Koh Tao

[OriginalPoster]

Suppose I run a business and put up a sign that says "no blacks allowed", would that be discrimination, racism, or a business decision?

And yes, thanks, for the blacks example. To say no Israelis means No Jews and is just as offensive as no blacks.

I figured somebody would think they are smart and go this route. Don't be ridiculous and try to apply thousands of years of history (in the case of Israel) and hundreds of years (in the case of blacks) to the issue we are discussing about Koh Samui, KPG, or Koh Tao. It's like grabbing for straws and trying to pull the "racist" card again. Samui has no history of ethnic conflict as it pertains to Israelis or blacks or whatever.

15 years ago I doubt any Thai resident of Samui knew what "Israel" was and had probably never even heard of the word. Between then and now, I doubt they've been reading Nazi propaganda and subscribing to anti-semite newsletters and reading up on their new hatred of Jews. What happend then?

What happened was that in that short period of time, the residents of Samui had had enough bad encounters with Israelis for them to formulate their own opinion of them, based on nothing but their behavior, not some radical "racist" "anti-semite" agenda as you would so love to believe. Of course there were some good Israelis I'm sure, but clearly the bad were bad enough for the residents of Samui to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So in a short period of time, one groups bad behaviours have made them out of favor with the residents (even moreso than any drunk Brits, whoever) strictly on the basis of their consistently poor behavior. As I'm sure the residents of Samui aren't Nazi sympathizers, they have come up with their conclusion based on what was happening in front of their eyes, and hence made their business decisions, not based on any historical "racism" or other radical belief that you'd like to appoint to them, but just from a lot of bad experience with one very specific group of people.

To try to apply examples from hundreds/thousands of years of conflict among groups to this situation in Samui is ridiculous and won't work.

Go ahead and keep trying to pull out examples of the "race" card - but it simply doesn't apply to Samui/KPG/Tao.

The people here expressing anti-Isreali sentiment here are not Samuians who never saw Westerners, let alone Israelis, before 15 years ago, they are westerners from countries with a long history of this type of thing. I'm reminded of the episode of the mafia show "The Sopranos" where a couple of Tony Sporanos's goons were working over a Hassidic jew who just wouldn't cave in no matter how much they beat him up. The Jew said, "I can hold out against you, we held out against the Romans and where are they now?" The goon's reply was "we're them".

[Jingthing]

teej, what is your race/nationality? How would you feel if you arrived at an island and saw a bunch of signs that said No whatever you are?

I think you are confusing political correctness. There are levels. Of course, people who get offended at every joke about different ethnicities need to loosen up. That is not the same thing as banishing people from housing based on race/relgion/nationality. The one is just plain fun. The other really hurts people.

Edited August 1, 2008 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

There are alot of races. Is this what you wanted, teej?

I still don't get what you are getting at?

Maybe you are talking about whether Jews are a race. That is too big a subject for me.

Wiki

Ra′ces of the World. The most general division of the human family is into five great races: the Caucasian, the Mongolian, the Malay, the Ethiopian and the American. The Caucasian race is the most numerous and the most widely spread over the earth of all the races. It is distinguished by a fair complexion, a high forehead, straight hair and a beard varying in color. This race is dispersed over nearly the whole of Europe and North America, northern Africa and large areas in Asia, Australia and southern Africa. It leads the other races in literature, commerce and all the arts of civilization. The Mongolian race has a yellowish complexion, small eyes, prominent cheekbones and rather coarse, black hair. It comprises the Chinese, the Japanese, the Turks and many other nations in Asia, with the Magyars of Hungary and the Esquimaux of North America. The Malay race has a dark-brown complexion, with a skull like the Caucasian; a flat face like the Ethiopian; and straight, dark hair like the Mongolian. This race is found in Madagascar, Australia, the islands of the Pacific and the Malay Peninsula of Asia. The Ethiopian or African race has a black complexion, a rather low forehead, a broad, flat nose, thick lips, thin beard and woolly hair. It inhabits the greater part of Africa, although it has ten million representatives in North America. The American race (Indians) has a red or copper-colored skin, high cheek bones, coarse, black hair and scanty beard. It is found in certain portions of North America and South America. The population of the world may be estimated in round numbers at 1,500,000,000, of which more than 1,000,000,000 belong to the Caucasian and Mongolian races. Various divisions and subdivisions of thece races have been made by ethnologists durng the last twenty-five years.

Edited August 1, 2008 by Jingthing

[teej]

There are alot of races. Is this what you wanted, teej?

Wiki

Ra′ces of the World. The most general division of the human family is into five great races: the Caucasian, the Mongolian, the Malay, the Ethiopian and the American. The Caucasian race is the most numerous and the most widely spread over the earth of all the races. It is distinguished by a fair complexion, a high forehead, straight hair and a beard varying in color. This race is dispersed over nearly the whole of Europe and North America, northern Africa and large areas in Asia, Australia and southern Africa. It leads the other races in literature, commerce and all the arts of civilization. The Mongolian race has a yellowish complexion, small eyes, prominent cheekbones and rather coarse, black hair. It comprises the Chinese, the Japanese, the Turks and many other nations in Asia, with the Magyars of Hungary and the Esquimaux of North America. The Malay race has a dark-brown complexion, with a skull like the Caucasian; a flat face like the Ethiopian; and straight, dark hair like the Mongolian. This race is found in Madagascar, Australia, the islands of the Pacific and the Malay Peninsula of Asia. The Ethiopian or African race has a black complexion, a rather low forehead, a broad, flat nose, thick lips, thin beard and woolly hair. It inhabits the greater part of Africa, although it has ten million representatives in North America. The American race (Indians) has a red or copper-colored skin, high cheek bones, coarse, black hair and scanty beard. It is found in certain portions of North America and South America. The population of the world may be estimated in round numbers at 1,500,000,000, of which more than 1,000,000,000 belong to the Caucasian and Mongolian races. Various divisions and subdivisions of thece races have been made by ethnologists durng the last twenty-five years.

You had to go to Wiki? Can't formulate your own opinion? That's been your theme for this entire discussion. You can't formulate opinions or justify statements, you just throw out "you/he/they are racist." Are you completely unaware that there are so many levels of understanding that haven't even been breached - and can't be explored without giving up that ridiculous "race" card.

Any academic would tell you that that information is 8th grade level rubbish. Why don't you go Wiki some other info on the social construction of the term "race" and how it conveniently masks other underlying problems. Educate yourself before you start spouting false information. Otherwise, you just look more foolish as the thread continues.

And by posting that rubbish you indicate that you actually believe in this thing called "race?" Orders of magnitude, surely.

[Jingthing]

Yes, I believe there are different races. Don't you? That came from my own head. I still think you are talking gibberish and avoiding the issue. This is what I suspect about you. I suspect you hate Jews. I suspect alot of your friends hate Jews and you aren't used to being challenged on your bigotry. Did I peg you? Because there is no justification in supporting banning an entiire nationality, which just so happens to be the one and only Jewish nationality, from the right to rented housing just based on that. Surely, if people of any race/religion/nationality show up and they exhibit disturbing BEHAVIORS you are ethically justified to refuse the business. But not based on race/religion/nationality. Any decent person knows that.

And you know what, I don't accept your gibberish line that I have to be a scholar on ethnography (I am not) to know the basics about how to treat human beings ETHICALLY, yes, even in business matters.

If, BTW, you are a scholar on the subject of race and believe there is no such thing as race, well, it really makes no difference. Whether you call it race, religion, nationality, or ethnic group, it is the same thing to the Israelis who are unfairly grouped together with the NO ISRAELI signs.

Edited August 1, 2008 by Jingthing

[teej]

Yes, I believe there are different races. Don't you? That came from my own head. I still think you are talking gibberish and avoiding the issue. This is what I think. I think you hate Jews. I think alot of your friends hate Jews and you aren't used to being challenged on your bigotry. How do you like them apples?

You have the most hate inside you of anyone posting in this thread - sad thing is, you don't even know it.

You have now replaced your incessant "you're a racist" reply to everything to "you hate Jews?" Are you serious? What's your next accusation, "you are a Nazi?"

No, of course I do not believe that there are different "races." The concept is absurd and out-dated (I would even suggest that only "racist" people believe in "races" - think that one through if you can). Ethnicities, yes. Cultures, yes. Race implies some ignorant desire to categorize what cannot be categorized - and it also implies that humans are genetically different according to "race."

If humans are still around in a billion years, we'll see that "race" was just a social construct in a time where something convenient was needed to describe what amounts to different ethnic populations.

[Jingthing]

So that's what you have been driving at? That you don't believe there are different races.

So WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you not believe there are different religions? Nationalities? Ethnic groups? Colors of people?

Do you not believe the Israelis coming are Jews?

Get real.

You are right, I probably do hate you. Someone trying to justify with your fancy tricks unfair treatment of whatever you call Jews, or blacks (don't they look darker skinned to you or don't you see color), or whatever the group de jour that people think they are justified in treating unfairly, etc.

BTW, if I am a racist for my backwards thinking that there are different races, then I am a GOOD racist because I favor fair treatment of all human beings based on their individual merits, nothing else. Maybe by your twisted definition you are not a racist, but again, how can you justify banning ALL Jews from Israel from housing? Huh?

You know, you are just playing tricks and semantics and have not at all successfully justified the obvious disgusting face of NO ISRAELI signs and policies. I am sure you are proud of yourself. I won't call you a Nazi because as we know, you don't have to be a Nazi to hate Jews. Peace.

Edited August 1, 2008 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

For those on the sidelines, do you think this guy would be for or against No Israelis signs?

To live anywhere in the world today and be against equality because of race or color is like living in Alaska and being against snow. ~William Faulkner, Essays, Speeches and Public Letters

Edited August 1, 2008 by Jingthing

[sbk]

Well, what started out as a discussion has turned into an argument.

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