Thai Culture And Sarcasm

[Jingthing]

I have to admit, I adore SARCASM. I am well aware as I have read it many places and also tried it out on Thais, that sarcasm and Thai culture are not a match.

Assuming you agree with this, can anyone explain why this culture is so averse to SARCASM?

[Thai at Heart]

I have to admit, I adore SARCASM. I am well aware as I have read it many places and also tried it out on Thais, that sarcasm and Thai culture are not a match.

Assuming you agree with this, can anyone explain why this culture is so averse to SARCASM?

Coz tone of voice is needed to give a sarcastic answer krup.

[PapiRico]

I have to admit, I adore SARCASM. I am well aware as I have read it many places and also tried it out on Thais, that sarcasm and Thai culture are not a match.

Assuming you agree with this, can anyone explain why this culture is so averse to SARCASM?

I have tried that too,and it was like they didnt get it, maybe its that its not in their culture to be sarcastic, like in America the "little white lie" is big,everyone does it, get it and its funny at times, but I feel like this culture is not funny, but they are funny among themselves, i guess i grew out of the Mr Bean Humor long ago, what I have found funny they have not, like sarcasm.

[Wandering]

In English words are important. How we use them, our timing, our intonation, how we put them together.

If someone puts words together really creatively then we consider that person a genius.

In Thai, there is only one way to say any given thing. If you try to be creative and say what you want to communicate in a slightly different way this is viewed as wrong. There is ONLY one way. It has never been done differently for centuries. Any deviation is just wrong and foolish. There is Never any thinking outside the box. Anything outside the box is always bad.

Another factor is that many Thai's are first generation (or possibly second generation) city dwellers. For city people who have "seen it all", grown calloused and sarcastic, we really appreciate post-modern humor which is typically sarcasm.

For farmers or at least those who haven't "been there done that" for every thing under the sun, they are content with a more simple and relaxed humor. This involves facial gestures, melodrama, and slapstick.

Personally I wish I wasn't so calloused to the world and to simpler humor. It gets harder and harder to get a laugh out of me. Someone always has to "up the bar."

Thai's are better off without sarcasm.

[CarlBkk]

Yep, not easy to get Thais understanding sarcasm..they need a little training before getting it.

But try sarcasm with Filipinos who speak and understand English...it really throws them. Thais seem quick-witted in the Western sense in comparison!

[lannarebirth]

I've seen lots of Thai parody, satire and sarcasm. Usually they'll use well worn Thai sayings and even after they tell you what it means and how it relates to the subject matter, you're still often left scratching your head. They get it though.

Edited August 18, 2008 by lannarebirth

[Heng]

Gotta disagree with this one. Sarcasm is an integral part of my routine and my family members most certainly get it.

There's a comedy troupe that does the Sapa Joke (Joke Congress) show on one of the free to air channels that makes pretty extensive use of sarcasm.

[lifeisrandom]

good satire/sarcasm requires knowledge of the language, either english or thai.

thats probably why, OP.

[lannarebirth]

good satire/sarcasm requires knowledge of the language, either english or thai.

thats probably why, OP.

When I ask for explanations sometimes I'm still left bewildered. You'd have to pick it up through osmosis over a period of many years. Still, they get it, and love it.

[Jingthing]

Well, I am not fully convinced by any of these explanations. Sarcasm does not always have to be dependent on tone of voice or even sophisticated language skills.

In many standard cases, it is fully situational.

For example, you are left waiting in a steaming hot office for two hours, and the person you are seeing says, sorry to keep you waiting, and you say, Not a problem I can skip my sauna bath today.

Or you see a horrific traffic accident and you say, That's lovely.

Neither case requires advanced language skills nor is tone critical. I suspect one of the main reasons sarcasm is not appreciated in Thailand is because it sounds RUDE and DISRESPECTFUL.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[teacup]

I’m with uncle Heng on this.

Sarcasm is infact “very much” the integral part of the Thai’s life.

Jingthing, …..Are you sure you didn’t get confuse between…..irony and sarcasm?

Sorry but this time your myth is.......mai jing....mai jing

[lannarebirth]

Well, I am not fully convinced by any of these explanations. Sarcasm does not always have to be dependent on tone of voice or even sophisticated language skills.

In many standard cases, it is fully situational.

For example, you are left waiting in a steaming hot office for two hours, and the person you are seeing says, sorry to keep you waiting, and you say, Not a problem I can skip my sauna bath today.

Or you see a horrific traffic accident and you say, That's lovely.

Neither case requires advanced language skills nor is tone critical. I suspect one of the main reasons sarcasm is not appreciated in Thailand is because it sounds RUDE and DISRESPECTFUL.

Try working some crocodiles and ghosts into your act and see if things don't improve.

[Jingthing]

I’m with uncle Heng on this.

Sarcasm is infact “very much” the integral part of the Thai’s life.

Jingthing, …..Are you sure you didn’t get confuse between…..irony and sarcasm?

Sorry but this time your myth is.......mai jing....mai jing

No, both of those examples are sarcasm.

So please give me some examples of what you consider to be examples of sarcasm in a Thai context.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[rgs2001uk]

i sugest the op updates his thai langugue skills, try listenening to and underastanading la khon and ley khay,

at times it passes me by but the mrs loves it, double entendres and various other faux pas.

for all those who claim to be fluent in thia language , i suggest you try listening and re-evaluating your language skills.

[Jingthing]

Double entendres are not related to sarcasm.

OBVIOUSLY, understanding double entendres is totally dependent on ADVANCED language skills.

I am not saying Thais don't have their forms of humor. I am still not convinced that SARCASM is one of the common forms here.

Here is another situational example of classic sarcasm that I don't most Thais would understand. You are a restaurant and you order a pad Thai. They bring you a huge platter with a huge portion (way more than you can eat). So you say you could feed a village with this pad Thai! , I don't think the typical Thai would think you were being sarcastic and MOCKING the size of the portion. I think if they understand the language, they would take you LITERALLY. But you weren't being literal, you were being SARCASTIC.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[teacup]

I’m with uncle Heng on this.

Sarcasm is infact “very much” the integral part of the Thai’s life.

Jingthing, …..Are you sure you didn’t get confuse between…..irony and sarcasm?

Sorry but this time your myth is.......mai jing....mai jing

No, both of those examples are sarcasm.

So please give me some examples of what you consider to be examples of sarcasm in a Thai context.

Ok I have a few....

tok-tang-kao-san = marrying into the money

pid-mia = to commit adultery, for a man

leuumm huu leuumm ta = wake up and see the truth

sen-phom-bung-pu-khao = the truth is right before your eyes

sao-sai-hai-ga-gin = to air dirty laundry in public

etcs....

You have to know how to speak thai very well......... in order to understand the sarcasms, and be able to distinguish them apart from the normal speaking sentence meaning.

Obviously you're not at that level yet

Edited August 18, 2008 by teacup

[Jeddah Jo]

Here is another situational example of classic sarcasm that I don't most Thais would understand. You are a restaurant and you order a pad Thai. They bring you a huge platter with a huge portion (way more than you can eat). So you say you could feed a village with this pad Thai! , I don't think the typical Thai would think you were being sarcastic and MOCKING the size of the portion. I think if they understand the language, they would take you LITERALLY. But you weren't being literal, you were being SARCASTIC.

I think if the sarcasm has any implied criticism built in to it then it definitely DOES NOT work here. In the West we can be rather crude in our use of sarcasm and very often someone has to be the brunt of it.

IMO the way a Thai would use sarcasm in this example, is to smile at their eating companion and say 'I think, not enough!'.

Thais love to play with words, but if after they have unravelled a sentence they detect negativity or criticism it almost never goes down well.

JJ

[Jingthing]

Here is another situational example of classic sarcasm that I don't most Thais would understand. You are a restaurant and you order a pad Thai. They bring you a huge platter with a huge portion (way more than you can eat). So you say you could feed a village with this pad Thai! , I don't think the typical Thai would think you were being sarcastic and MOCKING the size of the portion. I think if they understand the language, they would take you LITERALLY. But you weren't being literal, you were being SARCASTIC.

I think if the sarcasm has any implied criticism built in to it then it definitely DOES NOT work here. In the West we can be rather crude in our use of sarcasm and very often someone has to be the brunt of it.

IMO the way a Thai would use sarcasm in this example, is to smile at their eating companion and say 'I think, not enough!'.

Thais love to play with words, but if after they have unravelled a sentence they detect negativity or criticism it almost never goes down well.

JJ

Yes, what you say makes sense to me and mirrors my opinion that sarcasm is TOO RUDE for Thais.

Here is a definition of SARCASM:

Sarcasm

Sarcasm refers to a humor that is at once cutting and bold in both in a mocking fashion. Sarcastic humor would never be described as gentle or endearing, but rather as caustic and bitter, describing situations, persons, or things in a derogatory way in order to be funny. Appropriately, the derivations for this brutal form of wit come from the Latin 'sarcasmus," which stems from the Greek "sarkasmos" and "sarkazein" which means literally "to bite the lips in rage."

Edited August 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I’m with uncle Heng on this.

Sarcasm is infact “very much” the integral part of the Thai’s life.

Jingthing, …..Are you sure you didn’t get confuse between…..irony and sarcasm?

Sorry but this time your myth is.......mai jing....mai jing

No, both of those examples are sarcasm.

So please give me some examples of what you consider to be examples of sarcasm in a Thai context.

Ok I have a few....

tok-tang-kao-san = marrying into the money

pid-mia = to commit adultery, for a man

leuumm huu leuumm ta = wake up and see the truth

sen-phom-bung-pu-khao = the truth is right before your eyes

sao-sai-hai-ga-gin = to air dirty laundry in public

etcs....

You have to know how to speak thai very well......... in order to understand the sarcasms, and be able to distinguish them apart from the normal speaking sentence meaning.

Obviously you're not at that level yet

These sound like funny folk sayings, not situational sarcasm. I was looking more for an example of something happening in life here, and what the Thai would say that would be sarcastic.

[lannarebirth]

I'm with uncle Heng on this.

Sarcasm is infact "very much" the integral part of the Thai's life.

Jingthing, …..Are you sure you didn't get confuse between…..irony and sarcasm?

Sorry but this time your myth is.......mai jing....mai jing

No, both of those examples are sarcasm.

So please give me some examples of what you consider to be examples of sarcasm in a Thai context.

Ok I have a few....

tok-tang-kao-san = marrying into the money

pid-mia = to commit adultery, for a man

leuumm huu leuumm ta = wake up and see the truth

sen-phom-bung-pu-khao = the truth is right before your eyes

sao-sai-hai-ga-gin = to air dirty laundry in public

etcs....

You have to know how to speak thai very well......... in order to understand the sarcasms, and be able to distinguish them apart from the normal speaking sentence meaning.

Obviously you're not at that level yet

These sound like funny folk sayings, not situational sarcasm. I was looking more for an example of something happening in life here, and what the Thai would say that would be sarcastic.

I know you're going to disagree that any of this is sarcasm, because you never seem to change your view, no matter how much evidence is stacked against it,

http://2bangkok.com/2bangkok/thaimediaproj...oojadkuan.shtml

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/03/01...es_20001781.php

[Wandering]

I agree with Jingthing.

Here are some English sarcastic remarks

Sometimes I need what only you can provide: your absence.

I feel so miserable without you, it's almost like having you here.

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll be glad to make an exception.

I have had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it.

I didn't like the play, but then I saw it under adverse conditions - the curtain was up.

The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced.

The trouble with her is that she lacks the power of conversation but not the power of speech.

I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.

The suggestions mentioned by teacup are frequently stated phrases in Thai culture.

pid-mia is sort-of irony and the others are just a creative turn of phrase

There isn't anything sarcastic about those phrases.

(I am glad teacup educated us on such cool phrases though)

[Jingthing]

I know you're going to disagree that any of this is sarcasm, because you never seem to change your view, no matter how much evidence is stacked against it,

http://2bangkok.com/2bangkok/thaimediaproj...oojadkuan.shtml

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/03/01...es_20001781.php

You are correct. That is SATIRE, not sarcasm. But I love those links! Thank you.

You know I think some people are being overly DEFENSIVE, almost as if they think I am saying Thailand is poorer as a culture for its lack of sarcasm. That is projection. Thailand IS different, yes?

Edited August 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[thaiaway]

Sarcasm is overrated. Its just another front people can hide behind. Then if someone confronts them about what they said, they reply "..but i was only joking..", thats bullshit. Thumbs down.

[lannarebirth]

I know you're going to disagree that any of this is sarcasm, because you never seem to change your view, no matter how much evidence is stacked against it,

http://2bangkok.com/2bangkok/thaimediaproj...oojadkuan.shtml

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/03/01...es_20001781.php

You are correct. That is SATIRE, not sarcasm. But I love those links! Thank you.

You know I think some people are being overly DEFENSIVE, almost as if they think I am saying Thailand is poorer as a culture for its lack of sarcasm. That is projection. Thailand IS different, yes?

I'm not being defensive. I do believe you're being purposely obtuse. I'll bet you took a lot of beatings back in the states, and you probaly thought it was because you were gay.

[peter991]

Satire, irony, sarcasm ... possibly a mix of all three.

Regularly, my Thai bf would say he was hungry - often within an hour of eating an enormous meal. I used to say jokingly, 'AGAIN? HUNGRY AGAIN ??' It was our pet joke.

The other one was:

Me: What are you doing?

Him: Tired. Going sleeping.

Me: I am going to the market to go shopping.

Him: (A blur of throwing on clothes and standing beside me) ... 'I go with you.'

Me: But you said you are tired.

Him: Not tired now.

Peter

[Wandering]

I'm feeling sarcastic

I believe in luck: how else can you explain the success of those you don't like?

It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them.

I wish we were better strangers.

I'll always cherish the original misconception I had of you.

We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time.

I have a weight problem. I can't wait to eat.

The articles lannarebirth posted are nearly a proof-text that sarcasm is frowned on here.

The first one is about Anupong and the other about Thaksin Shinawatra

Both articles say that sarcasm was attempted (and not skillfully either) but that it went over like a led balloon.

[gobs]

I agree with Jingthing: too rude for the culture IMHO. Sarcasm is taken at its first true sense (so you say something wrong or not "understandable" in the context...), and if understood, it is taken as a unpolite/rude sense of humour. Maybe it's a little "loose face"... And I can understand this (refer to the example of the "pad thai": what about the dignity of the cooker/seller!?).

I tried it gently sometimes among some buddies, but thai people looked at me like if I was just coming down from the moon: "what you say here?"...

So I stopped this practice with my thai acquaitances... and now try to joke about the humour they practice. It can be funny too!..

[lannarebirth]

I'm feeling sarcastic

I believe in luck: how else can you explain the success of those you don't like?

It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them.

I wish we were better strangers.

I'll always cherish the original misconception I had of you.

We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time.

I have a weight problem. I can't wait to eat.

The articles lannarebirth posted are nearly a proof-text that sarcasm is frowned on here.

The first one is about Anupong and the other about Thaksin Shinawatra

Both articles say that sarcasm was attempted (and not skillfully either) but that it went over like a led balloon.

Perhaps, but one sees Thai people utilizing sarcasm frequently amongst people close to them. It's very very common here. I think a lot of it goes on outside the perception of the average expat, that's all.

[G54]

Humour, yes. Sarcasm? No.

You do need to understand the context and the situation to understand sarcasm and the great majority of Thai people would not (IMHO) understand the inflections.

[Wandering]

I am better off for being in ChaingMai where even though I am fluent and have many close Thai friends; sarcasm is just not a part of our conversations. I suspect BKK would be different where I have even heard people use Goo/Mung.

In saying that the Thai's that I know don't use sarcasm, I feel that they are better off without it. Sarcasm is just an outlet for a sadang-arom person to say stuff without repercussions.