Thai/chinse: Do They Hold The Same Values As Ethnic Thais?

[chevykanteve]

Do Chinese/Thai people hold the same values as ethnic Thais? Parameters for discussion might include concepts like education, generosity and desire for power/control.

[toptuan]

In a word: No.

In a sentence: These value differences are what essentially fuel the current political crises/instability in Thailand.

In a paragraph: Well, better let the ethnic Thais and Chinese-Thais speak for themselves. When you get to know one well enough, launch into a discussion of the above. You'll find solidly-ingrained prejudices on both sides, based on hugely divergent value systems.

Edited August 16, 2008 by toptuan

[12DrinkMore]

Do Chinese/Thai people hold the same values as ethnic Thais? Parameters for discussion might include concepts like education, generosity and desire for power/control.

Give a Chinese 100 Baht in the morning and he will come back in the evening with 110 Baht, give a Thai 100 Baht in the morning and he will come back owing somebody 10 Baht...

[chevykanteve]

In a word: No.

In a sentence: These value differences are what essentially fuel the current political crises/instability in Thailand.

In a paragraph: Well, better let the ethnic Thais and Chinese-Thais speak for themselves. When you get to know one well enough, launch into a discussion of the above. You'll find solidly-ingrained prejudices on both sides, based on hugely divergent value systems.

Is twenty years+ business, etc., experience with ethnic Thais and Chinese Thais enough time? I think so. So, back to the original query. Let's try to keep the American/Britiish "we're all equal; we're all the same" bs apart from this discussion and concentrate on reality.

[Pierrot]

Do Chinese/Thai people hold the same values as ethnic Thais? Parameters for discussion might include concepts like education, generosity and desire for power/control.

In the Chinese diaspora, Thai chineses have a very special place : they consider themselves Thai, not Chinese.

Most foreigners don't integrate the Thai society the way Chinese do. Picking on an other ethny to compensate for one's own failures just show how low one has felled.

[cmsally]

I married into a Thai Chinese family, but I don't know that you can lump all the Thai-Chinese and all the ethnic Thais into separate categories.

I would say on the whole, business/money is more important to them, as is education; their expectations are higher.

To put it briefly, whatever the rung of the ladder they have come in on, they do not accept it as "their place", the majority see no reason why they can't climb upwards.

They are outwardly patriotic but inwardly not so much, many like to hedge their bets abroad.

Their view of the area is more pan asian and less nationalistic. (This brings up some interesting issues in the present political situation especially when you look at the leading figure of the PAD). I think you can deduce from this my Thai-C friends point of view.

Chinese -Thai tend to be less cosmopolitan than their counterparts in Singapore/Hong Kong, but this is from the nature of the country they live in. I think if you know Thai-Chinese people well enough, often it is the case they would rather their offspring marry a European than a native Thai. They are not stupid of course and can decide on a case by case basis.

[G54]

I married a Thai-Chinese.

Nothing wrong with the family. Her father was OK as was her mother. In fact the wole family were very good, very understanding and happy to discuss any problems and to help out.

Problem was with the wife that is why we are now apart.

[taxexile]

i married a thai chinese girl.

from a lower middle class family , father came to thailand alone when he was a teenager , educated himself and married a southern thai girl. did whatever was necessary workwise in order to bring up and put his seven kids through school and university. i was been welcomed and accepted into the family from day 1.

the thai chinese are pro-active and tend to take a responsible and long term view of things and there is always some money held back for the rainy day. they see thais in general as work shy and always looking for a short cut for achievement.

without the thai chinese here , this country would be an insignificant povery stricken backwater.

[Jingthing]

The way that Thailand has integrated its Chinese compared to Malaysia and Indonesia is a wonderful thing about Thailand. You may find them more or less attractive or find the dominant cultural values of one group or another more your taste, but that is very subjective.

[Johpa]

In the Chinese diaspora, Thai chineses have a very special place : they consider themselves Thai, not Chinese.

Most foreigners don't integrate the Thai society the way Chinese do. Picking on an other ethny to compensate for one's own failures just show how low one has felled.

You are echoing William Skinner's academic argument, made nearly 50 years ago, that the Chinese have assimilated into Thai society. I have spent far more time living amongst ethnic Tai settlements within the Kingdom than did Skinner or any of his peers, and quite simply he and you are incorrect. Bangkok has assimilated towards an East Asian cultural center, not the other way around. That being said, there are many Thai-Chinese families in the provinces who have integrated. But please, because I point out such experiences does not imply a failure or a new low on my part. Only my best friends get to hear about my failures or my long past trips into the gutter. : )

[Pierrot]

You are echoing William Skinner's academic argument, made nearly 50 years ago, that the Chinese have assimilated into Thai society. I have spent far more time living amongst ethnic Tai settlements within the Kingdom ...

I don't know this Mr Skinner and I'm talking about Thailand in 2008, not 50 years ago ...

"ethnic Tai settlements" : What are you talking about ? Again, we are leaving in 2008, wake up !

[Pierrot]

We have to learn from this man.

Khorat is a place little known even within Thailand.

You really think too mut...

[Heng]

Do Chinese/Thai people hold the same values as ethnic Thais? Parameters for discussion might include concepts like education, generosity and desire for power/control.

In the Chinese diaspora, Thai chineses have a very special place : they consider themselves Thai, not Chinese.

Most foreigners don't integrate the Thai society the way Chinese do. Picking on an other ethny to compensate for one's own failures just show how low one has felled.

It varies. You'll have elements of Chinese diaspora (everywhere) integrating and assimulating and you'll have plenty that integrate but also maintain somewhat independent core groups, culture, and tradition. Here in Thailand, your observation is correct in that more have gone the integration + assimulation path. Those who disagree with you are also correct though in that there are plenty who do 'keep the Thais *and anyone not like themselves* out' of their groups... but that's certainly not a trait unique to the Chinese or Thai Chinese, not by a long shot.

Also agree with your last sentence. An awful lot of people have a need to blame something that is external to their own self. "I couldn't possibly have failed... I must have been held back." "My inlaws can't possibly have been living in near poverty for generations... surely someone else has been keeping them down." Nevermind that those who they blame arrived here with far less than what their own ancestors already had in hand.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Heng

[lannarebirth]

Do Chinese/Thai people hold the same values as ethnic Thais? Parameters for discussion might include concepts like education, generosity and desire for power/control.

In the Chinese diaspora, Thai chineses have a very special place : they consider themselves Thai, not Chinese.

Most foreigners don't integrate the Thai society the way Chinese do. Picking on an other ethny to compensate for one's own failures just show how low one has felled.

It varies. You'll have elements of Chinese diaspora (everywhere) integrating and assimulating and you'll have plenty that integrate but also maintain somewhat independent core groups, culture, and tradition. Here in Thailand, your observation is correct in that more have gone the integration + assimulation path. Those who disagree with you are also correct though in that there are plenty who do 'keep the Thais *and anyone not like themselves* out' of their groups... but that's certainly not a trait unique to the Chinese or Thai Chinese, not by a long shot.

Also agree with your last sentence. An awful lot of people have a need to blame something that is external to their own self. "I couldn't possibly have failed... I must have been held back." "My inlaws can't possibly have been living in near poverty for generations... surely someone else has been keeping them down." Nevermind that those who they blame arrived here with far less than what their own ancestors already had in hand.

Another thing that's rarely mentioned is that the farang here could do exactly the same thing the Chinese have done. the only difference is, many farang seem to need immediate gratification for themselves and are less inclined to consider the prosperity of their chidren. It's not very hard for your family to "become Thai", if you take a little longer view. Or maybe , realizing they haven't chosen a suitable partner to help them, they would rather focus on others holding them back.

Edited August 16, 2008 by lannarebirth

[IMA_FARANG]

Do Chinese/Thai people hold the same values as ethnic Thais? Parameters for discussion might include concepts like education, generosity and desire for power/control.

You could write a book on the subject....and quite a few people have.

My Thai girlfriend grew up associating with Thai Chinese families. She has a basic understanding of Chinese as spoken in Thailand.

Actually the question is far more complicated than you might think. Consider asking if the French and the British have any common values. Of course they do, they all have certain desires/wants/needs because they are all human beings. But there are different methods they use to gain these needs. Their are culutural differences. But at the same time they are also similar when you get down to the basics.

One thing that makes Thais and Chinese-Thais different is the Chinese origin of Chinese-Thai families. Chinese-Thai families often are quite aware, and proud of, their Chinese origin. For that reason they may retain many Chinese customs, which makes them behave differently from their thai nieghbors.

The Chinese-Thai will tell you that for a long time there was discrimination by Thais against the Chinese in Thailand. For this reason Thai-Chinese tend to stick together with other Thai-Chinese. They often pick business partners from their own group, Thai-Chinese tend to support other Thasi-Chinese busineses. Is that due to a common language and culutural customs? I don't know. Thai-Chines families also tend to have the Chinese familial closeness. That is Thai-Chinese families often have the old Confucian values of family/religion/and ancestor worship/honor. Education is important in Chinese values, and Thai-Chinese families tend to follow the same pattern.

But all that is only by the averages. You will find Thais who are very family orientated, hard working, and whose values are more like the Chinese norm. You will also find Thai-Chinese whose values are more like the Thai norm. People are people after all, and they differ from each other in what values they choose.

Anyway, I better end this before I write a another book on the subject.

Edited August 16, 2008 by IMA_FARANG

[Rikker]

There are a few books I know of that deal with this topic. The Skinner referred to is G. William Skinner, who wrote Chinese Society in Thailand: An Analytical History in the late 1950s.

I think the historical background on this issue is enlightening. Policies between the authoritarian government of the 1930s and 1950s were severely anti-Chinese. Schools teaching in Chinese were forced to switch to using Thai as the language of instruction or else shut down, extra taxes were levied against Chinese businesses, the state simply took over some areas of business which the Chinese were excelling in, etc.

The effect this had was to "assimilate" the Chinese on a surface level. Virtually all ethnic Chinese whose families have been here since those times will identify as Thai. Thaksin, Sondhi, you name it. But as has been pointed out already, the real effect was only a change in name. Bangkok culture continued to merge with Chinese culture, they just called themselves Thai now. The Chinese have continued to dominate business, and they still dominate the nationally enshrined idea of beauty (the primary feature being very fair skin).

I think there's an interesting discussion hidden somewhere in this thread.

[mmushr00m]

From my experience I think Thai chinese tend to be more conservative and have less of the "mai pen rai" attitude.

But then again my main source of experience is with business men (thai chinese) and the wife and her family (thai + chinese + thai muslim mix).

I find that the Thai chinese are better intergrated then their cousins in M'sia and Indonesia. But that could probably be mainly due to the similarities in religion here as opposed to Indo and M'sia. That and govt policies.

As for looks, as long as they are pretty I dont care what race, colour, religion they are. I am like Capt Kirk, the girl could be green as long as she's pretty its

[Pierrot]

Actually, after reading again this thread and others, it seems that one's opinion depends very much where one's live.

My own feeling (absolutely no scientific basis) is in Bangkok, more than 90% of the thai population has some Chinese heritage, one side or an other, giving the impression of a more homogenous society and an almost complete Chinese integration. But it seems in rural Thailand, especially in Isan, the reality is different.

On the other hand, we are now spending more and more time in Isan, and I never felt any discrimination or any angry or bad feelings. Then I guess everybody has his own experience …

[HASSELHOFF]

My wife is Thai-Chinese (even though she says no she is Thai).

She is a girl who thinks for herself and has got a masters degree and thinks for herself. Face is not a problem with her, although its in her alittle bit (its in nearly everyone a bit).

She is not even close to how many people describe there Thai wives/Gf's in here.

[wolf5370]

I'm arried to a Thai Chinese too - seems quite a lot of us based on the early comment about them never marrying a farang!

My wife speaks no Chinese (other than a few few words of Mandarin learnt from a book). She does not have the steriotypical Thai personality though. She kowtows to no one (even her parents) - those of course she is respectful. She certainly does not have a 'mai bpen rai' attitude (that would be me that does) or a 'liove for today' one (erm, that's me too). She hates risk (erm, I'll shut up now) and enjoys working - was determined to go back out to work after the kids started school even though we could afford for her to stay home. She is fairly punctaual (never late for work) etc. She does have some traits of course. She has more traits that I would put against female-kind rather than Thai(or Chinese) kind.

Her family accepted me with no problems and still do. Her Grandmother was the last 'true' Chinese - that being born in China - I met her a few times (she lived quite a way away - and she died of the big-C a while back now sadly). She was 100% traditional chinese wife - right down to chewing Betel nuts (black teeth), chinese attire, tiny feet and rarely spoke a word. I have fond memories of her and my wife cried for weeks after she passed. I don't know the history - Mrs doesn't either - but I would guess she emigrated at the start of the cultural revolution after the war.

[Old Man River]

I'm married to a Thai Chinese too - seems quite a lot of us based on the early comment about them never marrying a farang!

My wife speaks no Chinese (other than a few few words of Mandarin learnt from a book). She does not have the steriotypical Thai personality though. She kowtows to no one (even her parents) - those of course she is respectful. She certainly does not have a 'mai bpen rai' attitude (that would be me that does) or a 'liove for today' one (erm, that's me too). She hates risk (erm, I'll shut up now) and enjoys working - was determined to go back out to work after the kids started school even though we could afford for her to stay home. She is fairly punctaual (never late for work) etc. She does have some traits of course. She has more traits that I would put against female-kind rather than Thai(or Chinese) kind.

It sounds like you are describing my wife.

[Maestro]

Off-topic posts and replies thereto – a total of 63 posts – have been deleted. This topic is about the question whether Thai/Chinese hold the same values as ethnic Thais. It is not about

– the skin colour of Thai women of different ethnicity

– the farangs’ preference for skin colour in Thai woman

– visa runs

– whether farangs marry Thai/Chinese

– somebody’s house in Korat

– black people

– whether farangs can do the same thing as Chinese

I think it is time to close this topic.

--

Maestro