Police Arrest Major Heroin Dealers With Evidence Worth 6.5 Million Baht

[oevna]

...

how come so many top medical experts tell me in hushed voice ' actually it will do you no harm so long sas you do not abue it..."

...

The answer is, because so few people can go through life "using" heroin (by your definition) without eventually ending up abusing it. And once you start abusing it, it is nearly impossible to stop. The success rate for recovery from addiction to heroin is very low (by success I mean cessation of all recreational opiate use, so not counting lifelong methadone maintenance).

[mrtoad]

...

how come so many top medical experts tell me in hushed voice ' actually it will do you no harm so long sas you do not abue it..."

...

The answer is, because so few people can go through life "using" heroin (by your definition) without eventually ending up abusing it. And once you start abusing it, it is nearly impossible to stop. The success rate for recovery from addiction to heroin is very low (by success I mean cessation of all recreational opiate use, so not counting lifelong methadone maintenance).

This exactly the point that the majority of people are thinking. Ourmanisbonkers is using ambiguous statements, which she is claiming are coming from top medical experts. Well, I for one don't believe that they actually go along with her argument, although the get out card here is "...won't do you any harm if you don't abuse it". If your argument is correct, then please come out with research based evidednce, as you have failed to produce any so far. "Experts tell me in a hushed voice......". absolute disingenious nonsense, used to fit your very hollow, and boring agenda.

I understand that Doctors and professionals who work in this field do advocate controlled Heroin prescribing if so warranted and under very strick guidelines, but the majority do not want complaete legalization of heroin, which is what I believe that you are implying.

Evidence to back this up is here http://pb.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/29/4/123

You might like to read, Against the Legalization of Heroin, Journal article by Peter De Marneffe; Criminal Justice Ethics, Vol. 22, 2003. Rather interesting article.

[ourmaninbangers]

Heroin addiction is its own death sentence.

So is alcohol addiction, shall we hang all the Berwery owners, all the pub owners, all the governments that benefit from the tax, all the users of Alcohol ?

Of course I'm exagerrating, yet Alcohol abuse causes so much suffering in this world, just look at all the Alcohol fuelled violence in the world, rapes assaults, kilings, the list goes on and on.....

Why is Alcohol legal ?

my goodness, someone else with an open mind...thank you

seems I am not alone

and now seems I have an agenda... yes... and if so boring, why so many response,s?

people hate the the truth

it is so sad because they are actually stoping progress when we are on the same side

[ourmaninbangers]

...

how come so many top medical experts tell me in hushed voice ' actually it will do you no harm so long sas you do not abue it..."

...

The answer is, because so few people can go through life "using" heroin (by your definition) without eventually ending up abusing it. And once you start abusing it, it is nearly impossible to stop. The success rate for recovery from addiction to heroin is very low (by success I mean cessation of all recreational opiate use, so not counting lifelong methadone maintenance).

This exactly the point that the majority of people are thinking. Ourmanisbonkers is using ambiguous statements, which she is claiming are coming from top medical experts. Well, I for one don't believe that they actually go along with her argument, although the get out card here is "...won't do you any harm if you don't abuse it". If your argument is correct, then please come out with research based evidednce, as you have failed to produce any so far. "Experts tell me in a hushed voice......". absolute disingenious nonsense, used to fit your very hollow, and boring agenda.

I understand that Doctors and professionals who work in this field do advocate controlled Heroin prescribing if so warranted and under very strick guidelines, but the majority do not want complaete legalization of heroin, which is what I believe that you are implying.

Evidence to back this up is here http://pb.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/29/4/123

You might like to read, Against the Legalization of Heroin, Journal article by Peter De Marneffe; Criminal Justice Ethics, Vol. 22, 2003. Rather interesting article.

I am sad to hear you say some of this making it personal again

what is my hollow and boring agenda?

to repeat what I am told?,

to report what I see?,

to do what I do ?( cannot say in case of boast accuse)

to want an improvement in this totally flailed war aginst drug's?

is this a bad agenda? Is it hollow?

maybe you are all right and I am just some stupid bitch who is misguided... I pray not

right now my heart tell's me to carry on, despite your insult's

all I see is a losing war, a rich mafia, innocent people in jail, more addict's, less proper policing

and why? many reason's... one of which is dis-information and no middle ground

I want to see centre open that tell youth the truth

yes...maybe you say it is wrong to do this, or is my truth...

in my centre I will plead the danger's and how easily use can become abuse, and how if they still inisist, to avoid this

please tell me- is this wrong?

I do not know what is disingenious, I guess an insult... and if so boring then why.. oh better not, I will be accused of the boast

and by the way, not all experts say this, only some.. some are dead against it, some say like you, I should shut up and say its all bad and will lead to death

then what happen when the truth leaks out- who is trusted now?

but nobody, and I challenge all of you to this can tell me that use of heroin in properly administed condition's/dose's will have negitve effect

I know I may seem to be playing with words to win my case

this seems to be the crux, there is no doubt that use of herion is NOT bad for you so long as not abused ,BUT the main problem is that use so easily can become abuse, and then the habit become extremely hard to deal with

once taken it is extremely hard to stop- thus the middle road

many expert tells me this, so long as regular, some, not all, say" no problem- live on"

oh, I see, you said same thing at top...

off to bed and to ask myself if I am really the one in need of help!

let us fight amoungst ourselves for a common goal, a better world,but polite please,...

"hollow" naughty boy...- do you know how much that cause's an egotistical gal like me to lose sleep? ( joke)

peace & love

XXX

[ourmaninbangers]

...

how come so many top medical experts tell me in hushed voice ' actually it will do you no harm so long sas you do not abue it..."

...

The answer is, because so few people can go through life "using" heroin (by your definition) without eventually ending up abusing it. And once you start abusing it, it is nearly impossible to stop. The success rate for recovery from addiction to heroin is very low (by success I mean cessation of all recreational opiate use, so not counting lifelong methadone maintenance).

yes, I agree, they say same, at least we're on same page here,

but what happen when they are turned away?

insist to doing, as many do,

they have no middle ground, no where to go..no one to help explain... the average time to make appointments, the average time a doctor is prepared to see...

more money is spent on trying to help the pusher's get back into society!!!!

they have the bleeding hearts liberals like me saying ' there, there..."

would it be better if there were progames of prevention rather than cure? and this needs honesty and fact's

when , let me tell you, the vast majorty have no intention of doing this at all

and are only looking forward to using the new aquired contacts, skills they just leant in jail to commit more crime's

back to victim's,their use become abuse, because they are not given any info on how to minimize, the tool's to do so

I would take some time and show them the horror's of some poor man going through cold turkey hel_l and say

' this is what can, and very often does happen... do you wish to risk this? why are you doing this? I want to help and understand you...if you insist after seeing this please ( depending upon what) .... do this"

I suppose you all think I would say " oh, well, listen I know so many who take it and its no problemo... go ahead, here is how and where to take... you will be okay..."

you must be <deleted> joking- just because I like truth, facts, does not mean I am blind to danger's, nor would I use to the manipulation's

and do you think this policy of basicly telling lie's is good?

I do not, I think this has become counterproductive as it has made the youth loss faith in people who should not hide thing's- tell true, tell all true

e.g " take heroin and die" ( the totaly failed war on drug's)

the war failed, is failing, and the answers to why secretly tell us how to deal

sol invitus

[ourmaninbangers]

Oh no !

Not another source mentioning that Heroin is bad for you !

. . . their own prolonged death sentences.

Heroin addiction is its own death sentence. I'm not making a moral statement. I lost a loved one to it.

very sorry to hear that Sir

may he RIP

Godbless

X

[mrtoad]

Bangers, you are clearly getting a tad sensitive , there were no insults in my post, just me putting some reading there for you. There is no reson for me to post for personal gain. I'm just putting up some stuff that opposes your view. I'm also more than aware of other articles regarding legislation of heroin and other illicit substtance, along with such policy initiatives as DTTO's, SMARS, and POU's. I agree that there does need to be more thought put into drug policy and legislation, but not total relaxation of the law, i.e complete legality.

If you actually looked at my posting, you might understand what my background actually is, rather than assume that I have a totally blinkered opinion, and no knowledge. I don't proclaim to be an expert in drug policy, rehabilitation, miss use and legislation, but I do have a little more understanding than you give me credit for, it's just you don't agree with my stance.

Edited January 17, 2009 by mrtoad

[Canada]

my goodness, someone else with an open mind...thank you

seems I am not alone

and now seems I have an agenda... yes... and if so boring, why so many response,s?

people hate the the truth

it is so sad because they are actually stoping progress when we are on the same side

You keep going on about the truth......what do you know about it ?...really. I suggest that you try a little "truth searching mission". Start using Heroin, recreationally. Get back to us in about 6 months with the truth based on experience. Anybody that says that Heroin use is not harmful is an idiot. Heroin use leads to Heroin addiction. Heroin addiction is extremely destructive to the addict and anyone that knows the addict. I would say that a very tiny percentage of people that recreationally use heroin do not become addicted. Those that manage to remain somewhat "functional" throughout their addiction, are again few and far between. Those that claim to be functional throughout their addiction and claim that heroin is not harmful are lying so that they can justify their use, and keep using. Actually, you know what? The words and your writing stlye and your ideas....you sound like a junkie. You ought to know the truth. If I am wrong.....I invite you....go and find it....

Yeah...you struck a nerve. Of all the junkies I knew....not one of them ever said that Heroin was not harmful. Even while they were using. Yeah....you go and find the truth.

[BeauKarl]

Bangers, your posts are so boring and repetitive.

Why are those doctors not comming out in public? If it's true and justified what they say, no one could punish them for doing so.

You keep saying you know people who use,...blablabla, so do many of us, but with different experiences on how they turn out. (altough you only have a few freinds who live 'normally' on it and the rest are in jail)

You keep saying that there needs to be prevention, altough there's loads of it and every school in the West has them. (speakers, posters...) How much more prevention do we need. The truth is, some people listen, some don't. Nomatter how many times you tell them.

What does me is people like you who use open forums to say that it's not harmfull, don't you think that maybe one day some young kid will say, hey she knows it, she has friends who live a normal live on heroin and she sais that doctors say that it's not harmfull,.... so I need to try that.

That could be one more kid that you might have to help in the future.

You keep telling us that we need to have an open mind, but maybe, very maybe it's you who's so focused on it, that you're the one who's not open anymore.

[ourmaninbangers]

Bangers, your posts are so boring and repetitive.

Why are those doctors not comming out in public? If it's true and justified what they say, no one could punish them for doing so.

You keep saying you know people who use,...blablabla, so do many of us, but with different experiences on how they turn out. (altough you only have a few freinds who live 'normally' on it and the rest are in jail)

You keep saying that there needs to be prevention, altough there's loads of it and every school in the West has them. (speakers, posters...) How much more prevention do we need. The truth is, some people listen, some don't. Nomatter how many times you tell them.

What does me is people like you who use open forums to say that it's not harmfull, don't you think that maybe one day some young kid will say, hey she knows it, she has friends who live a normal live on heroin and she sais that doctors say that it's not harmfull,.... so I need to try that.

That could be one more kid that you might have to help in the future.

You keep telling us that we need to have an open mind, but maybe, very maybe it's you who's so focused on it, that you're the one who's not open anymore.

if so boring why reply and say so boring?

did I say it is not harmful... where...please show me where I said this without quliafication?( hope you get my mean)

you cannot can you? look what we have, misquote, insults, one man says it will lead to be an addict, a few seconds later he concedes that this is not always the case

you guy's really are a bit of a joke

and show just one kind who I have spocken to, of which there are so many who can say I do not advise against, go into detail of how easily use can become abuse.. and why best not to start

but if they do take, and insist upon doing so- I do not say its lost cause, thats all

yes, we need more prevention, the more the better

and why do they not come out? ( one poster other than me wrote of the reson why)

, ask the mod's here for one...seem's my statement have been looked upin as advocating breaking the law, all i wanted to do in one was quote some man apponted by ronald reagan

next every time i post something which seem's to answer you I cannot..maybe it is me

[ourmaninbangers]

Bangers, you are clearly getting a tad sensitive , there were no insults in my post, just me putting some reading there for you. There is no reson for me to post for personal gain. I'm just putting up some stuff that opposes your view. I'm also more than aware of other articles regarding legislation of heroin and other illicit substtance, along with such policy initiatives as DTTO's, SMARS, and POU's. I agree that there does need to be more thought put into drug policy and legislation, but not total relaxation of the law, i.e complete legality.

If you actually looked at my posting, you might understand what my background actually is, rather than assume that I have a totally blinkered opinion, and no knowledge. I don't proclaim to be an expert in drug policy, rehabilitation, miss use and legislation, but I do have a little more understanding than you give me credit for, it's just you don't agree with my stance.

mrtoad

what am i doing the wrong? look at what we have, insult's one man saying one thing " heroin use leads to addiction" a few minutes later he concede's that this is not always the case...

then goes on to completely trash his argue by asking me to talk to someone who has taken for over 6 months and is okay... should I whisper this...I have and do, and they are fine

should i not say this?

one man seems to say I advocate taking drugs... is my english that bad? or, like me ar ethey guilty of reading everything

by the way, who is jasper?

one of my big complain in that the crooks seem to ahve much more time than the potentil addict's

to amke a appontment they may her " come back tomorrow" tomorrow can be too late!

and they need a consul expert

and someone who will not call them junky and say " you will now be dead soon if you already take.."

that is simply not true...

am I bad for say this- today I feel down,, need a shoulder to cry on

advice please

X

[Canada]

mrtoad

what am i doing the wrong? look at what we have, insult's one man saying one thing " heroin use leads to addiction" a few minutes later he concede's that this is not always the case...

then goes on to completely trash his argue by asking me to talk to someone who has taken for over 6 months and is okay... should I whisper this...I have and do, and they are fine

should i not say this?

one man seems to say I advocate taking drugs... is my english that bad? or, like me ar ethey guilty of reading everything

by the way, who is jasper?

one of my big complain in that the crooks seem to ahve much more time than the potentil addict's

to amke a appontment they may her " come back tomorrow" tomorrow can be too late!

and they need a consul expert

and someone who will not call them junky and say " you will now be dead soon if you already take.."

that is simply not true...

am I bad for say this- today I feel down,, need a shoulder to cry on

advice please

X

actually I didn't say go talk to someone who has used for six months. I said go try it yourself for six months then come back and tell us that it is not harmful. Heroin use does lead to addiction. Ask any doctor. Also, In terms of "he concedes that this is not always the case"...I said a very small percentage who recreationally use heroin do not become addicted....so....argue the exception......whatever. In the vast majority of cases of heroin use, it ends up causing much damage. Argue that. Please do not take my words out of context.

[oevna]

Bangers, just stop. For all practical purposes, recreational heroin use (that IS what you are talking about here) always leads to addiction. If you think otherwise, you are severely misinformed. Your friends who do heroin are telling you what you want to hear (and no doubt what they want to believe). Now tell them to try giving it up for a week. Just see if they can.

We are not telling you this to insult you. If some people have let the debate become a bit heated, just think of it as tough love. Heroin addiction is a serious social problem, and we all hope that you and your friends do not end up addicted to it. Heroin use should be restricted to pain management under a doctor's supervision, if at all. Given that we have other opiates that are nearly as good and less addictive, there isn't even really much need for it there either.

[Canada]

you have not actually said that heroin use is not harmful...correct. What you did say was that it is not bad for you.....taken correctly. Then you do go on to say at least two times that it is very easy to abuse. You openly contradict yourself.

Actually, it is very hard not to abuse it or become addicted. However you want to say it. Why are you arguing this?

In terms of laws and the War on Drugs....that's another story. We are not winning the war on drugs because there isn't one. Think for a moment about the jobs created by drug use and by drugs being illegal, then think about how prohibition makes a small amount of people very rich. Add it up. About this, I think we can agree.

But you must concede...Heroin use of any kind is bad for you. It leads to addiction.

BTW Oevna...an opiate is an opiate. Opiates are highly addictive. Addiction can be acheived under the supervision of a doctor for pain management, and withdrawal from the opiate can also be acheived under the supervision of a doctor. But an opiate is an opiate.

[mrtoad]

Bangers, just stop. For all practical purposes, recreational heroin use (that IS what you are talking about here) always leads to addiction. If you think otherwise, you are severely misinformed. Your friends who do heroin are telling you what you want to hear (and no doubt what they want to believe). Now tell them to try giving it up for a week. Just see if they can.

We are not telling you this to insult you. If some people have let the debate become a bit heated, just think of it as tough love. Heroin addiction is a serious social problem, and we all hope that you and your friends do not end up addicted to it. Heroin use should be restricted to pain management under a doctor's supervision, if at all. Given that we have other opiates that are nearly as good and less addictive, there isn't even really much need for it there either.

Yep, fully agree with that as well. In the UK Any medical practitioner can prescribe heroin in the treatment of medical conditions, such as pain management, but doctors need a licence from the Home Office to prescribe it for treating addiction. Presentl, there are very few dctors who are licenced to do this. Ovena I guess, that you are from the States? Where Heroin prescribing is much more controlled than the UK, or am I making an assumption?

Quite a good report in relation to heroin prescribing in treatment of addiction. .Prescribing heroin: What is the evidence? by Gerry V. Stimson and Nicky Metrebian, is published by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation.

Ovena, as you have pointed out, Heroin is a highly addictive drug, more so than a number of others. This is again backed up by evidence based medical research,: link supplied for reference

http://www.antiproibizionisti.it/public/do...et_20070323.pdf

Heroins is prohibited because of the impacts that it has not just on healt bu society in general. I'm not going to include Alcohol in here, as It is like comparing apples and oranges, in fact I could even make an argument that chocolate cake is as bad as Heroin, so that should be to, but that would be just pushing the limits.

Enjoy the reading.

[ourmaninbangers]

what am i doing the wrong? look at what we have, insult's one man saying one thing " heroin use leads to addiction" a few minutes later he concede's that this is not always the case...

then goes on to completely trash his argue by asking me to talk to someone who has taken for over 6 months and is okay... should I whisper this...I have and do, and they are fine

should i not say this?

one man seems to say I advocate taking drugs... is my english that bad? or, like me ar ethey guilty of reading everything

by the way, who is jasper?

one of my big complain in that the crooks seem to ahve much more time than the potentil addict's

to amke a appontment they may her " come back tomorrow" tomorrow can be too late!

and they need a consul expert

and someone who will not call them junky and say " you will now be dead soon if you already take.."

that is simply not true...

am I bad for say this- today I feel down,, need a shoulder to cry on

advice please

X

actually I didn't say go talk to someone who has used for six months. I said go try it yourself for six months then come back and tell us that it is not harmful. Heroin use does lead to addiction. Ask any doctor. Also, In terms of "he concedes that this is not always the case"...I said a very small percentage who recreationally use heroin do not become addicted....so....argue the exception......whatever. In the vast majority of cases of heroin use, it ends up causing much damage. Argue that. Please do not take my words out of context.

no need to take anything out of context- you said it all, and I see you are from Canada,this is English speaking no.... no need to argue- again, you said it all.

Argue what?- no need.... I almost wanna kiss men like you

Same as me...that the majority, I know English not my first, but does that not mean, not 100%.

and hang on...in one of your posts you say the opposite.

Yes, I agree, it with you, oh, but you change...is majority is 100% or not?

I do not have to argue anything, stop feeling bad for tripping up....small percentage , majority, whatever, you have gone and contradicted yourself and I am here to tell you that a"junkie" as you so nicely put it is NOT a lost cause ( the majority means all, or 99.9%, that is not all, sometimes, oops.. oh, that actually does mean not always.. where I am, , for/against. better change that..oh dear!!!,,,,,)

Now, who do you think I am talking about when I talk of this person I know very well who took a lot longer

than 6 month's, stopped and is okay....

hey, guy's I have a good excuse for bad English, but how come all the colonials do not even know what their own word's mean.

And why do you hate me almost for saying this?

[ourmaninbangers]

Bangers, just stop. For all practical purposes, recreational heroin use (that IS what you are talking about here) always leads to addiction. If you think otherwise, you are severely misinformed. Your friends who do heroin are telling you what you want to hear (and no doubt what they want to believe). Now tell them to try giving it up for a week. Just see if they can.

We are not telling you this to insult you. If some people have let the debate become a bit heated, just think of it as tough love. Heroin addiction is a serious social problem, and we all hope that you and your friends do not end up addicted to it. Heroin use should be restricted to pain management under a doctor's supervision, if at all. Given that we have other opiates that are nearly as good and less addictive, there isn't even really much need for it there either.

just stop what...?so, in one of my friend center's someone comes in and say " I take smack"

do we the advice that they are a lost cause? kick them out, book the coffin

that they are now a "junkie"

a really demaning term

that is really not something I agree, should I tell them

that there is no hope that they, if not already will automatically become f-ed

surely Sir, for all "practical purpose's" we should look a very closely at this person's

for example, what cause's them to take

how much? what are the best way's to prevent damage

automatically prescribing methadone is not always the right road, in fact I think sometimes it truly is the bad road

you guy's seem to mix my wanting to tell people that one does not automatically ruin their lives and there are way's out and hope, and damage limitation equates to- come on, lets all try the needle , it is not that bad.." FXXX that, my English is not that the bad is it

I strongly object to the lost cause theory and to close the door on someone wanting a middle road

but if you think I somehow promote because I have seen people who have not messed up then either not my english, or something else

[Kerryd]

did I say it is not harmful... where...please show me where I said this without quliafication?( hope you get my mean)

You mean like your post here:

stop this utter crap that all drugs are bad

some, like herion have nothing bad in them

they prmote like ( check it out if you do not belief

people- know your subject please!

you cannot can you?

Guess I can.

[Crushdepth]

Trouble is, its not just heroin you're taking is it? There's all the crap they dilute it with for a start. Then there's HIV and hepatitus C and other diseases you get off your buddies. Great.

[mrtoad]

did I say it is not harmful... where...please show me where I said this without quliafication?( hope you get my mean)

You mean like your post here:

stop this utter crap that all drugs are bad

some, like herion have nothing bad in them

they prmote like ( check it out if you do not belief

people- know your subject please!

you cannot can you?

Guess I can.

Oh dear, guess he has.

[Dap]

Thanks for the chuckle... I can't believe any one really believes herion is not bad for you (unless of course they themselves shootup)....

I would also agree 7 kilos is probably just the tip of the iceburg... They have had a few fair sized busts recently.... I wonder what that does to the current street price for herion in Thailand...

I agree, "just the tip of the iceberg", but I also think that those who "themseves shootup" also live a life of regret in doing so. I am not a "bleeding heart", as I also decry the damage done by heroin. That said, I have lost friends (not aquaintances) to the drug, and have seen altogether too much sufferering by family members and friends, not to mention the anguish suffered by those addicted trying to rid themselves of the Beast. The term "addiction" does not come about lightly. Some of us are more easily swayed by the pleasures of the "dark side" than others.

[Canada]

what is the opinion of an idiot?.......

[Dap]

So, if you are not getting it administered by a doctor in an environment where your vital signs are being monitored, then it is dangerous. Otherwise, no problem!

I wholeheartedly agree on that point. I would have garnerned it from the streets for my mother when she was dying from bone cancer and in incredible pain many years ago, but she wouldn't hear of it. The doctors in those days thought they knew more about pain than their patients. She wouldn't have been an abuser. She would have had the opportunity to die not racked in pain. The U.S. Medical system wouldn't hear, or understand any of it. Yes, it does have it's advantages, but it's abuses have so far outweighed any possible medical use in the U.S., I believe to date.

[Dap]

what is the opinion of an idiot?.......

I don't know Canada, you know many idiots?

[Johpa]

As one who spent some time in their younger days in the embrace of Lady O, I would not want to see any opiate legalized. First understand that opiates are both physically and psychologically addictive as compared to say marijuana which is psychologically addictive. That means that many people, not everyone, but many people will simply not be able to stop using the opiates. I was one of the lucky ones. And it is a genetic mystery as to just who will become hopelessly addicted: we are simply unable to make that prediction. If their supply is interrupted for any reason whatsoever, they will become both physically and psychologically, how shall we say, incoherent. In that situation they will become a threat not only to themselves, but to others. The fact that many people, for whatever genetic factor, do not have addictive personalities, is irrelevant. The fact that some people are able to function using heroin is also irrelevant, but rest assured they are functioning at an impaired level. The fact that many societies foolishly allow the uncontrolled sales of equally dangerous drugs for profit and taxation is also irrelevant. And a bottom line for many of us with even minimal experience is that you can never, ever trust an addict, even those whose facade would lead you to believe they are functioning just fine.

Another factor is that many people who take opiates fall into a relentless stupor. This was the case in China in the 19th century, the last instance where opiates were made broadly available to a large populace. Society does not function well when large segments cease all productive behavior. Again, the fact that some people's body chemistry handles opiates better than others is irrelevant.

That being said, opiates are an excellent pain killer and in a semi-synthetic form are being prescribed relentlessly as oxycodone, or what I call here in the US as legalized heroin but what the conservatives prefer to call euphemistically as simply pain killers. Somehow it is more socially acceptable for upper and middle class white folks to become addicted to "pain killers" rather than to note an addiction to an opiate.

Once a person has become addicted to opiates, the only reliable treatment, and it is a medical condition and not a criminal behavior, is to allow them controlled access to the drugs and hope they can be slowly weaned off the drug. But to advocate the legalization of any opiate is foolhardy. Decriminalization of usage is one thing, but opiates need to be retained as highly restricted drugs with severe penalties for those attempting to bypass the government controls on the sale of such dangerous drugs. Or at least that is how this former user sees it.

[mrtoad]

Excellent post Jopha.

[spacefruit]

Careful use of regulated heroin without damaging bulking agents will not harm humans any more than alcohol or other recreational drugs.

What will destroy a person is the lifestyle almost always required to maintain a steady supply, or that goes with what is an illegal activity.

Any substance "abuse", ie taking more than a certain amount, (Different in individuals, vis. alcohol), will cause damage.

Some of us know.

(Clean 22 years)

Edited January 19, 2009 by spacefruit

[oevna]

BTW Oevna...an opiate is an opiate. Opiates are highly addictive. Addiction can be acheived under the supervision of a doctor for pain management, and withdrawal from the opiate can also be acheived under the supervision of a doctor. But an opiate is an opiate.

You are missing my point entirely. I am not saying that addiction to an opiate can be avoided just because it is administered by a doctor. I am saying that opiates should only ever be administered by a doctor (or at least prescribed, in the case of milder oral opiates such as codeine or hydrocodone). This is exactly because of the risk of addiction. If left in the hands of the patient, few people have the willpower to do what it takes to wean themselves off of it. There are cases where lifelong addiction to opiates is an acceptable side effect (such as in some cases of terminal cancer), and less severe cases where addiction occurs during pain management, and after recovery from the medical condition doctors help to wean the patient off of the opiates.

I never stated that doctor-prescribed opiates are free from risk of addiction. Please do not put words in my mouth (or my keyboard, as the case may be).

[oevna]

Yep, fully agree with that as well. In the UK Any medical practitioner can prescribe heroin in the treatment of medical conditions, such as pain management, but doctors need a licence from the Home Office to prescribe it for treating addiction. Presentl, there are very few dctors who are licenced to do this. Ovena I guess, that you are from the States? Where Heroin prescribing is much more controlled than the UK, or am I making an assumption?

Mr. Toad,

Yes, I am from the United States. And your assumption is correct about heroin being controlled more in the US than the UK. It is banned completely in the US and so not used in hospitals at all, while it is used in hospitals in the UK (under the name diamorphine).

My mother is a retired anesthesiologist. Her opinion on the matter of heroin use in hospitals is that it is very useful for pain management, but that it is a shame that it has such a high abuse potential. It's a close trade off, and so it is not surprising that there are countries that choose to ban it, while others just heavily regulate it. Both are reasonable approaches. Hospitals in the US, for example, still used cocaine as a local anesthetic until recently, but it is obviously heavily regulated. I don't think it is strictly banned for use in hospitals (I am a little out of date on this subject), but there are now much better local anesthetics that have no abuse potential, so cocaine is either rarely proscribed nowadays, or never.

Edited January 19, 2009 by oevna

[oevna]

just stop what...?

Stop defending a dangerous activity.

so, in one of my friend center's someone comes in and say " I take smack"

do we the advice that they are a lost cause? kick them out, book the coffin

that they are now a "junkie"

a really demaning term

that is really not something I agree, should I tell them

that there is no hope that they, if not already will automatically become f-ed

No. How on earth did you interpret what I wrote to mean that? Now you are just trying to twist my argument into something that it is not. At this point I am convinced that you will say anything (true or not) to try to support your argument. I therefore can not take much of what you say seriously.

surely Sir, for all "practical purpose's" we should look a very closely at this person's

for example, what cause's them to take

how much? what are the best way's to prevent damage

Yes, it may be useful to take a look at a person's specific case, if it is different in some significant way from all other people in the world. A decision that should be made by doctors, not you and me. I don't know how you take this and conclude that heroin should be allowed for recreational use.

Recreational heroin use is clearly dangerous, but if somehow all of your friends represent some tiny fraction of the human race for whom recreational heroin use is harmless (highly unlikely), how on Earth can you conclude that it is safe for the population in general?

Here is an analogy: There are a small number of people who have been shown to be immune to AIDS (not immune to HIV infection, but their HIV infections don't progress to AIDS). Would you take this information and suggest that we stop educating the population on safe sex practices, just because this small percentage of the population are not at risk of developing AIDS? Of course not. That would be ridiculous.

You might say that this analogy doesn't hold up, because those people are still capable of spreading HIV infection to others who are not resistant to the virus, and are therefore still a risk to other people. Well, I would say that your friends who use heroin are a risk to other people if they are encouraging others to use it also. They seem to have convinced you that it is harmless, and it must be pretty good stuff, if one of them has been doing it since his time in the Vietnam war. So if your friends have their addictions under control (they are addicted, make no mistake about it), can you be assured that everyone else who they spread their ideas to and share their heroin with won't end up ruining their lives after becoming addicted to heroin? After all, if society says its harmless, why not do it?

Ok, I'll humor you for a moment and suppose that recreational heroin use is harmless to a small number of people. Even if it is harmless to those few, it is unnecessary. Why would anyone needlessly addict themselves to a drug, burdening themselves with a lifelong need to supply themselves with it, and building up a tolerance to it, making it less effective if there were a medical need to use opiates? (There is cross-tolerance between all opiates, FYI.) And how would a person know if they are one of the lucky few for whom it is "harmless," until they have tried it a few times? Perhaps enough times to get a "normal" person addicted, and then it's too late for the majority of the people who try it.

automatically prescribing methadone is not always the right road, in fact I think sometimes it truly is the bad road

you guy's seem to mix my wanting to tell people that one does not automatically ruin their lives and there are way's out and hope, and damage limitation equates to- come on, lets all try the needle , it is not that bad.." FXXX that, my English is not that the bad is it

I strongly object to the lost cause theory and to close the door on someone wanting a middle road

but if you think I somehow promote because I have seen people who have not messed up then either not my english, or something else

I also did not suggest prescribing methadone (nor did Mr. Toad; reread his post again if you need a reminder). I don't know why you think that. I mentioned methadone once in reference to patients who are recovering from heroin addiction, but I stated that I did not count that as being recovered. Here is my exact quote:

(by success I mean cessation of all recreational opiate use, so not counting lifelong methadone maintenance)

Your English is not all that great, but I am not criticizing you for your English. For all I know, it may be your second language, and it is a difficult language to learn. However, if English is your first language, then you could use some work on your punctuation, and you could try splitting up your text into paragraphs. Those two improvements would make your writing a whole lot easier to read.