Similans Tourists See Boat People Mistreated

[Gary A]

Have you ever heard of Al Qaeda? A friend of mine who lives near there has been told the majority of those people were Al Qaeda and if not for too many witnesses, they would have all been shot.

Don't attack the messenger, I don't know.

[Scott]

I don't think anyone is trying to insinuate that Thailand should 'take' the Rohingyas. Countries routinely provide sanctuary for groups of people that they have no intention of allowing to remain long term. There are human concerns that override some of the more pragmatic concerns. The first thing, is these people need to be screened to see if they are true refugees. If so, they need to be provided with some protection from Thailand and the international community.

The UNHCR and other international organizations can put pressure on Burma to allow a reasonably safe return.

Lasting solutions are needed, not a quick fix endangering thousands and continuing to prop up a very brutal regime.

[Steve2UK]

Have you ever heard of Al Qaeda? A friend of mine who lives near there has been told the majority of those people were Al Qaeda and if not for too many witnesses, they would have all been shot.

Don't attack the messenger, I don't know.

If "you" is meant to be me - yes, I have heard of Al Qaeda.......... as has (I assume) everyone else on this forum. No, I try to avoid attacking messengers. But - a "friend... has been told"? That's it?

Let's wait and see.

Edit: A further thought occurs to me........ CNN, Al Jazeera (yes - even them...... they do report on Al Qaeda), the dogged Phuket Wan and others have been all over this story for a while now. If there were even a sniff or a murmur of an Al Qaeda link, any journalist would give his eye teeth to get his/her hands on that story. If it were even slightly credible, I think we'd expect the Thai government to be grabbing it with both hands and getting it publicised. But - not a word.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Steve2UK

[Scott]

If anyone wants to play the Al Queda/Terrorism card, then it is really quite important to screen these people. I very, very much doubt that they have any explosives, that they are educated enough to put a bomb together or have religious convictions in line with extremists. Surely they would be wiser to attack the gov't from which they are fleeing rather than the one they hope will host them.

At any point, if you tow them out to sea to die, you will never know who or what you are really dealing with.

I am sitting here swatting mosquitos. It makes me feel better, but it seems like no matter how many I get, there are still more around.

[Jingthing]

To keep this in perspective, active Al Queda people represent a tiny portion of even ONE PERCENT of all the many millions of Muslim people in the world.

[Tyke]

Yep it seems pretty rich that the whole refugee 'mentality' EXPECTS a handout from a country and suddenly when the other country raises its hand there is such a buzz from the bleeding liberals.

Thailand does what it wants and doesn't need to kow tow to the UN or any of the other meddlers who want to control everyone.

Ok putting them on a boat without enough food and water is a bit crazy and cruel.

BUT how much is enough? For all we know they might of been given enough but failed to ration it when at sea or got lost before making landfall. There is more to this than just one side of the story.

The Thais are not wanting to look like a soft touch, if they make it look like a 2nd Britain to the asian refugees then they'll be faced with a deluge of them, not the odd one and two we hear about once in a blue moon.

Thailand freely signed up to the Declaration of Human Rights so is fully obligated. If it didn't want to abide by the declaration then it was free to decline. It signed it - now it is obliged to comply with it. Full stop.

If it doesn't comply with UN declarations then it loses its influence internationally. It doesn't want to do that - so it will comply. Another full stop. It's not bleeding hearts, it's pure self interest to do these things and Thailand as much as anyone else realises that.

And to think that desperate refugees are put off trying to escape their miserable plights because of a few lashes across their backs or other 'suitable' treatments, including being abandoned at sea, shows a great deal of ignorance of what poverty does to people.

[simon43]

One point to note (not sure whether or not it is relevant), is that many (maybe the majority) of the coastal villages in the region of Ranong and south through to Khuraburi are Muslim, not Buddhist. I wonder what these Thai villagers think of the plight of their Rohingya brothers.

Simon

[brahmburgers]

I don't think anyone is trying to insinuate that Thailand should 'take' the Rohingyas. Countries routinely provide sanctuary for groups of people that they have no intention of allowing to remain long term. There are human concerns that override some of the more pragmatic concerns. The first thing, is these people need to be screened to see if they are true refugees. If so, they need to be provided with some protection from Thailand and the international community.

The UNHCR and other international organizations can put pressure on Burma to allow a reasonably safe return.

Lasting solutions are needed, not a quick fix endangering thousands and continuing to prop up a very brutal regime.

One of the best responses I've read on this thread. Thanks Scott.

mmmmm....., chains, torture, no presumption of innocence by the military, presumption that they must be terrorists .......... almost as bad as Guantanamo, except that at least in this case, the Head of government says he is against it.

Guantanamo is at least ordered closed....

It's a slick little comparison, but far off the mark. Most of the inmates at Guantanamo were rounded up as combatants who were pointing armed weapons at American soldiers with every intention to kill as many as they could. They're in detention and provided decent meals and shelter, beds, clean clothes and quorans. Sure, there are serious drawbacks at Guantanamo, but it's a far different scenario than the delayed murder of Rohingas we're hearing about.

[OlRedEyes]

Guantanamo, Al Queda, bleeding heart liberals. Haven't bothered to read the whole long thread, just the last page showed enough of the sad little apologists-at-all-costs for Thailand to make me nauseous.

Seems no low is low enough in this part of the world. Gives the concept of standards a whole new sickening meaning.

[Scott]

Oldredeyes: Yes, the only thing that stands between us and them is the amount of baht we possess.

I have a question about the prosecution and potential deportation of the Rohingya. I noted that the number of people in court was less than the number of arrivals. I am guessing, and I stress GUESSING, that the difference has to do with those on the boat who are underage. There were a number of teenagers, who may be unaccommpanied. I am wondering if their cases will be handled differently. It certainly should be.

[Jai Dee]

Judge convicts scared migrants

66 fear return to Myanmar

RANONG, Thailand

A Thai court Wednesday convicted 66 barefoot, disheveled migrants detained at sea of illegally entering the country, raising the prospect they could be sent back to Myanmar despite fears they would be persecuted there.

A Ranong provincial court judge sentenced each defendant to five days in prison after none of them was able to pay a 1,000 baht ($30) fine. Four were brought to the court from the hospital, one carried by two men because his legs were broken.

The Thai navy detained the Rohingya migrants Monday after their rickety boat was found adrift in the Andaman Sea off Thailand's southwestern coast. The Thai government contends that the migrants do not qualify for refugee status, and a police official said they could be expelled after they served their sentence.

"Please kill me here if you are going to send me back," migrant Kamal Hussein begged in an interview with the Associated Press. "If I go back, there is no land, no food, no safety. The [Myanmar] junta hates us."

Mr. Hussein, 28, was among 78 migrants on the boat. Twelve minors were being held separately because they are too young to be tried, said Ranong police Col. Weerasilp Kwanseng.

Mr. Hussein, from Myanmar's coastal city of Sittwe, said that before they were picked up by the Thais, their boat was stopped by the Myanmar navy. He said the Myanmar sailors beat him and others and took their food away.

Migrants intercepted at sea by Thailand are taken to provincial court in southwestern for a hearing on charges of illegal entry - for which they were convicted and fined.

When the sailors left, they told the refugees, "Go to die wherever you want to go," he said.

The plight of the Rohingyas - a stateless, Muslim ethnic group who fled persecution in Myanmar, also known as Burma - was highlighted earlier this month after accusations that some of them had been abused by Thai authorities. Human rights groups say the Thai navy has twice intercepted boats filled with hundreds of Rohingyas and sent them back to sea, where hundreds later died.

Thai authorities have repeatedly denied wrongdoing, insisting they only detain and repatriate people entering the country illegally.

The Foreign Ministry said Thailand faces an "enormous burden" because of 3 million illegal migrants currently in the country.

Human rights agencies and the U.S. government have long asserted that the Rohingyas face gross discrimination and are denied citizenship in their homeland of Myanmar because they are Muslims. Military-ruled Myanmar, which is about 90 percent Buddhist, has been criticized for years by human rights groups for mistreatment of ethnic minorities.

Source: AP - 29 January 2009

[brahmburgers]

serious dilemma for those unfortunate Rohinga.

It's one manifestation of overpopulation on a finite planet. Yes, there are many other problems - just with the Rohinga in SW Burma, but none more dire than overpopulation and a dearth of resources. If there were a lush uninhabited/unclaimed island somewhere, they might have a place to settle - but there haven't been unclaimed lush islands available on this planet since ......I don't know ...since the first people got to New Zealand (?) ...which also spelled the demise of the Moa and countless other indigenous species, but that's another story.

There's a science fiction short story (can't recall the name) by Larry Niven which describes another planet which, when viewed from space, all the continents had black borders around them. When the space travelers got close enough to see details, they realized the black borders were desperate hordes of people (on desert land masses) cramming all the shorelines, trying to get the only food available - which was some mush which grew in the seas.

As for the topic: yes, it's also a tough scenario for Thai authorities. Probably the best of several bad options is for the Rohinga to get sent back (forcefully if necessary) to where they came from. Quite likely they'll continue to get persecuted and continue to eke by in poverty, but they're just one oppressed minority in a world full of them. Were that everyone could be beach bums surfing at Malibu, and taking breaks to go to the deli and to twist-by-the-poolside parties, but that's just not possible in this cruel world.

Edited January 29, 2009 by brahmburgers

[samgrowth]

Judge convicts scared migrants

66 fear return to Myanmar

Twelve minors were being held separately because they are too young to be tried, said Ranong police Col. Weerasilp Kwanseng.

Source: AP - 29 January 2009

They have no ID. How do they know that they are underage?

[DaleBlue]

Refugees are not pest. Please treat them as humans. See this list of famous refugees. People like Olivia Newton-John Madeleine Albright Henry Kissinger Karl Marx Albert Einstein Marlene Dietrich etc are all refugees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_refugees

One day, one of these refugees may be the Prime Minister of Thailand. Even US can have a coloured President.

[Tyke]

One day, one of these refugees may be the Prime Minister of Thailand. Even US can have a coloured President.

He is/was. Didn't Thaksin try it on by claiming political asylum or some such thing?

[JoeThePoster]

One day, one of these refugees may be the Prime Minister of Thailand

Or vice-versa.

[saneroad]

Any possible link to terrorism would be quite dubious. Were there explosives aboard the boats? Can they read or write? Are they trained as engineers (Oh, they can't even repair a boat engine)? Terrorists are generally well-funded and tend to 'blend' in--not exactly the hallmark of this group. As far as national security threat is concerned, that is plausible. Thousands of undocumented people running around is not in the interest of the country.

But the possible concerns can only be addressed if they are treated as refugees and screened to find out where they are coming from, what is 'pushing' them out of their own area and what is 'pulling' them in this direction. Those facing persecution need to be protected, those who do not, need to be repatriated to their country of origin.

In addition to the UNHCR, there are numerous international organizations that are more than willing to assist with the problem, both internally in Thailand as well as in dealing with the home countries of these people.

Further mistreatment is not likely to solve the problem. Even the disappearance of large numbers of them won't stop others from coming if the situation at home is bad enough.

Dr Pornthip is now checking Rohingya boats and men for evidence of bombs...

Thailand's Famed Forensic Scientist Asked to Check Boat People

[Bangyai]

It is very reassuring to know that according to Mr Aphisit the refugees are being dealt with in a humane way :

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/13...-rohingya-abuse

Mr.Aphisits solidarity with the military is reminicent of Thaksins after the Tak Bai incident, except they were not refugees.

[Samuian]

And smear campaign is organized by who? The Tourism Authority of Myanmar perhaps!

just think!

as this problem is by far NOT a new one and NOT caused by this government and certainly not by Abhisit or the Democrats!

Today "The Nation" informs it's readers that 78 "Boat people" have been arrested and charged for illegal entry!

and from pother sources the "boat people" have complained about being harassed by Burmese military and that they tried to set the vessel ablaze!

STATELESS MIGRANTS: Faced with persecution because they are Muslims living in a Buddhist country, the Rohingya have fled abroad for decades. As many as 2 million have set up communities from Saudi Arabia to Malaysia where most work illegally.

About a half-million Rohingya escaped during military crackdowns in 1978 and 1991, the majority of them moved to Bangladesh. Many remain exiled in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Thailand and Malaysia.

HIGH SEAS JOURNEY: Since 2006, Bangladesh has made it harder to get passports, so the Rohingya began making the dangerous journey by boat to Thailand and then overland to Malaysia for work.

AP-Associated Press

Dr.Pornthip has been send to investigate the allegations...

......many of whom were suffering injuries they said were inflicted by the Myanmese military.

Dr Pornthip said she was checking the age of the wounds, some of which resembled whip lashes on the back and petrol burns, to make sure they were not inflicted in Thai custody.

The men were handed over to police by the Thai navy on Monday.

Source:

Edited January 29, 2009 by Samuian

[sriracha john]

Thailand Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya, left, shakes hands with U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees Hall Raymond at Foreign Ministry in Bangkok, Thailand, on Thursday, Jan. 29. 2009. Kasit says it would grant the United Nations access to 66 Myanmar boat people convicted for illegally entering the country following allegations that Thai officials had earlier abused asylum seekers beached on its shores.

Associated Press

[samgrowth]

According to the South China Morning Post, the barbaric policy was introduced by the Thai army's elite Internal Security Operations Command (ISOC) in December when it took control of refugee matters from civilian immigration services. The newspaper published photographs of Colonel Manat Khongpan, a regional commander in ISOC, supervising tens of hand-bound refugees on Sai Daeng beach.

Read more here

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jan2009/refu-j29.shtml

[brahmburgers]

Refugees are not pest. Please treat them as humans. See this list of famous refugees. People like Olivia Newton-John Madeleine Albright Henry Kissinger Karl Marx Albert Einstein Marlene Dietrich etc are all refugees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_refugees

One day, one of these refugees may be the Prime Minister of Thailand. Even US can have a coloured President.

Obama is just as much caucasian as he is black, but it's hipper to call him black (coloured, wow that dates you).

But you're right, skin color is a major factor for the imbroglio going on with the Rohingas. If the boat people had Icelanders' creamy white skin - the dynamics would be considerably different. Ask any Thai about dark skinned people ('dam dam' or 'nikero') and they'll likely tell you they're dirtier and lower cast. Looked at from the other side of the mirror, notice the gargantuan amount of skin whitener products advertised and bought throughout Thailand each day. It's enough to swamp a boat choked with dark skinned people, left to die - floating out in the middle of the Andaman sea.

[Samuian]

According to the South China Morning Post, the barbaric policy was introduced by the Thai army's elite Internal Security Operations Command (ISOC) in December when it took control of refugee matters from civilian immigration services. The newspaper published photographs of Colonel Manat Khongpan, a regional commander in ISOC, supervising tens of hand-bound refugees on Sai Daeng beach.

Read more here

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jan2009/refu-j29.shtml

barbaric - however recent events will hopefully change something for these people!

Myanmar has to acknowledge them as a Minority and grant them the right to stay in arcan state.

But as this problem waits to get solved another problem is surfacing already - "6 Million Burmese need Food"!

Reports BBCWorld:

[Scott]

It's good that the gov't recognized that the unaccompanied minors shouldn't be detained with the others. They also should not be repatriated with the others. At a very minimum, the gov't or UN needs to confirm that they have parents and that they can be returned to their families.

Another point is to be aware of words that emotive. The gov't keeps referring to them as illegal migrants or economic migrants. Others refer to them as refugees. They need to be screened to determine their actual status and whether they are genuine political refugees. It's highly unlikely that they are not refugees given their status in Burma and long history of mistreatment.

An open discussion with international agencies, some assurances from the Thai gov't and some international financial assistance to prevent the refoulment of genuine political refugees is in order. Burma can and will face a great deal of 'loss of face' the more attention that is paid to the issue. They will face pressure from within ASEAN as well as the international community.

This is what is needed and it will take a long and sustained effort to get it.

Thailand needs to be on the side of right rather than expediency. They can use this situation to their advantage and all it takes is abiding by some legal conventions and their own supposed Buddhist values. Might be good for them to try and change their Karma, if not their public issue as of late.

[blaze]

Dr.Pornthip has been send to investigate the allegations...

......many of whom were suffering injuries they said were inflicted by the Myanmese military.

Dr Pornthip said she was checking the age of the wounds, some of which resembled whip lashes on the back and petrol burns, to make sure they were not inflicted in Thai custody.

The men were handed over to police by the Thai navy on Monday.

Source:

This would truly put the Thais between a rock and a hard place: if these people were beaten by Burmese authorities- then just maybe, they are in fact warranting of status as legitimate refugees- something the Thai Government is, I believe, obliged to investigate and consider--- but if they weren't beaten by the Burmese authorities- then who did beat them, if not the Thais?

Now that the Thai and Burmese militarys are working together on this case- might we hear a joint communique to the effect that- problem solved- these criminals beat their own selves up.

[sriracha john]

PM postpones deportation of Rohingya

PM Abhisit Vejjajiva on Thursday ordered the postponement of the deportation of 78 Rohingya refugees and asked a forensic expert to examine their wounds. Khunying Porntip Rojanasunan, the Director-General of Forensic Science, went to Ranong province on the same day to inspect the case where Thai authorities were accused of maltreatment of the boat people. After examining the wounds of all immigrants, who were arrested upon arrival to Thailand on Tuesday, Dr Porntip said the wounds, mostly resulted from cuts and beats, were more than 10 days old, thus it is impossible that Thai officials hurt them. "And after having spoken to them through interpretators, the boat people said they were injured by Burmese soldiers when they were coming by boat to Thailand." Of all, 66 people reportedly have injuries, she said. They will be treated in Thailand until they recover before

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/13...-of-boat-people

[Pierrot]

Dr.Pornthip has been send to investigate the allegations...

......many of whom were suffering injuries they said were inflicted by the Myanmese military.

Dr Pornthip said she was checking the age of the wounds, some of which resembled whip lashes on the back and petrol burns, to make sure they were not inflicted in Thai custody.

The men were handed over to police by the Thai navy on Monday.

Source:

This would truly put the Thais between a rock and a hard place: if these people were beaten by Burmese authorities- then just maybe, they are in fact warranting of status as legitimate refugees- something the Thai Government is, I believe, obliged to investigate and consider--- but if they weren't beaten by the Burmese authorities- then who did beat them, if not the Thais?

Now that the Thai and Burmese militarys are working together on this case- might we hear a joint communique to the effect that- problem solved- these criminals beat their own selves up.

Don't worry, since it's our local CSI star Dr Pornthip who investigate the case, the wounds will probably be found to have been caused by obsolete Chinese boats purchased by the Thaksin administration.

[sriracha john]

Forensic Institute Director Visits Rohingya Refugees in Ranong

The Director of the Central Institute of Forensic Science visited Ranong Province to examine on the wounds suffered by Rohingya refugees and announced that they were definitely caused by whips.

Dr. Pornthip Rojanasunan, Director of the Justice Ministry's Central Institute of Forensic Science, together with Ranong Governor Wanchart Wongchaichana and officials from associated organisations visited Ranong Hospital to make enquiries and check on the wounds of Mamadfati, Mamadjorkit , Sotameen, and Nulukobi, four Rohingya refugees who are recuperating at the hospital.

The refugees were apparently struck by soldiers in Myanmar.

All four suffered severe wounds which became heavily infected, especially Sotameen, who has a deep wound in his upper leg and on the back of his feet. Mamadfati, who suffered an injury to his right leg, broke down in tears and thanked those who visited and helped him.

The director of the Central Institute of Forensic Science stated after the visit that the wounds on all 66 patients indicate that they were hit with whips. Some are suffering deep infected wounds, which must be treated before they are able to be sent back to their country.

On Koh Sai Daeng no evidence has been found indicating that Thai soldiers used force against the Rohingya refugees. Moreover, the refugees' boats were destroyed by the Rohingya themselves, as they stated that they do not want to travel anymore.

The Ranong Governor, the commander of Ranong Prison, and the Ranong Hospital director insisted that they will help the Rohingya refugees with concern for human rights, until they have recovered and are ready to be sent out of the country.

- TOC / 2009-01-29

[blaze]

Forensic Institute Director Visits Rohingya Refugees in Ranong

The Director of the Central Institute of Forensic Science visited Ranong Province to examine on the wounds suffered by Rohingya refugees and announced that they were definitely caused by whips.

Dr. Pornthip Rojanasunan, Director of the Justice Ministry's Central Institute of Forensic Science, together with Ranong Governor Wanchart Wongchaichana and officials from associated organisations visited Ranong Hospital to make enquiries and check on the wounds of Mamadfati, Mamadjorkit , Sotameen, and Nulukobi, four Rohingya refugees who are recuperating at the hospital.

The refugees were apparently struck by soldiers in Myanmar.

All four suffered severe wounds which became heavily infected, especially Sotameen, who has a deep wound in his upper leg and on the back of his feet. Mamadfati, who suffered an injury to his right leg, broke down in tears and thanked those who visited and helped him.

The director of the Central Institute of Forensic Science stated after the visit that the wounds on all 66 patients indicate that they were hit with whips. Some are suffering deep infected wounds, which must be treated before they are able to be sent back to their country.

On Koh Sai Daeng no evidence has been found indicating that Thai soldiers used force against the Rohingya refugees. Moreover, the refugees' boats were destroyed by the Rohingya themselves, as they stated that they do not want to travel anymore.

The Ranong Governor, the commander of Ranong Prison, and the Ranong Hospital director insisted that they will help the Rohingya refugees with concern for human rights, until they have recovered and are ready to be sent out of the country.

- TOC / 2009-01-29

Am I missing something here? The Burmese either boarded the migrant boats- or were able to detain the migrants previous to their disembarking - beat the crap out of them for attempting to leave the country- then after a good lashing, permitted them to... continue on their way?

But if that wasn't the way it was- what possible reason would the refugees have for deflecting the finger of blame away from the Thai authorities- in whose custody they currently languish?

[asiaworld]

What bewilders me, is that the world community is more than happy to 'play along' 'the thai game' .. Closing their eyes at any atrocities & violations unfit of democratic society ! & still coming here in planeloads to shake hands etc! At the same time boycotting Myanmar >which only had 1 coup d'etat comparing to over 20 in Thailand ! The only reason those poor sods turn into refugees here, is that with lack of foreign investment upcountry Myanmar is underdeveloped & poor.

Perhaps the world should reverse & fly to the Genuinely unspoiled beaches of Myanmar instead, boycotting LOS ! Than i bet in 10 years you'll have refugees running the other way !