University Degrees And Certification To Teach

[Mapguy]

In my short (not academic) tenure here I have become increasingly familiar with the various schools,

language schools and academic schools. By the former, I mean a school where students just learn English. By the latter, I mean everything from government schools (like Yuperaj) to quasi-government schools (like Montfort) to private schools (like Varee). While some academic schools in Chiang Mai do seem to be quite fastidious in hiring, it is apparent that some that you might not expect are not very picky.

My introduction of this topic is not to argue that an appropriate academic degree is any guarantee of teaching ability. I am not arguing, furthermore, about the relative value of a "first" at Oxford compared to a teaching degree from CMU. BUT, I do argue that --- to use a metaphor --- if someone is going to fix my airplane, he da_mn well better have graduated from aircraft maintenance school and be taking refresher courses.

I get the feeling there are a lot of games being played by many farang in Thailand --- in Chiang Mai and elsewhere --- often joined into by schools (both academic and language).

The motivation for most farang is not hard to figure out: "I probably wouldn't be able to get a job anywhere else anyway, and I like the cheap free and easy living here with my live-in Thai girl or boyfriend!" Or, "This is a terrific life experience." Or, "Sh_it, my pension isn't enough!"

The motivation for schools isn't tough to figure out, either. At the salaries paid for teaching in Thailand it is a miracle that schools get any trained (for example) native English speakers who can teach standard English pronounced well. This, of course, excludes most teachers from the Philippines, Queensland, Australia, Yorkshire or the West Midlands, England, and the Southern USA. Cheap shots! Sorry! Couldn't help it! But, please, lay off! I am not arguing what is received standard English, "Oxbridge," BBC, or whatever! What I am saying is much simpler than that --- so, please, no internecine comments among native Anglophones! My point is that Thai teachers of English are at a significant disadvantage (the flip side of the significant disadvantage a native English speaker has in learning to speak Thai well), so schools want "native" English speakers. Is it any surprise that people cheat when both hiring people and in seeking jobs. The schools (except a place like Prem, CMIS, or NIS) haven't got a lot of money, and most farang seem to think it is a constitutional right to shop at Rimping!

Meanwhile, the Immigration Department looks on, usually benignly. The problem might be that students are being very badly taught! And that's a problem!

Over to you...

Edited August 20, 2008 by Mapguy

[BlackArtemis]

In my short (not academic) tenure here I have become increasingly familiar with the various schools,

language schools and academic schools. By the former, I mean a school where students just learn English. By the latter, I mean everything from government schools (like Yuperaj) to quasi-government schools (like Montfort) to private schools (like Varee). While some academic schools in Chiang Mai do seem to be quite fastidious in hiring, it is apparent that some that you might not expect are not very picky.

My introduction of this topic is not to argue that an appropriate academic degree is any guarantee of teaching ability. I am not arguing, furthermore, about the relative value of a "first" at Oxford compared to a teaching degree from CMU. BUT, I do argue that --- to use a metaphor --- if someone is going to fix my airplane, he da_mn well better have graduated from aircraft maintenance school and be taking refresher courses.

I get the feeling there are a lot of games being played by many farang in Thailand --- in Chiang Mai and elsewhere --- often joined into by schools (both academic and language).

The motivation for most farang is not hard to figure out: "I probably wouldn't be able to get a job anywhere else anyway, and I like the cheap free and easy living here with my live-in Thai girl or boyfriend!" Or, "This is a terrific life experience." Or, "Sh_it, my pension isn't enough!"

The motivation for schools isn't tough to figure out, either. At the salaries paid for teaching in Thailand it is a miracle that schools get any trained (for example) native English speakers who can teach standard English pronounced well. This, of course, excludes most teachers from the Philippines, Queensland, Australia, Yorkshire or the West Midlands, England, and the Southern USA. Cheap shots! Sorry! Couldn't help it! But, please, lay off! I am not arguing what is received standard English, "Oxbridge," BBC, or whatever! What I am saying is much simpler than that --- so, please, no internecine comments among native Anglophones! My point is that Thai teachers of English are at a significant disadvantage (the flip side of the significant disadvantage a native English speaker has in learning to speak Thai well), so schools want "native" English speakers. Is it any surprise that people cheat when both hiring people and in seeking jobs. The schools (except a place like Prem, CMIS, or NIS) haven't got a lot of money, and most farang seem to think it is a constitutional right to shop at Rimping!

Meanwhile, the Immigration Department looks on, usually benignly. The problem might be that students are being very badly taught! And that's a problem!

Over to you...

I know this oh too well.

My wife, who is Thai, has been studying English for over 20 years. Graduated from CMU with a BA in English and studied at Payap's international TEFL MA (Payap then pulled some BS and did not let her submit her thesis, aviod them)

However, despite all of this, her opinion was often drowned out by the opinion of a farang whom also studied with her and only quotes bloom's taxonomy. I would be treated better as a teacher despite the fact that my wife is much better skilled, can teach grammar better than any Farang or Pinyo teacher I have met, and has a better accent than even some native speakers... When she asked for a raise she often got "We know you deserve a much better salary, but you're Thai, sorry we can't help you".

Needless to say my wife is excited to move to the US and get her MA in Early Childhood and work in a country that will pay her for her abilities, rather than her skin tone.

They love to side step wonderful teachers and hire crap in this country, and this is just another piece in the puzzle of the declining educational system here.

[Ulysses G.]

My introduction of this topic is not to argue that an appropriate academic degree is any guarantee of teaching ability. I am not arguing, furthermore, about the relative value of a "first" at Oxford compared to a teaching degree from CMU. BUT, I do argue that --- to use a metaphor --- if someone is going to fix my airplane, he da_mn well better have graduated from aircraft maintenance school and be taking refresher courses.

One BIG problem in my opinion is the insistance on teachers having a B.A. degree in something (that usually has nothing to do with teaching the English language), rather than welcoming teachers with a High School degree and good TEFL certificate that proves the teacher knows basic grammar rules himself and has actually studied how to teach others.

Of course, someone with a B.A. in teaching English would likely be a better choice, but there are very few teachers with those qualifications that want to work for next to nothing.

A recognized TEFL degree is a lot better than nothing!

[Mapguy]

My introduction of this topic is not to argue that an appropriate academic degree is any guarantee of teaching ability. I am not arguing, furthermore, about the relative value of a "first" at Oxford compared to a teaching degree from CMU. BUT, I do argue that --- to use a metaphor --- if someone is going to fix my airplane, he da_mn well better have graduated from aircraft maintenance school and be taking refresher courses.

One BIG problem in my opinion is the insistance on teachers having a B.A. degree in something (that usually has nothing to do with teaching the English language), rather than welcoming teachers with a High School degree and good TEFL certificate that proves the teacher knows basic grammar rules himself and has actually studied how to teach others.

Of course, someone with a B.A. in teaching English would likely be a better choice, but there are very few teachers with those qualifications that want to work for next to nothing.

A recognized TEFL degree is a lot better than nothing!

This is definitely a valid point to make: an appropriate academic degree or (in the case of teaching the English language) a recognized TEFL/ESL degree or certification should be in hand.

Edited August 21, 2008 by Mapguy

[Puwa]

The problem is not with teachers and schools, but with the market. Chiang Mai's job market does not demand English fluency, so there is little demand for high-quality instruction.

People here can get by with just passable English because jobs only require basic spoken and perhaps some written communication, like an occasional email. Take a reservation, jot down an order, negotiate a rental, send an email, etc.

But it's not like there are international firms here that need people who can write reports or make presentations or participate in international teams knocking out business plans and marketing materials. There is no media to speak of, no real tech sector, no financial services sector. If there were such jobs, then people would be competing for them and seek the best possible language training. You see much more demand in Bangkok, often better teaching, and better pay.

[PeaceBlondie]

Lots of good points being made here. As an aside to Mapguy, if you did not want internecine Anglophone bashing, then why trash the graduates of Vanderbilt, Rice, Tulane, Trinity, SMU, UT-Texas, etc?

I agree with BlackArtemis. Yet I worked with a Thai graduate of Payap's MA-TESOL who earned more per year than I did, at a govt. school.

The market in CMai for really good teachers of native English is miniscule, confined mostly to international schols that demand a real B.Ed with home country credentials as teacher.. I have had enough talks with guys with degrees in English who could not get a real job teaching advanced English, because there are not enough jobs for them. There is increased demand for teachers of beginer English, with few demands on performance, detestable working conditions, 11-month contracts, unexplained non-renewal of successful teachers, etc,

[ilyushin]

My introduction of this topic is not to argue that an appropriate academic degree is any guarantee of teaching ability. I am not arguing, furthermore, about the relative value of a "first" at Oxford compared to a teaching degree from CMU. BUT, I do argue that --- to use a metaphor --- if someone is going to fix my airplane, he da_mn well better have graduated from aircraft maintenance school and be taking refresher courses.

One BIG problem in my opinion is the insistance on teachers having a B.A. degree in something (that usually has nothing to do with teaching the English language), rather than welcoming teachers with a High School degree and good TEFL certificate that proves the teacher knows basic grammar rules himself and has actually studied how to teach others.

Of course, someone with a B.A. in teaching English would likely be a better choice, but there are very few teachers with those qualifications that want to work for next to nothing.

A recognized TEFL degree is a lot better than nothing!

Good post UG. I agree with you on this one a 100%.

[Mapguy]

My introduction of this topic is not to argue that an appropriate academic degree is any guarantee of teaching ability. I am not arguing, furthermore, about the relative value of a "first" at Oxford compared to a teaching degree from CMU. BUT, I do argue that --- to use a metaphor --- if someone is going to fix my airplane, he da_mn well better have graduated from aircraft maintenance school and be taking refresher courses.

One BIG problem in my opinion is the insistance on teachers having a B.A. degree in something (that usually has nothing to do with teaching the English language), rather than welcoming teachers with a High School degree and good TEFL certificate that proves the teacher knows basic grammar rules himself and has actually studied how to teach others.

Of course, someone with a B.A. in teaching English would likely be a better choice, but there are very few teachers with those qualifications that want to work for next to nothing.

A recognized TEFL degree is a lot better than nothing!

Good post UG. I agree with you on this one a 100%.

I agree. Degrees should reflect appropriate training. A recognized TEFL certificate is indeed a lot better than nothing

[keddy]

My introduction of this topic is not to argue that an appropriate academic degree is any guarantee of teaching ability. I am not arguing, furthermore, about the relative value of a "first" at Oxford compared to a teaching degree from CMU. BUT, I do argue that --- to use a metaphor --- if someone is going to fix my airplane, he da_mn well better have graduated from aircraft maintenance school and be taking refresher courses.

One BIG problem in my opinion is the insistance on teachers having a B.A. degree in something (that usually has nothing to do with teaching the English language), rather than welcoming teachers with a High School degree and good TEFL certificate that proves the teacher knows basic grammar rules himself and has actually studied how to teach others.

Of course, someone with a B.A. in teaching English would likely be a better choice, but there are very few teachers with those qualifications that want to work for next to nothing.

A recognized TEFL degree is a lot better than nothing!

Good post UG. I agree with you on this one a 100%.

I agree. Degrees should reflect appropriate training. A recognized TEFL certificate is indeed a lot better than nothing

A question How do you know about the standard in every institution and of every teacher or even most teachers in CM? The other thing is why should there not be diversity of accents, to be taught, and listened to? What is wrong with regional accents. I think a southern US accent can sound beautiful and is better ,to my ear. than the usual nasel drone from most Americans in the media/efl textbooks. Likewise with English regional accents. I suppose if Shakesphere himself was alive and came over he wouldn't be allowed in front of the class because of his Stratford upon Avon accent.

[Ulysses G.]

The other thing is why should there not be diversity of accents, to be taught, and listened to?

Most students who study English want to be understood as easily as possible. Regional accents can be very difficult to comprehend to people with different accents.

[PeaceBlondie]

English generally should be taught as unaccented as possible. Nearly anybody with a high school education, a TEFL course, and reasonable maturity knows to teach speaking standard English, be they from either Birmingham or either Edinburg(h). Students of EFL should be exposed to several standard pronunciations, but not to extreme regional ones. Some non-native teachers are largely accent-free.

As to the standards of teachers in Chiang Mai, we do not always know, and they vary.

[keddy]

English generally should be taught as unaccented as possible. Nearly anybody with a high school education, a TEFL course, and reasonable maturity knows to teach speaking standard English, be they from either Birmingham or either Edinburg(h). Students of EFL should be exposed to several standard pronunciations, but not to extreme regional ones. Some non-native teachers are largely accent-free.

As to the standards of teachers in Chiang Mai, we do not always know, and they vary.

Everybody has a variation in accent and anybody who learns English must be exposed to a variety of accents to become good listeners and therfore good speakers. I went to Chile found the accent difficult at first but soon adapted and it improved my Spanish having already been exposed to the Castilian variety. It also is enriching for the student in expressing themselves with variety instead of the same old homogenous nasel 'standard' american accent or the grating RP English accent. I think you have to make a distinction between clarity and accents. Just because you have difficulty understanding a regional accent doesn't mean they are worse than your accent. Maybe this seems to be an American problem as many seem to be very insular in their attitude to foreign influences.

[PeaceBlondie]

Maybe we are saying the same thing, keddy. TEFL must be taught clearly, and all extreme accents sound unclear to a non-native learner. Having lived in North Central and in the western edge of the Confederacy, I find most American speech virtually unaccented. I find the Welsh and Irish more clear than many Englishmen and Scotsmen, unless they are teaching. I found Nicas and Chiapanencos nearly unintelligible, whilst the Chilangos from DF were haughty but clear.

[Ulysses G.]

English generally should be taught as unaccented as possible. Nearly anybody with a high school education, a TEFL course, and reasonable maturity knows to teach speaking standard English, be they from either Birmingham or either Edinburg(h). Students of EFL should be exposed to several standard pronunciations, but not to extreme regional ones. Some non-native teachers are largely accent-free.

As to the standards of teachers in Chiang Mai, we do not always know, and they vary.

I think you have to make a distinction between clarity and accents. Just because you have difficulty understanding a regional accent doesn't mean they are worse than your accent. Maybe this seems to be an American problem as many seem to be very insular in their attitude to foreign influences.

The RSA/Cambridge University course for teaching English as a foreign language is one of the best credentials for teaching English in the world and they teach that students of EFL should be exposed to several standard pronunciations, but not overly extreme regional ones just as PeaceBlondie said.

I will take their educated opinion over yours anytime.

Edited September 1, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[PeaceBlondie]

We are doing what the OP asked us not to do, although he started it. He complained that Thai teachers of English are not good enough, and schools in Chiang Mai want to satisfy the students' families by hiring true native speakers, free of strong, regional accents. At the salaries currently being paid here (as low as 20,000 per month), it is no wonder that schools are hiring losers. We have a thread on the Teaching Forum of absolute losers in BKK getting 50K. So, parents might ask the admission counselors at Wichai Wittaya, Varee, Prince Royal, Montfort, etc., where their EFL teachers hail from. And how much their EFL native teachers earn. And whether they have work permits. Ask to talk to the teachers or see copies of the work permits.

[keddy]

English generally should be taught as unaccented as possible. Nearly anybody with a high school education, a TEFL course, and reasonable maturity knows to teach speaking standard English, be they from either Birmingham or either Edinburg(h). Students of EFL should be exposed to several standard pronunciations, but not to extreme regional ones. Some non-native teachers are largely accent-free.

As to the standards of teachers in Chiang Mai, we do not always know, and they vary.

I think you have to make a distinction between clarity and accents. Just because you have difficulty understanding a regional accent doesn't mean they are worse than your accent. Maybe this seems to be an American problem as many seem to be very insular in their attitude to foreign influences.

The RSA/Cambridge University course for teaching English as a foreign language is one of the best credentials for teaching English in the world and they teach that students of EFL should be exposed to several standard pronunciations, but not overly extreme regional ones just as PeaceBlondie said.

I will take their educated opinion over yours anytime.

I think you are putting words into my mouth. I never said 'overly extreme regional' accents. I said regional accents. Beside what you mean by 'overly and extreme' is subjective anyway. It sounds like you have difficulty understanding different accents as many of your countrymen seem to do.

[Mapguy]

We are doing what the OP asked us not to do, although he started it. He complained that Thai teachers of English are not good enough, and schools in Chiang Mai want to satisfy the students' families by hiring true native speakers, free of strong, regional accents. At the salaries currently being paid here (as low as 20,000 per month), it is no wonder that schools are hiring losers. We have a thread on the Teaching Forum of absolute losers in BKK getting 50K. So, parents might ask the admission counselors at Wichai Wittaya, Varee, Prince Royal, Montfort, etc., where their EFL teachers hail from. And how much their EFL native teachers earn. And whether they have work permits. Ask to talk to the teachers or see copies of the work permits.

This post touches on some important issues/

As OP, I will say that one ill-expressed major point of mine at the top is that Thai speakers as a group, hard as they might try, can't teach spoken English well. They have learned English from other Thais. That does not work out well. Very few have ever left the country, let alone for a period of time requiring some facility with English suitable for teaching it. This is not meant as a slam upon Thai teachers. It simply recognizes what one would reasonably expect.

A second point is to address the sober observations that there is no "standard English." Never was, actually. It is a wonderfully flexible language that was (fortunately or unfortunately) aided by British imperialism in its sperad and popularity today around the globe. It is the seond most spoken language. Care to guess which is the first? A big prize is offerred! No googling allowed!

But let's get on to something practical and relevant. I have had many teachers of Thai in Thailand, most to my distress although I adjust, or try to! After all, I am not there to teach them English; they are there to teach me Thai. Part of the problem --- not to pass on the blame for my lack of learning facility or laziness in doing homework --- is that their "standard" English is terrible and their vocabulary is limited!!! I am talking about MA English degree holders from Thai universities. I simply often can't understand their English!! There is a lack of appropriate vocabulary as well as pronunciation problems. But we get by!

When I consider that many of my classmates are speaking English as a second, third, or fourth language, I have to admire their persistence in the lack of satisfactory explanation and, secondly, their sheer powers of memorization as well as their (maybe!) facility with learning new languages!! The "Don't explain anything; just tell me!" learning approach is particularly true of Asian learners, who unfortunately are victims of terrible learning systems...but that's another topic.

More specifically --- here in Chiang Mai --- 20,000 baht a month will get you that much experience (on a comparative payscale in UK, AUstralia, USA, et cetra' that is, how far does 20K baht go there?). On the other hand, there are people who understand that you can live nicely in Thailand on that --- and, hello! --- that is more than most experienced government school teachers make by far!

I have personally advised good Thai principals of government schools that they are basically out of luck in hiring good farang teachers to teach English. Not only does it take more than one in a school, it has to be teachers who are shiney-eyed, well-educated idealists and are within walking distance of the nearest pub and who get some money from home from mom and dad as well as their salaries! Finally, if they stay more than a year, the principal ought to check with the parents, older sisters of the students, and the students themselves about untoward advances!

Plese let me close --- it is late and I am very tired --- by asking you to refer to Peace Blondies' questions for school adminstrators. I'd be interested in what sorts of answers you get!!

[Ulysses G.]

English generally should be taught as unaccented as possible. Nearly anybody with a high school education, a TEFL course, and reasonable maturity knows to teach speaking standard English, be they from either Birmingham or either Edinburg(h). Students of EFL should be exposed to several standard pronunciations, but not to extreme regional ones. Some non-native teachers are largely accent-free.

As to the standards of teachers in Chiang Mai, we do not always know, and they vary.

I think you have to make a distinction between clarity and accents. Just because you have difficulty understanding a regional accent doesn't mean they are worse than your accent. Maybe this seems to be an American problem as many seem to be very insular in their attitude to foreign influences.

The RSA/Cambridge University course for teaching English as a foreign language is one of the best credentials for teaching English in the world and they teach that students of EFL should be exposed to several standard pronunciations, but not overly extreme regional ones just as PeaceBlondie said.

I will take their educated opinion over yours anytime.

I think you are putting words into my mouth. I never said 'overly extreme regional' accents. I said regional accents. Beside what you mean by 'overly and extreme' is subjective anyway. It sounds like you have difficulty understanding different accents as many of your countrymen seem to do.

You seem to be a lot more concerned with putting down other people's nationalities than you are with anything to do with teaching English. Keep on trolling.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[keddy]

English generally should be taught as unaccented as possible. Nearly anybody with a high school education, a TEFL course, and reasonable maturity knows to teach speaking standard English, be they from either Birmingham or either Edinburg(h). Students of EFL should be exposed to several standard pronunciations, but not to extreme regional ones. Some non-native teachers are largely accent-free.

As to the standards of teachers in Chiang Mai, we do not always know, and they vary.

I think you have to make a distinction between clarity and accents. Just because you have difficulty understanding a regional accent doesn't mean they are worse than your accent. Maybe this seems to be an American problem as many seem to be very insular in their attitude to foreign influences.

The RSA/Cambridge University course for teaching English as a foreign language is one of the best credentials for teaching English in the world and they teach that students of EFL should be exposed to several standard pronunciations, but not overly extreme regional ones just as PeaceBlondie said.

I will take their educated opinion over yours anytime.

I think you are putting words into my mouth. I never said 'overly extreme regional' accents. I said regional accents. Beside what you mean by 'overly and extreme' is subjective anyway. It sounds like you have difficulty understanding different accents as many of your countrymen seem to do.

You seem to be a lot more concerned with putting down other people's nationalities than you are with anything to do with teaching English. Keep on trolling.

If thats the best you can do I now understand why you have trouble understanding. I'm not here to wind you up or your country or not too much anyway I'm just pointing out that there is a tendency for many North Americans - American or Canadian to see English as this standard thing which, if it doesn't conform to what is perceived as the norm, is therefore not valid. I argue that a wide range of accents are valid and it is enriching for the student to experience them. I find it charming to meet a Thai with a London influence in his accent or even a Virginian one or whatever. I think a lot of north Americans are insular and aren't exposed to a wide range of films,TV or other forms of media from Britain or Australia etc. Britons and Australians on the other hand have been exposed to a wide range of influences, many of them American. This seems to be reflected in their ability to understand other accents. I have also noticed this in many American text books which often don't give a wide spectrum of English accents.

[Ulysses G.]

I have also noticed this in many American text books which often don't give a wide spectrum of English accents.

Do you have to wear a tin foil hat to "hear" the accents in non-American text books?

[PeaceBlondie]

keddy, I know that mapguy was joking about Southern accents, and you were apparently not, but I do not understand why the discussion is so much about accents. As Ulysses points out, what accents can you HEAR in a non-talking textbook? I have had what Americans call a 'radio announcer's voice' since I was a disk jockey at age 15, but I can speak Texan better than that Yankee, G W Bush. I do not even speak American camp when I am in bed. I never speak like Black Americans, nor did most of the professional Blacks I worked with.

All the EFL teachers I have ever known or studied with understood that a more or less standard form of English was how you taught. We Texans and Floridians taught the Thais to say 'y'all,' too. As in "Okay, class, now y'all turn to page see-sip-gaow..."

[keddy]

keddy, I know that mapguy was joking about Southern accents, and you were apparently not, but I do not understand why the discussion is so much about accents. As Ulysses points out, what accents can you HEAR in a non-talking textbook? I have had what Americans call a 'radio announcer's voice' since I was a disk jockey at age 15, but I can speak Texan better than that Yankee, G W Bush. I do not even speak American camp when I am in bed. I never speak like Black Americans, nor did most of the professional Blacks I worked with.

All the EFL teachers I have ever known or studied with understood that a more or less standard form of English was how you taught. We Texans and Floridians taught the Thais to say 'y'all,' too. As in "Okay, class, now y'all turn to page see-sip-gaow..."

The textbooks I'm talking about come with-wait for it-cassettes/CDs/DVDs. (more evidence of North American narrow-mindedness and cultural impoverishment ) However we seem to be talking at cross purposes and either you can't or won't address the points raised or maybe you're writing a different language to me so I won't waste my time any more with this thread but before I go I would like to say one more time there is no standard form of English and if there were the world would be a lot poorer for it.

[Ulysses G.]

The textbooks I'm talking about come with-wait for it-cassettes/CDs/DVDs. (more evidence of North American narrow-mindedness and cultural impoverishment )

These textbooks usually have a British English version and an American English version and the acccents that are presented in the CDs or tapes for both are very simular. The British versions are no better and do not have a wider spectrum of English accents than the American ones.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[PeaceBlondie]

Pardon me for having taught EFL in two of the oldest, high-reputation schools in northern Thailand, where many of the cassettes were in British English, many in American English. The tapes were usually more or less decently produced, but were played on a ten-pound sterling tape recorder, from which no student understood the sound. Thai teachers commented that my voice sounded like the best American announcers/presenters on TV. My Floridian/New Yorker buddy who replaced me, and the guy from London who also replaced me, were understood as well. The Welsh guy had excellent speech; the Black American certified school teacher who was born in Sierra Leone spoke well. The Australian Ph.D. from Queensland was easy to understand. So were the two other guys, from London, and the Asian lady from Vancouver....and Ulysses when he works in the book store....

We have different experiences. I can speak Spanish with a corny West Texas accent that I learned from the Rice Ph.D. hippie....what was your point, keddy? That educated Americans cannot understand Cockney or Gaelic? You do realize, of course, that the major publishers of EFL textbooks are Cambridge and Oxford. They print abridged American short stories where the American detective smokes fags, distances are in meters, front lawns are gardens, and TV announcers on Yank TV are presenters.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

I worked with a Filipino teacher once, and I asked her why Filipinos can speak English well, and Thais not. She simply said that if they are no good, they fail...

[Lordfoul]

That's silly. English is an Official language of the Philippines.

quote name='The Dan Sai Kid' date='2008-09-02 18:01:00' post='2188255']

I worked with a Filipino teacher once, and I asked her why Filipinos can speak English well, and Thais not. She simply said that if they are no good, they fail...

[PeaceBlondie]

One definition of native speaker is that you were raised from an early age, speaking English as a primary or first language. The fact that it is an official language does not exactly apply to the USA, and some countries such as Ireland have additional languages such as Irish which are quite optional. The average American, Brit, Canadian, Aussie, or Kiwi speaks English fluently and fast. Is that true for most average Filipinos?

[Lordfoul]

More true than Thailand as that is the comparison that was being made.

One definition of native speaker is that you were raised from an early age, speaking English as a primary or first language. The fact that it is an official language does not exactly apply to the USA, and some countries such as Ireland have additional languages such as Irish which are quite optional. The average American, Brit, Canadian, Aussie, or Kiwi speaks English fluently and fast. Is that true for most average Filipinos?

[keddy]

The textbooks I'm talking about come with-wait for it-cassettes/CDs/DVDs. (more evidence of North American narrow-mindedness and cultural impoverishment )

These textbooks usually have a British English version and an American English version and the acccents that are presented in the CDs or tapes for both are very simular. The British versions are no better and do not have a wider spectrum of English accents than the American ones.

'

Have you ever compared ' The Cambrige Skills for fluency series, The 'Listen Carefully' series and the 'Natural English' series all with a range of different accents, used in FE colleges in Britain and The British council with 'American Hotline', 'Person to Person' 'Let's talk' and 'Get Real' among others and you'll find they are very different. They use only the 'standard american' accent. Furthermore these books also often seem to use the same actors which don't give the student a range of different voices. My argument is something like having a radio which instead of playing a rich cocktail of sounds from all forms of music, plays only MOR stuff like the Eagles which for the teacher and more importantly the student can be deadly dull after awhile.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

That's silly. English is an Official language of the Philippines.

I think it's fair enough, English is an official language in India, there are millions who can't speak it...

And my point would be that if standards were applied consistently and bad students failed then you wouldn't have situations where someone can become an English teacher and speak awful English.

Edited September 3, 2008 by The Dan Sai Kid