Employment Discrimination Hits New Low Today

[chiangmaibruce]

Well we have seen ads in Thailand that ask for particular age, marital status, gender, weight, height etc

You can understand ads that stipulate Thai national only (for work permit reasons) or those that specify the need for particular language skills ... but check out the front page of the BKK Post employment classifieds section today.

Some BKK-based group who call themselves "Asia Resource Development & Consulting" and who state that they represent a European NGO are seeking a couple of staff. At the bottom of the list of necessary requirements are that applicants must be of "Asian nationality".

Presumably non-Asians are incapable of doing whatever it is that needs to be done .... the mind boggles as to what that could be. And as Asia is not a country, presumably what they meant to say don't bother applying unless you are of the Asian race. Who are these people?

[longtom]

Now that is really the most outrageous I've heard of in LOS for years, how dare they! Let's file a class action suit and sue these b@$ards for billions, that will teach them!

[jesimps]

Reminds me of when I was in India and the back pages of the Sunday papers were always full of wanted ads for brides. Ads usually finished with "Must have wheatish complexion", which meant skin must be light coloured. To be fair though, that was a local predujice.

I wonder how long you could escape prosecution in Europe stating that a job applicant must be European or non-Asian. I'm insulted, but not surprised, political correctness always was a one way street.

[jdinasia]

Why are you insulted?

it's just a thing, if you want all the little protections etc in the west ... live in the west!

[Jingthing]

Its not helpful to be insulted, and I doubt it is a NEW low (that would be hard to pull off) but I do think it is legit for us to point out and object to this kind of discrimination. Thai nationals only is perfectly understandable, age parameters often offensive but understandable sometimes, but generic Asian nationality, how can this be anything but blatant racism? We are not supposed to notice this or call it what it is because we love Thailand so much. Give me a break!

Edited December 22, 2008 by Jingthing

[jdinasia]

Its not helpful to be insulted, and I doubt it is a NEW low (that would be hard to pull off) but I do think it is legit for us to point out and object to this kind of discrimination. Thai nationals only is perfectly understandable, age parameters often offensive but understandable sometimes, but generic Asian nationality, how can this be anything but blatant racism? We are not supposed to notice this or call it what it is because we love Thailand so much. Give me a break!

Native English speakers ... White preferred (assumed) etc.

I am neither insulted nor surprised .. I don't care that a company has a race preference as it may serve their purposes. I don't think that the folks investing in a privately owned company should be told who to hire after all.

[Jingthing]

If they say white preferred, that is racial. If they say native English speakers, that is merit based only.

Yes, Thailand is a different culture, but who said we have to abandon our core principles about what is right and wrong?

Edited December 22, 2008 by Jingthing

[jdinasia]

If they say white preferred, that is racial. If they say native English speakers, that is merit based only.

Yes, Thailand is a different culture, but who said we have to abandon our core principles about what is right and wrong?

Why is it wrong for an employer to state (honestly and openly) who they are looking to hire?

For all we know that position was for a tour agency dealing strictly with asian nationals. (We could also assume that if you held a Korean passport that you could apply

[Jingthing]

If they say white preferred, that is racial. If they say native English speakers, that is merit based only.

Yes, Thailand is a different culture, but who said we have to abandon our core principles about what is right and wrong?

Why is it wrong for an employer to state (honestly and openly) who they are looking to hire?

For all we know that position was for a tour agency dealing strictly with asian nationals. (We could also assume that if you held a Korean passport that you could apply

That is ridiculous! Asian nationals? What is that? Sure if they needed a Korean speaking tour guide, fluent in Korean would do, yes? But Asian?? Come on, you are either trying too hard or you have been here too long. I am not saying it is our "our place" to try to change what is acceptable to Thais in Thailand. I am saying we don't have to abandon our core values to live here.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Jingthing

[cclub75]

I don't care that a company has a race preference as it may serve their purposes. I don't think that the folks investing in a privately owned company should be told who to hire after all.

At last ! Some common sense.

Enough of the global hypocrisy.

It's like for renting an appartement or a house.

What should be the "criterias" ? Could we make a scientific list of those criterias ? Can the process be totally objective ?

Bullshit.

Eventually, the owner will choose with his "feelings" (plus a set of objective factors, like income etc.) Can we blame him for that ?

To say to someone :

-your monthly income is not sufficient

-your disposable income doesn't reach the minimum level set by the directive XS451 enacted by IRS, sorry

-or you were not graduated from Harward, I want to rent only to people who went to Harward business school

-or you don't play tennis, sorry I want to rent only to tennis players

-or your not asian (or black, white, green, thai, german whatever), I just don't want to rent to you

... I mean what is the practical difference ?

The first reasons are supposed to be "politically correct". The last one is supposed to be wrong. Great. We feel much better. We have really moved forward.

As for the ""Asian nationality" of the ad... it's funny that no one thought about a very simple explanation : mistake.

It could be just a wording mistake made by the "author" of this ad, who doesn't have a clue.

Edited December 22, 2008 by cclub75

[jdinasia]

If they say white preferred, that is racial. If they say native English speakers, that is merit based only.

Yes, Thailand is a different culture, but who said we have to abandon our core principles about what is right and wrong?

Why is it wrong for an employer to state (honestly and openly) who they are looking to hire?

For all we know that position was for a tour agency dealing strictly with asian nationals. (We could also assume that if you held a Korean passport that you could apply

That is ridiculous! Asian nationals? What is that? Sure if they needed a Korean speaking tour guide, fluent in Korean would do, yes? But Asian?? Come on, you are either trying too hard or you have been here too long. I am not saying it is our "our place" to try to change what is acceptable to Thais in Thailand. I am saying we don't have to abandon our core values to live here.

Why is it ridiculous? Because you don't like it?

The owners/investors of a company want an asian face on it .. so what?

[Jingthing]

I thought we were talking about employment discrimination, not housing discrimination. Standards often vary based on the SIZE of the organization doing the hiring or housing. For example, a lady hiring a maid or renting a small flat would come under less public scrutiny than a large apartment block or corporation. I agree political correctness can get out of hand. But it goes both ways. A lot of people are offended when you call racism racism and saying Asian nationalities only is racism, and if that is politically incorrect to say it, sign me up.

The owners/investors of a company want an asian face on it .. so what?

They can clearly be legally racist in Thailand. Can I legally say they are racist, is that acceptable to you? Good, thank you.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Jingthing

[misterman21]

Reminds me of the Aussie farmer whom advertised his farm for sale:

His add painted on a sign outside his house read - 'Farm for sale - no Asains need apply'

Within a short time the local press and TV stations had reporters clamouring to interview him. "Do you realize this is racist and against the law' - 'what have you against asians' etc. etc. _ _ _ _

'Asiants I don't like them -dirty cheating barstewards' 'I am not paying 5% to any robbing asiants'

"Sorry Sir said one reporter what do you mean = pay asians 5%?' 'I have never used them and won't start now - who needs estate asiants - robbing sods!!!!!!!!!!!!'

[jdinasia]

Jing

You can assume they are racist all you want. I for one do not have all the info. Perhaps they are, perhaps they are not. They could be almost exclusively white in the upper echelons of that company and are looking to break THAT image. I don't know ... do you?

Can you legally call them racist? Again I do not know. Feel free to write to them and use all your real information and call them that and if they take action against you and lose THEN you will have the information asked in that question

[Jingthing]

JD, I am sure there are instances where race specs in employment ads are NOT racist. For example, someone casting a for a movie about Africans would want people who appear African for the acting roles.

In regards to what is going on in Thailand, of course, it is different than what we are used to in most of the west. As guests, we are wise to accept the reality of the situation and take the good with the bad in stride here. But we don't have any obligation to promote or rationalize things that go against our core values, and make constant excuses for Thais and what they do, in cases when it is clearly not very enlightened. Let Thai people make their OWN excuses, that is, those that are interested in critical discussions about Thai social issues. We live in an internet age. Sooner or later, these kinds of social issues and ethical problems are going to come to the top surface of Thai consciousness. Not now, but they will for certain.

For example, and someone correct me if I am wrong, I have heard that cinemas here commonly advertise for LIGHT SKINNED people to act as ticketing clerks. Is this always a code phrase for Chinese-Thais? Maybe not. But in any case, I accept they are doing this, but not in a million years will I consider this an ethical/moral business practice. Why shouldn't a darker skin toned person have the same opportunity? It may not seem like the best job in the world, but for many young people, it is a step up.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Jingthing

[Pakboong]

Well we have seen ads in Thailand that ask for particular age, marital status, gender, weight, height etc

You can understand ads that stipulate Thai national only (for work permit reasons) or those that specify the need for particular language skills ... but check out the front page of the BKK Post employment classifieds section today.

Some BKK-based group who call themselves "Asia Resource Development & Consulting" and who state that they represent a European NGO are seeking a couple of staff. At the bottom of the list of necessary requirements are that applicants must be of "Asian nationality".

Presumably non-Asians are incapable of doing whatever it is that needs to be done .... the mind boggles as to what that could be. And as Asia is not a country, presumably what they meant to say don't bother applying unless you are of the Asian race. Who are these people?

In the US this stuff has been around since the beginning. The President has to be at least 35 and he/she has to be native born.

[bendix]

I like the honesty of these ads. At least it stops people wasting time with job applications that will go nowhere because, let's face it, they would be weeded out in the selection or interview process.

If I could get away with it, I'd add a 'no fat bastards' stipulation. In fact, I might give it a go.

[chiangmaibruce]

Interesting to read the responses thus far. We all have our 'line in the sand' as to what we consider acceptable, and mine (despite the fact that I don't consider myself part of the PC-crowd) is clearly in a different place to that of a number of other TV members. To me this ad clearly does step over the line.

I don't think that the folks investing in a privately owned company should be told who to hire after all.

I don't think they should be told who to hire either. And anyway that approach (positive discrimination or whatever label you give it) is at the far end of anti-discrimination laws.

In reality, even with the basic EEO laws in place people can still hire who they want with impunity but at least there is a clear message by the 'powers that be' as to what is considere fair and reasonable. When people can get away with what these guys did (in the BKK Post) just sends a message that race-based recruiting is a perfectly acceptable way to run your business. Personally I think their office clocked stopped about 50 years ago and they need some new batteries.

I guess we all have our own reasons for feeling the way we do. I learnt a lesson about hiring very early in my career. I was given responsibility for a project that required recruiting a team of four people. I had plenty of good applicants. I very nearly rejected one applicant because he was:

* significantly older than me

* more highly educated than me (Ph D), and

* of a different cultural background (Iranian)

I rationalised at the time that he may not "blend in" to the team, might be difficult to manage, bored by the work required, etc ... all lame excuses in hindsight. Anyway I talked to my supervisor who basically said "up to you, but maybe you could give him a go"). I did and he was (even now decades later) the best person I have ever had reporting to me ... by a large margin .... very dedicated, competent, reliable, and so on. And a great person too.

So snigger if you will, but it was certainly a wake up call for me about what is and what isn't important in finding people to join your team.

[The Philosopher]

Well we have seen ads in Thailand that ask for particular age, marital status, gender, weight, height etc

You can understand ads that stipulate Thai national only (for work permit reasons) or those that specify the need for particular language skills ... but check out the front page of the BKK Post employment classifieds section today.

Some BKK-based group who call themselves "Asia Resource Development & Consulting" and who state that they represent a European NGO are seeking a couple of staff. At the bottom of the list of necessary requirements are that applicants must be of "Asian nationality".

Presumably non-Asians are incapable of doing whatever it is that needs to be done .... the mind boggles as to what that could be. And as Asia is not a country, presumably what they meant to say don't bother applying unless you are of the Asian race. Who are these people?

mayby its because they don.t want their staff sloping off early everyday to the beer gardens or coming in to work in the morning smelling of beer

[Jingthing]

If I could get away with it, I'd add a 'no fat bastards' stipulation. In fact, I might give it a go.

I think you can "get away with it" as you put it, but I expect you lack the cajones to actually do that.

So let me get this straight, people here are agreed that hiring light skinned only is perfectly fine and dandy? Yes, PC is out of hand, no doubt, but maybe you have gone too far in other direction. To bendix praising honesty to save people the bother, if there were laws and big firms consistently did this, eventually they could be busted. By that, a racist part of this culture could change. But if you think racism is fine, I guess it doesn't matter.

Edited December 23, 2008 by Jingthing

[jesimps]

Why are you insulted?

it's just a thing, if you want all the little protections etc in the west ... live in the west!

Hey soft lad, don't tell me where I should or shouldn't live. I've lived in Thailand for a number of years, with my Thai lass, and love the place. Doesn't mean that there aren't things here that annoy me; double pricing for instance. I have an opinion on that ad and I voiced it; where I live doesn't matter; I often have a go at the UK. Ok smarta.se?

[simon43]

I assume they specify Asians-only because they don't want to pay a high 'whitey' salary...

Simon

[Scott]

There is a lot of racism here, but as long as it's legal, there isn't much that can be done about it. At work, I find it confusing. We have different pay scales for Filipinos, Indians, Other Asians--and I can't keep them straight (them meaning the wage scale)!

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

You simply can't expect Thailand to impose your Western notions of equal treatment overnight. After all, take a look at the U.S. Constitution. For almost 100 years, African-Americans were 3/5 of a white person. They had no right to vote until the 1860's. Women didn't have a right to vote until 1917. The equal rights and treatment that you know didn't come into existence until 1965. Even then, actual enforcement of those rights didn't really occur until the last 25 years. And you expect a developing country to completely revolutionize its legal code overnight?

Personally, as someone who conducts job interviews, I like knowing the marital status, age and religion of my applicants. Job interviews in the U.S. were boring. Here, I can ask someone if they hate Bush. I can engage in sexual banter with women that would get me fired and sued in the U.S. I love Thailand!

[JonnyF]

For some people that come from countries that employ "positive discrimination" I can understand that this might be a little bit annoying.

They apply for certain jobs in their home country and they're less likely to get it due to their race (the quota of non-whites MUST be filled). They move abroad, and they're less likely to get it due to their race (no need to explain this one to any non-Asian who has lived in Asia, especially a "farang" in Thailand).

No bitterness on my part by the way, I've been quite lucky on the job front so far in Thailand and I've never been rejected in the UK for being caucasian. However, I do find it interesting the way some farang accept and in some cases revel in non-white discrimination against whites, and at the same time abhore any form of white discrimination against non-whites. Just an observation, maybe some of the previous posters can explain?

[jdinasia]

Again Jing ----

you are taking the general (Your definition of racism) and applying it to the specific. I am pretty sure you don't do that in your home life so why must an employer (in general --- not THIS employer because we do not know the situation unless you contacted them and asked why)?

It is not my in my core value system to not look for the specific employee I want. I know who I would hire in Asia and I know who I would hire in Texas and I know who I would hire in LA when it comes to dealing with the public. I also know that in an office that didn't deal with the public I would look for different people.

I am not 'making excuses for the Thais' as you so qualintly put it as I do not know that this was a Thai company.

I also stand by the statement that if you WANT the things like not being able to OVERTLY look for a specific employee (the one you are going to hire anyways) that being in Asia isn't the best place for you.

[Jingthing]

I also stand by the statement that if you WANT the things like not being able to OVERTLY look for a specific employee (the one you are going to hire anyways) that being in Asia isn't the best place for you

I will ignore your smarky advice, Sir. I will live wherever I bloody well want (as long as I can keep getting extensions). I am not interested in changing the way Thais do business in Thailand but it suits me just fine to call a spade a spade. I noticed you ignored my question about hiring light skinned ticketing clerks, how convenient. I don't blame you for not wanting to go official that you think that is just a really great thing.

BTW: why do you persist in suggesting people leave the country? Do you think expats have to love EVERYTHING about their host country to be happy living there? I think that is ridiculous. I can't imagine loving EVERYTHING about any country.

Edited December 23, 2008 by Jingthing

[jdinasia]

Geeze Jing ---- how many edits?

You often make the mistake of applying the general to the specific. You have labeled a compny as racist with no knowledge of why they are looking for someone of "asian nationality." There (again) could be many reasons that are not racist that someone would be looking for an asian to fill a poszition.

You have also applied the general to the specific in the case of not being able to deal with what you see as employment discrimation. I honestly believe that if you are not happy where you are then you should be somewhere that you ARE happy.

As for hiring "light-skinned" people as a position requirement, I am not opposed to it at all. (BTW, you are making a critical error in assuming all light skinned Thais are Th/Ch) If a company thinks that fills their needs then I am OK with that. If you are not feel free to try and create dialogue with said company and do something about it.

[Jingthing]

As for hiring "light-skinned" people as a position requirement, I am not opposed to it at all.

Thank you for clearing up your position. It truly speaks for itself.

Did I ever say I am interested in actively confronting companies in Thailand about racist employment policies? That would be nuts. Its not my business, this is not my country. However, I can and do have opinions, and also still choose to live here, if that is OK with Mr. Love it All or Leave it.

Thank you for you concern about my happiness. Its odd and unwelcome coming from a stranger like you. Again, you foolishly presume that Thai employment discrimination policies have any impact on my personal happiness in the slightest. If there was a country better suited to me (including my home country) that also would grant me a visa, you wouldn't be seeing me on thaivisa anyway.

Why do people care if people edit their posts? People point this out as if something nefarious is going on! Editing is a bigger part of writing than writing itself. Any writer knows that. Believe me, if you think my edited versions are poor, you really do not want to read the first drafts.

BTW, from my point of view, this little discussion is played out, but carry on of course as you please.

Edited December 23, 2008 by Jingthing

[BeauKarl]

However, I do find it interesting the way some farang accept and in some cases revel in non-white discrimination against whites, and at the same time abhore any form of white discrimination against non-whites. Just an observation, maybe some of the previous posters can explain?

Very simple, political correctness has gone that far that it's become a one way street

If some firm in the west would make an ad 'caucasians only', the world would be to small to even start running.