Samak Found Guilty By Court, Must Resign

[animatic]

Hi

is it possible that they (absent MP's, coalition partners etc) try to "stall" the vote until after September 25th to see what Samak's appeal verdict will say? Possibly in order to save them from the joke that they elect a PM - who has to go to jail a few days later, in which case of course YET another PM has to be nominated (and voted for).

I mean, come on - pretty much the whole country appears to be against Samak (except for PPP), he was kicked out for violating the constitution and has an appeal verdict coming up 13 days from now that may result in him going straight to jail - what's the rush to get him back into office? Don't forget - PPP might get disbanded in a short while, too.

Me thinks it's only because someone in London dictates the course of the action...... using the might Baht as an instrument. But of course, i do not have any evidence for that.

I just hope PAD can hold on long enough, DAAD and PPP keep their cool (after all there seem to be people in that party who slowly open their eyes) so that the whole situation can find a happy end, a compromise of sorts - something which everyone can accept and be happy with.

Question. Can a person who is NOT member of any political party become prime minister?

regards.....

Thanh

Only an elected MP can become PM

By the way, rememeber that Thaksin need scontinuing confrontation and division to keep his side calling for the constitutional ammendment which set s him and his money free. If there is any compromise those ammendments will be dead. He is fighting hard now to make sure this doesnt happen. Unleashing Newin's is he still in the UK too?) paid hordes may be not that far off if it look slike any compromise deal is coming. Other options will involve offering all kind of weirods cabinet posts and vast amounts of moolah, if he still has enough left. Then again the lucre bait could be something his enemies now have an advantage in if the business community decides enough is enough.

Kuhn Newin, decided to stay,

or lost his bags and his booking...

Someone decided he was needed as local arm twister.

As of the moment the paid hordes are not needed, but

a national unity government with Dems in it

would certainly qualify as something Dr. T. would want discredited super fast,

and thus UDD and DAAD could be brought back.

Dems in any power sharing no amendments for Dr. T.

i.e. Huge loss of cash and face.

The only route to his money and a return to power is the appearance of chaos

that he can regulate at will. Sounds like an oxymoron...

But his side will go in madly, and the other side will simply stand it's ground.

I think the implementation of the new Army list is a definite line of demarcation.

Does Dr. T. think he has e moved enough bishops and rooks into place to win the fight yet?

More thrills and spills coming ahead on the Thailand Wirlygig Coaster of Delight.

[ando]

Well this may be a well ordered and stated reasoning.

But the one thing it makes clear is that you are 100% for the powers that be at the moment

TRT/PPP /Thakin's minions, no matter what their ends or ethics of actions.

Finally you have stepped from behind the curtain of faux impartiality into the light of day.

The General has been saying he will not move repeatedly.

You seem to say he isn't, and is waiting to attack.

He has made efforts to avoid confrontation to the point of

standing off Samak's escalation towards violence.

You finally state that you are against unity if the opposition is in the lead on it.

Ho hum, much as suspected.

A strange and disjointed reply. Do you have a point you wish to make?

[animatic]

Only the sitting PM can dissolve the House, afaik - means they have to elect someone first.

just my idea: if enough MP resign, the parliament is dissolving itself automatic, or? At least it is outside the constitution and something must be done.

That might be a technical way of getting the same result, or?

The choices are:

1. PPP pull it off for a tad longer and get enough votes to push Samak through

2. PPP nominate one of Thaksin's relatives as PM and get coaliton support

3. Banharn or Snoh get nominated with broad support by either PPP or Dems

4. Government of national unity

5. Elections

6. Coup

Interstingly Gen. Anupong is backing number 4. Number 1 or 2 could easily result in number 6. Number 3 is always a possibility and number 4 could be combined with number 3. Nobody except a few academics currently seem to want number 5 as the parties lack money and a disolution during an election campaign would leave MPs with no party to run under as they need to be mebers for a set period to run. The military dont seem to want number 6. Also bear in mind the media, the business sector and foreign investors have had enough and are increasingly looking for stability which is a subtle change from talking democracy. One thing I hear is exasperation that the politicians are not talking. That could signal anything if the poltiicans dont come up with the goods. Goevrnment of national unity may be the only way to avoid further chaos now. The problem is that it doesnt suit Thaksin at all and he controls a lot of MPs and I wouldnt say the Isaan Pattana are defying him to any degree yet.

A government of national unity would be a dangerous proposition for democracy at this stage because it would hamstring the elected government by diluting their power on crucial issues. The opposition already has the opportunity to debate issues in parliament and to vote on general issues. The Democrats have been conspicuously quiet throughout this whole crisis with only a few feeble attempts to get involved such as thier attempted vote of no confidence in the government and some media releases supporting PAD. Handing the opposition the balance of power in government is not a solution and would likely end up with minority coalition partners switching back and forwards between sides to further their own interests.

Certainly I would endorse a national unity government in a time of anarchy such as when the politically incompetent military oust the elected government, however just because there is coalition disagreement over who should be PM and a group of hard core protesters on the street is no reason to invent some new form of government.

General Anupong had his chance to have his say at the ballot box the same as any other citizen. He is not elected by the people and has no right to interfere in politics or the government under a democratic system. In fact in any established, mature democratic system of government it is protocol for heads of the military to remain neutral regarding politics. Military involvement in Thai politics is at the core of much of the ongoing problems in the country. Rather than being the self appointed saviours of the people as the have claimed after seizing power in the past, they are a severe destabilizing element in the democratic process. The fact that the military has ousted governments 18 times in the past 60 years and democratically elected governments are unable to operate effectively without fear of a military coup at any time is a serious obstacle to democracy and the cause of much of the countries problems.

The main crucial issue the government would be hamstrung on in a government of national unity would be the constitutional ammendment to unfetter lord T and his servitors. Apart from that there is virtually no policy difference between parties. There is no winner takes all solution. Democracy is not just oh we won a bigger minority in the election than you and so we can do anything. That is Thaksinocracy but not democracy which is a lot more complicated.

There is no better democratic option than a government of national unity which by the way consists of PPP and Dems and so wouldnt rely on any minor party support unless someone decided to include them. Right now the copuntry is regionally divided. Do we want to see ethnic cleansing of minority view points form areas? Maybe that is extreme, but if mionority viewpoints cannot be expressed in areas because of fear then we already have no democracy and that is where we are quickly heading.

As stated earlier, I believe a government of national unity would be acceptable under circumstances where there was a state of anarchy. There is no need to rewrite the rules of democracy right now just because the coallition government is in disagreement over who should be PM and street protests by an illegal mob representing a small minority of the population. I havnt read the constitution in any detail but I would imagine a government of national unity would be outside its bounds? Not sure on that one. With respect, perhaps you could elaborate?

The crisis we now have with PAD illegally occupying government house is one of the armies making. In a mature democracy these illegal protesters would have been moved on by use of all reasonable force and the leaders arrested. However the generals refusal to remove the protesters and the threat that they would intervene if there was violence (meaning if the government sends in police riot squad) allows this farcical stand off to continue.

No mature democracy in the world would tolerate such a situation. Yet in Thailand, because of the ever present threat of a military take over of political power it seems normal to propose a compromise sort of democracy such as a government of national unity and/or an appointed government .

Regardless of how corrupt some politicians might be it is a very dangerous precedent to start bargaining a way out by sacrificing basic principles of democracy.

First its a government of national unity and then its an appointed government overseen by the military.

The only way for Thailand to progress into a modern democracy is to let the courts deal with the crooked politicians and political law breakers, and allow true democracy to run its course without compromise. Buckling under pressure now and inventing some new form of government would set the country back decades and lead to a legalized form of dictatorship where by the wealthy elite rule over the poor majority backed up by force of arms provided by the military.

Thailand is a t a turning point in their political history right now. The courts are coming down on the crooked politicians and appear to be doing their job. Now at this crucial point is not the time to compromise the principles of democracy.

Well put Ando- those advocating a government of national unity are essentially advocating that the current government resign- and thereby playing right into the hands- not just of the PAD- but the historical tendency for governments in THailand to be forced out of power. This would actually serve as one more instance to justify the notion that democracy just can't function in THailand and thus a new political scheme must be devised. It is not the Samak government that is at risk here- it is the future of any hope for a more egalitarian state.

:D

Yes the proper legal functioning of a parlementary system is cause for a loss of all hope.

UNITY MUST BE A BAD THING... if you side isn't on top!

[ando]

[ Im not sure what cluhching at straws refers to.

"Clutching at straws" means something like clinging onto unrealistic expectations out of desperation.

I thought you would have known that.

[animatic]

The rioting gang leader speaks out again... with news from London?

Jatuporn says House may be dissolved

People Power Party MP Jatuporn Promphan said Friday that the House might be dissolved if the choice of the next prime minister could not be agreed upon.

Jatuporn said he considered that the five coalition partners showed their friendly gesture to the PPP after seeing that PPP MPs could not agree among themselves on the choice of the next PM.

"If no agreement could be reached, we may have to return the ruling mandate to the people by dissolving the House," Jatuporn said.

- The Nation

The partners bailed on them,

but a little spin control, might save some face...

Kind gesture HAH!

[ando]

:D

Yes the proper legal functioning of a parlementary system is cause for a loss of all hope.

UNITY MUST BE A BAD THING... if you side isn't on top!

Wont ever happen. So don't get too excited there.

[Guest Reimar]

From Thailand Outlook Channel:

Somkiart Calls for MPs to Honor Constitution, Vote for Honest PM UPDATE : 12 September 2008

People's Alliance for Democracy leader and Democrat MP Somkiart Pongpaiboon said he’s appalled by the willingness of MPs to accept money in return for their votes in Parliament. He’s called for his fellow MPs to honor the Constitution and vote for an honest person to the post of prime minister.

PAD leader and Democrat MP Somkiart Pongpaiboon called for Members of Parliament to withdraw their support for former PM Samak Sundaravej. Somkiart shared with PAD supporters reports about a widespread division within the People Power party.

Since yesterday there have been reports of multiple factions of MPs within the PPP wanting to vote against the party's resolution to support Samak.

Somkiart alleged that a large sum of money, as much as ten million baht per MP, is being used to convince the MPs to change their minds about Samak. He added that Samak is desperate to come back as PM to reap benefits from various governmental projects.

Somkiart said the move to re-elect Samak as PM is a direct challenge to the power of the people.

The PAD leader has called for the coalition parties to have the nation’s interest at heart and honor the Constitution by voting for an honest and well-respected premier. Somkiart believed the voting should be truly independent and not influenced by ministerial quotas or each party’s own interest. He said this is the final chance for the MPs to work for the people.

[animatic]

Well this may be a well ordered and stated reasoning.

But the one thing it makes clear is that you are 100% for the powers that be at the moment

TRT/PPP /Thakin's minions, no matter what their ends or ethics of actions.

Finally you have stepped from behind the curtain of faux impartiality into the light of day.

The General has been saying he will not move repeatedly.

You seem to say he isn't, and is waiting to attack.

He has made efforts to avoid confrontation to the point of

standing off Samak's escalation towards violence.

You finally state that you are against unity if the opposition is in the lead on it.

Ho hum, much as suspected.

A strange and disjointed reply. Do you have a point you wish to make?

4 points clearly stated.

[ando]

Well this may be a well ordered and stated reasoning.

But the one thing it makes clear is that you are 100% for the powers that be at the moment

TRT/PPP /Thakin's minions, no matter what their ends or ethics of actions.

Finally you have stepped from behind the curtain of faux impartiality into the light of day.

The General has been saying he will not move repeatedly.

You seem to say he isn't, and is waiting to attack.

He has made efforts to avoid confrontation to the point of

standing off Samak's escalation towards violence.

You finally state that you are against unity if the opposition is in the lead on it.

Ho hum, much as suspected.

A strange and disjointed reply. Do you have a point you wish to make?

4 points clearly stated.

Really?

[Guest Reimar]

from Thailand Outlook Channel:

Senator Threatens to File Suit against MPs Who Vote for Samak as PM

UPDATE : 12 September 2008

The senator who brought former PM Samak Sundaravej to his knees in the cooking show case insists Samak cannot be reinstated as premier. He has threatened to file suits against any MP who votes Samak back.

Despite the delay of the House session to vote for the new prime minister, People Power MPs seem intent on their nomination of Samak Sundaravej as their PM candidate.

Senator Ruengkrai Leekitwattana, who spearheaded the filing of the cooking show case that saw the Constitution Court strip Samak of his post, insists the former PM does not have the legitimacy to return to the post.

The senator cited article 102 of the Constitution, which bars those who were dismissed from a state agency or state enterprise for corruption from becoming an MP, as well as article 174, which states that ministers must not have the traits stated in article 102. Therefore, the Constitution Court's ruling against Samak means he should not return to the PM post.

Ruengkrai said if the House persists in voting for Samak as PM, he will join ten or 15 senators to petition the Senate speaker and ask the Constitution Court to rule whether Samak lacks the qualifications to become PM according to the mentioned articles of the Constitution.

He also warned that the MPs who vote for Samak may have suits filed against them.

[animatic]

from Thailand Outlook Channel:

Senator Threatens to File Suit against MPs Who Vote for Samak as PM

UPDATE : 12 September 2008

The senator who brought former PM Samak Sundaravej to his knees in the cooking show case insists Samak cannot be reinstated as premier. He has threatened to file suits against any MP who votes Samak back.

Despite the delay of the House session to vote for the new prime minister, People Power MPs seem intent on their nomination of Samak Sundaravej as their PM candidate.

Senator Ruengkrai Leekitwattana, who spearheaded the filing of the cooking show case that saw the Constitution Court strip Samak of his post, insists the former PM does not have the legitimacy to return to the post.

The senator cited article 102 of the Constitution, which bars those who were dismissed from a state agency or state enterprise for corruption from becoming an MP, as well as article 174, which states that ministers must not have the traits stated in article 102. Therefore, the Constitution Court's ruling against Samak means he should not return to the PM post.

Ruengkrai said if the House persists in voting for Samak as PM, he will join ten or 15 senators to petition the Senate speaker and ask the Constitution Court to rule whether Samak lacks the qualifications to become PM according to the mentioned articles of the Constitution.

He also warned that the MPs who vote for Samak may have suits filed against them.

Looks like the right man for the job.

[Artisi]

Samak to resign as party leader: source

Samak Sundaravej plans to resign as the People Power Party leader and will not accept his nomination as the next prime minister, a source close to him said Friday.

The Nation

Please clean out your desk, return you pencils and sharpener and don't come back.

Edited September 12, 2008 by Artisi

[benz123]

Samak withdraws his bid to become prime minister

Power People Party's leader Samak Sundaravej has decided to end his bid to become prime minister, a PPP MP said Friday.

Somsak Kietsuranont, also PPP executive member, said that now it is understood that Samak who is disqualified for violating charter, has decided not to accept his party's nomination for him to be prime minister again.

[clausewitz]

As the Economist states, "The PAD's leaders are neither liberals nor democrats. A gruesome bunch of reactionary businessmen, generals and aristocrats, they demand not fresh elections, which they would lose, but a return to old-fashioned authoritarian rule, with a mostly appointed parliament and powers for the army to step in when it chooses."

Samak might be cooking a foul stew, but anything beats having animals like the PAD involved in government!

That is a quote worth requoting.

[Samuian]

....a large sum of money, as much as ten million baht per MP, is being used to convince the MPs to change their minds about Samak. He added that Samak is desperate to come back as PM to reap benefits from various governmental projects.

.

And in the face of a couple of billions of frozen assets, few hundred millions is peanuts and still considered a wise investment - hope only this times the guards are NOT leaving the observation towers!

as the pm may have received in advance... he miht be pushed to deliver... remember, the ones up front are the coolies and they all follow a patron as it is custom here for centuries!

[animatic]

As the Economist states, "The PAD's leaders are neither liberals nor democrats. A gruesome bunch of reactionary businessmen, generals and aristocrats, they demand not fresh elections, which they would lose, but a return to old-fashioned authoritarian rule, with a mostly appointed parliament and powers for the army to step in when it chooses."

Samak might be cooking a foul stew, but anything beats having animals like the PAD involved in government!

That is a quote worth requoting.

If you like who's robbing the store,

shoot the watchdog for them.

[ando]

from Thailand Outlook Channel:

Senator Threatens to File Suit against MPs Who Vote for Samak as PM

UPDATE : 12 September 2008

The senator who brought former PM Samak Sundaravej to his knees in the cooking show case insists Samak cannot be reinstated as premier. He has threatened to file suits against any MP who votes Samak back.

Despite the delay of the House session to vote for the new prime minister, People Power MPs seem intent on their nomination of Samak Sundaravej as their PM candidate.

Senator Ruengkrai Leekitwattana, who spearheaded the filing of the cooking show case that saw the Constitution Court strip Samak of his post, insists the former PM does not have the legitimacy to return to the post.

The senator cited article 102 of the Constitution, which bars those who were dismissed from a state agency or state enterprise for corruption from becoming an MP, as well as article 174, which states that ministers must not have the traits stated in article 102. Therefore, the Constitution Court's ruling against Samak means he should not return to the PM post.

Ruengkrai said if the House persists in voting for Samak as PM, he will join ten or 15 senators to petition the Senate speaker and ask the Constitution Court to rule whether Samak lacks the qualifications to become PM according to the mentioned articles of the Constitution.

He also warned that the MPs who vote for Samak may have suits filed against them.

This is a perfect example of the pitfalls in introducing a new constitution every couple of years. No one really knows what it means or is meant to mean. Ultimately the courts have to make the interpretation and by that time there is a new constitution to deal with. No stability in the country with the ground rules changing at the whim of politically incompetent generals every time they decide to take over government. Its like watching a bunch of kids playing house.

Geese, they only had elections 9 months ago after the last coup and already there are calls for an entirely new political system. This chopping and changing isn't going to do the country much good. 60 years of it and 18 coups, you would think they might have learned.

Edited September 12, 2008 by ando

[animatic]

....a large sum of money, as much as ten million baht per MP, is being used to convince the MPs to change their minds about Samak. He added that Samak is desperate to come back as PM to reap benefits from various governmental projects.

.

And in the face of a couple of billions of frozen assets, few hundred millions is peanuts and still considered a wise investment - hope only this times the guards are NOT leaving the observation towers!

as the pm may have received in advance... he miht be pushed to deliver... remember, the ones up front are the coolies and they all follow a patron as it is custom here for centuries!

Yep!

Patronage like slim, slides downhill.

Looks like K. Samak's 'golden parachut'e may be gilt brass after all.

I will give him credit for brassing it out to the bitter end.

Get thee to a rhododendrin!

[Artisi]

....a large sum of money, as much as ten million baht per MP, is being used to convince the MPs to change their minds about Samak. He added that Samak is desperate to come back as PM to reap benefits from various governmental projects.

.

And in the face of a couple of billions of frozen assets, few hundred millions is peanuts and still considered a wise investment - hope only this times the guards are NOT leaving the observation towers!

as the pm may have received in advance... he miht be pushed to deliver... remember, the ones up front are the coolies and they all follow a patron as it is custom here for centuries!

Yep!

Patronage like slim, slides downhill.

Looks like K. Samak's 'golden parachut'e may be gilt brass after all.

I will give him credit for brassing it out to the bitter end.

Get thee to a rhododendrin!

I'm sure he will have a soft landing in specially prepared cell somewhere.

[Nampeung]

Is this the thread of choice now to discuss Samak and the current situation??? Can the Mods close some of the other ones pleeeeeze? It's extremely confusing and has the effect of making one apathetic to read them all

[animatic]

from Thailand Outlook Channel:

Senator Threatens to File Suit against MPs Who Vote for Samak as PM

UPDATE : 12 September 2008

The senator who brought former PM Samak Sundaravej to his knees in the cooking show case insists Samak cannot be reinstated as premier. He has threatened to file suits against any MP who votes Samak back.

Despite the delay of the House session to vote for the new prime minister, People Power MPs seem intent on their nomination of Samak Sundaravej as their PM candidate.

Senator Ruengkrai Leekitwattana, who spearheaded the filing of the cooking show case that saw the Constitution Court strip Samak of his post, insists the former PM does not have the legitimacy to return to the post.

The senator cited article 102 of the Constitution, which bars those who were dismissed from a state agency or state enterprise for corruption from becoming an MP, as well as article 174, which states that ministers must not have the traits stated in article 102. Therefore, the Constitution Court's ruling against Samak means he should not return to the PM post.

Ruengkrai said if the House persists in voting for Samak as PM, he will join ten or 15 senators to petition the Senate speaker and ask the Constitution Court to rule whether Samak lacks the qualifications to become PM according to the mentioned articles of the Constitution.

He also warned that the MPs who vote for Samak may have suits filed against them.

This is a perfect example of the pitfalls in introducing a new constitution every couple of years. No one really knows what it means or is meant to mean. Ultimately the courts have to make the interpretation and by that time there is a new constitution to deal with. No stability in the country with the ground rules changing at the whim of politically incompetent generals every time they decide to take over government. Its like watching a bunch of kids playing house.

Geese, they only had elections 9 months ago after the last coup and already there are calls for an entirely new political system. This chopping and changing isn't going to do the country much good. 60 years of it and 18 coups, you would think they might have learned.

For once we agree. took long enough.

Self interest trumps common sense.

Inspite of the indoctrination of scouting and school uniforms,

there is little sense of team work other than clan affiliations.

And THAT is the old feudal system on ALL levels of society.

PPP is as much a feudal construct as the old families behind PAD.

Just new financial modailties to hold it together.

The questiont them becomes

WHICH CAUSES THE LEAST LONG TERM DAMAGE.

Socialists say PPP

Orderly society / anti-corruption mavens say some other construct.

[ubonjoe]

from Thailand Outlook Channel:

Senator Threatens to File Suit against MPs Who Vote for Samak as PM

UPDATE : 12 September 2008

The senator who brought former PM Samak Sundaravej to his knees in the cooking show case insists Samak cannot be reinstated as premier. He has threatened to file suits against any MP who votes Samak back.

Despite the delay of the House session to vote for the new prime minister, People Power MPs seem intent on their nomination of Samak Sundaravej as their PM candidate.

Senator Ruengkrai Leekitwattana, who spearheaded the filing of the cooking show case that saw the Constitution Court strip Samak of his post, insists the former PM does not have the legitimacy to return to the post.

The senator cited article 102 of the Constitution, which bars those who were dismissed from a state agency or state enterprise for corruption from becoming an MP, as well as article 174, which states that ministers must not have the traits stated in article 102. Therefore, the Constitution Court's ruling against Samak means he should not return to the PM post.

Ruengkrai said if the House persists in voting for Samak as PM, he will join ten or 15 senators to petition the Senate speaker and ask the Constitution Court to rule whether Samak lacks the qualifications to become PM according to the mentioned articles of the Constitution.

He also warned that the MPs who vote for Samak may have suits filed against them.

This is a perfect example of the pitfalls in introducing a new constitution every couple of years. No one really knows what it means or is meant to mean. Ultimately the courts have to make the interpretation and by that time there is a new constitution to deal with. No stability in the country with the ground rules changing at the whim of politically incompetent generals every time they decide to take over government. Its like watching a bunch of kids playing house.

Geese, they only had elections 9 months ago after the last coup and already there are calls for an entirely new political system. This chopping and changing isn't going to do the country much good. 60 years of it and 18 coups, you would think they might have learned.

True

Look at the US. 230+ years and you still see the Supreme Court making interpretations.

[ando]

from Thailand Outlook Channel:

Senator Threatens to File Suit against MPs Who Vote for Samak as PM

UPDATE : 12 September 2008

The senator who brought former PM Samak Sundaravej to his knees in the cooking show case insists Samak cannot be reinstated as premier. He has threatened to file suits against any MP who votes Samak back.

Despite the delay of the House session to vote for the new prime minister, People Power MPs seem intent on their nomination of Samak Sundaravej as their PM candidate.

Senator Ruengkrai Leekitwattana, who spearheaded the filing of the cooking show case that saw the Constitution Court strip Samak of his post, insists the former PM does not have the legitimacy to return to the post.

The senator cited article 102 of the Constitution, which bars those who were dismissed from a state agency or state enterprise for corruption from becoming an MP, as well as article 174, which states that ministers must not have the traits stated in article 102. Therefore, the Constitution Court's ruling against Samak means he should not return to the PM post.

Ruengkrai said if the House persists in voting for Samak as PM, he will join ten or 15 senators to petition the Senate speaker and ask the Constitution Court to rule whether Samak lacks the qualifications to become PM according to the mentioned articles of the Constitution.

He also warned that the MPs who vote for Samak may have suits filed against them.

This is a perfect example of the pitfalls in introducing a new constitution every couple of years. No one really knows what it means or is meant to mean. Ultimately the courts have to make the interpretation and by that time there is a new constitution to deal with. No stability in the country with the ground rules changing at the whim of politically incompetent generals every time they decide to take over government. Its like watching a bunch of kids playing house.

Geese, they only had elections 9 months ago after the last coup and already there are calls for an entirely new political system. This chopping and changing isn't going to do the country much good. 60 years of it and 18 coups, you would think they might have learned.

For once we agree. took long enough.

Self interest trumps common sense.

Inspite of the indoctrination of scouting and school uniforms,

there is little sense of team work other than clan affiliations.

And THAT is the old feudal system on ALL levels of society.

PPP is as much a feudal construct as the old families behind PAD.

Just new financial modailties to hold it together.

The questiont them becomes

WHICH CAUSES THE LEAST LONG TERM DAMAGE.

Socialists say PPP

Orderly society / anti-corruption mavens say some other construct.

You are obviously operating on a different mental level to me. Whatever you are smoking, please stop and try to make some sense.

[blaze]

Only the sitting PM can dissolve the House, afaik - means they have to elect someone first.

just my idea: if enough MP resign, the parliament is dissolving itself automatic, or? At least it is outside the constitution and something must be done.

That might be a technical way of getting the same result, or?

The choices are:

1. PPP pull it off for a tad longer and get enough votes to push Samak through

2. PPP nominate one of Thaksin's relatives as PM and get coaliton support

3. Banharn or Snoh get nominated with broad support by either PPP or Dems

4. Government of national unity

5. Elections

6. Coup

Interstingly Gen. Anupong is backing number 4. Number 1 or 2 could easily result in number 6. Number 3 is always a possibility and number 4 could be combined with number 3. Nobody except a few academics currently seem to want number 5 as the parties lack money and a disolution during an election campaign would leave MPs with no party to run under as they need to be mebers for a set period to run. The military dont seem to want number 6. Also bear in mind the media, the business sector and foreign investors have had enough and are increasingly looking for stability which is a subtle change from talking democracy. One thing I hear is exasperation that the politicians are not talking. That could signal anything if the poltiicans dont come up with the goods. Goevrnment of national unity may be the only way to avoid further chaos now. The problem is that it doesnt suit Thaksin at all and he controls a lot of MPs and I wouldnt say the Isaan Pattana are defying him to any degree yet.

A government of national unity would be a dangerous proposition for democracy at this stage because it would hamstring the elected government by diluting their power on crucial issues. The opposition already has the opportunity to debate issues in parliament and to vote on general issues. The Democrats have been conspicuously quiet throughout this whole crisis with only a few feeble attempts to get involved such as thier attempted vote of no confidence in the government and some media releases supporting PAD. Handing the opposition the balance of power in government is not a solution and would likely end up with minority coalition partners switching back and forwards between sides to further their own interests.

Certainly I would endorse a national unity government in a time of anarchy such as when the politically incompetent military oust the elected government, however just because there is coalition disagreement over who should be PM and a group of hard core protesters on the street is no reason to invent some new form of government.

General Anupong had his chance to have his say at the ballot box the same as any other citizen. He is not elected by the people and has no right to interfere in politics or the government under a democratic system. In fact in any established, mature democratic system of government it is protocol for heads of the military to remain neutral regarding politics. Military involvement in Thai politics is at the core of much of the ongoing problems in the country. Rather than being the self appointed saviours of the people as the have claimed after seizing power in the past, they are a severe destabilizing element in the democratic process. The fact that the military has ousted governments 18 times in the past 60 years and democratically elected governments are unable to operate effectively without fear of a military coup at any time is a serious obstacle to democracy and the cause of much of the countries problems.

The main crucial issue the government would be hamstrung on in a government of national unity would be the constitutional ammendment to unfetter lord T and his servitors. Apart from that there is virtually no policy difference between parties. There is no winner takes all solution. Democracy is not just oh we won a bigger minority in the election than you and so we can do anything. That is Thaksinocracy but not democracy which is a lot more complicated.

There is no better democratic option than a government of national unity which by the way consists of PPP and Dems and so wouldnt rely on any minor party support unless someone decided to include them. Right now the copuntry is regionally divided. Do we want to see ethnic cleansing of minority view points form areas? Maybe that is extreme, but if mionority viewpoints cannot be expressed in areas because of fear then we already have no democracy and that is where we are quickly heading.

As stated earlier, I believe a government of national unity would be acceptable under circumstances where there was a state of anarchy. There is no need to rewrite the rules of democracy right now just because the coallition government is in disagreement over who should be PM and street protests by an illegal mob representing a small minority of the population. I havnt read the constitution in any detail but I would imagine a government of national unity would be outside its bounds? Not sure on that one. With respect, perhaps you could elaborate?

The crisis we now have with PAD illegally occupying government house is one of the armies making. In a mature democracy these illegal protesters would have been moved on by use of all reasonable force and the leaders arrested. However the generals refusal to remove the protesters and the threat that they would intervene if there was violence (meaning if the government sends in police riot squad) allows this farcical stand off to continue.

No mature democracy in the world would tolerate such a situation. Yet in Thailand, because of the ever present threat of a military take over of political power it seems normal to propose a compromise sort of democracy such as a government of national unity and/or an appointed government .

Regardless of how corrupt some politicians might be it is a very dangerous precedent to start bargaining a way out by sacrificing basic principles of democracy.

First its a government of national unity and then its an appointed government overseen by the military.

The only way for Thailand to progress into a modern democracy is to let the courts deal with the crooked politicians and political law breakers, and allow true democracy to run its course without compromise. Buckling under pressure now and inventing some new form of government would set the country back decades and lead to a legalized form of dictatorship where by the wealthy elite rule over the poor majority backed up by force of arms provided by the military.

Thailand is a t a turning point in their political history right now. The courts are coming down on the crooked politicians and appear to be doing their job. Now at this crucial point is not the time to compromise the principles of democracy.

Well put Ando- those advocating a government of national unity are essentially advocating that the current government resign- and thereby playing right into the hands- not just of the PAD- but the historical tendency for governments in THailand to be forced out of power. This would actually serve as one more instance to justify the notion that democracy just can't function in THailand and thus a new political scheme must be devised. It is not the Samak government that is at risk here- it is the future of any hope for a more egalitarian state.

:D

Yes the proper legal functioning of a parlementary system is cause for a loss of all hope.

UNITY MUST BE A BAD THING... if you side isn't on top!

No the proper legal functioning of a parliamentary system is precisely what has to be given the opportunity to develop. And that won't happen as long as governments are not permitted to serve their terms -either because of coups- or because of street pressure- and were it not for street pressure, nobody would even be talking about unity government. Thailand has too long a history of governments caving. Eventually it's the priciples that are at stake- not the specific government- though this government is about as unprincipled as they come- the system it represents- in its ideal form- is the embodiment of great principles. And it's the system that must be allowed to take root- cleaned up= yes- but not trashed.

[h90]

from Thailand Outlook Channel:

Senator Threatens to File Suit against MPs Who Vote for Samak as PM

UPDATE : 12 September 2008

The senator who brought former PM Samak Sundaravej to his knees in the cooking show case insists Samak cannot be reinstated as premier. He has threatened to file suits against any MP who votes Samak back.

Despite the delay of the House session to vote for the new prime minister, People Power MPs seem intent on their nomination of Samak Sundaravej as their PM candidate.

Senator Ruengkrai Leekitwattana, who spearheaded the filing of the cooking show case that saw the Constitution Court strip Samak of his post, insists the former PM does not have the legitimacy to return to the post.

The senator cited article 102 of the Constitution, which bars those who were dismissed from a state agency or state enterprise for corruption from becoming an MP, as well as article 174, which states that ministers must not have the traits stated in article 102. Therefore, the Constitution Court's ruling against Samak means he should not return to the PM post.

Ruengkrai said if the House persists in voting for Samak as PM, he will join ten or 15 senators to petition the Senate speaker and ask the Constitution Court to rule whether Samak lacks the qualifications to become PM according to the mentioned articles of the Constitution.

He also warned that the MPs who vote for Samak may have suits filed against them.

10 MegaBaht is a lot money if you need 240 MPs

[LaoPo]

It's not so much the "internal party politics" as it the internal family politics that I have difficulty with. Does any other "democracy throughout the world" compare with the sheer numbers involved with in the current government?

I don't think many will disagree with you here. We ALL know that.

And YOU and me, and all other members are not able to EVER change those internal family ties in Thai politics; not even your cloudburst of daily posts will be able to EVER even change 1 Pro Mille because these families never heard about SRJ or LaoPo

And, now that you mentioned it: about family ties in "other democracies throughout the world"....I watched this serious documentary last night about the Bush family and their allies around them and what really happened around 9/11.

Now, THAT's a REAL SHOCKING SOAP OPERA

The political turmoil in Thailand is like comparing watching a crawling baby and a fighting super monster. Speaking about corruption....

But, to be fair (and you know I am) there are probably not so many internal families involved in Washington DC as in Bangkok; maybe a few less.

LaoPo

[kurtgruen]

The questiont them becomes

WHICH CAUSES THE LEAST LONG TERM DAMAGE.

Socialists say PPP

Good evening everyone,

I am a socialist, so are many of my Union brothers in Thailand. We are definitely not saying PPP, as should be obvious, from the support for the PAD, by Union members.

The most long term damage, in my opinion, will be caused by corruption. Corrupt politics don't equal good democracy! Rampant vote buying doesn't equal Democracy! Attempting to silence the judicial system, for ones own good, doesn't equal democracy either.

[ubonjoe]

from Thailand Outlook Channel:

Senator Threatens to File Suit against MPs Who Vote for Samak as PM

UPDATE : 12 September 2008

The senator who brought former PM Samak Sundaravej to his knees in the cooking show case insists Samak cannot be reinstated as premier. He has threatened to file suits against any MP who votes Samak back.

Despite the delay of the House session to vote for the new prime minister, People Power MPs seem intent on their nomination of Samak Sundaravej as their PM candidate.

Senator Ruengkrai Leekitwattana, who spearheaded the filing of the cooking show case that saw the Constitution Court strip Samak of his post, insists the former PM does not have the legitimacy to return to the post.

The senator cited article 102 of the Constitution, which bars those who were dismissed from a state agency or state enterprise for corruption from becoming an MP, as well as article 174, which states that ministers must not have the traits stated in article 102. Therefore, the Constitution Court's ruling against Samak means he should not return to the PM post.

Ruengkrai said if the House persists in voting for Samak as PM, he will join ten or 15 senators to petition the Senate speaker and ask the Constitution Court to rule whether Samak lacks the qualifications to become PM according to the mentioned articles of the Constitution.

He also warned that the MPs who vote for Samak may have suits filed against them.

10 MegaBaht is a lot money if you need 240 MPs

It appears to me that this is a dead subject since Samak has pullled out of the race.

Edited September 12, 2008 by ubonjoe

[hammered]

Only the sitting PM can dissolve the House, afaik - means they have to elect someone first.

just my idea: if enough MP resign, the parliament is dissolving itself automatic, or? At least it is outside the constitution and something must be done.

That might be a technical way of getting the same result, or?

The choices are:

1. PPP pull it off for a tad longer and get enough votes to push Samak through

2. PPP nominate one of Thaksin's relatives as PM and get coaliton support

3. Banharn or Snoh get nominated with broad support by either PPP or Dems

4. Government of national unity

5. Elections

6. Coup

Interstingly Gen. Anupong is backing number 4. Number 1 or 2 could easily result in number 6. Number 3 is always a possibility and number 4 could be combined with number 3. Nobody except a few academics currently seem to want number 5 as the parties lack money and a disolution during an election campaign would leave MPs with no party to run under as they need to be mebers for a set period to run. The military dont seem to want number 6. Also bear in mind the media, the business sector and foreign investors have had enough and are increasingly looking for stability which is a subtle change from talking democracy. One thing I hear is exasperation that the politicians are not talking. That could signal anything if the poltiicans dont come up with the goods. Goevrnment of national unity may be the only way to avoid further chaos now. The problem is that it doesnt suit Thaksin at all and he controls a lot of MPs and I wouldnt say the Isaan Pattana are defying him to any degree yet.

A government of national unity would be a dangerous proposition for democracy at this stage because it would hamstring the elected government by diluting their power on crucial issues. The opposition already has the opportunity to debate issues in parliament and to vote on general issues. The Democrats have been conspicuously quiet throughout this whole crisis with only a few feeble attempts to get involved such as thier attempted vote of no confidence in the government and some media releases supporting PAD. Handing the opposition the balance of power in government is not a solution and would likely end up with minority coalition partners switching back and forwards between sides to further their own interests.

Certainly I would endorse a national unity government in a time of anarchy such as when the politically incompetent military oust the elected government, however just because there is coalition disagreement over who should be PM and a group of hard core protesters on the street is no reason to invent some new form of government.

General Anupong had his chance to have his say at the ballot box the same as any other citizen. He is not elected by the people and has no right to interfere in politics or the government under a democratic system. In fact in any established, mature democratic system of government it is protocol for heads of the military to remain neutral regarding politics. Military involvement in Thai politics is at the core of much of the ongoing problems in the country. Rather than being the self appointed saviours of the people as the have claimed after seizing power in the past, they are a severe destabilizing element in the democratic process. The fact that the military has ousted governments 18 times in the past 60 years and democratically elected governments are unable to operate effectively without fear of a military coup at any time is a serious obstacle to democracy and the cause of much of the countries problems.

The main crucial issue the government would be hamstrung on in a government of national unity would be the constitutional ammendment to unfetter lord T and his servitors. Apart from that there is virtually no policy difference between parties. There is no winner takes all solution. Democracy is not just oh we won a bigger minority in the election than you and so we can do anything. That is Thaksinocracy but not democracy which is a lot more complicated.

There is no better democratic option than a government of national unity which by the way consists of PPP and Dems and so wouldnt rely on any minor party support unless someone decided to include them. Right now the copuntry is regionally divided. Do we want to see ethnic cleansing of minority view points form areas? Maybe that is extreme, but if mionority viewpoints cannot be expressed in areas because of fear then we already have no democracy and that is where we are quickly heading.

As stated earlier, I believe a government of national unity would be acceptable under circumstances where there was a state of anarchy. There is no need to rewrite the rules of democracy right now just because the coallition government is in disagreement over who should be PM and street protests by an illegal mob representing a small minority of the population. I havnt read the constitution in any detail but I would imagine a government of national unity would be outside its bounds? Not sure on that one. With respect, perhaps you could elaborate?

The crisis we now have with PAD illegally occupying government house is one of the armies making. In a mature democracy these illegal protesters would have been moved on by use of all reasonable force and the leaders arrested. However the generals refusal to remove the protesters and the threat that they would intervene if there was violence (meaning if the government sends in police riot squad) allows this farcical stand off to continue.

No mature democracy in the world would tolerate such a situation. Yet in Thailand, because of the ever present threat of a military take over of political power it seems normal to propose a compromise sort of democracy such as a government of national unity and/or an appointed government .

Regardless of how corrupt some politicians might be it is a very dangerous precedent to start bargaining a way out by sacrificing basic principles of democracy.

First its a government of national unity and then its an appointed government overseen by the military.

The only way for Thailand to progress into a modern democracy is to let the courts deal with the crooked politicians and political law breakers, and allow true democracy to run its course without compromise. Buckling under pressure now and inventing some new form of government would set the country back decades and lead to a legalized form of dictatorship where by the wealthy elite rule over the poor majority backed up by force of arms provided by the military.

Thailand is a t a turning point in their political history right now. The courts are coming down on the crooked politicians and appear to be doing their job. Now at this crucial point is not the time to compromise the principles of democracy.

Well put Ando- those advocating a government of national unity are essentially advocating that the current government resign- and thereby playing right into the hands- not just of the PAD- but the historical tendency for governments in THailand to be forced out of power. This would actually serve as one more instance to justify the notion that democracy just can't function in THailand and thus a new political scheme must be devised. It is not the Samak government that is at risk here- it is the future of any hope for a more egalitarian state.

:D

Yes the proper legal functioning of a parlementary system is cause for a loss of all hope.

UNITY MUST BE A BAD THING... if you side isn't on top!

No the proper legal functioning of a parliamentary system is precisely what has to be given the opportunity to develop. And that won't happen as long as governments are not permitted to serve their terms -either because of coups- or because of street pressure- and were it not for street pressure, nobody would even be talking about unity government. Thailand has too long a history of governments caving. Eventually it's the priciples that are at stake- not the specific government- though this government is about as unprincipled as they come- the system it represents- in its ideal form- is the embodiment of great principles. And it's the system that must be allowed to take root- cleaned up= yes- but not trashed.

Another aspect is that Thai governments when elected must recognise that they are governments of all the people not just those that elected them or not just those that bankrolled them. If they dont act that way they will continue to face street protests and other forms of civil disobedience and I include governments led by other parties in this.

[LaoPo]

It appears to me that this is a dead subject since Samak has pullled out of the race.

You're 100% right.

Samak is out and over.

Samak bows out

Former prime minister Samak Sundaravej said he will end his role as leader of People Power Party.

Samak's former secretary general Theerapon Nop-ampa quoted Samak as saying he had done his best as leader of PPP and to protect the country's democracy.

"From now on, everything and every decision will depend on the PPP," said Theerapon.

However he stopped short of saying when he will resign.

-The Nation. Bangkok Post didn't show it yet, although it is on the news in Europe

PAD can go home now and enjoy a well deserved rest during the weekend.

LaoPo