Hi, was looking for a newbees lounge to say hello in, but there doesn't seem to be one...

So Hello! I've living in BKK for a few years running a business back home and am currently studying for a BA in Psychology by distance learning. I hope we can get into some good discussions as one of the facets of live I find most interesting is the causes for differences in different cultures, and the reasons for different ways of thinking around the world. Just for the record I don't view ANY cultural way of thinking as correct or incorrect.

For those who have lived within Thai society (all classes) it is obvious that the average Thai is just about unable to produce logic, efficiency, forethought or consider the consequences of their (or others) actions, and to the large part, show signs of any form of awareness (of self or others). I wonder how much of this is a product of their environment (being raised in Thai society and culture), or if there are any other reasons for it.

Of course being Western raised these thought processes appear to come naturally, but could also be a product of being raised in a forward thinking and progressive society which not only recognises the importance of, but rewards such processes.

To the Western raised (or to me at least) it does appear that the ‘Thai’ way of thinking halts progression and I don’t wish to label one process as ‘correct’ and one as ‘incorrect’ as it would simply be Eurocentric based, not to mention it is always best to view both ways with an open mind.

But the causes for our two different ways of thinking is an interesting topic, and one which I have yet to figure out.

Nature (we simply are) or Nurture (we are what our society and culture produces).

My opinion, for what it is worth, would be that being raised in a society where one is disciplined to blindly and silently follow the Phu Yai without question or thought, and where producing logical and efficient actions is seen as negative and could result in loss of face, so must not be acted upon must surely rub off on the young who are cocooned in the ‘be quiet and follow blindly’ society. But then you see fellow nations that adhere to a similar culture, Japan for example - I have only been in Japan for half a day so can hardly comment on it, but I do believe that their culture strongly promotes the importance of ‘face’ and seniority, and it hardly seems like some backward progressionless nation, while the Japanese that I have met appeared to be able to produce logical thought, act efficiently, process forethought and consider the consequences of their actions and act accordingly. So it appears there is more to it… But What?

What is it that halts the average Thai from producing logical ideas, acting efficiently, using forethought to better the future, or consider the consequences of their actions? Is it simply due to cultural upbringing? Can a culture really have that much affect on the mind (en masse)?

What do ye think?

What is it that halts the average Thai from producing logical ideas, acting efficiently, using forethought to better the future, or consider the consequences of their actions? Is it simply due to cultural upbringing? Can a culture really have that much affect on the mind (en masse)?

What do ye think?

It's the crap education system that no pollie has the balls to change.

Thais aren't stupid, just badly educated.(by rote)

The pollies send their children to the West for a good education.

Hi, was looking for a newbees lounge to say hello in, but there doesn't seem to be one...

So Hello! I've living in BKK for a few years running a business back home and am currently studying for a BA in Psychology by distance learning. I hope we can get into some good discussions as one of the facets of live I find most interesting is the causes for differences in different cultures, and the reasons for different ways of thinking around the world. Just for the record I don't view ANY cultural way of thinking as correct or incorrect.

For those who have lived within Thai society (all classes) it is obvious that the average Thai is just about unable to produce logic, efficiency, forethought or consider the consequences of their (or others) actions, and to the large part, show signs of any form of awareness (of self or others). I wonder how much of this is a product of their environment (being raised in Thai society and culture), or if there are any other reasons for it.

Of course being Western raised these thought processes appear to come naturally, but could also be a product of being raised in a forward thinking and progressive society which not only recognises the importance of, but rewards such processes.

To the Western raised (or to me at least) it does appear that the ‘Thai’ way of thinking halts progression and I don’t wish to label one process as ‘correct’ and one as ‘incorrect’ as it would simply be Eurocentric based, not to mention it is always best to view both ways with an open mind.

But the causes for our two different ways of thinking is an interesting topic, and one which I have yet to figure out.

Nature (we simply are) or Nurture (we are what our society and culture produces).

My opinion, for what it is worth, would be that being raised in a society where one is disciplined to blindly and silently follow the Phu Yai without question or thought, and where producing logical and efficient actions is seen as negative and could result in loss of face, so must not be acted upon must surely rub off on the young who are cocooned in the ‘be quiet and follow blindly’ society. But then you see fellow nations that adhere to a similar culture, Japan for example - I have only been in Japan for half a day so can hardly comment on it, but I do believe that their culture strongly promotes the importance of ‘face’ and seniority, and it hardly seems like some backward progressionless nation, while the Japanese that I have met appeared to be able to produce logical thought, act efficiently, process forethought and consider the consequences of their actions and act accordingly. So it appears there is more to it… But What?

What is it that halts the average Thai from producing logical ideas, acting efficiently, using forethought to better the future, or consider the consequences of their actions? Is it simply due to cultural upbringing? Can a culture really have that much affect on the mind (en masse)?

What do ye think?

feudalism

Hi, was looking for a newbees lounge to say hello in, but there doesn't seem to be one...

So Hello! I've living in BKK for a few years running a business back home and am currently studying for a BA in Psychology by distance learning. I hope we can get into some good discussions as one of the facets of live I find most interesting is the causes for differences in different cultures, and the reasons for different ways of thinking around the world. Just for the record I don't view ANY cultural way of thinking as correct or incorrect.

For those who have lived within Thai society (all classes) it is obvious that the average Thai is just about unable to produce logic, efficiency, forethought or consider the consequences of their (or others) actions, and to the large part, show signs of any form of awareness (of self or others). I wonder how much of this is a product of their environment (being raised in Thai society and culture), or if there are any other reasons for it.

Of course being Western raised these thought processes appear to come naturally, but could also be a product of being raised in a forward thinking and progressive society which not only recognises the importance of, but rewards such processes.

To the Western raised (or to me at least) it does appear that the 'Thai' way of thinking halts progression and I don't wish to label one process as 'correct' and one as 'incorrect' as it would simply be Eurocentric based, not to mention it is always best to view both ways with an open mind.

But the causes for our two different ways of thinking is an interesting topic, and one which I have yet to figure out.

Nature (we simply are) or Nurture (we are what our society and culture produces).

My opinion, for what it is worth, would be that being raised in a society where one is disciplined to blindly and silently follow the Phu Yai without question or thought, and where producing logical and efficient actions is seen as negative and could result in loss of face, so must not be acted upon must surely rub off on the young who are cocooned in the 'be quiet and follow blindly' society. But then you see fellow nations that adhere to a similar culture, Japan for example - I have only been in Japan for half a day so can hardly comment on it, but I do believe that their culture strongly promotes the importance of 'face' and seniority, and it hardly seems like some backward progressionless nation, while the Japanese that I have met appeared to be able to produce logical thought, act efficiently, process forethought and consider the consequences of their actions and act accordingly. So it appears there is more to it… But What?

What is it that halts the average Thai from producing logical ideas, acting efficiently, using forethought to better the future, or consider the consequences of their actions? Is it simply due to cultural upbringing? Can a culture really have that much affect on the mind (en masse)?

What do ye think?

I spent a fair amount of time some 20 years ago researching the question of Nature vs Nurture. I decided that it was Nature AND Nurture that made a complete person. YMMV.

You asked, "What is it that halts the average Thai..)" Who is the 'average Thai?' And what makes you think that the 'average' Thai does *not* produce logical thoughts?

What makes you think that the 'average' Thai does *not* act efficiently? I can't comment on question/statement about using forethought to better the future (y'mean like Enron, sub-prime mortgages that go bust, etc. As far as considering 'the conseqences of their actions...y'mean like Enron, sub-prime mortgages that go bust, etc.... I don't see a whole lot of difference world-wide, and see no reason to single out the Thais. Those whom I know (from Doctors and Lawyers to disabled kids in the remote villages...well, I can tell you that *they* produce logical thoughts, *they* act efficiently, and have a spiritual- as well as material-side to the consequences of their actions. Please understand that I'm just trying to get a point across, and the point is *not* to denigrate you or the Thai people.

Read the book, The Geography of Thought. I think you will find it fascinating.

There are several factors which affect the way people think and behave in Thailand:

1. Weather--like a lot of warm tropical countries, time is viewed differently. They have much less need to 'prepare' for winter and can likely survive relatively well if they don't think much beyond today. You see this same thing in a lot of tropical countries.

2. The cultural/religious factor, which stresses a 'middle' path--which precludes excellence. It also stresses suffering and acceptance over conquest. It is also a part of # 3.

3. Patronage system--This means certain people are in a certain place in the society (and family). You listen to those above you--this precludes thinking about consequences, because the patron will be the responsible for any consequences. He in turn will just blame others.

Education and the education are not the problem. They are simply a product of the culture. Unless the culture itself changes, there is little value in changing the education system.

As for the remarks about Enron etc..you might want to look at what happens when some of the Thai companies close--workers aren't informed, they show up to locked factory gates and owners who have disappeared. Greed is part of human nature--not Western or Eastern nature, but both.

Welcome to Thai Visa. Ah, to be young and innocent and naive again.....having commuted with near-geniuses who worked at Enron, let's just say Thais are not that stupid.

Culture is a coping/survival mechanism. The education system reinforces that culture. See it in the context of how free and open the society is allowed to be by the rulers, and what opportunity and rewards there are for independent thought, effort, ideas and responsibility. Eastern societies have generally not enjoyed much along those lines, the Japanese are an exception in that regard to a great degree. Japan has a history of appreciating the search for perfection.

This is partly the reason why there is such a struggle in the democratizing process in the East. The culture in general is aimed at a very controlled, feudal system. It'll take generations to change, understandably.

The differences are to a large extent, IMHO, consequences of a patron-client society structure.

Of course Thai think different and have an different logic than westerners. But the differences between Europeans and Americans are even so very great, the same as between an New Yorker and an somebody from the bible belt. IMHO the logic between males and females are much more different than between Thai and Europeans.

In short the Asian( Far east) is based on Confucianism and Buddhism, while the European culture is based on the Christian/Jewish tradition and after the enlightening by Humanism, who was at first established by Jews escaped from the inquisition in Spain.

The biggest difference is that the European culture is based on the principle of guilt, while in other cultures this is unknown. For instance the Islamic culture is build on shame.

And also I, am sometimes staggered by the decision makings, logic and action of Thai, but I guarantee you they feel the same with us.

Trying to understand Thai or Asian logic is completely useless, we can't comprehend it, even so they can't comprehend our logic. Just accept the differences and adopt yourself to it, otherwise you will be in a constant state of bewildering.

As for the remarks about Enron etc..you might want to look at what happens when some of the Thai companies close--workers aren't informed, they show up to locked factory gates and owners who have disappeared. Greed is part of human nature--not Western or Eastern nature, but both.

This is happening in Europe and the US also

My theory has always been, the people and cultures that live in the tropics always had it pretty easy as fish were found in the ocean, fruit was found on the trees, and there was no hard cold period.  Those that lived in more nordic regions had to be more resourceful as they had a shorter period of time each year to collect what was needed to survive the whole year.  YMMV on this theory.

Of course Thai think different and have an different logic than westerners. But the differences between Europeans and Americans are even so very great, the same as between an New Yorker and an somebody from the bible belt. IMHO the logic between males and females are much more different than between Thai and Europeans.

In short the Asian( Far east) is based on Confucianism and Buddhism, while the European culture is based on the Christian/Jewish tradition and after the enlightening by Humanism, who was at first established by Jews escaped from the inquisition in Spain.

The biggest difference is that the European culture is based on the principle of guilt, while in other cultures this is unknown. For instance the Islamic culture is build on shame.

And also I, am sometimes staggered by the decision makings, logic and action of Thai, but I guarantee you they feel the same with us.

Trying to understand Thai or Asian logic is completely useless, we can't comprehend it, even so they can't comprehend our logic. Just accept the differences and adopt yourself to it, otherwise you will be in a constant state of bewildering.

Hate to be padantic, but in the interest of debate, aren't guilt and shame much the same thing?

My theory has always been, the people and cultures that live in the tropics always had it pretty easy as fish were found in the ocean, fruit was found on the trees, and there was no hard cold period. Those that lived in more nordic regions had to be more resourceful as they had a shorter period of time each year to collect what was needed to survive the whole year. YMMV on this theory.

I think you are correct, I read a familar theory recently.

An interesting angle.

In a nutshell; Western logic is practical, whereas Asian logic is of a more socially manipulating nature.

I've living in BKK for a few years running a business back home and am currently studying for a BA in Psychology by distance learning.........

For those who have lived within Thai society (all classes) it is obvious that the average Thai is just about unable to produce logic, efficiency, forethought or consider the consequences of their (or others) actions, and to the large part, show signs of any form of awareness (of self or others). I wonder how much of this is a product of their environment (being raised in Thai society and culture), or if there are any other reasons for it.

Of course being Western raised these thought processes appear to come naturally,....

What do ye think?

Well the first thought, actually the first word that pops into my mind is "hubris". Then I remember that just about everyone I have met over the past several decades who has engaged into a study of "psychology" has done so as an effort to understand their own confused minds. Then I think to myself, why is this person living in Thailand and seemingly living in such a narrow existence that would lead to the preposterous generalizations only a few of which are quoted above. So at the most fundamental level methinks you got shitake mushrooms for brains. Not that I have not met Thais who fit your descriptions, but certainly in no greater number than Westerners.

I think the question is worth asking.

Having employed many Thais, we have had to conclude that there is obviously a difference in the local workers thought process compared with the thought process of western thinkers.

Is this such a difficult subject to tackle?

Of course Thai think different and have an different logic than westerners. But the differences between Europeans and Americans are even so very great, the same as between an New Yorker and an somebody from the bible belt. IMHO the logic between males and females are much more different than between Thai and Europeans.

In short the Asian( Far east) is based on Confucianism and Buddhism, while the European culture is based on the Christian/Jewish tradition and after the enlightening by Humanism, who was at first established by Jews escaped from the inquisition in Spain.

The biggest difference is that the European culture is based on the principle of guilt, while in other cultures this is unknown. For instance the Islamic culture is build on shame.

And also I, am sometimes staggered by the decision makings, logic and action of Thai, but I guarantee you they feel the same with us.

Trying to understand Thai or Asian logic is completely useless, we can't comprehend it, even so they can't comprehend our logic. Just accept the differences and adopt yourself to it, otherwise you will be in a constant state of bewildering.

Hate to be padantic, but in the interest of debate, aren't guilt and shame much the same thing?

Hate to be pedantic also but guilt and shame are not the same at all. Its difficult to explain because I'm not an native English speaker, but I will try.

A guilt culture is where they teach you to always looking to yourself if you are not the reason why somebody is unfair to you. typical for Westerners. Also the guilt that you life is OK and therefore must be responsible for the ones less fortunate than you.

We even get baptised to take the original sin away. When a baby is born and don't get baptist he can't go to heaven because the original sin is not forgiven. So we are born with guilt.

Shame is typical in the Islamic culture. An example of shame are the honorary killings because the woman bring shame to the family. All there actions are based on the fact that they could bring shame to their family, neighbours and so on. they don't feel guilty for their actions, only be afraid it will bring shame on their family.

Also typical of the western guilt culture is that we still apologize for the crusades. the Germans still feel guilt about the genocide during WW2. On the other hand the Japanese had medical experiments performed by unit 57 on Chinese also and had the massacre of Nanking and put about 60 000 Korean women in army brothels. never an apologize about it.

Did you ever heard an apologize from Muslims about terrorists attack. Did you ever get an sign of guilt from a Thai.

maybe some native English speaker who is familiar in anthropology can explain it better than me.

I try to make something more clear.

In Western culture guilt and shame go together, while in other cultures shame and guilt are not connected.

While accepting that neither culture/ persons is/ are better/ worse than the other, I have to wonder about some specific things in Thailand. ie.

the acceptance of shoddy workmanship in the public areas ( the beach walkway is a prime example ).

not bothering to maintain the existing infrastructure.

the idea that in a depressed market it is good business practice to RAISE prices.

the belief that because you work as a "bar girl" you don't have to make any effort ( read between the lines).

The list goes on and on.

I know there are plenty bad things about western countries, but this is about Thailand.

maybe some native English speaker who is familiar in anthropology can explain it better than me.

Thankyou. I think that I am getting the idea. It is about a question of tense and personal application.

Guilt being a personal feeling experienced by one after a shameful event has taken place. Shame being the guilt expereinced by others for ones personal behaviour and reflected on oneself.

Same meat, different gravy, I think.

I do agree. SE Asians do not see guilt/shame the same way that farangs see guilt and shame, owing to farang school systems being based on the bible or koran. Thai school systems, I think are not based on religion, but on nationlistic principles.

My theory has always been, the people and cultures that live in the tropics always had it pretty easy as fish were found in the ocean, fruit was found on the trees, and there was no hard cold period. Those that lived in more nordic regions had to be more resourceful as they had a shorter period of time each year to collect what was needed to survive the whole year. YMMV on this theory.

Therefore they must have been dumber not to move South if in Northern areas etc and therefore the Thais must have been smarter

I know several Thais living here in Germany (mostly women) who have married and adapted very quickly to a vastly different way of life.

The inferred lack of intelligence is, I think, due to their not having to think in their home environment, ergo, "think too much" is not

encouraged there. In other words, dumbing down makes them easier to control en masse.

I don't know of anything we do that a Thai couldn't learn, given the necessary training, challenge and the motivation.

There's a few reasons in my opinion...

A complete lack of Discipline throughout their Lives from day 1 is certainly something that doesn't help, & that's from jumping Red Lights on a regular basis, to short changing their Customers, from having no discipline as a Child ( i don't know a Thai Parent that teaches their Kid either discipline or manners but then that comes down to Culture with regards to the manners )..

Also a complete lack of wanting to better/further themselves ( most of the one's that i come into contact with on Samui ) is a factor..

Education is, or so it seems, appaling too which of course doesn't help..

I don't know of anything we do that a Thai couldn't learn, given the necessary training, challenge and the motivation.

That's obvious and to say otherwise would be racist.

However, the culture is obviously different here.

This exists in micro levels in the west as well. Different ethnic groups in the west have cultural tendencies towards one thing or another. For example, in the US, Germanic Americans are more likely to be pushed into football playing while Japanese Americans more likely to be pushed into studying the sciences. Cultural values obviously have some impact on most everybody.

... it is obvious that the average Thai is just about unable to produce logic, efficiency, forethought or consider the consequences of their (or others) actions, and to the large part, show signs of any form of awareness (of self or others).

So the average Thai is stupid (unlike Westerners). I don't agree to that, so I can't comment on the rest.

"What is it that halts the average Thai from producing logical ideas, acting efficiently, using forethought to better the future, or consider the consequences of their actions? Is it simply due to cultural upbringing? Can a culture really have that much affect on the mind (en masse)?"

There is a difference for sure. It's lack of intelligence reinforced by lack of education as far as Thailand goes, but we must be wary of comparing like for like, that's often a mistake that is made on these boards, ie, we shouldn't compare the abilities of a 45 year old well educated, trained male farang , with that of a village girl who works in the leisure industry.

Strikes me that opportunity/motivation has often been a factor in me getting up and doing something. Consider the average Thai's plight.

Thais learn much more slowly IMHO opinion. I taught in a Thai Uni. The Thai students seemed more like 25/16 year olds too me, but I got the impression they would develop.

Our superior knowledge and abilities doesn't seem to have made us that much wealthier and the Thais are arguably happier.

Although the idea of social conscience is to some extent linked, I believe that this is an area where there are inherent differences. I am at a loss as to explain such a marked difference too. Maybe because Thailand is so abundant in food and it's so difficult to die of cold, people have never felt the need to care too much for others.

Of course Thai think different and have an different logic than westerners. But the differences between Europeans and Americans are even so very great, the same as between an New Yorker and an somebody from the bible belt. IMHO the logic between males and females are much more different than between Thai and Europeans.

In short the Asian( Far east) is based on Confucianism and Buddhism, while the European culture is based on the Christian/Jewish tradition and after the enlightening by Humanism, who was at first established by Jews escaped from the inquisition in Spain.

The biggest difference is that the European culture is based on the principle of guilt, while in other cultures this is unknown. For instance the Islamic culture is build on shame.

And also I, am sometimes staggered by the decision makings, logic and action of Thai, but I guarantee you they feel the same with us.

Trying to understand Thai or Asian logic is completely useless, we can't comprehend it, even so they can't comprehend our logic. Just accept the differences and adopt yourself to it, otherwise you will be in a constant state of bewildering.

Hate to be padantic, but in the interest of debate, aren't guilt and shame much the same thing?

Similar, guilt is the sense of having done something (maybe one thing) wrong. Hence "everything would be alright if I hadn't done that wrong". Shame is more pervasive and is a sense of 'no good. never was, never will be". I'd argue these feelings are common to all cultures.

The biggest mistakes Farangs make is to think that Thai are very polite people, this is simply not so.

their wai's and Krabphom's are meaningless.

A few examples:

The salesman/woman who give you a deep wai drive you out of your socks the moment he steps on his motorcycle ore in his car.

A car/motorcycle never stops for an pedestrian.,I always stop when I see somebody like to cross the street on an zebra crossing(its the law in my country) I always see disbelieve in the eyes of the pedestrian, he don't seems to trust it. But the same times cars and motorcycle pass me at high speed. Never in my life I see such bunch of renegades and barbarians as in Thai traffics. Even I Italy they are ten time more polite, and every European knows that Italians have the worst reputation in Europe concerning traffic behaviour. The worst traffic barbarians in Thailand I saw in Khon Kaeng its was the first time in my live that I was driving my car with fear. Compare with them Bangkok is like a walk in the park.

In Europe its normal to say please when you handover the money to a salesperson, a Thai never do like that. Just ask a Thai when he use the word please, they use this word seldom, sometimes they even have to think long time before they find the translation.

when you go to a shopping mall and the doorman/woman opens the door for a client, an European nots his head ore say thank you, a Thai never do like that

When they go to eat in a restaurant they let the waiter/waitress wait endlessly before they even say hello with him/her, they treat him like a non person.

In my country a civil servant is trained to see the public as their client, and act accordingly.In Thailand an civil servant regard himself as somebody who belong to the king, and regard the public as somebody who have to show respect to him. A civil servant don't wai to the people in front his desk. He don't seems to know that civil servant means SERVANT OF THE PEOPLE not the other way around.

The moment that a Thai feels or think that he is in power or control he don't show any politeness anymore. In my culture we are teach-ed that a garbage man deserve the same respect as a king, I never saw that Thai people show any respect towards someone who they think is in a lower social position, they not even offer him a glass of water.

The so called warm hearted kind polite Thai is a myth because his kindness is only showed to people who are higher on the social scale or like in a salesman/women client relation.

I noticed many time that when I give a few bottles of water to the garbage collectors they are very surprised, Thai don't seems to do like that. i noticed that even very religious Buddhist not even offer a drink to the workers who re-paint their house or maintain their garden.

Those are my observations in Bangkok metropolis and medium sized towns. maybe in rural areas its different.

Hi, was looking for a newbees lounge to say hello in, but there doesn't seem to be one...

So Hello! I've living in BKK for a few years running a business back home and am currently studying for a BA in Psychology by distance learning. I hope we can get into some good discussions as one of the facets of live I find most interesting is the causes for differences in different cultures, and the reasons for different ways of thinking around the world. Just for the record I don't view ANY cultural way of thinking as correct or incorrect.

For those who have lived within Thai society (all classes) it is obvious that the average Thai is just about unable to produce logic, efficiency, forethought or consider the consequences of their (or others) actions, and to the large part, show signs of any form of awareness (of self or others). I wonder how much of this is a product of their environment (being raised in Thai society and culture), or if there are any other reasons for it.

Of course being Western raised these thought processes appear to come naturally, but could also be a product of being raised in a forward thinking and progressive society which not only recognises the importance of, but rewards such processes.

To the Western raised (or to me at least) it does appear that the ‘Thai’ way of thinking halts progression and I don’t wish to label one process as ‘correct’ and one as ‘incorrect’ as it would simply be Eurocentric based, not to mention it is always best to view both ways with an open mind.

But the causes for our two different ways of thinking is an interesting topic, and one which I have yet to figure out.

Nature (we simply are) or Nurture (we are what our society and culture produces).

My opinion, for what it is worth, would be that being raised in a society where one is disciplined to blindly and silently follow the Phu Yai without question or thought, and where producing logical and efficient actions is seen as negative and could result in loss of face, so must not be acted upon must surely rub off on the young who are cocooned in the ‘be quiet and follow blindly’ society. But then you see fellow nations that adhere to a similar culture, Japan for example - I have only been in Japan for half a day so can hardly comment on it, but I do believe that their culture strongly promotes the importance of ‘face’ and seniority, and it hardly seems like some backward progressionless nation, while the Japanese that I have met appeared to be able to produce logical thought, act efficiently, process forethought and consider the consequences of their actions and act accordingly. So it appears there is more to it… But What?

What is it that halts the average Thai from producing logical ideas, acting efficiently, using forethought to better the future, or consider the consequences of their actions? Is it simply due to cultural upbringing? Can a culture really have that much affect on the mind (en masse)?

What do ye think?

.....For those who have lived within Thai society (all classes) it is obvious that the average Thai is just about unable to produce logic, efficiency, forethought or consider the consequences of their (or others) actions, and to the large part, show signs of any form of awareness (of self or others). I wonder how much of this is a product of their environment (being raised in Thai society and culture), or if there are any other reasons for it......

Coming from someone who has lived in Thailand for a few years and who holds a BA in Psychology I am astounded to hear you make this statement. Thai's concepts of right/wrong, honesty/dishonesty, integirty/ lack of intergity ... and all the aspects that make up personality/character and interaction with those around them are NO DIFFERENT to Westerners. These are universal concepts and principals that individuals all over the world subscribe to , irrespective of cultural background and soical status - and you, of all subscribers to this forum, with your professional training/education should be aware of.

Yes - there are differances between Westerners and Thai's in how we respectively respond to situations, and in how we express ourselves, but these are cultural in type - not in concept or principal. "Loss of face" is indeed an example of just one of many such cultural differances between Thai's and Westerners (well, its actually an Asian thing, not exclsuively Thai, and I see you note that point).

"Seniority" is linked to ones age, and ones standing/achievement - but these too are universal concepts, not exclusively Thai. Would I be wrong to say that it is only over the last couple generations or so that youngsters have lost the respect that youngsters used to show their elders (?) At least that was how I was brought up - and it had nothing to do with the time I spent in Thailand during my childhood - which was a good portion of my childhood. These are (were?) values that I think stood society well, and if anything there continuation in Thailand only reflects Thailand as been more soically conservative, which it is on some points, but on others it is not. In fact I think it could be fairly argued that Thai society is in some respects somewhat hypocritical.

I am staggered to hear you comment like this. I do not subscribe to this idea about Thai's. My opinion is that such attitudes and prejudices usualy arise from an inability to communicate effectively with them - learn to speak Thai, read and write the language so that you can engage with them on much the same level as you can with English speakers and I do not believe you will continue to feel this way.

Thai's are humans like you and I, and other than for religous belief and cultural attitudes, their concepts of discipline, responsibility, honesty, integrity .. and all the other values we associate with society are perceived and understood by them just as we understand them.

As for comments about intelligence (i.e. Thai's been lower than Westerners) - the evidence is just the opposite: tests have been undertaken on just this point by social scientists in many different contexts and with as many different parameters as one can think of, not only in respect of Thai's but also other ethnic/cultural groups, and the evidence shows that like for like in their respective socio-economic-age groups, intelligence levels amongst Thai's are NO different to other ethnic/cultural groups.

As for comments about politeness. Henryalleman - what you have expressed is your experiance in dealing with Thai's I assure you it is not the norm.

What I will say about Thai's is that in my personal experiance in dealing with them, I have found them to be no less judgemental and prejudicial about Westerners, than Westerners are about them. And the cause for the mis-conceptions Thai's have of Westerners are as common amongst Thais as they are amongst Westerners: - inability to communicate meaningfully.

an - what you have expressed is yourAs for comments about politeness. Henryallem experiance in dealing with Thai's I assure you it is not the norm.

What I will say about Thai's is that in my personal experiance in dealing with them, I have found them to be no less judgemental and prejudicial about Westerners, than Westerners are about them. And the cause for the mis-conceptions Thai's have of Westerners are as common amongst Thais as they are amongst Westerners: - inability to communicate meaningfully.

Those where observations on how Thai interact with Thai. Maybe you should observe the interactions amongst Thai a litle bit more.

For myself I experienced only politeness in my dealings with Thai.

Maybe its because Thai's make the mistake that I'm on a higger level in the food chain, maybe also because I always dress polite and am alway's respectfull and confirm myself to the social rules.