(infant) Mortality From Motorbikes

[Herbs]

Ok - the title says it all. This is not intended to be morbid (sincere apologies if it upsets anyone) - and it is not intended in any way to be 'Thai bashing'. I'm also sure this has been covered before. I have lived in Thailand for a number of years, but have now left LOS.

I'm back briefly and again shocked by father holding six month old, on mobile phone, racing along with 3 older kids on the back. OK, they have got to get around, who am I to judge? But, it still shocks me. A slight bump - it is so horrific.

Surely this is a real issue that could be tackled? What is the mortality rate in Thailand? (apologies again for the sensitivity of this issue - I am genuinely curious and, more than anything, concerned)....

Edited June 22, 2008 by Herbs

[Super Hans]

I've wondered about this as well. There's absolutely NO WAY I'd have a kid of mine on a motorbike, period. I realise there may be a sense of necessity and no real choice, however. What always amazes me is how good the kids are at hanging on - the concentration of your average western 2 year old is negligible, but I see 2 year old over here grabbing the handlebars, seemingly happy as larry. Must be in the genes...

[bratpack]

not sensitive,getting used to it now.my view is thai ting tong,thai buddhism,thai not think.

BUT UP TO THEM

The only interest i have is for my family to be safe and try not to be involved with craziness.

[Briggsy]

Every time I see this, which is umpteen times every day, I think "Do they love their children?" I know it's an unfair question because many Thais don't consider risk. But if they truly love their children, how can they put them at such obvious risk of death or serious injury.

I discussed this very issue with a farang friend of mine just before his missus gave birth. And we shared the opinion that motorbikes were out totally. His missus agreed. He then discovered she was using the motorbike taxis in the soi with the very young baby (450m distance). It seems to be a mental balance between laziness (immediate comfort), expense (another short-term consideration) and risk (vague long-term consideration so ignored).

I just don't get it.

In answer to the OP's question, I doubt those stats are publicly available. They might not even be collected. They also might be difficult to collect as many deaths will occur upcountry where accurate info may be harder to come by as police may not attend all accidents and there may be an incentive to disguise the cause of death if, say, drunken driving was involved.

[bratpack]

When you see the tragic deaths on the thai roads i tend to get immune from it now,but feel angry at another WASTED DEATH

[Super Hans]

It's the laziness issue that gets me. When I was in Phuket, the maid at the guesthouse I was staying in would take her motobike to the market some 200 yards away - we once left the guesthouse at the same time and I'd beaten her there by quite some time. She'd sometimes have to park further away from the market than where she'd started from. It is beyond me why many places in thailand are not totally pedestrianised. Most places, in fact!

[Herbs]

Every time I see this, which is umpteen times every day, I think "Do they love their children?" I know it's an unfair question because many Thais don't consider risk. But if they truly love their children, how can they put them at such obvious risk of death or serious injury.

I discussed this very issue with a farang friend of mine just before his missus gave birth. And we shared the opinion that motorbikes were out totally. His missus agreed. He then discovered she was using the motorbike taxis in the soi with the very young baby (450m distance). It seems to be a mental balance between laziness (immediate comfort), expense (another short-term consideration) and risk (vague long-term consideration so ignored).

I just don't get it.

In answer to the OP's question, I doubt those stats are publicly available. They might not even be collected. They also might be difficult to collect as many deaths will occur upcountry where accurate info may be harder to come by as police may not attend all accidents and there may be an incentive to disguise the cause of death if, say, drunken driving was involved.

It does occur to me, to state the obvious, that these stats are collected in order to alert the population to the dangers. OK, on one level, boring statistics, but on another level a glaring warning: 'carrying your baby, you child on a motorbike is endangering their life'. Again I stress I do not intend to 'Thai bash', but we can still make general comments without causing offence. Any way, if it were to make a person think twice before carrying their little one, then all for the better.

It really has been one of the daily shocks, seeing the kid dangling from the motorbike, during our time here. Yes, one becomes numb, but, on returning to Thailand briefly, is something unimaginable in other parts of the world.

Are there no figures in general for road mortalities? I must admit that, from the Airport last week, with a very reliable taxi, I did not sleep in the early hours, after a very long flight - I just found the roads horrendous – why drive so close to the vehicle in front? I’m sure driving habits are as bad in other parts of the world...

[Super Hans]

Every time I see this, which is umpteen times every day, I think "Do they love their children?" I know it's an unfair question because many Thais don't consider risk. But if they truly love their children, how can they put them at such obvious risk of death or serious injury.

I discussed this very issue with a farang friend of mine just before his missus gave birth. And we shared the opinion that motorbikes were out totally. His missus agreed. He then discovered she was using the motorbike taxis in the soi with the very young baby (450m distance). It seems to be a mental balance between laziness (immediate comfort), expense (another short-term consideration) and risk (vague long-term consideration so ignored).

I just don't get it.

In answer to the OP's question, I doubt those stats are publicly available. They might not even be collected. They also might be difficult to collect as many deaths will occur upcountry where accurate info may be harder to come by as police may not attend all accidents and there may be an incentive to disguise the cause of death if, say, drunken driving was involved.

It does occur to me, to state the obvious, that these stats are collected in order to alert the population to the dangers. OK, on one level, boring statistics, but on another level a glaring warning: 'carrying your baby, you child on a motorbike is endangering their life'. Again I stress I do not intend to 'Thai bash', but we can still make general comments without causing offence. Any way, if it were to make a person think twice before carrying their little one, then all for the better.

It really has been one of the daily shocks, seeing the kid dangling from the motorbike, during our time here. Yes, one becomes numb, but, on returning to Thailand briefly, is something unimaginable in other parts of the world.

Are there no figures in general for road mortalities? I must admit that, from the Airport last week, with a very reliable taxi, I did not sleep in the early hours, after a very long flight - I just found the roads horrendous – why drive so close to the vehicle in front? I’m sure driving habits are as bad in other parts of the world...

A few minutes in Vietnam will have you pining for the safety of Thai driving. It is quite unbelievable over there. I saw a very young girl get knocked down by a bike the first day I was in Hanoi - she was flung about 20 feet, with everyone fearing the worst, not daring to look. She simply stood up, checked herself for broken bones and skipped off, no fuss no muss. I'd've cried for a month and demanded a helicopter and my own medical team. The way the Vietnamese just get on with things is remarkable. They are absolute nutters on the road, though.

[Heng]

I'm sure that most would prefer to have a sedan or truck with the kids buckled into a Japanese made car seat, but we can't all get what we want now can we?

[Herbs]

I'm sure that most would prefer to have a sedan or truck with the kids buckled into a Japanese made car seat, but we can't all get what we want now can we?

Do you have kids? Do you see how small their heads are?

With all respect, this is the kind of comment that makes my stomach turn....I was asking if there were figures, if people are aware what a massive problem it is, how many avoidable deaths are caused...

[dave111223]

I'm sure that most would prefer to have a sedan or truck with the kids buckled into a Japanese made car seat, but we can't all get what we want now can we?

Yes but surely they can afford the bus, or taxi, or some other (safer) form of transportation. Or at least just take 1 kid per time, not the whole family of 14, the dog and a weeks worth of groceries.

[RakJungTorlae]

I'm sure that most would prefer to have a sedan or truck with the kids buckled into a Japanese made car seat, but we can't all get what we want now can we?

Yes but surely they can afford the bus, or taxi, or some other (safer) form of transportation. Or at least just take 1 kid per time, not the whole family of 14, the dog and a weeks worth of groceries.

I have seen more then few times crashes involving infants with motor cycle, happily thou no fatalities. But the poor with kids few broken bones and some lost teeth. This is there culture now and they are aware of the dangers but life gose on.

[Heng]

I'm sure that most would prefer to have a sedan or truck with the kids buckled into a Japanese made car seat, but we can't all get what we want now can we?

Do you have kids? Do you see how small their heads are?

With all respect, this is the kind of comment that makes my stomach turn....I was asking if there were figures, if people are aware what a massive problem it is, how many avoidable deaths are caused...

Yes I do. And he's indeed buckled into his car seat when we are out and about. And with likewise respect, I'm not saying there isn't plenty of negligence going on out there. But in this particular category, I think criticizing a lot of these motorcycle folks is like going to an African village (or Thai village for that matter) with one well and criticizing how they should really be drinking chlorinated tap water with a hint of flouride.

[Heng]

I'm sure that most would prefer to have a sedan or truck with the kids buckled into a Japanese made car seat, but we can't all get what we want now can we?

Yes but surely they can afford the bus, or taxi, or some other (safer) form of transportation. Or at least just take 1 kid per time, not the whole family of 14, the dog and a weeks worth of groceries.

Again, no doubt there are often better options, but for plenty out there, there are far fewer options and often no other options whatsoever. It's easy to say what they *should* be doing and ignoring that other "safer" options may involve leaving kids at "home" in amphetimine infested slums, having 4 year olds "babysit" 1 year olds, etc....nevermind that a lot of folks can hardly afford their daily groceries (and hence need to be out everyday on "grocery" runs).

[jumnien]

The world over, countries which rely on motorbikes over cars are far more successful in procreating. Once people get cars they tend to get fat and happy and not have many kids

[Lickey]

I would think that this is the site the OP is looking for, and personally, i dont buy from street vendors, eat at a resturant before checking the toilets first, or ride my bike without a lid, and not take passengers without a lid, or ride on a bht bus because of the swirling exhaust fumes go straight into the back of the bus.

http://www.thaiwebsites.com/healthcare(2).asp

[moneyshot]

I think it comes down to the fact most Thai people do not consider risk at all.

"It wont happen to me" attitude...

Fair enough many families cant afford a car but to be on the phone whilst driving a scooter with four kids is just crazy! I wonder how the parent would feel after having an accident due to their plain stupidity.

[lazeeboy]

I would think that this is the site the OP is looking for, and personally, i dont buy from street vendors, eat at a resturant before checking the toilets first, or ride my bike without a lid, and not take passengers without a lid, or ride on a bht bus because of the swirling exhaust fumes go straight into the back of the bus.

http://www.thaiwebsites.com/healthcare(2).asp

you wont stop the thai's or the westerners for that matter from riding motorbikes without a helmet until you make the fines much higher,200b fine who cares,10000b and all will wear helmets ,only problrm is all the police would get rich very quick

[Heng]

I think it comes down to the fact most Thai people do not consider risk at all.

"It wont happen to me" attitude...

Fair enough many families cant afford a car but to be on the phone whilst driving a scooter with four kids is just crazy! I wonder how the parent would feel after having an accident due to their plain stupidity.

It's all relative. I do agree that talking on the phone while operating any vehicle is stupidity in motion, but then again so is having kids when all you own is a motorcycle, when you don't even own a home, when you don't have any idea or haven't even started to plan as to how you will pay for their education, when your own lack of financial planning means they will have to be slaves to financial institutions in the future, etc.

[jumnien]

Most Thais will die from overeating, most of the rest from smoking and drinking and carousing. Accidents are way down the list.

[Heng]

Ah yes, just had some good carousing this afternoon.

[Super Hans]

I would think that this is the site the OP is looking for, and personally, i dont buy from street vendors, eat at a resturant before checking the toilets first, or ride my bike without a lid, and not take passengers without a lid, or ride on a bht bus because of the swirling exhaust fumes go straight into the back of the bus.

http://www.thaiwebsites.com/healthcare(2).asp

you wont stop the thai's or the westerners for that matter from riding motorbikes without a helmet until you make the fines much higher,200b fine who cares,10000b and all will wear helmets ,only problrm is all the police would get rich very quick

I mentioned Vietnam's driving earlier, but it was noticeable that they virtually all wore helmets - I think because the penalties are quite severe.

[moneyshot]

I think it comes down to the fact most Thai people do not consider risk at all.

"It wont happen to me" attitude...

Fair enough many families cant afford a car but to be on the phone whilst driving a scooter with four kids is just crazy! I wonder how the parent would feel after having an accident due to their plain stupidity.

It's all relative. I do agree that talking on the phone while operating any vehicle is stupidity in motion, but then again so is having kids when all you own is a motorcycle, when you don't even own a home, when you don't have any idea or haven't even started to plan as to how you will pay for their education, when your own lack of financial planning means they will have to be slaves to financial institutions in the future, etc.

Agreed...

[moneyshot]

I would think that this is the site the OP is looking for, and personally, i dont buy from street vendors, eat at a resturant before checking the toilets first, or ride my bike without a lid, and not take passengers without a lid, or ride on a bht bus because of the swirling exhaust fumes go straight into the back of the bus.

http://www.thaiwebsites.com/healthcare(2).asp

you wont stop the thai's or the westerners for that matter from riding motorbikes without a helmet until you make the fines much higher,200b fine who cares,10000b and all will wear helmets ,only problrm is all the police would get rich very quick

I mentioned Vietnam's driving earlier, but it was noticeable that they virtually all wore helmets - I think because the penalties are quite severe.

I have spent some time in Vietnam, particularly HMC and they noticeably do not wear helmets. The driving is organised chaos, nobody ever slows down for a corner - only beeps to let others know their coming. Surprisingly it seems to work for the most part.

[Sakeopete]

I'm sure that most would prefer to have a sedan or truck with the kids buckled into a Japanese made car seat, but we can't all get what we want now can we?

I agree with you Heng most Thai can't afford a car/truck but what is the excuse for the ones who do own cars/trucks that don't buckle in themselves or their kids. See kids crawling all over the inside and outside of vehicles in BKK, even Benz/BMW s. What they can afford the car but not the child seat?

[Neeranam]

I must admit I take my 18 month old on my bicycle without a crash helmet or safety belt - she loves it.

We all have different safety standards.

[Heng]

I'm sure that most would prefer to have a sedan or truck with the kids buckled into a Japanese made car seat, but we can't all get what we want now can we?

I agree with you Heng most Thai can't afford a car/truck but what is the excuse for the ones who do own cars/trucks that don't buckle in themselves or their kids. See kids crawling all over the inside and outside of vehicles in BKK, even Benz/BMW s. What they can afford the car but not the child seat?

Again, it's all relative. What some/many Thais -and again, it all depends as for myself, I don't have a single friend -local or foreign- with kids that doesn't use their car seat(s)- lack in car safety they make up for in say lack of SIDS incidents. One might as well say why can't folks in other countries keep babies from dying in their sleep, when all that is needed is more attention given? I think a lot of times, people just want to criticize without looking at their own shortcomings.

[intumult]

I'm sure that most would prefer to have a sedan or truck with the kids buckled into a Japanese made car seat, but we can't all get what we want now can we?

Do you have kids? Do you see how small their heads are?

With all respect, this is the kind of comment that makes my stomach turn....I was asking if there were figures, if people are aware what a massive problem it is, how many avoidable deaths are caused...

If you - as many Thai people do not - have the money for a 4 wheeled vehicle then you are lucky.

Be realistic. most families cannot afford 4 wheels so they resort to 2 wheels.

Dangerous? Often. Fatal? Often too, I guess if they are involved in an accident. Yet these babies seem to be conditioned from birth to hang on and until the Thai people can afford 4 wheels they will continue in this fashion, sad as it may be to us Western Folk.

[Super Hans]

I would think that this is the site the OP is looking for, and personally, i dont buy from street vendors, eat at a resturant before checking the toilets first, or ride my bike without a lid, and not take passengers without a lid, or ride on a bht bus because of the swirling exhaust fumes go straight into the back of the bus.

http://www.thaiwebsites.com/healthcare(2).asp

you wont stop the thai's or the westerners for that matter from riding motorbikes without a helmet until you make the fines much higher,200b fine who cares,10000b and all will wear helmets ,only problrm is all the police would get rich very quick

I mentioned Vietnam's driving earlier, but it was noticeable that they virtually all wore helmets - I think because the penalties are quite severe.

I have spent some time in Vietnam, particularly HMC and they noticeably do not wear helmets. The driving is organised chaos, nobody ever slows down for a corner - only beeps to let others know their coming. Surprisingly it seems to work for the most part.

Yes, organised chaos sums it up well. When did you go? I've just come back from there and the majority seemed to be wearing helmets. I don't drive the foul things, so wasn't particularly taking notice, but I seem to remember thinking it was usual to wear them.

[Maigo6]

Every time I see this, which is umpteen times every day, I think "Do they love their children?"

there may be an incentive to disguise the cause of death if, say, drunken driving was involved.

No of course they don't love their children, they choose to have a motorcycle instead of a car and a child seat just so they can try to kill them, after all, they are only Thai, not like us superior westerners eh?

You think if strict laws were not imposed in the western world that people would bother with the expense of a child seat, yeah yeah, I know............westerners are different, all caring and loving family unit etc etc..

I never had one when I was a kid....why not? cos it was not a requirement by law at that time, that's why.

The drink driving laws are very lax in Thailand, and for many Farangs it's a good thing, as many Farang that I know drive whilst totally slaughtered.