Reasons For The Difference In Thought Processes.

[a2396]

Hi, was looking for a newbees lounge to say hello in, but there doesn't seem to be one...

So Hello! I've living in BKK for a few years running a business back home and am currently studying for a BA in Psychology by distance learning. I hope we can get into some good discussions as one of the facets of live I find most interesting is the causes for differences in different cultures, and the reasons for different ways of thinking around the world. Just for the record I don't view ANY cultural way of thinking as correct or incorrect.

For those who have lived within Thai society (all classes) it is obvious that the average Thai is just about unable to produce logic, efficiency, forethought or consider the consequences of their (or others) actions, and to the large part, show signs of any form of awareness (of self or others). I wonder how much of this is a product of their environment (being raised in Thai society and culture), or if there are any other reasons for it.

Of course being Western raised these thought processes appear to come naturally, but could also be a product of being raised in a forward thinking and progressive society which not only recognises the importance of, but rewards such processes.

To the Western raised (or to me at least) it does appear that the ‘Thai’ way of thinking halts progression and I don’t wish to label one process as ‘correct’ and one as ‘incorrect’ as it would simply be Eurocentric based, not to mention it is always best to view both ways with an open mind.

But the causes for our two different ways of thinking is an interesting topic, and one which I have yet to figure out.

Nature (we simply are) or Nurture (we are what our society and culture produces).

My opinion, for what it is worth, would be that being raised in a society where one is disciplined to blindly and silently follow the Phu Yai without question or thought, and where producing logical and efficient actions is seen as negative and could result in loss of face, so must not be acted upon must surely rub off on the young who are cocooned in the ‘be quiet and follow blindly’ society. But then you see fellow nations that adhere to a similar culture, Japan for example - I have only been in Japan for half a day so can hardly comment on it, but I do believe that their culture strongly promotes the importance of ‘face’ and seniority, and it hardly seems like some backward progressionless nation, while the Japanese that I have met appeared to be able to produce logical thought, act efficiently, process forethought and consider the consequences of their actions and act accordingly. So it appears there is more to it… But What?

What is it that halts the average Thai from producing logical ideas, acting efficiently, using forethought to better the future, or consider the consequences of their actions? Is it simply due to cultural upbringing? Can a culture really have that much affect on the mind (en masse)?

What do ye think?

.....For those who have lived within Thai society (all classes) it is obvious that the average Thai is just about unable to produce logic, efficiency, forethought or consider the consequences of their (or others) actions, and to the large part, show signs of any form of awareness (of self or others). I wonder how much of this is a product of their environment (being raised in Thai society and culture), or if there are any other reasons for it......

Coming from someone who has lived in Thailand for a few years and who holds a BA in Psychology I am astounded to hear you make this statement. Thai's concepts of right/wrong, honesty/dishonesty, integirty/ lack of intergity ... and all the aspects that make up personality/character and interaction with those around them are NO DIFFERENT to Westerners. These are universal concepts and principals that individuals all over the world subscribe to , irrespective of cultural background and soical status - and you, of all subscribers to this forum, with your professional training/education should be aware of.

Yes - there are differances between Westerners and Thai's in how we respectively respond to situations, and in how we express ourselves, but these are cultural in type - not in concept or principal. "Loss of face" is indeed an example of just one of many such cultural differances between Thai's and Westerners (well, its actually an Asian thing, not exclsuively Thai, and I see you note that point).

"Seniority" is linked to ones age, and ones standing/achievement - but these too are universal concepts, not exclusively Thai. Would I be wrong to say that it is only over the last couple generations or so that youngsters have lost the respect that youngsters used to show their elders (?) At least that was how I was brought up - and it had nothing to do with the time I spent in Thailand during my childhood - which was a good portion of my childhood. These are (were?) values that I think stood society well, and if anything there continuation in Thailand only reflects Thailand as been more soically conservative, which it is on some points, but on others it is not. In fact I think it could be fairly argued that Thai society is in some respects somewhat hypocritical.

I am staggered to hear you comment like this. I do not subscribe to this idea about Thai's. My opinion is that such attitudes and prejudices usualy arise from an inability to communicate effectively with them - learn to speak Thai, read and write the language so that you can engage with them on much the same level as you can with English speakers and I do not believe you will continue to feel this way.

Thai's are humans like you and I, and other than for religous belief and cultural attitudes, their concepts of discipline, responsibility, honesty, integrity .. and all the other values we associate with society are perceived and understood by them just as we understand them.

As for comments about intelligence (i.e. Thai's been lower than Westerners) - the evidence is just the opposite: tests have been undertaken on just this point by social scientists in many different contexts and with as many different parameters as one can think of, not only in respect of Thai's but also other ethnic/cultural groups, and the evidence shows that like for like in their respective socio-economic-age groups, intelligence levels amongst Thai's are NO different to other ethnic/cultural groups.

As for comments about politeness. Henryalleman - what you have expressed is your experiance in dealing with Thai's I assure you it is not the norm.

What I will say about Thai's is that in my personal experiance in dealing with them, I have found them to be no less judgemental and prejudicial about Westerners, than Westerners are about them. And the cause for the mis-conceptions Thai's have of Westerners are as common amongst Thais as they are amongst Westerners: - inability to communicate meaningfully.

I certainly think there is a major difference between the degree of logic & rationality between avg Thais & avg westerners. The reasons no doubt are many, but there is definate "follow the leader" mentality here, ie parents, monks, the monarchy, teachers, etc. Related to this is a problem with often an ethical vacum with respect to personal relations. In almost all cases wholesale lying is accepted and expected, in the name of face-saving. Most of them are so accomplished at this that they believe the twisted truth themselves. I have never seen such endemic self delusion from people in my own country. I am not a expert on the Thai language, but it would seem to be a much less precise language than Englsih, which just adds to the vagueness of communication and understanding. It often takes a whole sentance or more of Thai to explain what one word of English means.

[Tyke]

You seem to be saying on one hand that you don't want to label a culture as correct or incorrect or be judgemental - then on the other hand come up with all kinds of negative descriptions when it comes to judging Thai society and that of the Japanese, eg. lack of thought,,,,, but very complimentary when it comes to your own, eg. progressive,,,, etc. Before you try to appear neutral and open-minded, think carefully about it first as you seem to be completely biased, which is not a good start when comparing cultures.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Tyke

[MSingh]

The biggest mistakes Farangs make is to think that Thai are very polite people, this is simply not so.

their wai's and Krabphom's are meaningless.

A few examples:

The salesman/woman who give you a deep wai drive you out of your socks the moment he steps on his motorcycle ore in his car.

A car/motorcycle never stops for an pedestrian.,I always stop when I see somebody like to cross the street on an zebra crossing(its the law in my country) I always see disbelieve in the eyes of the pedestrian, he don't seems to trust it. But the same times cars and motorcycle pass me at high speed. Never in my life I see such bunch of renegades and barbarians as in Thai traffics. Even I Italy they are ten time more polite, and every European knows that Italians have the worst reputation in Europe concerning traffic behaviour. The worst traffic barbarians in Thailand I saw in Khon Kaeng its was the first time in my live that I was driving my car with fear. Compare with them Bangkok is like a walk in the park.

In Europe its normal to say please when you handover the money to a salesperson, a Thai never do like that. Just ask a Thai when he use the word please, they use this word seldom, sometimes they even have to think long time before they find the translation.

when you go to a shopping mall and the doorman/woman opens the door for a client, an European nots his head ore say thank you, a Thai never do like that

When they go to eat in a restaurant they let the waiter/waitress wait endlessly before they even say hello with him/her, they treat him like a non person.

In my country a civil servant is trained to see the public as their client, and act accordingly.In Thailand an civil servant regard himself as somebody who belong to the king, and regard the public as somebody who have to show respect to him. A civil servant don't wai to the people in front his desk. He don't seems to know that civil servant means SERVANT OF THE PEOPLE not the other way around.

The moment that a Thai feels or think that he is in power or control he don't show any politeness anymore. In my culture we are teach-ed that a garbage man deserve the same respect as a king, I never saw that Thai people show any respect towards someone who they think is in a lower social position, they not even offer him a glass of water.

The so called warm hearted kind polite Thai is a myth because his kindness is only showed to people who are higher on the social scale or like in a salesman/women client relation.

I noticed many time that when I give a few bottles of water to the garbage collectors they are very surprised, Thai don't seems to do like that. i noticed that even very religious Buddhist not even offer a drink to the workers who re-paint their house or maintain their garden.

Those are my observations in Bangkok metropolis and medium sized towns. maybe in rural areas its different.

Manners & Morals, pretty much non existent in both the Thai Language & Culture...

[chiang mai]

There are several factors which affect the way people think and behave in Thailand:

1. Weather--like a lot of warm tropical countries, time is viewed differently. They have much less need to 'prepare' for winter and can likely survive relatively well if they don't think much beyond today. You see this same thing in a lot of tropical countries.

2. The cultural/religious factor, which stresses a 'middle' path--which precludes excellence. It also stresses suffering and acceptance over conquest. It is also a part of # 3.

3. Patronage system--This means certain people are in a certain place in the society (and family). You listen to those above you--this precludes thinking about consequences, because the patron will be the responsible for any consequences. He in turn will just blame others.

Education and the education are not the problem. They are simply a product of the culture. Unless the culture itself changes, there is little value in changing the education system.

Those reasons make a lot of sense to me.

[Crushdepth]

For those who have lived within Thai society (all classes) it is obvious that the average Thai is just about unable to produce logic, efficiency, forethought or consider the consequences of their (or others) actions, and to the large part, show signs of any form of awareness (of self or others). I wonder how much of this is a product of their environment (being raised in Thai society and culture), or if there are any other reasons for it.

I agree that there are substantial cultural differences, but don't you think the above statements are a little bit patronising?

Of course being Western raised these thought processes appear to come naturally, but could also be a product of being raised in a forward thinking and progressive society which not only recognises the importance of, but rewards such processes.

And arrogant?

[Jingthing]

Unless the culture itself changes, there is little value in changing the education system

And who are we to say their culture should change? It will change, over time, for better or worse, but the change will come from within.

[cmsally]

Surely you would need some kind of study about how language effects thought processes and view of the world.

Difficult to sort out the factors though, as multilingual people are often better educated.

The study always referred to in psychology is the Hopi Indian one , I think it was to do with idea about time (long time since I studied psych. - can't remember exactly).

It could be a case of the language to a certain extent determining actions and thoughts.

[wensiensheng]

Not capable of forethought and consequences of actions? Try getting the better of a Thai Chinese in a business deal and see who comes out the poorer.

[wensiensheng]

For those who have lived within Thai society (all classes) it is obvious that the average Thai is just about unable to produce logic, efficiency, forethought or consider the consequences of their (or others) actions, and to the large part, show signs of any form of awareness (of self or others). I wonder how much of this is a product of their environment (being raised in Thai society and culture), or if there are any other reasons for it.

I agree that there are substantial cultural differences, but don't you think the above statements are a little bit patronising?

Of course being Western raised these thought processes appear to come naturally, but could also be a product of being raised in a forward thinking and progressive society which not only recognises the importance of, but rewards such processes.

And arrogant?

Very

[bina]

how ethnocentriclly western u all are

intelligence? what is that exactly? are u not mixing up intelligence with education?

as for lying, well in the middle east lying is part of the culture also, to save face ...

perceptions of time? well the hopi and navajo indian references were on spot... different concept, different reactions, time as less important than other factors.... its funny how my husband often thinks that we farang (israelis here as the case is) are quite primitive in our way of dealing with things... i call it 'daily life actions'...

and i quote a neuropsychologist who tested my daughter for cognitive problems: ... if she were in an agrian society where intuition and action were more important than performing actions within a certain time frame, then she would not be considered to have any learning disabilities... however, in our society where ambtion, drive, competition, and fast movement forward are the desired qualities in children and adults, then she will have to get help to keep up...

in other words, she is of above normal intelligence with difficutulties in certain areas that make life harder for her in OUR society because OUR society prizes certain traits that she is lacking in... - that doesnt mean lack of intelligence.

as for cultural diversity: i have watched thousands of thai men living in crowded, cramped, run down quarters in bad work conditions, and have found that they find creative ways of dealing with the stress, and problem solving (also drinking, of course i am aware of that aspect) but if u take that in to account, very little violence which doesnt get solved by talking it out, sharing in food, games (sanook), equipment, decision making, (something which as a kibbutznik i find amazing, how they reach decisions together that for us take a year of discussing, argueing, yelling)and emotional support... also financial aspects (small mini businesses popping up, a regular mini issaan in many areas)....

i dont find them less intelligent. they are less educated, and the educated ones (the few) are pretty much like the westerners that only study business ed., they lack the 'renaissance man' aspect. the 'wide perspective/broad outlook' on life-- the same as u that are claiming their lack of intelligence.

s for language: language reflects the society and culture of the people, in its subtley, expressiveness, and world view... boviously the person claiming lack of intelligence among thais, doesnt speak more then rudimentary thai... i dont speak well, but find the linguistic ways of expressing things interesting... and i think it is a subtle but not exact language, yes u need many words to express a feeling, but than, hebrew is the same... that is why often german or english were the preferred languages for scientific thought- not because they are more intelligent people, but because the language reflects what is important in those cultures: preciseness, objectiveness, maybe some coldness.... i think thai is a'hot' language: expressing subtlties in emotion and thought, feeling and action that are difficult fo rus to grasp (note the 'greng jai' arguements, the various distinctions in all the 'jai' 'kit' words...

maize -- why were u growing up in thailand??

ignore spelling, dog sitting on lap and keyboard..

bina

israel

[southerndown]

Hi, was looking for a newbees lounge to say hello in, but there doesn't seem to be one...

So Hello! I've living in BKK for a few years running a business back home and am currently studying for a BA in Psychology by distance learning. I hope we can get into some good discussions as one of the facets of live I find most interesting is the causes for differences in different cultures, and the reasons for different ways of thinking around the world. Just for the record I don't view ANY cultural way of thinking as correct or incorrect.

For those who have lived within Thai society (all classes) it is obvious that the average Thai is just about unable to produce logic, efficiency, forethought or consider the consequences of their (or others) actions, and to the large part, show signs of any form of awareness (of self or others). I wonder how much of this is a product of their environment (being raised in Thai society and culture), or if there are any other reasons for it.

Of course being Western raised these thought processes appear to come naturally, but could also be a product of being raised in a forward thinking and progressive society which not only recognises the importance of, but rewards such processes.

To the Western raised (or to me at least) it does appear that the 'Thai' way of thinking halts progression and I don't wish to label one process as 'correct' and one as 'incorrect' as it would simply be Eurocentric based, not to mention it is always best to view both ways with an open mind.

But the causes for our two different ways of thinking is an interesting topic, and one which I have yet to figure out.

Nature (we simply are) or Nurture (we are what our society and culture produces).

My opinion, for what it is worth, would be that being raised in a society where one is disciplined to blindly and silently follow the Phu Yai without question or thought, and where producing logical and efficient actions is seen as negative and could result in loss of face, so must not be acted upon must surely rub off on the young who are cocooned in the 'be quiet and follow blindly' society. But then you see fellow nations that adhere to a similar culture, Japan for example - I have only been in Japan for half a day so can hardly comment on it, but I do believe that their culture strongly promotes the importance of 'face' and seniority, and it hardly seems like some backward progressionless nation, while the Japanese that I have met appeared to be able to produce logical thought, act efficiently, process forethought and consider the consequences of their actions and act accordingly. So it appears there is more to it… But What?

What is it that halts the average Thai from producing logical ideas, acting efficiently, using forethought to better the future, or consider the consequences of their actions? Is it simply due to cultural upbringing? Can a culture really have that much affect on the mind (en masse)?

What do ye think?

feudalism

yes, i agree and this explains i think to the op why the japanese and the thais are different even though face is important to both societies. he japanese have loss of face as a concept; the thais loss of face and mai bhen rai

a fascinating subject but to get anywhere the op should not make biased comments from a western standpont (eg condemning the thai lack of logic. it is not a lack of logic , it is a different logic)

[southerndown]

My theory has always been, the people and cultures that live in the tropics always had it pretty easy as fish were found in the ocean, fruit was found on the trees, and there was no hard cold period. Those that lived in more nordic regions had to be more resourceful as they had a shorter period of time each year to collect what was needed to survive the whole year. YMMV on this theory.

I think you are correct, I read a familar theory recently.

An interesting angle.

In a nutshell; Western logic is practical, whereas Asian logic is of a more socially manipulating nature.

you mean no conflict, not losing face??

[southerndown]

The biggest mistakes Farangs make is to think that Thai are very polite people, this is simply not so.

their wai's and Krabphom's are meaningless.

A few examples:

The salesman/woman who give you a deep wai drive you out of your socks the moment he steps on his motorcycle ore in his car.

A car/motorcycle never stops for an pedestrian.,I always stop when I see somebody like to cross the street on an zebra crossing(its the law in my country) I always see disbelieve in the eyes of the pedestrian, he don't seems to trust it. But the same times cars and motorcycle pass me at high speed. Never in my life I see such bunch of renegades and barbarians as in Thai traffics. Even I Italy they are ten time more polite, and every European knows that Italians have the worst reputation in Europe concerning traffic behaviour. The worst traffic barbarians in Thailand I saw in Khon Kaeng its was the first time in my live that I was driving my car with fear. Compare with them Bangkok is like a walk in the park.

In Europe its normal to say please when you handover the money to a salesperson, a Thai never do like that. Just ask a Thai when he use the word please, they use this word seldom, sometimes they even have to think long time before they find the translation.

when you go to a shopping mall and the doorman/woman opens the door for a client, an European nots his head ore say thank you, a Thai never do like that

When they go to eat in a restaurant they let the waiter/waitress wait endlessly before they even say hello with him/her, they treat him like a non person.

In my country a civil servant is trained to see the public as their client, and act accordingly.In Thailand an civil servant regard himself as somebody who belong to the king, and regard the public as somebody who have to show respect to him. A civil servant don't wai to the people in front his desk. He don't seems to know that civil servant means SERVANT OF THE PEOPLE not the other way around.

The moment that a Thai feels or think that he is in power or control he don't show any politeness anymore. In my culture we are teach-ed that a garbage man deserve the same respect as a king, I never saw that Thai people show any respect towards someone who they think is in a lower social position, they not even offer him a glass of water.

The so called warm hearted kind polite Thai is a myth because his kindness is only showed to people who are higher on the social scale or like in a salesman/women client relation.

I noticed many time that when I give a few bottles of water to the garbage collectors they are very surprised, Thai don't seems to do like that. i noticed that even very religious Buddhist not even offer a drink to the workers who re-paint their house or maintain their garden.

Those are my observations in Bangkok metropolis and medium sized towns. maybe in rural areas its different.

no it's the same. a feudal structure

[southerndown]

Hi, was looking for a newbees lounge to say hello in, but there doesn't seem to be one...

So Hello! I've living in BKK for a few years running a business back home and am currently studying for a BA in Psychology by distance learning. I hope we can get into some good discussions as one of the facets of live I find most interesting is the causes for differences in different cultures, and the reasons for different ways of thinking around the world. Just for the record I don't view ANY cultural way of thinking as correct or incorrect.

For those who have lived within Thai society (all classes) it is obvious that the average Thai is just about unable to produce logic, efficiency, forethought or consider the consequences of their (or others) actions, and to the large part, show signs of any form of awareness (of self or others). I wonder how much of this is a product of their environment (being raised in Thai society and culture), or if there are any other reasons for it.

Of course being Western raised these thought processes appear to come naturally, but could also be a product of being raised in a forward thinking and progressive society which not only recognises the importance of, but rewards such processes.

To the Western raised (or to me at least) it does appear that the 'Thai' way of thinking halts progression and I don't wish to label one process as 'correct' and one as 'incorrect' as it would simply be Eurocentric based, not to mention it is always best to view both ways with an open mind.

But the causes for our two different ways of thinking is an interesting topic, and one which I have yet to figure out.

Nature (we simply are) or Nurture (we are what our society and culture produces).

My opinion, for what it is worth, would be that being raised in a society where one is disciplined to blindly and silently follow the Phu Yai without question or thought, and where producing logical and efficient actions is seen as negative and could result in loss of face, so must not be acted upon must surely rub off on the young who are cocooned in the 'be quiet and follow blindly' society. But then you see fellow nations that adhere to a similar culture, Japan for example - I have only been in Japan for half a day so can hardly comment on it, but I do believe that their culture strongly promotes the importance of 'face' and seniority, and it hardly seems like some backward progressionless nation, while the Japanese that I have met appeared to be able to produce logical thought, act efficiently, process forethought and consider the consequences of their actions and act accordingly. So it appears there is more to it… But What?

What is it that halts the average Thai from producing logical ideas, acting efficiently, using forethought to better the future, or consider the consequences of their actions? Is it simply due to cultural upbringing? Can a culture really have that much affect on the mind (en masse)?

What do ye think?

.....For those who have lived within Thai society (all classes) it is obvious that the average Thai is just about unable to produce logic, efficiency, forethought or consider the consequences of their (or others) actions, and to the large part, show signs of any form of awareness (of self or others). I wonder how much of this is a product of their environment (being raised in Thai society and culture), or if there are any other reasons for it......

Coming from someone who has lived in Thailand for a few years and who holds a BA in Psychology I am astounded to hear you make this statement. Thai's concepts of right/wrong, honesty/dishonesty, integirty/ lack of intergity ... and all the aspects that make up personality/character and interaction with those around them are NO DIFFERENT to Westerners. These are universal concepts and principals that individuals all over the world subscribe to , irrespective of cultural background and soical status - and you, of all subscribers to this forum, with your professional training/education should be aware of.

Yes - there are differances between Westerners and Thai's in how we respectively respond to situations, and in how we express ourselves, but these are cultural in type - not in concept or principal. "Loss of face" is indeed an example of just one of many such cultural differances between Thai's and Westerners (well, its actually an Asian thing, not exclsuively Thai, and I see you note that point).

"Seniority" is linked to ones age, and ones standing/achievement - but these too are universal concepts, not exclusively Thai. Would I be wrong to say that it is only over the last couple generations or so that youngsters have lost the respect that youngsters used to show their elders (?) At least that was how I was brought up - and it had nothing to do with the time I spent in Thailand during my childhood - which was a good portion of my childhood. These are (were?) values that I think stood society well, and if anything there continuation in Thailand only reflects Thailand as been more soically conservative, which it is on some points, but on others it is not. In fact I think it could be fairly argued that Thai society is in some respects somewhat hypocritical.

I am staggered to hear you comment like this. I do not subscribe to this idea about Thai's. My opinion is that such attitudes and prejudices usualy arise from an inability to communicate effectively with them - learn to speak Thai, read and write the language so that you can engage with them on much the same level as you can with English speakers and I do not believe you will continue to feel this way.

Thai's are humans like you and I, and other than for religous belief and cultural attitudes, their concepts of discipline, responsibility, honesty, integrity .. and all the other values we associate with society are perceived and understood by them just as we understand them.

As for comments about intelligence (i.e. Thai's been lower than Westerners) - the evidence is just the opposite: tests have been undertaken on just this point by social scientists in many different contexts and with as many different parameters as one can think of, not only in respect of Thai's but also other ethnic/cultural groups, and the evidence shows that like for like in their respective socio-economic-age groups, intelligence levels amongst Thai's are NO different to other ethnic/cultural groups.

As for comments about politeness. Henryalleman - what you have expressed is your experiance in dealing with Thai's I assure you it is not the norm.

What I will say about Thai's is that in my personal experiance in dealing with them, I have found them to be no less judgemental and prejudicial about Westerners, than Westerners are about them. And the cause for the mis-conceptions Thai's have of Westerners are as common amongst Thais as they are amongst Westerners: - inability to communicate meaningfully.

i think you need to learn to respect other people's opinions. i don't think you are right. the op had avalid query to which most people have responded politely and constructively. please think before you post. you may or not be the "expert" farang in thailand that you think you are. i am not flaming but please be more constructive and polite . this is an interesting subject and many people have different - and sometimes wellthought out views.

[wolfmanjack]

I do not think that thais are any less intelligent than westerners. I do think that many thais do not use the intelligence they were born with unless they find themselves in a situation where they are forced to think for themselves. I have owned businesses in both the USA and Thailand. I can tell you that there is a huge difference in the time it takes to train the 2 groups to perform simple tasks of a repetitive nature.

[jbowman1993]

... it is obvious that the average Thai is just about unable to produce logic, efficiency, forethought or consider the consequences of their (or others) actions, and to the large part, show signs of any form of awareness (of self or others).

If anyone hasn't read Working with the Thais, by Harry Holmes, it is a great insight into the though processes and cultural influences that direct Thais and their "Norm" behavior in the workplace.

That being said, the blanket statement quoted above reveals much more about the OP than it does about any "supposed well-reasoned" comments on the Thai people.

Edited January 4, 2009 by jbowman1993

[myauq]

As for comments about intelligence (i.e. Thai's been lower than Westerners) - the evidence is just the opposite: tests have been undertaken on just this point by social scientists in many different contexts and with as many different parameters as one can think of, not only in respect of Thai's but also other ethnic/cultural groups, and the evidence shows that like for like in their respective socio-economic-age groups, intelligence levels amongst Thai's are NO different to other ethnic/cultural groups.

could you provide examples of the evidence you claim to be citing - empirical, scientific studies. i know that intelligence comes in many forms, but most studies i'm aware of show that thailand is behind in many important indicators (something the government has itself facknolwedged many times).

yes, thailand is culturally different from the west. but it is also culturally different from many asian countries and cultures. although there is corruption elsewhere in asia, many other countries have citizens who understand broad ethical concepts of right and wrong and how best to treat others fairly. this is one of the worst aspects of thai culture, and a symptom of a poor education. even though the thai government may not be the worst in the region, at least other countires have citizens which tolerate difference of opinion more readily - again, a sign of cultural and social maturity.

[Shotime]

Read the book, The Geography of Thought. I think you will find it fascinating.

Someone may have already said this, but I always thought it had to do with Thailand never having been colonized. No foreign influences. The book sounds interesting.

[jasreeve17]

There are several factors which affect the way people think and behave in Thailand:

1. Weather--like a lot of warm tropical countries, time is viewed differently. They have much less need to 'prepare' for winter and can likely survive relatively well if they don't think much beyond today. You see this same thing in a lot of tropical countries.

2. The cultural/religious factor, which stresses a 'middle' path--which precludes excellence. It also stresses suffering and acceptance over conquest. It is also a part of # 3.

3. Patronage system--This means certain people are in a certain place in the society (and family). You listen to those above you--this precludes thinking about consequences, because the patron will be the responsible for any consequences. He in turn will just blame others.

Education and the education are not the problem. They are simply a product of the culture. Unless the culture itself changes, there is little value in changing the education system.

Those reasons make a lot of sense to me.

Me too.

I'd also add in CMSally's suggestion - language. I consider the Thai language to be a massive hinderance to social development, perhaps the sole largest area contributing to the lack of Thai development across a whole host of areas.

Maizefarmer clearly lives on a different planet to me, his sounds nicer, more ideal, in many ways, but very distant from the planet Earth I live on.

[trianglechoke]

Someone said shame and guilt are the same.

Shame is the feeling one feels when his/her negative actions are exposed to their peers thus creating shame..... the internal feeling attached to wrong actions.

Guilt is something felt even if the action remains unexposed, this occurs before shame. . If the action and it's negative results are exposed to peers then shame follows on a huge scale............. As I have noticed.

Thais don't tend to express much guilt as the action has gone and cannot be reversed

As for the Thais not having much common sense. ...... This old chest nut again huh!!!!

Different cultures produce different social conditioning and different expectations of what is common sense and what is stupidity. As a psychologist I am a little shocked by your lack of empathy and the simple understandings attached to mindfulness. This culture is built largely on religion and is very heavily mixed with 'western' behavior.

My 'bird' recently ( 5 mins ago) made me a tea with a note saying sorry. Because I was reading this and looked up, gave her a wink out of love. She mindfully assumed her chatting on the phone wad the reason for this wink and she had disturbed me. Bonkers by English standards yes. But this way of thinking is in most of the actions they do............ Unless scorned of course, but in everyday life they don't lack anything. They are different to you. You might need to recognise this if you want your degree.

Chock dee

[F1fanatic]

Someone said shame and guilt are the same.

Shame is the feeling one feels when his/her negative actions are exposed to their peers thus creating shame..... the internal feeling attached to wrong actions.

Guilt is something felt even if the action remains unexposed, this occurs before shame. . If the action and it's negative results are exposed to peers then shame follows on a huge scale............. As I have noticed.

Thais don't tend to express much guilt as the action has gone and cannot be reversed

As for the Thais not having much common sense. ...... This old chest nut again huh!!!!

Different cultures produce different social conditioning and different expectations of what is common sense and what is stupidity. As a psychologist I am a little shocked by your lack of empathy and the simple understandings attached to mindfulness. This culture is built largely on religion and is very heavily mixed with 'western' behavior.

My 'bird' recently ( 5 mins ago) made me a tea with a note saying sorry. Because I was reading this and looked up, gave her a wink out of love. She mindfully assumed her chatting on the phone wad the reason for this wink and she had disturbed me. Bonkers by English standards yes. But this way of thinking is in most of the actions they do............ Unless scorned of course, but in everyday life they don't lack anything. They are different to you. You might need to recognise this if you want your degree.

Chock dee

Rubbish! Someone once told me that the Thais were v tolerant but extremely inconsiderate. Experience has shown me that the remark was spot on.

If your 'bird' was concerned that she had disturbed you with her 'phone call whilst you were reading she is desperate not to upset you under any circumstances! I'll let you draw your own conclusions as to why she's so worried about upsetting you in any way!

But it's definitely not normal Thai behaviour!

This is not a criticism as I love the tolerance of Thais.

[Jimjim]

To the OP: For the answer to your questions, go to wikipedia and look up culture, stereotype and bigot. That should answer all your questions and explain your attitude.

[Dakhar]

There are several factors which affect the way people think and behave in Thailand:

1. Weather--like a lot of warm tropical countries, time is viewed differently. They have much less need to 'prepare' for winter and can likely survive relatively well if they don't think much beyond today. You see this same thing in a lot of tropical countries.

2. The cultural/religious factor, which stresses a 'middle' path--which precludes excellence. It also stresses suffering and acceptance over conquest. It is also a part of # 3.

3. Patronage system--This means certain people are in a certain place in the society (and family). You listen to those above you--this precludes thinking about consequences, because the patron will be the responsible for any consequences. He in turn will just blame others.

Education and the education are not the problem. They are simply a product of the culture. Unless the culture itself changes, there is little value in changing the education system.

Those reasons make a lot of sense to me.

Me too.

I'd also add in CMSally's suggestion - language. I consider the Thai language to be a massive hinderance to social development, perhaps the sole largest area contributing to the lack of Thai development across a whole host of areas.

Maizefarmer clearly lives on a different planet to me, his sounds nicer, more ideal, in many ways, but very distant from the planet Earth I live on.

There have been a lot of studies upon the impact of language and intellegence, especially in the area of sign language etc.

The belief or thought was that the deaf were destined to be stupid if they relied upon sign language for communication. End of the story was... that hypothesis was wrong.

Now, I know a good bit about Mandarin Chinese, and from what I can tell, it is a very mundane "cave man" like language just as Thai is....

But I do not think any one would dispute the intellegence of the Chinese or Taiwanese for that matter.

So do not agree that language is the big factor here.

As a person that trains people in Thailand to perform diagnostic procedures.... I can say that for the most part, Thais are not apt in the area of critical thought and logic. (yes I agree with the OP) When I do meet an intellegent Thai, it is very refreshing & it gives me hope.

As someone mentioned before, and I never thought of it, maybe it is true that the weather has a large part in the Thai culture.

Good luck on your quest for knowledge in this area. The irony is, Thai's often like to take on this subject and are critical about the "Western" societies & cultures. (although their research is a joke) I have seen on several occasions research performed by Thai "professionals" regarding Thi/Falang children and the negative consequences of mixed children yada yada yada.

[F1fanatic]

There are several factors which affect the way people think and behave in Thailand:

1. Weather--like a lot of warm tropical countries, time is viewed differently. They have much less need to 'prepare' for winter and can likely survive relatively well if they don't think much beyond today. You see this same thing in a lot of tropical countries.

2. The cultural/religious factor, which stresses a 'middle' path--which precludes excellence. It also stresses suffering and acceptance over conquest. It is also a part of # 3.

3. Patronage system--This means certain people are in a certain place in the society (and family). You listen to those above you--this precludes thinking about consequences, because the patron will be the responsible for any consequences. He in turn will just blame others.

Education and the education are not the problem. They are simply a product of the culture. Unless the culture itself changes, there is little value in changing the education system.

Those reasons make a lot of sense to me.

Me too.

I'd also add in CMSally's suggestion - language. I consider the Thai language to be a massive hinderance to social development, perhaps the sole largest area contributing to the lack of Thai development across a whole host of areas.

Maizefarmer clearly lives on a different planet to me, his sounds nicer, more ideal, in many ways, but very distant from the planet Earth I live on.

There have been a lot of studies upon the impact of language and intellegence, especially in the area of sign language etc.

The belief or thought was that the deaf were destined to be stupid if they relied upon sign language for communication. End of the story was... that hypothesis was wrong.

Now, I know a good bit about Mandarin Chinese, and from what I can tell, it is a very mundane "cave man" like language just as Thai is....

But I do not think any one would dispute the intellegence of the Chinese or Taiwanese for that matter.

So do not agree that language is the big factor here.

As a person that trains people in Thailand to perform diagnostic procedures.... I can say that for the most part, Thais are not apt in the area of critical thought and logic. (yes I agree with the OP) When I do meet an intellegent Thai, it is very refreshing & it gives me hope.

As someone mentioned before, and I never thought of it, maybe it is true that the weather has a large part in the Thai culture.

Good luck on your quest for knowledge in this area. The irony is, Thai's often like to take on this subject and are critical about the "Western" societies & cultures. (although their research is a joke) I have seen on several occasions research performed by Thai "professionals" regarding Thi/Falang children and the negative consequences of mixed children yada yada yada.

It's an interesting point though. Do children from a Thai/farang relationship benefit from their parentage?

[davyboy]

What is it that halts the average Thai from producing logical ideas, acting efficiently, using forethought to better the future, or consider the consequences of their actions? Is it simply due to cultural upbringing? Can a culture really have that much affect on the mind (en masse)?

What do ye think?

It's the crap education system that no pollie has the balls to change.

Thais aren't stupid, just badly educated.(by rote)

The pollies send their children to the West for a good education.

Yes, a few years ago you could blame the education system, but whilst it is still not up to a western level, it is better than it has ever been, but parents are to blame for the low level of education, because they don't care if their children go to school or not!!

[Xangsamhua]

Interesting topic. Here's my take on it, for what it's worth.

In a village-based society relationships are crucial. Maintenance of harmony takes priority. Blame and guilt and taking responsibility are not seen as helpful. When wrong is done forgiveness follows quickly, though resentments can fester and blow up when fuelled by alcohol.

Life in the village is relatively predictable and beyond one's control most of the time. Natural events (e.g. floods, droughts) or actions by powerful people cannot be controlled or opposed. Hence, an interest in subjects over which one has no control is discouraged. Why think or learn about things you can't influence? Life is not fair, but there's nothing you can do about it, so be patient and forbearing - learn to cope with suffering. Compensation may be sought in the form of temple festivals, weddings, Songkran and other occasions. These can be noisy and go on for a long time, but who's being disturbed? Nobody's doing anything much, after all. People aren't reading books.

Fewer people are living in villages now (about 70% in 2000), but the expectations and mores of village life still impact on Thai ways of thinking and doing. The above portrayal may be becoming increasingly a dated stereotype, but I believe it still has some validity and may help explain why, in general, Thais seem to be good at some things (e.g. organizing a celebration or ritual, building up and maintaining reciprocal support networks) and not so good at others (e.g. maintaining efficient communication, setting and meeting realistic deadlines). My view is that Thais are no more or less "intelligent" than anyone else, and no more or less "logical". They just have different priorities and work better when they're motivated. Their priorities and motivating forces may just be different from those of other cultures.

[Jingthing]

My view is that Thais are no more or less "intelligent" than anyone else, and no more or less "logical". They just have different priorities and work better when they're motivated. Their priorities and motivating forces may just be different from those of other cultures.

An interesting perspective. I'm not smart enough to know the truth about all this. However, assuming what you say is true, such a culture pretty much has no chance to compete well in the the global market unless it changes, and changes fast, and changes radically. There are clearly forces here that want that change and forces here that don't. Diagnosis: CONFLICT.

[Dakhar]

There are several factors which affect the way people think and behave in Thailand:

1. Weather--like a lot of warm tropical countries, time is viewed differently. They have much less need to 'prepare' for winter and can likely survive relatively well if they don't think much beyond today. You see this same thing in a lot of tropical countries.

2. The cultural/religious factor, which stresses a 'middle' path--which precludes excellence. It also stresses suffering and acceptance over conquest. It is also a part of # 3.

3. Patronage system--This means certain people are in a certain place in the society (and family). You listen to those above you--this precludes thinking about consequences, because the patron will be the responsible for any consequences. He in turn will just blame others.

Education and the education are not the problem. They are simply a product of the culture. Unless the culture itself changes, there is little value in changing the education system.

Those reasons make a lot of sense to me.

Me too.

I'd also add in CMSally's suggestion - language. I consider the Thai language to be a massive hinderance to social development, perhaps the sole largest area contributing to the lack of Thai development across a whole host of areas.

Maizefarmer clearly lives on a different planet to me, his sounds nicer, more ideal, in many ways, but very distant from the planet Earth I live on.

There have been a lot of studies upon the impact of language and intellegence, especially in the area of sign language etc.

The belief or thought was that the deaf were destined to be stupid if they relied upon sign language for communication. End of the story was... that hypothesis was wrong.

Now, I know a good bit about Mandarin Chinese, and from what I can tell, it is a very mundane "cave man" like language just as Thai is....

But I do not think any one would dispute the intellegence of the Chinese or Taiwanese for that matter.

So do not agree that language is the big factor here.

As a person that trains people in Thailand to perform diagnostic procedures.... I can say that for the most part, Thais are not apt in the area of critical thought and logic. (yes I agree with the OP) When I do meet an intellegent Thai, it is very refreshing & it gives me hope.

As someone mentioned before, and I never thought of it, maybe it is true that the weather has a large part in the Thai culture.

Good luck on your quest for knowledge in this area. The irony is, Thai's often like to take on this subject and are critical about the "Western" societies & cultures. (although their research is a joke) I have seen on several occasions research performed by Thai "professionals" regarding Thi/Falang children and the negative consequences of mixed children yada yada yada.

It's an interesting point though. Do children from a Thai/farang relationship benefit from their parentage?

The smartest Thai (kind of) I have met thus far is half. His mother is Thai, educated in France, and his father was a wealthy falang. The child of this relationship was educated at an international school, but he never even went beyond the 9th grade, but yet he can thing, use deductive reasoning, has ambition etc etc.

And on a side note, but relevant to this discussion.

A boy across the street had his birthday today. So the parents organized a party. My wife said, "I hope they end the party early, because tomorrow is a school day." My reply was.... "They will party all night."

True to my prediction, the rice farmer mentality holds out, & the loud music is still going. (10:00 PM)

My wife got her MA out of the US, so she excersises her brain a bit more than most.

[mahtin]

The worst traffic barbarians in Thailand I saw in Khon Kaeng its was the first time in my live that I was driving my car with fear.

Evidently you don't drive a pickup.

When in Rome...

[thaibeachlovers]

Hmmm, I have given this subject much thought since my first contribution, and I do not think that it is possible to say that Thais brains work differently from any other human beings. However, is possible to say that a lack of expectation generally, and a belief in a fatalistic religion have combined to produce the effect that we are so frustrated with.

It is true that there are ignorant Thais, just as there are ignorant people in every country, just as there are good, evil, indifferent, cunning, dedicated people.

In the end, IMO, it all comes down to programming.