Hotel Design Upsets Buddhists

[Ajarn]

Chiang Mai _ Buddhist groups nationwide have called for a halt to construction of a three-billion-baht luxury hotel here which resembles several Buddhist temples, while the hotel operator has promised to change the design if the Culture Ministry says he should.

Mandarin Oriental Daradevi Chiang Mai Hotel is being built on a 500-rai land plot in San Kamphaeng district to resemble northern-style temples. Its entrance and performance stage will look like a chapel and an arch at Wat Lai Hin in Lampang while another stage will look similar to an arch of Wat Phrathat Lampang Luang in Lampang.

Buddhist representatives who attended the 44th Buddhist assembly at Buddha Satharn in Chiang Mai yesterday agreed with the Buddhist Association of Thailand that the design was inappropriate and could spoil the image of Buddhism.

They want the hotel to revise the design and avoid decorating the hotel with Buddhist symbols.

Sant Suebsaeng, manager of the hotel, said the hotel operator had invested more than three billion baht in the project, but would be willing to change the design if the Culture Ministry told it to, in a bid to win local acceptance. The hotel is expected to open later this year.

With only about 45 days left in the year, I'm guessing the Post meant to say 'next year'. If if was actually 'later this year', it kinda seems too late to change the design if the place is expected to open this month or next...

[p1p]

They have been busily interviewing, employing and training staff for the hotel for about four months, so the opening can not be far away.

As regards design. Surely a design that pays homage to the best and most famous of Thailand's traditions can not be a bad thing. As long as no images of the Lord Buddha are placed in positions where they would suffer lack of veneration, I can only envisage a positive result from such a design, especially as the hotel's target marked encompasses the great and the good from around the world.

[Explorer]

A good time to use "same same but different" concept

Explorer

[meadish_sweetball]

They have been busily interviewing, employing and training staff for the hotel for about four months, so the opening can not be far away.

As regards design. Surely a design that pays homage to the best and most famous of Thailand's traditions can not be a bad thing. As long as no images of the Lord Buddha are placed in positions where they would suffer lack of veneration, I can only envisage a positive result from such a design, especially as the hotel's target marked encompasses the great and the good from around the world.

Fully agree. I would guess the generally accepting attitude of Thailand towards mixing (good + good = good) will eventually prevail in this case though, I find it hard to believe that the Culture Ministry would go against the Oriental here - judging from the original post, the design does not appear to be disrespectful in any way.

While I have the highest respect for Buddhism and Thai culture, some people protest just because they have nothing better to do... just like some other people write posts to agree with previous posts without adding anything new to the discussion.

[p1p]

Fully agree. I would guess the generally accepting attitude of Thailand towards mixing (good + good = good) will eventually prevail in this case though, I find it hard to believe that the Culture Ministry would go against the Oriental here - judging from the original post, the design does not appear to be disrespectful in any way.

While I have the highest respect for Buddhism and Thai culture, some people protest just because they have nothing better to do... just like some other people write posts to agree with previous posts without adding anything new to the discussion.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Totster]

They have been busily interviewing, employing and training staff for the hotel for about four months, so the opening can not be far away.

As regards design. Surely a design that pays homage to the best and most famous of Thailand's traditions can not be a bad thing. As long as no images of the Lord Buddha are placed in positions where they would suffer lack of veneration, I can only envisage a positive result from such a design, especially as the hotel's target marked encompasses the great and the good from around the world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fully agree. I would guess the generally accepting attitude of Thailand towards mixing (good + good = good) will eventually prevail in this case though, I find it hard to believe that the Culture Ministry would go against the Oriental here - judging from the original post, the design does not appear to be disrespectful in any way.

While I have the highest respect for Buddhism and Thai culture, some people protest just because they have nothing better to do... just like some other people write posts to agree with previous posts without adding anything new to the discussion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I couldn't agree more...

totster

[Johpa]

Mandarin Oriental Daradevi Chiang Mai Hotel is being built on a 500-rai land plot in San Kamphaeng district to resemble northern-style temples.....

Is this another "windfall" for the Sankampeng branch of the Shinawat family? Not having been out to Sankampeng in many a years, has the road out there been improved? And what would be the advantages for a tourist paying top dollar for a hotel in an area with few points of interest other than tour group tourist traps such as the umbrella village at Bo Sang?

[sabaijai]

Mandarin Oriental Daradevi Chiang Mai Hotel is being built on a 500-rai land plot in San Kamphaeng district to resemble northern-style temples.....

Is this another "windfall" for the Sankampeng branch of the Shinawat family? Not having been out to Sankampeng in many a years, has the road out there been improved? And what would be the advantages for a tourist paying top dollar for a hotel in an area with few points of interest other than tour group tourist traps such as the umbrella village at Bo Sang?

Dhara Devi is just outside the superhighway off the road to Sankamphaeng (not in SKP itself), so it's only a few minutes drive from downtown Chiangmai.

It's next door to Wat Khrok Bua Luang, itself a fairly significant tourist attraction for its authentic northern Thai temple murals.

The owner has nothing to do with the Shinawatra family, he's a Chinese Thai from southern Thailand who is also a keen archivist and collector of things Lanna. I've been out to see the architecture there, and I think it's done very tastefully. The article is a bit misleading. The wihaan from Wat Lai Hin is reproduced in its entirety, complete with Buddha images, and is quite well done.

Nothing like the escapade with Amanpuri in Phuket, where Buddha images were placed at near ground level alongside the swimming pool, etc.

As for architectural motifs from Lanna temples being used at DD, this is done at a large number of tourist-oriented businesses in the north, eg, the Lanna spa at the Four Seasons, the new Rachamankha Hotel in Chiang Mai's old city, the list is nearly endless.

DD is employing many Chiang Mai artisans who are experts in temple construction and traditional art renovation, folks otherwise are relatively rarely able to practice their skills and sustain a living.

In the meantime no one's protesting the hundreds of tacky, badly executed reproductions of the murals at Wat Phumin sold in the Night Bazaar or plastered on the walls of Kad Suan Kaew's Kad Luang.

In addition they have a director of cultural programs (who happens to be a friend, that's how I know some of what's going on there) whose job it is to archive and maintain what may become the most complete collection of Lanna-related literature in the country. These programs will include expert guest speakers who are knowledgable on things Thai, to deliver free lecture programs on Thai art and culture to hotel guests.

I reckon places like the Dhara Devi are doing more to preserve and promote Lanna art than anything the Dept of Fine Arts has been able to do over the decades.

The hotel is supposedly putting on a press conference at the hotel site tomorrow to counter the charges put forth, not sure what time it starts though.

addendum--Another error in the article: The total grounds at DD are 52 acres, roughly 104 rai, not 500 rai.

Edited November 14, 2004 by sabaijai

[chanchao]

Thanks for that explanation, and I completely agree. Of course, with the governments policy to promote 'high quality' (= 5 star) tourism in Chiang Mai, does anyone seriously think the Culture department is going to go against this.. Of course, not should they. With horrific things like the Rydges going up, nobody in his right mind would do anything against this one, all privately funded too!

Funnily enough I was at Grand Lanna, the place's restaurant recently and also wondered who would want to pay 10K or more a night to stay out there off the Sankamphaeng road. But then, neither me not Johpa are in their target group: That there's not much to walk to and see in the immediate surroundings doesn't really matter for people doing a 5 star spa resorts package deal; it's not like they even plan to leave the resort other than by organized tour to Doi Suthep, if that. But yes, it woulnd't be my recommendation for accommodation either. At least it's closer into town than the 4 seasons / Regent out in Mae Rim.

Oh yes.. the Grand Lanna restaurant won't be appearing on my site for the time being.. While the food was pretty good, it's not like it's really above the level in variety, taste and presentation of, say, Pop-Am restaurant which is a factor ten cheaper. (Again, I'm not the target customer for their restaurant either.. nothing wrong with the surroundings though!) Also I think the dishes may have been a little bit Farangized.. A big no-no in my book, but then again, for wealthy spa-packager from the US...

Cheers,

Chanchao

[Ajarn]

Replica temple at hotel draws local protest

CHEEWIN SATTHA

Tambon Lai Hin residents look around the replica of Wat Lai Hin in the grounds of the Mandarin Oriental Dhara Dhevi hotel in Chiang Mai. Buddhist groups, local academics and residents have protested against the hotel project. - CHEEWIN SATTHA

Chiang Mai _ About 70 people from tambon Lai Hin in Lampang yesterday visited a hotel in San Kamphaeng district to protest against the building of a replica of their revered Wat Lai Hin.

Hotel staff took the villagers for a close look at the replica temple, in the grounds of the three-billion-baht Mandarin Oriental Dhara Dhevi hotel.

The protesting villagers, from Lampang's Ko Kha district, believed the replica resembled Wat Lai Hin in every detail and that building it without the temple's permission was insulting to Buddhism and local wisdom.

They also feared that fewer tourists would visit the real Wat Lai Hin.

Lert Kullo, 67, from tambon Lai Hin said the replica at the hotel could draw the people from going to temples for merit-making. He, however, also admitted it could help promote tourism.

Songsak Kaewmoon, president of the Lai Hin tambon administration organisation, said he would call meetings of the TAO and villagers to consider taking action.

Project manager Sant Suebsaeng said the hotel's intention was to showcase and conserve traditional northern-style art. The hotel was awaiting a ruling on whether the design must be changed. Culture Ministry officials would visit tomorrow, he said.

Tambon Lai Hin residents, local Buddhist networks, and academics met yesterday at Maha Chulalongkorn Rajawitthayalai, a Buddhist university in Chiang Mai. They urged hotels and spas to stop using or imitating Buddhist art for building, decorative or commercial purposes.

****************************

I agree with other's comments regarding the promotion, exhibition and protection of Lanna Arts, but when it comes to the religion being used as decoration in a hotel as alleged, I feel more inclined to side with the locals portrayed. It just doesn't feel right, to my heart. Plenty of other ways the hotel can promote Buddhism/Tourism, like by taking guests to the real wats and having them experience the real wat and religion, and the culture and people who support it, rather than making a contrived version on hotel grounds specifically designed to attract money (customers)

Sorry, but it feels too akin to Buddha-as-garden-gnome for my tastes.

[ChiangMaiThai]

I think these people all have way to much time on their hands. Its one of the best hotels in the world and its done extremely tastefully. Relax.

[Rinrada]

Its one of the best hotels in the world and its done extremely tastefully. Relax.

[Rinrada]

Its one of the best hotels in .....bit 2 quick there.....

I was going to suggest that it sounds like the ideal venue for the next C.M.meet / booze -up........bit more cultured like ...mate

[chanchao]

> I was going to suggest that it sounds like the

> ideal venue for the next C.M.meet / booze -up

Yes, especially if you're paying the bill. Otherwise, ummmmmmmmmm... It's not exactly cheap yousee.. Ever had a drink at the bar at the Bangkok Oriental? Expect something similar.

Of course this may be a good thing to reduce our alcohol consumption.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[chanchao]

If we want something cultural, there's always Huean Soontaree. :-) I find the music challenging though.. but not that I'd mind after a few beers.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[astral]

What is that saying:

Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery!

[Rinrada]

> ideal venue for the next C.M.meet / booze -up

not exactly cheap yousee.. Ever had a drink at the bar at the Bangkok Oriental? Expect something similar.

[Rinrada]

> ideal venue for the next C.M.meet / booze -up

not exactly cheap yousee..  Ever had a drink at the bar at the Bangkok Oriental?  Expect something similar.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Doing it again.. seeing double . .must have been that last half pint of Carls-de-berg last night....

Anyway re. Oriental Hotel in Bangers Yes i have been there many times ... just to check up on standards of course,after all its been voted worlds No 1 hotel for

years now.

Last time took wife and friends for a quick one on the terrace (drink )and since she dont like alco.ordered her a non A cocktale....something called a "pussyfoot-pussyjuice-pussy something"and of course they "forgot" to leave out the Vodca.

There was no fireworks display on the river on that occasion but she was convinced that rockets were going off everywhere

Didnt think the bill was too bad for what we had (Sheraton Suk is the worse Rip orf) and even paid it with my (ere we go again) Nationwide Building Society Flex.A/c card....no fee-rip off or anything.

Incid. Hotel has nice toilets.

[sabaijai]

I  agree with other's comments regarding the promotion, exhibition and protection of Lanna Arts, but when it comes to the religion being used as decoration in a hotel as alleged, I feel more inclined to side with the locals portrayed. It just doesn't feel right, to my heart. Plenty of other ways the hotel can promote Buddhism/Tourism, like by taking guests to the real wats and having them experience the real wat and religion, and the culture and people who support it, rather than making a contrived version on hotel grounds specifically designed to attract money (customers)

Sorry, but it feels too akin to Buddha-as-garden-gnome for my tastes.

Ajarn, you might want to reserve judgement tilk you've had a chance to go and see it for yourself. The reproduction of the Wat Lai Hin wihaan is not intended to be decoration, it's intended as tributary and educational. The whole section of the property that has these reproductions is separate from the living/dining/entertaining spaces.

Muang Boran in Samut Prakan does much the same thing on a much larger scale, with replica religious monuments from all over Thailand. Plust Muang Boran they charge admission. Although one could accuse the Muang Boran owners of using these monuments as entertainment, anyone who knows the owners know that their intention is to promote theh history of Thai art/architecture.

I can see your point, but I do think it's worth having a look before jumping to conclusion.

I wonder if the press conference went off as planned. DD's owner, I'm told, is very concerned about public relations, and is an avid Lanna culture expert. IIf the consensus is that the Wat Lai Hin wihaan lookalike should be removed, he might very well concede.

[Ajarn]

I  agree with other's comments regarding the promotion, exhibition and protection of Lanna Arts, but when it comes to the religion being used as decoration in a hotel as alleged, I feel more inclined to side with the locals portrayed. It just doesn't feel right, to my heart. Plenty of other ways the hotel can promote Buddhism/Tourism, like by taking guests to the real wats and having them experience the real wat and religion, and the culture and people who support it, rather than making a contrived version on hotel grounds specifically designed to attract money (customers)

Sorry, but it feels too akin to Buddha-as-garden-gnome for my tastes.

Ajarn, you might want to reserve judgement tilk you've had a chance to go and see it for yourself. The reproduction of the Wat Lai Hin wihaan is not intended to be decoration, it's intended as tributary and educational. The whole section of the property that has these reproductions is separate from the living/dining/entertaining spaces.

Muang Boran in Samut Prakan does much the same thing on a much larger scale, with replica religious monuments from all over Thailand. Plust Muang Boran they charge admission. Although one could accuse the Muang Boran owners of using these monuments as entertainment, anyone who knows the owners know that their intention is to promote theh history of Thai art/architecture.

I can see your point, but I do think it's worth having a look before jumping to conclusion.

I wonder if the press conference went off as planned. DD's owner, I'm told, is very concerned about public relations, and is an avid Lanna culture expert. IIf the consensus is that the Wat Lai Hin wihaan lookalike should be removed, he might very well concede.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know, it's not easy for me to reserve judgement on anything!

But, so many seemingly sensible people seem to see things differently, and as you said, some have seen it for themselves, whereas, I haven't.... Still, there is a group of local Thais protesting, who've seen it, too...

Okay, off my little pedestal, and out to take a look for myself before casting my opinion in stone (no stone-head jokes, please)

[Ice Treasure]

snipped a bit..

...the real wats and having them experience the real wat and religion, and the culture and people who support it, rather than making a contrived version on hotel grounds specifically designed to attract money (customers)

Sorry, but it feels too akin to Buddha-as-garden-gnome for my tastes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not as though the average tourist focussed wat (Phrasinhg, Doi Suthep, et al) are innocent of the charge of attracting tourism for the sake of the money.

Ajarn maybe you need to take yourself a LITTLE less seriously.

[toopeekaa 1]

snipped a bit..

...the real wats and having them experience the real wat and religion, and the culture and people who support it, rather than making a contrived version on hotel grounds specifically designed to attract money (customers)

Sorry, but it feels too akin to Buddha-as-garden-gnome for my tastes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not as though the average tourist focussed wat (Phrasinhg, Doi Suthep, et al) are innocent of the charge of attracting tourism for the sake of the money.

Ajarn maybe you need to take yourself a LITTLE less seriously.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

After all commercialism is everywhere....... why just the other day I was at the golden arches place and was talking of places to see when one of the nearby diners popped in with "Hey Mac Wat Sit-to-ya" at the golden arches yet

[Ajarn]

snipped a bit..

...the real wats and having them experience the real wat and religion, and the culture and people who support it, rather than making a contrived version on hotel grounds specifically designed to attract money (customers)

Sorry, but it feels too akin to Buddha-as-garden-gnome for my tastes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not as though the average tourist focussed wat (Phrasinhg, Doi Suthep, et al) are innocent of the charge of attracting tourism for the sake of the money.

That's a horse of a different colour, to me....

Ajarn maybe you need to take yourself a LITTLE less seriously.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll be the judge of that!

[Ajarn]

Monks and academics condemn use of Buddhist decor in hotels

Inappropriate Buddha images in hotels can cause offence

Nopniwat Krailerg

Monks and some academics have condemned the use of Buddhist decor in many hotels in Chiang Mai. They have petitioned Chiang Mai Governor Suwat Tantipat and the National Buddhism Office to express their objections. Some of the architecture and decor used in hotels might cause misunderstanding in tourists, according to the petition.

The action was sparked by the seminar on “Moral Precepts in Building Chiang Mai City” that was organized by Chiang Mai University’s Social Research Institute and Art and Culture Office of Rajabhat Chiang Mai University on October 30 at the Maha Chulalongkorn University at Wat Suan Dok.

Monks watch video recordings showing temple-like decor claimed as being misused in many hotels in Chiang Mai.

According to the seminar, the opposition was raised to the use of Wihara pillars to decorate lobbies and use of Buddha image and tiered umbrellas as decorations. Seminar participants also criticized hotels whose decor simulated temples. Nagas and Singhas, which are also symbols of Buddhism, are often used in places of accommodation and restaurants and are deemed inappropriate and offensive by many followers of Buddhism.

Gerk Akkrachinores from Maha Chulalongkorn University said that all decorations of Buddhism art and architecture might be eye-catching for outsiders and tourists, but it was improper for Lanna people to use them.

Sarin Hinkong, a lecturer at the Maha Chulalongkorn University, proposed further discussion on the improper uses of Buddhist architecture and decoration at the monthly meeting of Chiang Mai monks held at Wat Pra Singh on November 2. Over 150 senior monks took part and voiced strong criticism.

Chamlong Kittisri, director of the National Buddhism Office, said that he was informed about the conflict but had not yet inspected the hotels. Chamlong admitted that the hotel industry made a significant contribution towards solving unemployment, but the use of Buddhist architecture and arts at these hotels needed to be inspected by specialist officials. He sent a petition to Governor Suwat and the National Buddhism Office for further inspection and discussion.

“Deciding whether Chiang Mai hotels have acted incorrectly will take time,” said Chamlong.

The Act of Ancient Ruins (1992) covers only prohibition of reproduction of ancient objects but not ancient places, so the Act could not be enforced on the hotels, said Sahawat Naennar, director of the 8th Fine Arts Office, Chiang Mai. Reproduction of Buddhist decoration on any buildings therefore had to be considered on a matter of appropriateness only, said Sahawat.

http://www.chiangmai-mail.com/current/news.shtml

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[Sao Jiang Mai]

It is all a matter of local politics in Lampang. The issue has nothing to do with the hotel, culture or anything but local politicians in Lampang accusing each other of not safeguarding Lampang 'cultural rights' in order to get an edge politically. Pathetic really. We will be doing an article for The Nation within the next week or so on this matter if you are interested. A big seminar is to be held tomorrow on the issue as well as loads of groups are jumping on the bandwagon. Personally I think that the hotel has done an exemplary job with fine taste which can only enhance the image of Buddhism, in no way eroding it. But there's big money and big face involved...