the all-consuming desire to lash out and kill someone. Then you've lost it. Then you become a wild animal. Those same soldiers may have been afraid for their lives only a few minutes earlier.

The way "rubber band rage" sodiers would have seen it, they'd won against overwhelming odds and the ragheads were on the run. In their euphoric state of mind they wouldn't have given the possibility that prisoners buried 10 deep under the bodies of other prisoners might suffer injury or death a second thought.

Those 78 deaths are a tragedy that should never have happened, but shit does happen, and "murder", "the wilful and deliberate and premeditated unlawful taking of human life", is an inaccurate term for this particular shit.

[ThaiGeared_HighThaied]

contained and restrained prisoners do not constitute a threat and should have been treated with some human respect and dignity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A soldier must obey any direct order except one which is clearly criminal or is in clear violation of the rules of engagement, in which case he or she is obliged to refuse to obey that order.

If I'd ordered my team to seek out and shoot any Pattani rioter who was carrying a weapon then they would have obeyed me without question, but if I'd ordered them to stack prisoners 10 deep in the backs of trucks then I'm sure they would have realized that prisoners on lower levels could be injured or killed and would have faced me down. I can confidently say this because my guys are well trained and combat experienced. They would have remained calm, and would have been thinking clearly.

From what I saw on TV, some Thai soldiers seemed to have lost control of their anger. This was probably "rubber band rage", which can follow intense fear. When the tide of battle turns, fear can give way to relief, which can give way to rage and the all-consuming desire to lash out and kill someone. Then you've lost it. Then you become a wild animal. Those same soldiers may have been afraid for their lives only a few minutes earlier.

The way "rubber band rage" sodiers would have seen it, they'd won against overwhelming odds and the ragheads were on the run. In their euphoric state of mind they wouldn't have given the possibility that prisoners buried 10 deep under the bodies of other prisoners might suffer injury or death a second thought.

Those 78 deaths are a tragedy that should never have happened, but shit does happen, and "murder", "the wilful and deliberate and premeditated unlawful taking of human life", is an inaccurate term for this particular shit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you trying to say soldier should be like farang fxxing automated machine?

[katyusha]

A soldier! Ultimately trained to kill, and follow orders whether they are right or wrong!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I said this in another post a few minutes ago; "A soldier must obey any direct order except one which is clearly criminal or is in clear violation of the rules of engagement, in which case he or she is obliged to refuse to obey that order."

You obviously have never seved in the military and have no idea what it's all about.

People with your mentality threw blood at my father when he returned from Vietnam. He walked away.

Let me know if you would like to throw blood at me next time I'm in Thailand. I won't walk away.

[katyusha]

I've just watched the video of the incedent,

i don't back these people at all but the way they died was tragic

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was.

It should not have happened.

If the soldiers had been more experienced, it probably would not have happened.

Where do we go from here ? Should we crucify the soldiers because their emotions were in a mess and they were not thinking clearly enough to prevent this tragedy, or should we just crucify Thaksin Shinawatra for this and everything else that's wrong with Thailand ?

[ThaiGeared_HighThaied]

Usually Brave soldiers like you serve in front line only,

how come you are still with us in this forum?

[katyusha]

I'm a highly trained professional soldier. I've been in Timor, Afghanistan (twice), and Iraq, and patrolled the Thai/Burma border.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I doubt it. Or your tour of duty against "unruly mob of ragheads waving clubs and machetes" has impaired your judgement.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're definitely better at defending your AIDS spreading paedophile countrymen than you are at spreading the raghead gospel sTROLL.

As more information comes to light it becomes clear that a number of those "unarmed demonstrators" were carrying AK-47s and pistols, and a couple of the cheeky buggers even brought M-16s stolen from the Thai military last month to the party, so perhaps "terrorists" isn't so far off the mark.

Can you provide a link to this 'information', or is it based on your 'professional judgement' to regard rioting youth as 'terrorists', deserving to die?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't believe everything you read on Al Jazeera sTROLL.

Perhaps I get my information from better sources than you, but I imagine all will be revealed in the fullness of time.

The rioters were found in possession of or discarded at the scene;

21 assorted pistols

5 AK-47s

2 M-16s

3 hand grenades

A pile of assorted clubs and knives

Remember, you read it here first!

Oh, by the way, put some THOUGHT into your responses in future, or piss off and annoy someone else. You're starting to bore me with your stupidity.

[stroll]

Where do we go from here ? Should we crucify the soldiers because their emotions were in a mess and they were not thinking clearly enough to prevent this tragedy, or should we just crucify Thaksin Shinawatra for this and everything else that's wrong with Thailand ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To demand that people are held responsible for their actions is not the same as crucifying them for all the wrongs in the world. Most people do not think the way you do about blame and punishment, not against rioting youth, not against Muslims, and not against police and army negligence and mistreatment of prisoners. There is a wide range of legal and acceptable measures available, being guilty does not always result in the accused and all their peers being shot dead.

Can the intellect of a highly trained and experienced military commandress like yourself grasp such complex issues?

[ThaiGeared_HighThaied]

katyusha, are you a torjan?

[Darknight]

You may not like me or what I do for a living sTROLL, but while you're tucked up safe and warm in your bed,

People like you who i would call brainwashed soldiers.... fight for the country..... save the US honour ... bla bla bla

Are probably the reason why we DON'T sleep safe in our beds anymore

No war has ever been won, only lost on all sides.....

[george]

Has Thailand Lost Its Conscience?

The violent crackdown on Muslim protesters in Narathiwat's Tak Bai district on Monday, which resulted in several deaths during a bloody clash at the scene of the protest and the subsequent loss of scores more lives after more than 1,300 people, mainly young men, were rounded up and put in the army's custody, has been met with what can only be described as widespread public apathy.

The relative lack of a public response to this glaring example of state-sponsored violence is reminiscent of the ambivalent public reaction to the news that the Thaksin administration's anti-drug campaign had left more than 2,000 suspects dead in its wake, including many victims of extra-judicial killings.

It comes as no surprise that both the Tak Bai crackdown, which resulted in more than 80 deaths, and the war on drugs were both authorised by Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

In both instances, the Thaksin administration showed a total disregard for the most basic human rights guaranteed by the Constitution to all Thai citizens, regardless of their ethnicity or religion.

If the prevailing public opinion is any guide, then Thaksin obviously got away with the bloody crackdown on drug traffickers. It is not yet clear how well or how badly he will fare in the wake of the Tak Bai incident.

Most of the protesters had been observing the Ramadan fasting period and were therefore prone to severe dehydration and exhaustion, yet they were given neither food nor drink after being arrested.

Prisoners, all of them with their hands tied behind their back, were packed - many stacked up horizontally, several people deep - into military vehicles and heavy trucks. As a result, many of them suffocated or were crushed to death while being transported to an army barracks in Pattani for interrogation.

It is not an exaggeration to say that cattle being delivered to the slaughter house are provided better conditions and more humane treatment.

The circumstances leading to this catastrophe remain sketchy and could not be independently confirmed a few days after the tragic and preventable deaths were allowed to happen under the watch of the Fourth Army.

The gross incompetence and total absence of professionalism in the handling of the protesters on display here cuts straight to the heart of the army's supposed commitment to restoring peace in the restive Muslim-majority southernmost provinces by winning the hearts and minds of the locals while working to weed out Islamic militancy through military means.

At this point, it would matter little if some of the arrested protesters turned out to be known Islamic militants who had committed or been involved in the flare-up of murder and terror that has raged in the South. Even the most vicious and evil of terrorists are entitled to due process of law and a fair trial.

These deaths fly in the face of the military's code of conduct, which demands that civilians and enemy combatants alike be treated humanely. This is of course to make no mention of the imperatives of common human decency.

Instead of initiating an independent inquiry into this tragic incident, General Sirichai Thanyasiri, who is in charge of the military command in the Muslim South, on Wednesday appointed senior government officials and army and police officers to determine whether any wrongdoing had been committed leading to the deaths of so many of the protesters in the Fourth Army's custody.

This thinly veiled charade of justice is a fresh affront to the already grieving local Muslim population, which will naturally want a full explanation of what happened to its loved ones. They expect to see that justice is done, wrongdoers punished, their loss compensated and, above all, that the Thaksin administration make a sincere and unreserved public apology.

Without waiting for the outcome of the internal investigation, Prime Minister Thaksin has had the nerve to extend his forgiveness to all military personnel involved, casually dismissing the deaths of the protesters in captivity as an "unfortunate accident".

The prime minister also appeared unperturbed by the chorus of international condemnation, saying instead that Thailand could explain away what happened simply as an internal affair.

Most conspicuous, however, has been the absence of public outrage in this country over the brutal treatment of the Tak Bai protesters. Only a handful of human rights advocates have made any noise.

In a predominantly Buddhist country that ascribes to itself such noble attributes as compassion, respect for the sanctity of life and tolerance, the silence of the voice of conscience is deafening.

--The Nation/ANN 2004-10-28

[stroll]

Without waiting for the outcome of the internal investigation, Prime Minister Thaksin has had the nerve to extend his forgiveness to all military personnel involved, casually dismissing the deaths of the protesters in captivity as an "unfortunate accident".

Let's wait how casually he will extend his forgiveness to the Muslims in Pattani after a batch of "unfortunate accidents" in central Bangkok.

[katyusha]

To demand that people are held responsible for their actions is not the same as crucifying them for all the wrongs in the world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So who do you suggest we hold responsible ? The soldiers who lost it and let prisoners die because they were too inexperienced to consider the possible consequences of their actions ? The Thai army for not having a combat veteran to put in charge to hold it all together ? The army psychologists who didn't predict emotional breakdown in troops who felt their lives were under threat ? Yourself for not bravely standing between the soldiers and the rioters waving a white flag and brokering a peace treaty ?

[katyusha]

You may not like me or what I do for a living sTROLL, but while you're tucked up safe and warm in your bed,

People like you who i would call brainwashed soldiers.... fight for the country..... save the US honour ... bla bla bla

Are probably the reason why we DON'T sleep safe in our beds anymore

No war has ever been won, only lost on all sides.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you a consciencious objector, or just a coward ?

[stroll]

Katyusha is still online?

How much time has she got allocated to spread propaganda on the net by her renegade strikeforce unit. Shouldn't she be in the field hunting down ragheads with a paintgun by now?

P.s. I am the consciencious objector, Darknight will shoot back.

[katyusha]

Has Thailand Lost Its Conscience?

In a predominantly Buddhist country that ascribes to itself such noble attributes as compassion, respect for the sanctity of life and tolerance, the silence of the voice of conscience is deafening.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe the people of this predominantly Buddhist country have run out of compassion, respect for the sanctity of life, and tolerance, and no longer care about the fate of those who belong to the same faith as the raghead lunatics who crash planes into buildings and bomb nightclubs and embassies and hack the heads off screaming hostages on TV and murder Buddhist monks and policemen in their own back yard.

[Darknight]

You may not like me or what I do for a living sTROLL, but while you're tucked up safe and warm in your bed,

People like you who i would call brainwashed soldiers.... fight for the country..... save the US honour ... bla bla bla

Are probably the reason why we DON'T sleep safe in our beds anymore

No war has ever been won, only lost on all sides.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you a consciencious objector, or just a coward ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm an enlightened person...

Has Thailand Lost Its Conscience?

In a predominantly Buddhist country that ascribes to itself such noble attributes as compassion, respect for the sanctity of life and tolerance, the silence of the voice of conscience is deafening.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe the people of this predominantly Buddhist country have run out of compassion, respect for the sanctity of life, and tolerance, and no longer care about the fate of those who belong to the same faith as the raghead lunatics who crash planes into buildings and bomb nightclubs and embassies and hack the heads off screaming hostages on TV and murder Buddhist monks and policemen in their own back yard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Had about enough of these rantings...... Bearpit bearpit bearpit

[katyusha]

I'm an enlightened person...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

5555555555555555555555555555555

[stroll]

Had about enough of these rantings...... Bearpit bearpit bearpit

Katy doesn't want to play with the grownups...

[katyusha]

Katy doesn't want to play with the grownups...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I surrender Captain Tampon.

Your witty repartee is just too much for me.

[JemJem]

Well.....I will continue to counter them here in the forum with my words.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You counter NOTHING JimJim, because no-one cares what you think.

Your best move would be to leave Thailand and go live in a nice happy country where you can freely espouse your seditious and treasonous support for raghead terrorist "underdogs" against awful "anti-Muslim" people like me without fear of being beaten or killed by police or soldiers. Good luck finding one where you don't have to grow a beard and dress Sunnah and make Salaah 5 times a day if you don't want to risk being beaten or killed by police or soldiers, you stupid little man.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't be so sure.....I am quite sure that except your fellow-bigots of the forum, most of the people here consider not me but YOU as the 'stupid little man'. You just cannot come up with rational and respectful posts so you come up with personal insults.

Anyway......I am humanist and logical enough to be able to distinguish between ISLAMIST EXTREMISTS and ORDINARY MUSLIMS. The thing is that none of the many Muslims I have personally known are of the Islamist extremist type.....nor do they sympathise with such fanatics.....and, some of them are regular booze drinkers You'll possibly try to counter by saying that they should not be considered as Muslims....tell that to them.......they consider themselves as Muslims all the way but they prefer not to obey every single thing that their holy book writes.

Oh...and I know many countries with a Muslim majority where only few people do the stuff you wrote above. In countries such as Bosnia, Turkey and the Central Asian republics, many aspects of life are as modern as the countries in the so-called 'West'.

You are very much of a 'right-wing paramilitary' type of person and you are full of hate.....and you should know that you cannot get far in arguments here with your simplistic and often false or exaggreated generalisations.

Jem

[marquess]

I said this in another post a few minutes ago; "A soldier must obey any direct order except one which is clearly criminal or is in clear violation of the rules of engagement, in which case he or she is obliged to refuse to obey that order."

You obviously have never seved in the military and have no idea what it's all about.

People with your mentality threw blood at my father when he returned from Vietnam. He walked away.

Let me know if you would like to throw blood at me next time I'm in Thailand. I won't walk away.

My position is a simple one, perhaps to simple for the likes of you to understand, but I will try anyway. Soldiers are not missionaries, they are there to obey and carry out the orders of their superiors. Whilst I have the greatest respect for those who are actually defending their country from invasion (as I would be quite happy to do myself) thugerry and domination with a weopon in your hand is another thing.

[katyusha]

You are very much of a 'right-wing paramilitary' type of person and you are full of hate.....and you should know that you cannot get far in arguments here with your simplistic and often false or exaggreated generalisations.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're a stupid little man JimJam.

A VERY stupid little man.

[Darknight]

I vote TROLL now...... BAn kathy, BAN BAN BAN........

[katyusha]

My position is a simple one,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would have to be.

That's all your mind is capable of handling.

[katyusha]

BAn kathy, BAN BAN BAN........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, take the coward's way out.

[JemJem]

Katyusha (a.k.a. rod kalashnikov)...if you think you can argue rationally, counter the serious stuff that I wrote in my last post...not just pick one line or paragraph and call me names.

Jem

[marquess]

t would have to be.

That's all your mind is capable of handling.

Speak for yourself

In Omnia Paratus

[katyusha]

Katyusha (a.k.a. rod kalashnikov)...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are an EXTREMELY stupid little man, JumJum.

if you think you can argue rationally, counter the serious stuff that I wrote in my last post...not just pick one line or paragraph and call me names.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the "humanist" crap you espouse was worthy of comment then I would comment.

It's not, so I won't.

When it's someone else's son or daughter I'm a "right wing paramilitary type" and "full of hate", but if it was your son or daughter being threatened with decapitation by raghead terrorists you would be down on your miserable knees begging me or someone just like me to do whatever it takes to rescue him or her, up to and including nuking Iraq.

Go and have one of your faces amputated you stupid little man.

[katyusha]

t would have to be.

That's all your mind is capable of handling.

Speak for yourself

In Omnia Paratus

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"In Ominous Apparatus" would be more appropriate in your case, Major Dildo.

I doubt that you're prepared for anything outside your tiny grey existence.

[guran]

[

When it's someone else's son or daughter I'm a "right wing paramilitary type" and "full of hate", but if it was your son or daughter being threatened with decapitation by raghead terrorists you would be down on your miserable knees begging me or someone just like me to do whatever it takes to rescue him or her, up to and including nuking Iraq.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Isn't it a coincidence that there was not a single decapitation in Iraq until Katy and his mates turned up ??

He actually appears to think that he has done some good !

Pity him !