Who's At Fault?

[jaideeguy]

How many times have you almost hit a stupid lazy motorcyclist going the opposite direction on the hiway???? I see it many times a day and when they almost get whacked, they just smile.

Wife tells me that the motorcyclist has the 'right of way' in all situations when a car is involved.....even if they are at fault. can anyone confirm??

[dumball]

How many times have you almost hit a stupid lazy motorcyclist going the opposite direction on the hiway???? I see it many times a day and when they almost get whacked, they just smile.

Wife tells me that the motorcyclist has the 'right of way' in all situations when a car is involved.....even if they are at fault. can anyone confirm??

reasonably simple,which one is the Thai?

[samran]

make sure you have first class insurance and call them the second anything happens. Their guys come out and assess the situation to determine who was in the right/wrong.

[seagull]

Over here in LOS, I have learned that right can be wrong, and likewise, wrong can also be right. Take your pick and chok dee!

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi

Been there, done that. At night, coming out of a soi, wanting to turn right. There was a left-bend curve to my left, so i looked for traffic there (none), then right (straight road) - none, so i pulled out. Around the curve, on THE WRONG SIDE OF THE ROAD, came a speeding motorbike without lights on it (none present - not just "not working"!) and crashed into the front left of my Volvo, between wheel and door. The guy flew clean over the car and landed in the bushes to my right, his bike was completely destroyed and my car had major damage to the body (front fender, left front door, hood, front bumper).

Guy crawls out of the bushes, unable to walk straight - not because of injuries but because he had at least a bottle of whiskey in him! Started making a scene.

I called my insurance (first class), and a guy who lived in a house nearby and heard the crash called the cops. Cops and insurance guy arrived roughly at the same time, some 15 minutes later.

I explained the accident to the insurance guy, then that motorbike driver did, then the insurance guy talked to the cops. They had a good look at the scene, determined (via the amount of damage done) that the bike must have done at least 100 km/h, there were no lights present, the bike had neither license plate nor papers or insurance and the driver was drunk, had no license and was traveling on the wrong side of the road.

AND THEN I HAD TO PAY!! Because i "entered a main road and thereby caused the accident"!!

My insurance guy negotiated with cops and that bastard and in the end they all agreed on 3.000 Baht. The insurance would cover both my car and the bike, tre money was for the fact that "he needs his motorbike to get to work and now he can't work for two weeks until his bike is repaired". What a load of BS (i fixed mine, equally totaled, in a day).

So, 3k isn't much but being cheated out of it like THAT hurts. They could have told me straight that the accident was my fault because i wasn't supposed to be at that corner at that time but instead was supposed to be in my home country! (And i wished i would have BEEN in my home country and that idiot would have kissed a truck instead).

Morale? as a Farang, it's your fault, regardless which direction and where on the road the bike was traveling on.

Best regards......

Thanh

[torrenova]

Hi

Been there, done that. At night, coming out of a soi, wanting to turn right. There was a left-bend curve to my left, so i looked for traffic there (none), then right (straight road) - none, so i pulled out. Around the curve, on THE WRONG SIDE OF THE ROAD, came a speeding motorbike without lights on it (none present - not just "not working"!) and crashed into the front left of my Volvo, between wheel and door. The guy flew clean over the car and landed in the bushes to my right, his bike was completely destroyed and my car had major damage to the body (front fender, left front door, hood, front bumper).

Guy crawls out of the bushes, unable to walk straight - not because of injuries but because he had at least a bottle of whiskey in him! Started making a scene.

I called my insurance (first class), and a guy who lived in a house nearby and heard the crash called the cops. Cops and insurance guy arrived roughly at the same time, some 15 minutes later.

I explained the accident to the insurance guy, then that motorbike driver did, then the insurance guy talked to the cops. They had a good look at the scene, determined (via the amount of damage done) that the bike must have done at least 100 km/h, there were no lights present, the bike had neither license plate nor papers or insurance and the driver was drunk, had no license and was traveling on the wrong side of the road.

AND THEN I HAD TO PAY!! Because i "entered a main road and thereby caused the accident"!!

My insurance guy negotiated with cops and that bastard and in the end they all agreed on 3.000 Baht. The insurance would cover both my car and the bike, tre money was for the fact that "he needs his motorbike to get to work and now he can't work for two weeks until his bike is repaired". What a load of BS (i fixed mine, equally totaled, in a day).

So, 3k isn't much but being cheated out of it like THAT hurts. They could have told me straight that the accident was my fault because i wasn't supposed to be at that corner at that time but instead was supposed to be in my home country! (And i wished i would have BEEN in my home country and that idiot would have kissed a truck instead).

Morale? as a Farang, it's your fault, regardless which direction and where on the road the bike was traveling on.

Best regards......

Thanh

I've heard variations on this story and I can state that I would have given the little shit bugger all. I'd have gone after him for loss of no claims unless he paid for all my repairs and for a hire car.

After years here I am sufficiently pissed off with the "farang can pay" attitude of both the Thais and the westerners who then complain but keep sucking up to these parasites just to live in their country.

He was drunk, get him to a hospital and have his blood alcohol level checked and you get the paperwork not plod or it will go missing. Then he is in the wrong and nothing can help him.

[Bagwan]

Agree with the immediately above post. Make a fuss. Tell the cops you want to take it up with the duty officer - or his Colonel. Plod hates coming to the attention of the big boss. It makes him look incompetent, which he is of course.

How much of the 3K went to the cop, I'm thinking.

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi.

At that time i had no idea what to do with that situation, as my Thai was very limited, my knowledge of laws was equally limited (that was like 5 years ago!) and i had the 3k in my pocket, so yeah, i guess i filed it under "lesson learned - next time, if the car is still driveable, make a runner". Lucky there wasn't a "next time". Just this Monday another motorbike rear-ended me (i was on my motorbike) and caused some 800 Baht damage, the guy again had neither insurance nor money and all the cop could do was drag both of us to the station where that guy would probably have been locked away for a few days - that's what my boyfriend translated for me. However that guy in the slammer wouldn't pay my repairs and, despite being pissed off, i let him go, he was a bike messenger, they sure don't make much and have to drive recklessly to keep schedules or whatever.

However back then, so much i saw with my own eyes, that guy that ran into me received all 3.000 Baht, stuffed it into his pocket, climbed onto the back of a pickup (his friend who arrived there just for the purpose of collecting him and the leftovers of his bike) and disappeared while the two cops were still talking to my insurance guy and i hadn't yet signed the papers. Cop didn't get a Satang.

Nowdays i am thinking that if someone runs into me in a situation that could somehow be twisted to make it look like it's my fault, i will simply do what many Thais do - do a runner. In any other case i'll insist on cops. I got hit with the car twice and so far three times on the bike (bike rear-ended me, taxi hit my side, another bike rear-ended me) in 6 1/2 years activity on Thai roads and about 90k kilometers. Both car accidents were covered by MY insurance (the first one, a truck that hit my left (again!) side while we were both turning right, was not insured either - i seem to be a magnet for those, or Thais really don't have insurance, generally??), the first bike incident created zero damage and the taxi HAD insurance, which would care for my bike - if i was able to get the spare part.....

Best regards.....

Thanh

[Insight]

Thanks for sharing the story Thanh-BKK - interesting read.

I had a bit of a jaw-dropper driving down Prakanong around 8pm of a Sunday afternoon with my wife in the passenger seat. The road was quite quiet, but it's still a fairly narrow soi for the amount of traffic it carries and is not as well lit as it should be.

Out of nowhere a push bike appeared on our side of the road, going the wrong way and heading straight towards us. Needless to say completely without lights. Done a last split-second turn and managed to dodge him/her. Gave the usual "arai-wa?" beep of the horn/road rage afterwards.

That's when my wife tells me that if I hit the bike it would of been my fault so I should be more careful in future.

...

"How the frig do you work that one out???" I ask inquisitively. Logic is simple apparently, and it's not because Johnny Farang is behind the wheel. It's down to the car being bigger than the bike, therefore it's up to the driver of the bigger vehicle to drive it more responsibly. Somehow. That's how the police would view it, that's how any witnesses would view it, and it's probably how the person on the bike would view it if they're still with us. No lights and being on the wrong side of the road on a major BKK road are minor technicalities.

It can get a bit silly on these roads at times...

[Crushdepth]

How many times have you almost hit a stupid lazy motorcyclist going the opposite direction on the hiway???? I see it many times a day and when they almost get whacked, they just smile.

Many times I've seen the outline of a bike spray painted on the road by the insurance guys - pointing the wrong way!

[Crossy]

It's down to the car being bigger than the bike, therefore it's up to the driver of the bigger vehicle to drive it more responsibly. Somehow. That's how the police would view it, that's how any witnesses would view it, and it's probably how the person on the bike would view it if they're still with us. No lights and being on the wrong side of the road on a major BKK road are minor technicalities.

It can get a bit silly on these roads at times...

Please get your lady to explain how this fits with the 'bigger vehicle has right of way' "rule"

Likewise, it never fails to amaze me what the most vunerable road users (motorcyclists and pushbikers) do. Back home these people are incredibly careful as the know they can die easily. Here they happly whizz through red lights and expect you to see them (no lights) and avoid them. Grrrrrrrr.

No lights and being on the wrong side of the road on a major BKK road are minor technicalities.

you forgot to add 'out of their tree on sangsom and/or yabba whilst talking/texting and making a roll-up'. Edited June 18, 2008 by Crossy

[PattayaParent]

I had an accident in Pattaya when an idiot in a jeep T-boned me coming out of a side road as I was waiting to turn right into it.

INsurance man kept coming to me telling me the police say it's my fault, I kept sending him back saying it wasn't, the guy that ran into me even admitted fault at the scene but i wasn't his jeep and the owner didn't have insurance.

Eventually the police said it's the other giys fault and fined him. Just refuse to accept responsibility, and acrrying a digital camera in the car, or having a camera on your 'phone would be handy too.

[Moonrakers]

The motorbikes out here drive me nuts as not only do I want to be forking out for somebody elses mistake, but I also don't want to be 'responsible' for somebodys death.

Some of the things that they do are simply idiotic, drunk or not.

For example: Should I be on a motorbike, and the car in front is indicating to turn left then simple logic would tell me that the car will soon be turning left right??? and so passing on that side would be a bad idea right??? I am a careful driver and 'touches wood' I have not had an accident yet.

And why oh why do parents not teach their kids about road safety? I was in Pattaya once and was driving along a side road, not fast, just about 20kmh. On the left of the road was a young kid on a bike, and out of nowhere he decided to cross the road right in front of me. I slammed on the brakes and screeched to a halt and narrowly missed the boy.

The thing is that watching the event was a women whom I presume to be a family member and what did she do..... <deleted> ALL is what she did. Had it been my daughter then she would have got a rollicking for being so careless, not to mention playing on a road in the first place. She scolded him eventually though as I got out of the car and screamed at her for it.

[Martian]

Hi

Been there, done that. At night, coming out of a soi, wanting to turn right. There was a left-bend curve to my left, so i looked for traffic there (none), then right (straight road) - none, so i pulled out. Around the curve, on THE WRONG SIDE OF THE ROAD, came a speeding motorbike without lights on it (none present - not just "not working"!) and crashed into the front left of my Volvo, between wheel and door. The guy flew clean over the car and landed in the bushes to my right, his bike was completely destroyed and my car had major damage to the body (front fender, left front door, hood, front bumper).

Guy crawls out of the bushes, unable to walk straight - not because of injuries but because he had at least a bottle of whiskey in him! Started making a scene.

I called my insurance (first class), and a guy who lived in a house nearby and heard the crash called the cops. Cops and insurance guy arrived roughly at the same time, some 15 minutes later.

I explained the accident to the insurance guy, then that motorbike driver did, then the insurance guy talked to the cops. They had a good look at the scene, determined (via the amount of damage done) that the bike must have done at least 100 km/h, there were no lights present, the bike had neither license plate nor papers or insurance and the driver was drunk, had no license and was traveling on the wrong side of the road.

AND THEN I HAD TO PAY!! Because i "entered a main road and thereby caused the accident"!!

My insurance guy negotiated with cops and that bastard and in the end they all agreed on 3.000 Baht. The insurance would cover both my car and the bike, tre money was for the fact that "he needs his motorbike to get to work and now he can't work for two weeks until his bike is repaired". What a load of BS (i fixed mine, equally totaled, in a day).

So, 3k isn't much but being cheated out of it like THAT hurts. They could have told me straight that the accident was my fault because i wasn't supposed to be at that corner at that time but instead was supposed to be in my home country! (And i wished i would have BEEN in my home country and that idiot would have kissed a truck instead).

Morale? as a Farang, it's your fault, regardless which direction and where on the road the bike was traveling on.

Best regards......

Thanh

After thinking about this story, I painfully came to the conclusion that the end decision is PROBABLY correct. Anytime you enter into a traffic flow, you are responsible for doing so in a safe manner, even if someone is going the wrong way on a one-way street, with no lights and speeding. I am sure this is the basic premise for traffic law, even in the united states. So, with that understanding, you are responsible for the accident and should receive a ticket. The second part of it is that you could go after the cyclist in a civil court, given the circumstances.

Yes, most Thais believe that if you are in a car or truck and collide with a motorcycle, you should pay. My Thai wife says that. In my two accidents with motorcycles (driving wrongly) I simply said lets get our licenses and insurance papers out and call the police to make a report. At that point the cyclists apologized and went on their way. It does pay to have the correct documentation on you at all times.

Martian

[Pushit]

Always been the same, motorcycle hits you it's your fault..

[torrenova]

Why do some of you keep bending over to get shafted like this ?

I got rear ended by a bike with an underage kid and no license nevermind no insurance. Everyone wanted me to claim on my insurance but sod that. Why lose my no claims when I'm not at fault ? hel_l, I was stationary ! They pleaded poverty but didn't want Mr Plod there either so they agreed to pay. Dealer fix up job, not Somchai either. fuc_k them, you hit me, you pay. I hit you, my insurance pays. No insurance ? I'll have you in jail.

[jubby]

If it the Motorbikes fault, its the Motorbikes Fault, even in Thailand Law. ....................................... but its never implemented that simply ...

My Friend had an incident with a few motorbikes last year at night on a country road. they were all over him, he was with his thai wife and thought he was being hijacked . One shot across in front of him, the guy went head over heels over the truck luckily , and not under it. The others dispersed. he stopped but the guy limped away and was picked up by another one. They reported it to the police and insurance. They found out that it was a youth and his mates playing some sort of chicken, drugs , who knows. investigation proved that it was the motorcyclists fault.

can't remeber wether they were insured or not.

He got his truck fixed by insurance no problem.

It was suggested to him that he 'leave it' as the youth was the son of some local mafia big shot.

Another interesting incident (at least to me) was when a friend stopped his motorbike at the side of the road late at night to take a leak. he left it running with the lights on. Along came a pickup and launched the motorbike into the ditch and carried on. Hit and run.

Along came a guy who had witnessed the incident, clutching the number plate of the vehicle which had fallen off in the incident.

They went to the local police station the next morning to report it. Someone had already given himself up and came clean, maybe it was the number plate. Anyway it was settled 'out of court' sort of thing. He got his motorbike fixed with a bit of cash left over due to the inconvenience. The BIB , ooops sorry , I meant to say other guy had been drinking and was very sorry. Nice , don't you think ;-)

[chivo]

no doubt driving here is a risky endeavor.

in the west, those of us who drive carefully do so because we all fear increased insurance premiums, expensive fines from law enforcement, super expensive lawsuits, and most of all the fear that you take or injure human life.

i think the best strategy is: number 1- to be ultra cautious driving anywhere in thailand. don't be afraid to run your headlights 24/7 (even tho the thai's will flash you that you 'forgot' to turn your lights off!- at least they are noticing your presence!).

honk your horn loudly and often before taking a blind turn or entering and intersection at night, as you slow...

be patient. this is key. take a breath and let the angst of the road go. don't be afraid to pull over and give a speed demon the right of pass. he'll be of your back and you gain nothing by purposely holding him back. if you are being tailgated where you can't do anything, keep flashing your break lights.

if you do get into an accident, stand your ground, but be calm and polite. call any thai puyay you know. if it seems to be going against you and its not your fault- call your farang friends and have them come down to the scene of the accident. have them all start taking photos of the accident, the perpetrator, AND the police! get everyone on their cell phones as if they are calling people. tell them you are calling newspapers, embassies, your friend who is a cop, a politician, etc. introduce your friends as a lawyer, a writer for bangkok post etc. extreme? maybe.

remember that whilst they may be very corrupt and greedy, ultimately and predominantly the police are lazy. they want their money but they don't want to work for it. if you carefully and politely make it difficult for them you may prevail.

[imaneggspurt]

Always been the same, motorcycle hits you it's your fault..

Absoluty correct ,. if you had been in your own country it wouldnt have happened

[torrenova]

Just coming back to this and some people, not just on this thread, think that the police actually make the law. They apply the law, wrongly when it suits, but even in Thailand, they do not make the law.

[jts-khorat]

How many times have you almost hit a stupid lazy motorcyclist going the opposite direction on the hiway???? I see it many times a day and when they almost get whacked, they just smile.

Wife tells me that the motorcyclist has the 'right of way' in all situations when a car is involved.....even if they are at fault. can anyone confirm??

At least you have the ease of mind, if you whack on of those guys it will be their blood on the street and your car only with scratches. As I know that I am in the right morally (and following the law as I know it), I guess I also would not shed many tears afterwards about the 'victim'.

In general I am a defensive and careful driver. But this is one of the situations where I trust my 1st class insurance and that the bike driver breaking the law drives at least artfully, as I will not drive defensively for their benefit, even less so if they have chosen to disrespect their (and maybe their full families') health by driving without a helmet.

In the end it is their karma (and mine), whatever happens will!

[jts-khorat]

where that guy would probably have been locked away for a few days - that's what my boyfriend translated for me. However that guy in the slammer wouldn't pay my repairs

You are quite wrong there; it was explained to me that party in the wrong might have to stay in jail until he can cough up the money (or the damage is discounted at THb 50/day, so even a few hundred Baht becomes a stretch in the slammer). And usually a settlement will be found in not too short a time!

Not being a lawyer, not sure this is right. But putting hardship in the other party -- even just as a threat -- is a very good negotiation tactic with 'poor' Thais; it might be very different in other parts of the country, but here on Phuket there will be a very good chance that anybody can cough up at least a few thousand Baht if he has to.

[tracer]

no doubt driving here is a risky endeavor.

i think the best strategy is: number 1- to be ultra cautious driving anywhere in thailand. don't be afraid to run your headlights 24/7 (even tho the thai's will flash you that you 'forgot' to turn your lights off!- at least they are noticing your presence!).

********************

I seem to have heard that new bikes have lights on 24 h/d as its the law.

********************

OK, I am hear about 23 years. I spend before that around 10 years driving in Europe. Never had an accident.

In Thailand: MANY

Obviously everyone blames me but I drive careful, I LOOK, I have lights on ALL DAY...

In January this year the last one: Car with DOUBLE trailer (A LONG ONE) behind it.

Phukets roads aren't made for those cars!! Not much I could do as car disappeared and I was on the ground.

[sunsamourai]

simple logic would tell me that the car will soon be turning left right???

I 'touch wood' I have not had an accident yet.

Well, that pretty sums it all... Globalj got it right left !!!

If you dont want to have an accident, forget about driving the way you USED TO somewhere else, just get local, go with the flow :

when you want to turn left, get your signal to the right ; change lanes as much and as carelessly as possible ; slow down to 10 km/h on major roads ; look on the left when you turn right ; accelerate when somebody tries to get in front of you ; U-turn on 4 lanes roads ; turn off your lights at night ; buy a truck ; drive on the opposite lane (very fun indeed) ; get drunk, etc etc...

Well actually, lets just make it simple : buy a truck and get drunk !

++ ^^

[piewarmer]

simple logic would tell me that the car will soon be turning left right???

I 'touch wood' I have not had an accident yet.

Well, that pretty sums it all... Globalj got it right left !!!

If you dont want to have an accident, forget about driving the way you USED TO somewhere else, just get local, go with the flow :

when you want to turn left, get your signal to the right ; change lanes as much and as carelessly as possible ; slow down to 10 km/h on major roads ; look on the left when you turn right ; accelerate when somebody tries to get in front of you ; U-turn on 4 lanes roads ; turn off your lights at night ; buy a truck ; drive on the opposite lane (very fun indeed) ; get drunk, etc etc...

Well actually, lets just make it simple : buy a truck and get drunk !

++ ^^

I had to stop at a green light to let a motorcycle complete an illegal turn

it was a major intercection, 11pm at night. the guy was on his mobile

totally absorbed in his conversation...

he had no helmet, but he was wearing his police uniform.

[junkofdavid2]

Post withdrawn... not about counterflow.

Edited June 11, 2009 by junkofdavid2

[deprogrammed]

[

Always been the same, motorcycle hits you it's your fault..

Absoluty correct ,. if you had been in your own country it wouldnt have happened

[/quote

This is the law in Arab countrys - maybe this is why the Arabs drive like Thais.

Edited June 11, 2009 by deprogrammed

[babuhavas]

How many times have you almost hit a stupid lazy motorcyclist going the opposite direction on the hiway???? I see it many times a day and when they almost get whacked, they just smile.

Wife tells me that the motorcyclist has the 'right of way' in all situations when a car is involved.....even if they are at fault. can anyone confirm??

reasonably simple,which one is the Thai?

i second that

[basjke]

Well I can tell you when I see a motorbike coming in the wrong direction I keep my pick up at the far right side of the road and start flashing my lights,same with the attitude they have,especially here in pattaya,when coming out of a right side soi and driving to almost the middle of the road where they stop.If I see them waiting at that point I go straight for them and start flashing my lights.

Of course I keep my head with it and are ready to avoid a collision at the last second but actually it's funny to see the movements they make to get out of the way.

At the end I don't f_cking care for a second if I should drive over one of them who comes the wrong way.I always say to myself,this one will think again next time.

[andrisdg]

Thanks for sharing the story Thanh-BKK - interesting read.

I had a bit of a jaw-dropper driving down Prakanong around 8pm of a Sunday afternoon with my wife in the passenger seat. The road was quite quiet, but it's still a fairly narrow soi for the amount of traffic it carries and is not as well lit as it should be.

Out of nowhere a push bike appeared on our side of the road, going the wrong way and heading straight towards us. Needless to say completely without lights. Done a last split-second turn and managed to dodge him/her. Gave the usual "arai-wa?" beep of the horn/road rage afterwards.

That's when my wife tells me that if I hit the bike it would of been my fault so I should be more careful in future.

...

"How the frig do you work that one out???" I ask inquisitively. Logic is simple apparently, and it's not because Johnny Farang is behind the wheel. It's down to the car being bigger than the bike, therefore it's up to the driver of the bigger vehicle to drive it more responsibly. Somehow. That's how the police would view it, that's how any witnesses would view it, and it's probably how the person on the bike would view it if they're still with us. No lights and being on the wrong side of the road on a major BKK road are minor technicalities.

It can get a bit silly on these roads at times...

i wonder if in fact the road rules are based on the laws of the sea , with a special nod to davee jones locker of dead bodies , that is all powered or motorised boats give way to sail in all circumstances . so in t/land it would translate as the smallest always being sail and the largest is the culprit with the added liability bonus being falange were size is in material re the issue of fault.

the problem for falange is that like all people of whatever race or ethnicity we all bow down and kow tow to authority ,even corrupt authority because of the risks involved in questioning that authority .

but there are times to take a stand and call the bluff after all thai law enforced by the coppers has 2 aspects ,the written law based largely on a fee for service concept paid equally by the agrieved and the perpetrator , both the wife and husband pay a call out fee of 500bt to break up a domestic and the unwritten law were the fee to the cops is a stay out of jail fee plus 100% compensation to the victim. in the case of breaking and entering its is genaerally 5% of the value stolen goods

the good news is that in general these fees are standard and apply equally to all those involved .but the disturbing thing i have noticed is that in recent years that is not always the case and the fee gouger will sometimes adjust the fee to the percieved ability to pay .

this development is not confined to thailand as i have observed this also in loa and india and i suspect is becoming more common in whatever SE asia country one is in

the common rule is if you intend to pay for the convience of clearing the issue and moving on then even if the legal fee in law is 500 bt and you are in the right it is still negiotable as they dont need the hassles of the paperwork and potential loss of face that may involve

the risk you get a nutter in uniform at the scene in a out of the way place who has been involved in thaksins human rights abuses in the war on drugs successfully filling his quote of dead bodies , who still suffering post traumatic stress syndrome thinks he is the thai equivelent to dirty harry with a 007 licence to kill