Suvarnabhumi PAD Protest Continues

[Steve2UK]

There are still buses and trains to working international airports.

Phuket, Chaingmai, Samui, Penang and Kuala Lumpur all about a day away.

Viet Nam and Cambodia, even Mayanmar also have out flights too.

Some need online visas or consulate visits, but it is not total isolation here.

Certainly not as convenient, but not locked down if you really need in or out.

Never ceases to amaze me the way you guys downplay the impact and re-write the reality......... "not as convenient"?

Unlike some, I'll confine my response to something I actually know about and know to be true. There isn't a ticket to be had for a train or bus from BKK to Chiang Mai any time in the next few days. Evidence? From 2 different Thai friends who were due to fly up this week and have been trying to book seats on anything with wheels. I rather suspect (but won't shoot my mouth off and claim) that it's the same or similar for any of the other bits of nearby geography you list so blithely.

In case you hadn't noticed, things aren't quite what they were.............. Wake up and smell the coffee.

[britmaveric]

Quite imagine only way out of thailand is book a private car!

[hullupullo]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=132398

PAD allows 88 flights out - without passengers

The leaders of the People's Alliance for Democracy have agreed to allow 88 grounded aircraft to fly out of Suvarnabhumi Airport.

The planes were stranded when they flew in as the PAD occupied the international airport last Tuesday night. Only a handful of passengers have been allowed to leave since then.

The agreement came after hours of negotiations between protest leaders and Airports of Thailand, the airport's owner and operator.

The first of the 88 aircraft already left Suvarnabhumi shortly after dark on Sunday evening.

Under the agreement, Thai Airways International and foreignh airlines can fly to airports in other provinces of the country to help evacuate tourists who have been stranded for nearly a week by the protesters.

There is no sign the PAD demonstrators will leave the airport.

[Guest Reimar]

Seems to be that the Planes flying out now! Just listen and see the outbound planes. I'm about 7 nm away by air from Suvarnabhumi and near to the normal flightpath.

[permanent_disorder]

she looks like a credible news source....

aahh, credible news source. the topic here starts with Faux News or propaganda lie.

if you continue to bring news from TOC please point out that this is a propaganda channel.

[Carib]

At least 30,000 had gathered by 9 p.m. (1400 GMT), most wearing the red that is associated with their cause. They carried Thai flags, red flags and red heart signs with Thaksin's picture.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/i...lBrandChannel=0

any other source can confirm that??

I would be highly surprised if this large group of people don't attempt to go to the airport to confront the demonstrators there.

Let's hope they do, so we can put an end to this circus at the airport.

WE ??

What is it to you?? Relax, it is non of your business

[britmaveric]

Asking permission - fk me this is beyond stupid?

[A_Traveller]

Thanks for a very constructive response. You are welcome. To respond I've taken the liberty of editing elements from your post, not to ignore them, but to reply in the general, rather than the specific.

To me this look like the kind of criticism any opposition party would have against the ruling government in a developed democracy. And there is the rub, Thailand is not a developed democracy, by any meaningful standard. It was progressing, however the duly elected Thaksin government was authoritarian in inclination even though the formal institutions of democracy were in place. It could be argued that use of these institutions to serve Thaksin's (not just the government of which he was head) requirements (e.g. AMLO targeting critical journalists) still further undermined the underpinnings of the democracy. As may be expected then, in my view the depth and quality of Thailand’s democracy was greatly diminished under his rule. This led to the elective majority serving authoritarian ends, being hegemonically and coercively structured and, thus did not reflect, nor respect, the inherent free conditions upon which a genuine democracy may be embedded into a developing society.

My main question still remains. What price is it worth to pay to ensure that Thaksin can not come back into power. It would certainly have been worth the price to remove Hitler (who was democratically elected) by any means. Does this apply to Thaksin as well? By any means, is clearly a wide ranging parameter set, however, I do not believe that liberal democracy here would survive Thaksin's return, at least in the short to medium term. In my view as expressed above, during his 2 terms the democratic landscape was eroded, and though there were attempts to rebuild, ironically under the military, little foundational work has been achieved. The problem is, however, that the inability of anyone here to rule, at least given present performance, suggests that Thailand is en route to losing much that it has gained.

This, again is not about the man, but about the substance of the TRT/PPP governance style. In essence, saying to the voters every 4 years 'make your mark" and then leave us alone to do as we please. No you do not have the right of inquiry, no you do not have the right of review. We know best. Without a legal, political and social framework to bring the executive to account, both at the national, and the local level, voting does not equate democracy.

Regards

[rainman]

What is it to you?? Relax, it is non of your business

To the people living off their pension here surely it is none of their business. To others, who have businesses here, many of them doing international transactions with import and export, it is very much their business.

[A_Traveller]

Asking permission - fk me this is beyond stupid?

"better to jaw-jaw than to war-war"

Regards

[sriracha john]

she looks like a credible news source....

aahh, credible news source. the topic here starts with Faux News or propaganda lie.

if you continue to bring news from TOC please point out that this is a propaganda channel.

The OP of this topic was not myself. Perhaps you should PM the mod that started it.

[animatic]

8. The Sale of Shin Corporation

Appears to be the issue that tipped the scale resulting in the military coup. I do not fully understand what upset people the most. Was it the 49% sale of a Thai company to foreigners? Or was it because the sale was tax-free (what does the law say about this)?

[This is a major topic all of its own, however, SCorp had been on the block for years,

but a prerequisite was that the purchaser had to buy the stock through the exchange,

thereby obviating, legally, the tax burden (but only on that step of the transaction, hence the whole Ample Rich issue).

The change in the legal framework, which permitted the sale had been put in place by the TRT administration,

and by and large was viewed as a precursor to a sale.]

This change was done and the company sold the VERY next day....

In other words obvious policy corruption to benefit the PM.

He ordered TRT he controled in the legislature to change and existing stricter law,

to benefit HIS sale of HIS company. And did it while avoiding paying taxes.

And part of this NOT paying taxes was because he was hiding the share ownership

with his children and his wife's relatives and brother in law and the maid, secretary, the driver .

and various off shore entities (Ample Rich et al), involving the children also.

The unraveling of this Gordian knot, caused MUCH dirt to come too light,

children dragged through court found guilty, fined and back taxes paid,

Off shore accounts and how money changed hands to obscure control,

And some of this also exposed the transactions Pojamin was convicted of.

Is it any wonder they decided to freeze the majority of his assets to see

what is legally made and what is from policy corruption.

[jdinasia]

Seems to be that the Planes flying out now! Just listen and see the outbound planes. I'm about 7 nm away by air from Suvarnabhumi and near to the normal flightpath.

I can see the landing route .. not the take-off route ... so nothing this way

[geriatrickid]

Prince Frederick and Princess Mary. Oh to be rich ... hundreds of Australians are still stuck at Bangkok airport, but leaving Thailand was no problem for Princess Mary who simply stepped onto a corporate jet and flew home. / Reuters

Getting out of Thailand? No problem

PRINCESS Mary and Prince Frederik have flown out of Thailand on a small corporate jet from a military airport as thousands of others remain stranded.

In fairness, it should be pointed out that the jet had already been paid for as part of the trade delegation agreement. If one is going to mention this jet then one should mention the shuttles being organized by some companies to bring in cargo and take out personnel. As well, why not mention the aircraft that are bringing in diplomatic pouches? Airspace is still open and its business as usual for those with access to private fleets. US, UK, AUS, Russia and many other governments have aircraft coming in and out.

If one wants to howl over this then howl over the private sector doing the same thing. The people using these aircraft didn't make the choice to go to Thailand for a vacation, but were there for government or business reasons and their respective employers are doing the responsible thing by arranging transit out. I too have benefited from such transport and would never would have agreed to fly into some areas unless my employer had ensured a lifeline out.

[animatic]

There are still buses and trains to working international airports.

Phuket, Chaingmai, Samui, Penang and Kuala Lumpur all about a day away.

Viet Nam and Cambodia, even Mayanmar also have out flights too.

Some need online visas or consulate visits, but it is not total isolation here.

Certainly not as convenient, but not locked down if you really need in or out.

Never ceases to amaze me the way you guys downplay the impact and re-write the reality......... "not as convenient"?

Unlike some, I'll confine my response to something I actually know about and know to be true. There isn't a ticket to be had for a train or bus from BKK to Chiang Mai any time in the next few days. Evidence? From 2 different Thai friends who were due to fly up this week and have been trying to book seats on anything with wheels. I rather suspect (but won't shoot my mouth off and claim) that it's the same or similar for any of the other bits of nearby geography you list so blithely.

In case you hadn't noticed, things aren't quite what they were.............. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Yeah right,

make a constructive suggestion an get flamed.

Good on you mate.

Plenty of other places than Chaingmai.

[Guest Reimar]

she looks like a credible news source....

aahh, credible news source. the topic here starts with Faux News or propaganda lie.

if you continue to bring news from TOC please point out that this is a propaganda channel.

Unfortunate that was from some Australian News and not PAD or ASTV!

I suggest that you better cross check before writing such answers/post's Mr. permanent_disorder.

And your flaming comments are not welcome too!

[jdinasia]

she looks like a credible news source....

aahh, credible news source. the topic here starts with Faux News or propaganda lie.

if you continue to bring news from TOC please point out that this is a propaganda channel.

The OP of this topic was not myself. Perhaps you should PM the mod that started it.

the one you are responding to went the same way as several others for me ... into ignore

[LaoPo]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=132398

PAD allows 88 flights out - without passengers

..PAD allows.....PAD allows.....how disgusting

The occupation of the airports is an illegal act -and forbidden by law-, destroying the economy, causing immense problems for so many tourists and business people who were/are bringing so much money INTO the country...and the PAD allows 88 flight out ?

What a shame.

LaoPo

[britmaveric]

Fox news has said very little about this, so I'm not sure what the previous point was. They have been on about the India mess nonstop.

[Colonel_Mustard]

she looks like a credible news source....

aahh, credible news source. the topic here starts with Faux News or propaganda lie.

if you continue to bring news from TOC please point out that this is a propaganda channel.

The OP of this topic was not myself. Perhaps you should PM the mod that started it.

the one you are responding to went the same way as several others for me ... into ignore

Thanks for sharing.

[jdinasia]

There are still buses and trains to working international airports.

Phuket, Chaingmai, Samui, Penang and Kuala Lumpur all about a day away.

Viet Nam and Cambodia, even Mayanmar also have out flights too.

Some need online visas or consulate visits, but it is not total isolation here.

Certainly not as convenient, but not locked down if you really need in or out.

Never ceases to amaze me the way you guys downplay the impact and re-write the reality......... "not as convenient"?

Unlike some, I'll confine my response to something I actually know about and know to be true. There isn't a ticket to be had for a train or bus from BKK to Chiang Mai any time in the next few days. Evidence? From 2 different Thai friends who were due to fly up this week and have been trying to book seats on anything with wheels. I rather suspect (but won't shoot my mouth off and claim) that it's the same or similar for any of the other bits of nearby geography you list so blithely.

In case you hadn't noticed, things aren't quite what they were.............. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Yeah right,

make a constructive suggestion an get flamed.

Good on you mate.

Plenty of other places than Chaingmai.

I had two friends go to Mor Chit today and get a ticket for TODAY to CNX.

[jdinasia]

Thanks for sharing.

You are welcome ... after 10 attempts to explain that the man killed on Sept 2nd was attacking the entrenched group at Gov't house I had to give up!

[yadetout]

The situation is slowly escalating, and the core problem is a class conflict.

As is always the case with Thai culture, what you see on the surface is not necessarily the reality. Behind the gentle wais, or traditional Thai greeting, and friendly smiles has always lurked deep-rooted social contradictions. A dynamic, burgeoning urban middle class looks down on a huge, poor rural class which has been awakened by Thaksin Shinawatra's Peronist-style populism.

There is a game going on with the "last stand" of the anti-Thaksin forces holed up in the airport. The People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) - once hugely popular with the rabidly anti-Thaksin urban class - has steadily lost support with its increasingly illegal and thuggish tactics which have badly affected the economy. The PAD wants to force the hand of the players - the military to launch a coup, or the government to resign.

Edited November 30, 2008 by yadetout

[Guest Reimar]

Every regular News sources are allowed. That includes The Nation, Bangkok Post, ASTV, TOC, Thai Rath and so on, news which are registered in Thailand. But sources like Notthenation.com are suspicious.

You also want to be free to articulate what you like, you should give the same rights to others. If you don't like that, you don't have that right as well.

On the other hand it is not understandable for normal thinking humans how some of you classify others! you must not wonder if that normal thinking humans classify you on the same way!

Cheers.

[fudoshinanzan]

PAD have issued threats should pro-government protesters come to Suvarnabhumi and protest the protesters.

Oh dear.

Let's hope it doesn't all kick off. It's clear both sets of fanatics like nothing more than a good scrap. Both have the same two elements within, that of vicious thugs and peaceful, gullible followers.

[animatic]

Thanks for a very constructive response. You are welcome. To respond I've taken the liberty of editing elements from your post, not to ignore them, but to reply in the general, rather than the specific.

To me this look like the kind of criticism any opposition party would have against the ruling government in a developed democracy. And there is the rub, Thailand is not a developed democracy, by any meaningful standard. It was progressing, however the duly elected Thaksin government was authoritarian in inclination even though the formal institutions of democracy were in place. It could be argued that use of these institutions to serve Thaksin's (not just the government of which he was head) requirements (e.g. AMLO targeting critical journalists) still further undermined the underpinnings of the democracy. As may be expected then, in my view the depth and quality of Thailand’s democracy was greatly diminished under his rule. This led to the elective majority serving authoritarian ends, being hegemonically and coercively structured and, thus did not reflect, nor respect, the inherent free conditions upon which a genuine democracy may be embedded into a developing society.

My main question still remains. What price is it worth to pay to ensure that Thaksin can not come back into power. It would certainly have been worth the price to remove Hitler (who was democratically elected) by any means. Does this apply to Thaksin as well? By any means, is clearly a wide ranging parameter set, however, I do not believe that liberal democracy here would survive Thaksin's return, at least in the short to medium term. In my view as expressed above, during his 2 terms the democratic landscape was eroded, and though there were attempts to rebuild, ironically under the military, little foundational work has been achieved. The problem is, however, that the inability of anyone here to rule, at least given present performance, suggests that Thailand is en route to losing much that it has gained.

This, again is not about the man, but about the substance of the TRT/PPP governance style. In essence, saying to the voters every 4 years 'make your mark" and then leave us alone to do as we please.

No you do not have the right of inquiry, no you do not have the right of review. We know best.

Without a legal, political and social framework to bring the executive to account,

both at the national, and the local level, voting does not equate democracy.

Regards

Very good post.

I add that the TRT / PPP governance style was a tone clearly set by Thaksin himself

and as his power grew he got more and more authoritarian,

and listened to fewer and fewer, even with in his own circle of phsycophantic yes men.

When a main cabinet TRT player bailed on him, he commented to the press approximately:

'It makes no difference if he leaves,

I am the only one doing any work in the government anyway.'

[Nampeung]

Reimar is great, I think he understands Very Very Well

[fudoshinanzan]

Understandably given its outsider perspective the international media is more damning about the PAD actions, but really nobody can come out of this with any credit.

The government has shown itself to be weak, the PAD's actions have embarrassingly contradicted their words and earned condemnation, while government supporters have continued to show a propensity for violence. Meanwhile the army and police are in the mix, all part of a multi-faceted chess game that is dragging Thailand down into the gutter of international public opinion.

[scratt]

What is it to you?? Relax, it is non of your business

To the people living off their pension here surely it is none of their business. To others, who have businesses here, many of them doing international transactions with import and export, it is very much their business.

I thought you were just a professional troll. You mean you actually have a business here?

Because I do too.. One that involves both tourism and shipping. Both operating just fine. We simply work with what is available, and allow the country which is gracious enough to have us as guests deal with things in its own way..

Reading through your posts over the last few days you actually say nothing. Your comments are more akin to a rather large wooden spoon trying to stir a pot... If I were you I would put just 50% of the effort you put into typing your toxic comments into working thorough these temporary issues and you might be surprised what you can achieve.

[A_Traveller]

Quentin Sommerville is in Bangkok's Suvarnabhumi BBC video report

Regards