Free Bus, Free Train To Help Low-income Earners

[baanthale]

taught me an high level of compassion and humanity to others,

thats fine , so long as your compassion and humanity are directed at those who really need it and will benefit from it , as opposed to those who , through their own laziness and lack of morality and direction , aim ( and often succeed) in manipulating others to provide for them. one only has to look at most of the northern european countries and their socialist governments to see a long established and well developed culture of dependance among the poorest , with all that goes along with it .... a total lack of ambition , a culture of "i know my rights" , and the punitive taxation regimes directed against those who actually get out there and invest their savings by opening businesses and offering employment.

necessity has always been the mother of invention , and notwithstanding free train tickets , healthcare and education , throwing money at "the poor" rarely does anything to help them move up the ladder.

as another poster said , dont give them fish , but teach them how to catch their own.

"Taxexile", yeah somehow I can understand why you don't like our tax system and welfare system. Maybe we are all lazy and dependent on the system, but it seems to work quite well

[Heng]

You must have misunderstood my post 15#, I didn't look down on anyone, I just stated a fact. A country were almost all the assets are holded by 10% of the population, and the rest are living on near to nothing will not be seen as a welfare state.

Regarding limits on compassion and humanity, I do not say it's good enough, but only one (1) small city in my country, of totally 9 million people, took care of more Iraqi refugee's than whole USA and Canada together under and after the Iraq invasion, and we did not even attend in this war

Nah, I made the fair (which I still feel is correct) that when people are feeling down or feeling frustrate, they often try to make silly comments which they hope others might find insulting. I base that on the fact that uneven income distribution is the norm the world over, and has in fact been the norm since the beginning of time. I'm sure you know that the trend, worldwide, is for that income gap to continually increase as well.

That sounds like a great example of humanity and compassion, but for myself, I have always believed that humanity and compassion is not a "team" sport and that one's own accomplishments are what count. At the same time, I have never believed that advertising such acts were of any benefit either.

[Heng]

one only has to look at most of the northern european countries and their socialist governments to see a long established and well developed culture of dependance among the poorest

One most certainly will find that same culture in many parts of the US as well, in my experience in several areas of Texas, where many folks are having the max number of kids they can have because of the tax, welfare, etc. benefits.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Heng

[jitagon]

Yeah, and what about the poor people in the other provinces? Or am I missing something?

Yes indeed. That's what spouse is fuming about.

[Heng]

But while focusing on this we still need to provide safety nets for those at the bottom and this is also obviously to do with humanity, compassion and is also about responsible society.

That's the trouble with safety nets (ever been to the circus?). They are great for practice, but you always get people who come to depend on them... and then are always clowns rolling around on the safety nets just for fun.

[baanthale]

one only has to look at most of the northern european countries and their socialist governments to see a long established and well developed culture of dependance among the poorest

One most certainly will find that same culture in many parts of the US as well, in my experience in several areas of Texas, where many folks are having the max number of kids they can have because of the tax, welfare, etc. benefits.

Common belives from the independent well off's, that they are the only once that contributes, and everyone else are just cheaters who use the system. But then one day, they jump out of luck, and they will be first in the cue to claim their benefits

[george]

Private buses: revenue falls 30%, want to join free transit service

BANGKOK: -- Private bus operators in the Thai capital are complaining that their daily revenues have declined about 30 per cent after the government launched measures to help low-income earners, including free travel on buses operated by the state-owned Bangkok Mass Transit Authority (BMTA).

Chatchai Chaiviset, president of the private bus operators association, said the initial estimates found revenues falling about one-third per day, or a loss of an average of between Bt700-1,000 per bus after the government-sponsored programme began.

He said his association would conduct the negative impact for long-term and would request for an assistance from the government.

Private bus operators are asking to join the government programme for reducing bus fares by three baht for both air- and non-air-conditioned buses per trip, with the government helping to supplement the discounted fare.

The six measures were implemented Friday, except for the reduced excise tax on fuel which began July 25. The measures are aimed at boosting the Thai economy, which has become sluggish due to soaring oil prices, and also to assist the poor and low income wage-earners.

Other measures are postponing a price increase for the liquefied petroleum gas used by householders, free tap water used at less than 50 cubic metres monthly and free electricity used less than 80 units per month by households, with the government taking up the income shortfall. For households using less than 150 units power per month, the government can pay half the bill.

Free travel on 800 ordinary buses operated by BMTA on 73 routes within Bangkok and the metropolitan region, and free travel on third class railway carriages is also featured.

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej has said the measures will cost the government about Bt46 billion (US$1.4 billion).

The idea to request the government to help subsidise private bus operators who reduce fares has been objected to by a consumer group, saying that financial assistance, if agreed, would come from people's taxes.

-- TNA 2008-08-03

[Heng]

one only has to look at most of the northern european countries and their socialist governments to see a long established and well developed culture of dependance among the poorest

One most certainly will find that same culture in many parts of the US as well, in my experience in several areas of Texas, where many folks are having the max number of kids they can have because of the tax, welfare, etc. benefits.

Common belives from the independent well off's, that they are the only once that contributes, and everyone else are just cheaters who use the system. But then one day, they jump out of luck, and they will be first in the cue to claim their benefits

That's not my belief exactly, since other than consumption taxes and property taxes, I do restrict somewhat my income in countries where my personal and business income is heavily taxed. Mine is an unbiased first hand observation of those cheating the welfare system in the US as well as those whose own development is stunted because of available welfare (or charity/gov't subsidies/etc. in the case of many people here in Thailand for example).

I'm not saying there is NO place for welfare or gov't subsidy, but it should be an extremely limited kick start, and not the bottomless pit of sloth that it almost invariably becomes.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Heng

[Heng]

Private buses: revenue falls 30%, want to join free transit service

Translation: we want to be on the gravy train with biscuit wheels too, please.

[taxexile]

Common belives from the independent well off's, that they are the only once that contributes, and everyone else are just cheaters who use the system.

not all benefit recipients are cheaters , but most do know how to "work" the system very well to maximise their gains from it. i worked for a long time as a healthcare provider in the uk , both in the nhs and private systems and consider myself to have some insight into the mindset of claimants. when the system provides such an all encompassing and soft cushion to fall back on , there is just no incentive whatsoever to have any responsibility for your future , for your health or for your families.

too many hard working middle class people are much worse off for all their honesty and daily slog than the benefit users they pay their taxes to subsidise.

[Johpa]

The majority of the 10 % rich, sorry

You mean the 10% who employ (clothe, feed, and shelter) the other 90%?

Or the same 10% who insure that certain large portions of the other 90% have few options other than to migrate into the cities to live in slums to be cheap labor and of course to provide affordable oral gratification, as explored in Stephen Frear's excellent small film 'Dirty Pretty Things'.

Ah yes, making excuses for those who chose 'sanuk in the moment' over work, saving, investing, and 'overall sanuk for all time.' You control your own destiny. What you keep spouting is 'someone else keeps controlling my destiny.'

So easy to say for someone with money and options. But yes indeed, the elites do indeed control the destiny, or at least the options to the poor. For example, they often control the access to education and the access to capital. They determine how much of the common wealth is reinvested and how much is wired overseas to be invested elsewhere. That is not to say that a few do not overcome their situation through a combination of luck, ambition, and hard work. But those are always the exception. The majority remain very poor because others make a determined effort to keep them poor. This is not an excuse, more of a 'J'accuse'.

[Heng]

The majority of the 10 % rich, sorry

You mean the 10% who employ (clothe, feed, and shelter) the other 90%?

Or the same 10% who insure that certain large portions of the other 90% have few options other than to migrate into the cities to live in slums to be cheap labor and of course to provide affordable oral gratification, as explored in Stephen Frear's excellent small film 'Dirty Pretty Things'.

Ah yes, making excuses for those who chose 'sanuk in the moment' over work, saving, investing, and 'overall sanuk for all time.' You control your own destiny. What you keep spouting is 'someone else keeps controlling my destiny.'

So easy to say for someone with money and options. But yes indeed, the elites do indeed control the destiny, or at least the options to the poor. For example, they often control the access to education and the access to capital. They determine how much of the common wealth is reinvested and how much is wired overseas to be invested elsewhere. That is not to say that a few do not overcome their situation through a combination of luck, ambition, and hard work. But those are always the exception. The majority remain very poor because others make a determined effort to keep them poor. This is not an excuse, more of a 'J'accuse'.

And it's never occured to you that before one gets "money and options," that someone -and more often than not: the sum of an entire family's membership for generations- has to pass through those same barriers that "few are able to overcome through a combination of luck, ambition, and hard work?" (although again, I think it's most important to add frugalness and discipline to delay gratification to that list)

The majority remain poor in part because of self-defeatist attitudes like your summary sentence above. As they say, whether you believe you CAN or CANNOT do something, you're absolutely right.

[TAWP]

Right, since they will have saved money during these 6 months to offset the increased cost they have to cover for the next 5 years...or maybe some of them have won the lottery and will share with everyone else that is poor...?

Teach a man to fish...

You are right, teach the poor by holding their head under water, should not try to help in any way Each for them self, It's not my problem exactlly like you learnd in your own welfare state

And no, I'm not talking about "cut down money on three's", I'm talking about a little sharing, humanity and equality. Letting people who can afford it, to pay taxes like they should, instead off buying Benz cars to show off. It's not only the poor in Thailand who need's education, also the rich needs education in proper behavior and fairness to their own.

Put down the crack pipe and realize that 6 months won't change it for these people in the long run.

I'm worried for them for real, you are just cheering subsidies.

[baanthale]

Right, since they will have saved money during these 6 months to offset the increased cost they have to cover for the next 5 years...or maybe some of them have won the lottery and will share with everyone else that is poor...?

Teach a man to fish...

You are right, teach the poor by holding their head under water, should not try to help in any way Each for them self, It's not my problem exactlly like you learnd in your own welfare state

And no, I'm not talking about "cut down money on three's", I'm talking about a little sharing, humanity and equality. Letting people who can afford it, to pay taxes like they should, instead off buying Benz cars to show off. It's not only the poor in Thailand who need's education, also the rich needs education in proper behavior and fairness to their own.

Put down the crack pipe and realize that 6 months won't change it for these people in the long run.

I'm worried for them for real, you are just cheering subsidies.

In good mood on a monday morning Didn't catch any fish over the weekend? Good arguments! I think you and me are done with the talking.

[Heng]

Putting down the crack pipe/bottle of Sangsom/and putting off those trips to Fueng Far Cafe & Karaoke/not buying that Hilux Vigo or Honda Dream before you own some real estate, etc. is also a good move if you don't want to remain poor forever. Plenty of time left to pick up those habits again when you can afford it.

[samran]

funny thing about this is that the stickers which have been printed have a font style and colour which bear a remarkable similarity to the PPP stickers you see about the traps. An election is coming...don't you doubt it.

[baanthale]

Putting down the crack pipe/bottle of Sangsom/and putting off those trips to Fueng Far Cafe & Karaoke/not buying that Hilux Vigo or Honda Dream before you own some real estate, etc. is also a good move if you don't want to remain poor forever. Plenty of time left to pick up those habits again when you can afford it.

Times will change, things will change even here, and believe me Heng, you can't do anything about it. The only thing you can do, is to extend that Wall around your property

[hammered]

funny thing about this is that the stickers which have been printed have a font style and colour which bear a remarkable similarity to the PPP stickers you see about the traps. An election is coming...don't you doubt it.

A nice catch. It does seem a bit of a giveaway

[Heng]

Putting down the crack pipe/bottle of Sangsom/and putting off those trips to Fueng Far Cafe & Karaoke/not buying that Hilux Vigo or Honda Dream before you own some real estate, etc. is also a good move if you don't want to remain poor forever. Plenty of time left to pick up those habits again when you can afford it.

Times will change, things will change even here, and believe me Heng, you can't do anything about it. The only thing you can do, is to extend that Wall around your property

Yeah, haven't heard that one before. Not only do we expect things to change, but we also count on it and have always and continue to plan accordingly.

[Plus]

Thailand taxation and welfare follows the US model, not Swedish, and it's not about to change anytime soon.

Income gap is also similar to that of the US, too.

And for those who think revolution is around the corner - the current government that is supposed to provide more welfare is hel_l bent on lowering the taxes, not increasing them. We've heard about VAT decrease from 7 to 3%, and more recently corporate income tax cut from 30 to 25%.

The poor landless farmers in Isan can watch on TV how Bangkokians enjoy free rides paid with Isanese VAT, they can check how well off among the Isanese themselves enjoy low gasohol prices for their sedans, paid with Isanese VAT, too, and how those who can afford only pickups have to pay still higher prices for diesel.

They won't get to watch how corporations celebrate their tax cuts - no cameras at corporate junkets and parties, but they can be assured - they will spend this money with utmost pleasure, money that were supposed to pay for education and welfare.

So far this year the government that cares spend an equivalent of four years of education for every child on various "stimulus" measures that stimulate only consumption, not savings and investments.

[Payboy]

Thailand taxation and welfare follows the US model, not Swedish, and it's not about to change anytime soon.

Income gap is also similar to that of the US, too.

And for those who think revolution is around the corner - the current government that is supposed to provide more welfare is hel_l bent on lowering the taxes, not increasing them. We've heard about VAT decrease from 7 to 3%, and more recently corporate income tax cut from 30 to 25%.

The poor landless farmers in Isan can watch on TV how Bangkokians enjoy free rides paid with Isanese VAT, they can check how well off among the Isanese themselves enjoy low gasohol prices for their sedans, paid with Isanese VAT, too, and how those who can afford only pickups have to pay still higher prices for diesel.

They won't get to watch how corporations celebrate their tax cuts - no cameras at corporate junkets and parties, but they can be assured - they will spend this money with utmost pleasure, money that were supposed to pay for education and welfare.

So far this year the government that cares spend an equivalent of four years of education for every child on various "stimulus" measures that stimulate only consumption, not savings and investments.

increased consumption will stimulate economic growth and benefits are bound to percolate down to the north east as well...i hope

[Plus]

increased consumption will stimulate economic growth and benefits are bound to percolate down...

That's not how "socialist" states work. That's how the republicans in the US want it to work - less taxes, more money in people's pockets, less government sponsored welfare, let people fend for themselves.

I'm not judging which system is better, I'm saying that while our on-board socialists talk about building welfare state, the reality on the ground is just opposite.

I'm not convinced that consumption boosts with borrowed money (for the state, not for recipients) instead of investing in education, for example, is the way forward.

[baanthale]

Thailand taxation and welfare follows the US model, not Swedish, and it's not about to change anytime soon.

Income gap is also similar to that of the US, too.

And for those who think revolution is around the corner - the current government that is supposed to provide more welfare is hel_l bent on lowering the taxes, not increasing them. We've heard about VAT decrease from 7 to 3%, and more recently corporate income tax cut from 30 to 25%.

The poor landless farmers in Isan can watch on TV how Bangkokians enjoy free rides paid with Isanese VAT, they can check how well off among the Isanese themselves enjoy low gasohol prices for their sedans, paid with Isanese VAT, too, and how those who can afford only pickups have to pay still higher prices for diesel.

They won't get to watch how corporations celebrate their tax cuts - no cameras at corporate junkets and parties, but they can be assured - they will spend this money with utmost pleasure, money that were supposed to pay for education and welfare.

So far this year the government that cares spend an equivalent of four years of education for every child on various "stimulus" measures that stimulate only consumption, not savings and investments.

1/I suppose your post was for me? I never said that Thailands welfare system follows any Swedish model!? I said that it isn't good enough! I would also like to see everyone having a chance to get education, that would benefit Thailand.

2/I also never said that current government have done a great job so far. It's the fault of PAD and the democrats, that we need to have this government now, don't blame me!

3/I am no socialist, and if you knew anything about the outside of the Us, you would also know that we do not have a socialist government in Sweden at the moment.

Regarding the income gaps in Thailand, I am sure the min. pay in the Us is higher than 3 $ a day? I do not believe in any "revolution" in Thailand, but I believe that with going inflation and low incomes, the majotity of Thailand will say stop sooner or later. And as you know from elections, the majority have much influence on happenings.

[Payboy]

increased consumption will stimulate economic growth and benefits are bound to percolate down...

I'm not convinced that consumption boosts with borrowed money (for the state, not for recipients) instead of investing in education, for example, is the way forward.

the thai govt is not giving a boost to consumption "instead" of investing in education.... the current proposals are ad hoc for current economic woes... though it may be true that early elections are at the back of the mind...

[TAWP]

2/I also never said that current government have done a great job so far. It's the fault of PAD and the democrats, that we need to have this government now, don't blame me!

3/I am no socialist, and if you knew anything about the outside of the Us, you would also know that we do not have a socialist government in Sweden at the moment.

2) The PAD makes the government waste money, the economy falter and the hurricane hit Burma... that is your balanced view?

3) Yes, we do. They are called Socialist-light for a reason and won because they took the same platform as the rightleaning-socialists under GP was running with the years before while pointing out that it could be better...

But make no mistake, they are NOT close to right-leaning in the right sense of the word. And far from Libertarian.

But I digress...

[Plus]

I mentioned education because Korn, Democrat shadow minister, put it in easy to understand terms - short term consumpton boosts, or ad hoc measures, if you want, for this year alone are equivalent to four years of free education for all Thai children.

They financed by increasing budget deficit.

And they have not come up with any education policies yet. Even the "one district one scholarship program" is about to be axed - I saw it today's paper Nation. Have they invested anything in healthcare? Not that I know. Have they invested in anything at all? Not that I know. They even said the latest 46 bil package is available because they can't start megaprojects.

Again, in Korn's language - they blew the equivalent of two extra mass transit lines just in this one year on consumption boosts, with no clear results.

Private investment and BOI applications are down in double digits. It looks like money inserted into the economy is only feeding inflation so far.

And while I'm at it - do you remember that they cancelled their coupons for the poor program? They invested in fuel subsidies for car owners instead.

>>

Baanthale, I'm not singilng you out as a socialist, there are plenty of people here who advocate income redistribution in one way or another. This government is not what they hope for, despite its roots and rhetoric.

[baanthale]

2/I also never said that current government have done a great job so far. It's the fault of PAD and the democrats, that we need to have this government now, don't blame me!

3/I am no socialist, and if you knew anything about the outside of the Us, you would also know that we do not have a socialist government in Sweden at the moment.

2) The PAD makes the government waste money, the economy falter and the hurricane hit Burma... that is your balanced view?

3) Yes, we do. They are called Socialist-light for a reason and won because they took the same platform as the rightleaning-socialists under GP was running with the years before while pointing out that it could be better...

But make no mistake, they are NOT close to right-leaning in the right sense of the word. And far from Libertarian.

But I digress...

2/ I honestly do not understand what you talk about. I said that it is the fault of PAD and the Dem's. that we have PPP instead of TRT in government right now. For me, the Dem's. are not an alternative, as I do not trust them to deliver anything good for the average Thai voter. The first 10 years I spent here, was under the Dem's. goverm. All of them was selected from the south or Bangkok area, and they didn't deliver shit! Yes, they delivered for the people in south and around Bangkok, as the politicians from there had to keep their promises for their voters. South and Bangkok filled there already full pockets, as there was nothing to spend money on in areas. The poor rural majority didn't get any economic or other help at all. This is Why the Dem's do not get enough votes today, the majority do not trust them, and that includes me! Maybe you understand now why the Dem's get all thier votes from the south or Bangkok, has nothing to do with education or intelligens (or maybe it has). TRT and Thaksin may be corrupt as he!!, but it is not important for the majority, as they look for delivery. You can call it hand-outs or what ever you want, but medical scems, village funds and student loans are better then nothing! My own experience with TRT in my life and day to day business, is that it was less tea money, and more clear directives in my province at least.

3/ I am correct! We have a right hand government if you see it with your Swedish values, and thats because there is little difference between them now days. If you ask most Americans, yes, everything in Europe would be socialists (or communists), but thats not true, as you know, our welfare and political system is not comparable to the US. Our current government cuts taxes and cuts welfare, can't really call that socialists.

Don't need to digress, just be polite

[TAWP]

3/ I am correct! We have a right hand government if you see it with your Swedish values, and thats because there is little difference between them now days. If you ask most Americans, yes, everything in Europe would be socialists (or communists), but thats not true, as you know, our welfare and political system is not comparable to the US. Our current government cuts taxes and cuts welfare, can't really call that socialists.

No, we don't. You are making a classic mistake in thinking right hand or left hand definitions are based on some arbitrary position of where you decide the center is/should be located.

The fact of the matter is that just because they are to the right of the communist party doesn't per definition make them right wing - that only means they are to the right of the communist party on the scale. Oh, and so you know, they haven't cut welfare for most people. Some will even be guaranteed higher levels during the first 180 days. What they added was a clearly defined step down scale for those that seem to be unable to get any jobs without being sick or under-schooled. Those that are very often just being lazy and taking advantage of the system.

Edited August 5, 2008 by TAWP

[baanthale]

3/ I am correct! We have a right hand government if you see it with your Swedish values, and thats because there is little difference between them now days. If you ask most Americans, yes, everything in Europe would be socialists (or communists), but thats not true, as you know, our welfare and political system is not comparable to the US. Our current government cuts taxes and cuts welfare, can't really call that socialists.

Oh, and so you know, they haven't cut welfare for most people.

So you agree in some level that welfare have been cut And I also suppose you now taxes has been cut! I did not say Werther I thought it to be good or not, and I did not say Werther I think unemployed people in Sweden are lazy or not. Thats all your opinions, and do not matter in this case. You can't call a government in Sweden, per definition socialist, if they cut taxes and cut welfare.

This does not have anything to do with this topic, so I rest my case from here.

[Plus]

The first 10 years I spent here, was under the Dem's. goverm.

10 years under Democrat government? What (or when) are you talking about?