Is There A Law Requring Foreigners To Carry Passport?

[ZZZ]

...It seems to me that the sections you quote have very little to do with the question of carrying your passport at all times.

Right. The race is still on. Just the same, if you look carefully you may find a potential lead in ZZZ’s post. I am hors concours (not taking part in the competition) and therefore will say no more.

--

Maestro

Section 58 in the act specifies that you have to have prof of lawful entry and an ID, i.e passport.

Section 59 says that you can be detained if you don't have this document.

I'm sure these sections can and are used to immediately detain people who do not carry their passport, there seems to be enough history of cases proving this.

Laws are seldom specific, there is no law specifying that it is illegal to shoot someone in the head with a gun, still it's illegal.

But, Maestro's challenge was to find a law specifying that a fine has to be paid if you don't carry a passport at all times and I doubt very much that such a specific law exists. If all laws were that specific we would not need any lawyers

The risk of being locked up is bad enough to at least carry a copy of all relevant passport pages.

[Marvo]

From following it seems you can be looked up if you don't have your passport. It's not specified that you need to have it with you at all times but can be interpreted as they can arrest you on the spot if you don't have it.

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/do...gration_Act.pdf

Section 58 : Any alien who has no lawful document for entering the Kingdom under Section 12 (1); or

has no Residence Certificate under this Act; and also has no identification in accordance with the Law on

Alien registration, is considered to have entered into the Kingdom in violation to this Act.

Section 59 :The Director General, or the competent official deputized by Director General, shall have the

authority to arrest and suppress any person violating this Act. They shall also have the authority to issue

a subpoena, warrant of arrest or search, make arrest , search , or detain. They shall also have the

authority to conduct inquiry into the offense against the provisions of this Act in the same manner as the

inquiry official under the Criminal Procedure Code.

Section 20 : In the instance where the competent official has detained any alien under the provision of

Section 19 , the competent official shall have grounds to detain said alien in so far as it is necessary ,

under the circumstance but not more than forty – eight hours beginning at the time of this ( detainee's )

arrival at the office of the competent official. In case of necessary , the period of forty – eight house may

be extended , but not to exceed seven days , and the competent official shall record the reason foe such

extension.

If it necessary to detain any alien longer than the period of time provided in the first paragraph ,

the competent official shall apply to the Court for an order to further detain said alien and Court may order

further detention , if found necessary , not exceeding twelve days at each application. However , if the

Court deems it appropriate , the Court may order that said alien be temporary.

Section 58 states that if you have no Residence Certificate or lawful document for entering the Kingdom = Visa and entry stamp stamped in Passport

then you may be detained, arrested, subpoena-ed... It does not state the provision in law for any financial penalties that are to be applied for not being able to produce a passport on demand.

Also, I think people are confusing showing "ID" with being able "to demonstrate one's entitlement to be in the Kingdom". A passport and it's contents are the only way to demonstrate the holder's entitlement to be in the Kingdom. The law, by inference, puts the onus on the individual to demonstrate his/her entitlement to be in the Kingdom (as Maesto says, "guilty until proven innocent). The law gives the powers-that-be the authority to detain the individual until they are able to demonstrate their entitlement, i.e. show their passport. Penalty for non-conforming, ultimately - deportation. The decision, as to whether to carry the passport or not, is all up to the level of inconvenience the individual is wiling to put up with if asked to demonstrate their entitlement to be in the Kingdom.

But where it says that the passport MUST be carried AT ALL TIMES?... I haven't a clue so no 500 baht for me. I've got a sneaky suspicion that Maestro knows already full well that the clause doesn't exist . He wouldn't throw 500 baht around like that, he's playing with us .

I would like to know where it says in law that Thai Nationals must carry "ID" at all times and where it may say that carrying ID is a legal requirement applied to "visitors" to the Kingdom of Thailand.

Chock dee.

[bumbui]

Same law for foreigner in thailand as for foreigner in your home country, whats your problem

[Tywais]

Same law for foreigner in thailand as for foreigner in your home country, whats your problem

Can't see the comparison. Many countries I've traveled to it is common practice for the hotel to keep the passport until you check out. Whether that is by law or policy I'm not sure.

[wpcoe]

Same law for foreigner in thailand as for foreigner in your home country, whats your problem

My "problem" is that nobody yet, in the two years I've been following these types of discussions on thaivisa.com (and other online discussion groups) has been able to SHOW such a Thai law. Lots of people, like you, and like me, have ASSUMED there is such a law (or other requirement), but if there is, why is it so bloody difficult to show that law or rule?

There are many many laws in our home countries that we are accustomed to, and assume would apply in every country in the world. After living abroad a few years, one's eyes are opened to the fact that these "common and basic" laws indeed may not be duplicated in every other country. I'm American, and could easily understand if my fellow countrymen were surprised to learn that gender discrimination in employment and other situations is entirely legal in many other countries. Americans, like British citizens as mentioned above, need not carry identification in their home country, but Thai citizens do.

So, back on the main topic: Where is the law that requires us to carry our passports?

[Soutpeel]

Same law for foreigner in thailand as for foreigner in your home country, whats your problem

Can't see the comparison. Many countries I've traveled to it is common practice for the hotel to keep the passport until you check out. Whether that is by law or policy I'm not sure.

Would guess keeping you passport is a way to make sure you dont do a runner and not pay the bill, out interest which countries are we talking about ?, I have travelled pretty entensively and never come across this one, and would guess it might be actually be illegal, as your passport is actually not yours, its your goverments

[PoorSucker]

That's nice that the UK government says there's an unspecified law that we need to carry the passport.

How about a Thai government law or regulation that requires a foreigner to carry their passport at all times?

I hate to be so anal, but I'm specifically looking for the Thai law/regulation/police order/etc.

Ofiicially everybody in Thailand aged 16 and older must be able to give proof of his/her identity.

I suppose that is also valid for foreigners.

Thai have their ID-card after 15, and are obliged to carry it, because they must be able to show proof of his/her identity.

I suppose a driving license can do the same for Thai people.

I suppose foreigners have to be able to giove proof of their identity too.

I have a feeling that this is where your passport if for.

However, I have a Dutch ID-card and a passport, and the ID-card is also accepted.

I do have a feeling that the Thai ID-number plays it's part for the Thai officials.

Foreigners having a Thai driving license also have a Thai ID-number.

The ID of foreigners without a Thai ID-Number can only be checked by passport and TM6.

But why make problems for yourself.

Carry the passport, just to stay out of legal or illegal official trouble

What?

I have two driving licenses with different numbers (car and Bike)

The number are the driving license numbers

The ID no is my passport No.

Edited September 16, 2008 by PoorSucker

[Mario2008]

Well, nobody claimed the reward and I certainly didn't find the answer, let alone in time. But I found an important clue:

http://www.dopa.go.th/English/servi/bp2.htm

Not having an ID -card means a fine, that only makes sense if there is a requirement to carry one at all times. This is for Thais, but seems logic it would also apply to foreigners. maybe the Thai version of the website might provide more clues.

[Lite Beer]

Off Topic posts deleted.

[Martian]

For the first time in 4years i was asked by police to show them my passport,

14 of them walked into a very quite hotel in Ang-Thong ,made a be line for me and my mate ,asked for our passports ,we both said that we didnt have

them on us , and i explained mine was in the car , 2 of the police men then chatted in thai and then asked to pose for a photo with us both,

what was wierd , they asked for a 2nd photo and made my mate shake hands using his left hand , and said its the boy scout way?

colino

It is my understanding that shaking with the left hand is an insult........the left hand is used for cleaning up oneself with the water sprayer in the right hand while using the Hong Nahm. Maybe the Police decided to just insult you rather than take other action because you didn't have the passport.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Martian

[colino]

For the first time in 4years i was asked by police to show them my passport,

14 of them walked into a very quite hotel in Ang-Thong ,made a be line for me and my mate ,asked for our passports ,we both said that we didnt have

them on us , and i explained mine was in the car , 2 of the police men then chatted in thai and then asked to pose for a photo with us both,

what was wierd , they asked for a 2nd photo and made my mate shake hands using his left hand , and said its the boy scout way?

colino

It is my understanding that shaking with the left hand is an insult........the left hand is used for cleaning up oneself with the water sprayer in the right hand while using the Hong Nahm. Maybe the Police decided to just insult you rather than take other action because you didn't have the passport.

Yeah i understand that in many places in the world that is so , but why would the want a photo of them shaking hands

(the boy scout way

colino

[neverdie]

For the first time in 4years i was asked by police to show them my passport,

14 of them walked into a very quite hotel in Ang-Thong ,made a be line for me and my mate ,asked for our passports ,we both said that we didnt have

them on us , and i explained mine was in the car , 2 of the police men then chatted in thai and then asked to pose for a photo with us both,

what was wierd , they asked for a 2nd photo and made my mate shake hands using his left hand , and said its the boy scout way?

colino

It is my understanding that shaking with the left hand is an insult........the left hand is used for cleaning up oneself with the water sprayer in the right hand while using the Hong Nahm. Maybe the Police decided to just insult you rather than take other action because you didn't have the passport.

Now why doesnt that surprise me?

[Mario2008]

There is no such thing as it being an insult to shake hands with the left hand in Thailand. In fact a lot of my students do this, and teachers as well, beause they simply don't know which hand to use when shaking hands. Wai is the norm in Thailand.

[sabaijai]

On every occasion in which Thai police have asked to see my passport, they've been quite happy with presentation of my Thai driver's license instead. So it seems to me the requirement is for ID only, not passport per se.

[Mario2008]

On every occasion in which Thai police have asked to see my passport, they've been quite happy with presentation of my Thai driver's license instead. So it seems to me the requirement is for ID only, not passport per se.

Not sure I agree with that. My Thai wife often doesn't show her ID-card, instead she shows her teachers license. Police will accept that, but it doesn't mean that the law states that another ID is OK. Only that the police will accept it.

[Dave the Dude]

In fact a lot of my students do this, and teachers as well, beause they simply don't know which hand to use when shaking hands.

I used to have the same happen to me, but then I used to explain why the RIGHT HAND is used for shaking hand (in Days of Olde )

Dave

[abdulrahman]

On every occasion in which Thai police have asked to see my passport, they've been quite happy with presentation of my Thai driver's license instead. So it seems to me the requirement is for ID only, not passport per se.

Not sure I agree with that. My Thai wife often doesn't show her ID-card, instead she shows her teachers license. Police will accept that, but it doesn't mean that the law states that another ID is OK. Only that the police will accept it.

Many Countries requires their citizens to carry an ID card,or another official document establishing theyr identity(with a picture attached).This is law in Thailand too,for Thais,and for foreigners alike.Or so I understand.Following,a Thai DL should do,for a foreigner too.The fine for not carrying your PP at all time is IMHO a gray area.

By the way on the DL there IS my Thai ID number,the same one as in my TabienBan.

[PeaceBlondie]

Any official document in Thai, identifying its holder as a teacher, is probably sufficient. Status, you know. My driving licenses both have my photo and my US passport number. I know a foreigner who just flashes his status as a teacher at a high ranking Thai uni.

[T_Dog]

I and several others were asked to present our passports last August while we were waiting for passengers at the Chiang Mai Airport. All of us were quite berated by the immigration official who demanded to see the original passport and not a copy. He stated that it IS the law and we as foreigners are required to carry our passports, and not a copy. (I tried to present a copy and he would not even look at it. He DID take my drivers license for about ten minutes and then returned it, threatening to take me to jail if he caught me without my passport again. (From what I could see, all of us checked were very humble and polite.) No mention of a fine which I think the law does state. So.... Whether you carry your passport or not depends on your experience. I carry mine.

[Maestro]

…Not having an ID -card means a fine, that only makes sense if there is a requirement to carry one at all times…

Not at all.

A ThaiVisa member who prefers to stay in the background and therefore not post on this subject has a brother-in-law with connections to some big brass in the police and he asked him about this. This is the information he obtained, and I have his permission to post it here:

In not one Thai law is there a article, paragraph or note that says that anybody in Thailand must always carry an ID with him or her.

However, there are several mentions of the duty for all people to be able to prove his or her identity.

In general, people registered as living in Thailand, including farangs, must be able to prove their identity in a reasonable short period.

Which means, if you registered to live in Khon Kaen province, and some policeman asks you to prove your ID, then you must be able to do so within one or two hours, max.

People not registered to live in Thailand, however, under international laws and/or bilateral laws must carry their passport.

All quite clear, and as it is in most countries not having the law for carrying your ID, like Holland.

And now it starts.

The immigration police is going to receive a note about the rules for carrying your passport.

This note will also enter the general Royal Thai police and traffic police and Tourist Police.

Mind you, this can take some time.

About all the fines for not carrying your passport at all the time, if any, given to farangs, registered for living in Thailand, not accompanied by an official ticket stating the particulars of the laws under which the ticket was given, those fines are probably booked on traffic offences or something like that, because NO article exists.

If the police stops you, and wants you to hand over your passport which is not with you but at home, tell him/her that your passport is at home, and try to prove your id with a Thai driving license.

Because, like said before, you must be able to prove your ID within a reasonable time.

If you have no ID at all with you, tell the police you can collect it for them and come to the station within a reasonable time.

If that does not work, and the police want to give you a ticket, or want you to pay a fine, just ask which article of the law states that a fine is payable if you do not carry your ID, but can prove your ID within a reasonable time.

If they want you to pay a fine anyway, refuse, and ask for a ticket which states the article of the law.

Of course, this might become a little nasty, but if you keep your cool, remain deferential, things will not heat up to much, and as soon as the agreement is there to let you produce the ID, you are ok.

If some policeman gives a ticket and the fine is paid, please be so kind to refer to me, because my brother in law will try to do something about this, oh yes.

He would like to see the ticket very much!

I guess you understand why.

So there we are. Since there is no proof of a law requiring those registered for living in Thailand to carry our passport at all times the only way to obtain proof of the absence of this requirement is to insist on a ticket for the fine if a police officers wants to fine us for this. If you do get such ticket stating unequivocally that it is for not being able to produce an identity document and quoting the law you have violated, please post it here and if you wish I will arrange for this kind ThaiVisa member to have his brother-in-law sort it out for you.

--

Maestro

[sabaijai]

On every occasion in which Thai police have asked to see my passport, they've been quite happy with presentation of my Thai driver's license instead. So it seems to me the requirement is for ID only, not passport per se.

Not sure I agree with that. My Thai wife often doesn't show her ID-card, instead she shows her teachers license. Police will accept that, but it doesn't mean that the law states that another ID is OK. Only that the police will accept it.

It has not been established what the law says.

[RoadRash]

I know one guy that got fined 2,000 baht for not having his passport on him when he was stopped. Nice bit of tea money!! I always carry a miniturised photo copy of the details page (photo page) and current visa. Go to any photo copy shop, get them to do copies about the size of a credit card, laminate, then hey presto!!! Have shown this when immigration turned up at a guest house on Kho Chang and they seemed happy enough with an explination as to why I carried the copy and not the origional.

[david96]

From the Australian Deptment of Foreign Affairs website re. Thailand Travel Advice.

Foreigners are required to carry identification at all times.

[neverdie]

Any official document in Thai, identifying its holder as a teacher, is probably sufficient. Status, you know. My driving licenses both have my photo and my US passport number. I know a foreigner who just flashes his status as a teacher at a high ranking Thai uni.

That is extreemly funny PB! Did you mean "Status" OR lack there of?

[tropo]

The relevant law is entitled "Sod's Law" - the only time I have ever left my passport behind in a hotel safe was when I went out for breakfast one boxing day morning.

It took two days to find the hotel safe boxes after the tsunami, they had been washed from the reception into the kitchen, get them hauled to the police station and opened with a pick-axe. The cash and passport dried out, though most of the stamps had washed away and the photo page fell apart.

So, now I do carry my passport at all times, but did note that this increases the wear and tear on it. I got some passport-sized waterproof (not just seawater-proof, but perspiration-proof) pouches from Omni-seal and carry it on a lanyard around my neck.

So do you carry it to the beach? Do you wear it when you swim? How about if you're scuba diving or on a jetski?

The tsunami was a very rare catastrophe. I'm sure the cops would make allowances for you not having one if another one hits. They may even overlook a few washed out entry stamps.

[mahjongguy]

My first exposure to this issue was 5 years ago, just after I moved to Thailand. Standing in front of Silom Complex, distracted by I conversation I was having, I dropped a cigarette butt on the sidewalk. Not my usual behavior but I did it thoughtlessly, then said goodbye to my friend and went into the basement entrance to TOPS, across the store and out the back. Just then a beefy BIB caught up with me, huffing and puffing from the exertion. He said he wanted 3,000 baht for the offense. I told him the signs say 50 baht for littering. He said yes, but that's at the police station, and the fine for having no passport was 2,000 baht. I put on my sad face and said I only had 500 baht on me. He said that would be enough. Of course I found out later that 200 baht would have been plenty to send him off, but this was my first encounter with a cop and I was happy to settle it.

In the five years since, several things have become clear.

First, that the 2,000 baht fine was a total fabrication, just a standard part of their intimidation technique.

Second, there is definitely a difference, depending on the type of cop you've encountered (traffic, tourist, immigration, vice, etc.). The situation is not uniform. Haha. To the extent that his interests are genuine, he will always be satisfied by most forms of photo iD, with a Thai drivers license being the best by far. However, most cops in most situations are looking for income and they can always fall back on the lack of an original passport to use as leverage. If that is the case, then it is up to you to feel your way through the situation and decide whether or not to pay what it takes to settle it, or to say "okay, we go to the station", knowing that you can arrange for someone to bring your passport in. My opinion is, though, you might just spend a few hours getting this done and still end up having to contribute some cash, so I don't recommend it.

To me, my passport is worth many thousands of baht and it stays locked up the safe. I carry photocopies of all the needed passport pages but mostly I rely on my drivers license. It's a surprisingly "powerful" ID, and I recommend it to all, even frequent tourists, as it is very easy to obtain. I understand that by not carrying my passport I may possibly have to pay a slightly higher bribe in some cases, but I'm convinced that I won't ever have to have someone bring it to the police station unless I have the extremely unlikely bad fortune to get caught up in something that actually involves an immigration issue. Given the quiet life that I lead, it's a worthwhile gamble.

[tropo]

Of course, this might become a little nasty, but if you keep your cool, remain deferential, things will not heat up to much, and as soon as the agreement is there to let you produce the ID, you are ok.

If some policeman gives a ticket and the fine is paid, please be so kind to refer to me, because my brother in law will try to do something about this, oh yes.

He would like to see the ticket very much!

I guess you understand why.

I don't believe this is good advice at all. I wouldn't try it.

Questioning a police officer or some other authority will most likely turn very nasty even if you are in the right and especially if you don't know any Thai and they don't understand much English. It will just come across as being arrogant and enrage them. They aren't lawyers and wouldn't understand what you are saying anyway.

I reckon this is more likely to lead to an arrest than not saying anything at all. Being quiet and humble is the best way to go IMO.

Even back at home (Australia) questioning a cop's authority by laying down the law can turn out very nasty. I've tried it and it doesn't work well even when we both speak the same language and are fellow citizens.

[Ricardo]

I know one guy that got fined 2,000 baht for not having his passport on him when he was stopped. Nice bit of tea money!! I always carry a miniturised photo copy of the details page (photo page) and current visa. Go to any photo copy shop, get them to do copies about the size of a credit card, laminate, then hey presto!!! Have shown this when immigration turned up at a guest house on Kho Chang and they seemed happy enough with an explination as to why I carried the copy and not the origional.

On the bus from Mae-Sai to Chiang-Rai recently, my own copy-passport/visa wasn't good enough for the ID-checkpoint just outside Mae-Sai, I surmise that they might have thought the visa-copy could have been off someone-else's passport ? So I had to get my passport out of my bag, in the hold of the bus, for their benefit. Mai Pen Rai !

[tropo]

So I had to get my passport out of my bag, in the hold of the bus, for their benefit. Mai Pen Rai !

You actually left your passport in your bag in the baggage hold on the outside of the bus? Wouldn't it have been much safer to carry it?

[Mario2008]

Thanks Maestro and unknown member in the background. Good and helpful information. But it raises the question which foreigners are considered registered. One who does his 90 days reports or one who is registered in a household book?

Those not registere are required to carry an ID at all times.

One note on Holland. Since a few years Holland has a law requiring to carry your ID with you at all times. Before that, for about 5 years, there was a law requiring you to be able to show an ID in certain circumstances, this circumstances so broad that it was advisable to always carry your passport. Before that there was indeed no obligation to carry an ID.