Brit Faces Two Years In Thai Jail For Being 'rude'.

[Jingthing]

Does any one think Simon will plead not guilty at his court appearance ?

I would like to hear the immigration officer's justify their actions, but with a guilty plea we will never have a satisfactory end to this story.

Sure we would.

If he pleads guilty, then he admits to doing whatever he is accused of.

Surely a civil liberties juggernaut like him would never concede to pleading guilty unless he was absolutely guilty.

If he has any legal advise worth one satang they will tell him he is better off in the Thai system pleading guilty no matter what. I guess you think he is an idiot also.

[neverdie]

Obviously this gentleman knows what they are so it doesn't lead me to belive that he is a squeaky clean as he claims.

Having a saucy vocabulary is not a crime.

Well JT, that would depend on where you use that 'saucy vocabulary' wouldnt it?

[sriracha john]

Does any one think Simon will plead not guilty at his court appearance ?

I would like to hear the immigration officer's justify their actions, but with a guilty plea we will never have a satisfactory end to this story.

Sure we would.

If he pleads guilty, then he admits to doing whatever he is accused of.

Surely a civil liberties juggernaut like him would never concede to pleading guilty unless he was absolutely guilty.

If he has any legal advise worth one satang they will tell him he is better off in the Thai system pleading guilty no matter what. I guess you think he is an idiot also.

Not really. Just that after reading several of his blogs, I take him to be someone who has the moral fiber to champion the rights of the down-trodden and mistreated...to never admit guilt simply for convenience sake... an "all the way to the Supreme Court" sort of guy.

[neverdie]

Right but lets not go crazy and totally forget the sillyness of his "crimes" and "losing control". He shouted one sentence "I'm not a fuc_king idiot" and then immediately went looking for a real police officer to clear things up. Hardly the horrible behaviour so many of you have been and keep trying to pin on Simon. And I will ONCE AGAIN remind you that he did that minor outburst only after so much aggravation it truly appears he actually showed great restraint.

So Simon Says. Simon says alot of things, how do you know he's telling the truth?

How do you know he´s NOT telling the truth????

I wouldnt know either which way, just like everyone else here, having said that I know better than to listen to just one version.....especially that of the accused

[Jingthing]

Not really. Just that after reading several of his blogs, I take him to be someone who has the moral fiber to champion the rights of the down-trodden and mistreated...to never admit guilt simply for convenience sake... an "all the way to the Supreme Court" sort of guy.

That may be but I wouldn't underestimate what three weeks in the monkey house in a inhumanely crowded cell can do to a persons frame of mind.

[ClaytonSeymour]

What attitude?

The attitude clearly evident when reading his alleged version of events. Obvious to everyone except the PC Brigade, bleeding heart liberals, do-gooders etc. I guess it runs in the family as his so called relative, Superted, would also appear to have inherited this trait.

[pimfram]

What about the voice? why have they not said anything else?

and why did the thai immigration say they had the voice on tape? coincidence?

[neverdie]

What coffee? What are you talking about?! No REALLY what? Did you or did you not read the links about this case? I garauntee you did not which would lead to your ridiculous opinion since it is based on your imagination of what happened instead of reality.

Sabum, I can't believe how much you believe the accused person is actually telling the truth. Almost everything you have read has come directly from him. Has it ever dawned on you that perhaps hes bending the truth or completely full of <deleted>?

Your not one of these bleeding hearts that goes into the jails to see all the innocent people that ALSO CLAIM THEY DIDNT DO IT, are you?

Get real Sabum

[sriracha john]

Does any one think Simon will plead not guilty at his court appearance ?

I would like to hear the immigration officer's justify their actions, but with a guilty plea we will never have a satisfactory end to this story.

Sure we would.

If he pleads guilty, then he admits to doing whatever he is accused of.

Surely a civil liberties juggernaut like him would never concede to pleading guilty unless he was absolutely guilty.

I guess he's already admitted to doing what he's accused of, so a future guilty plea now would be expected.

"Simon Burrowes, 44, from Wembley, London, admitted that he swore at Immigration authorities, in an incident at Phuket Airport last January"

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/03/24...on_30098632.php

[GungaDin]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ & you believe The Nation?

[sriracha john]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ & you believe The Nation?

As equally as I believe Simon Burrowes.

[TheWalkingMan]

Wonder if the lawyers whispered in his ear something to the effect... "You've already had a 3-week taste of the prison here and it is my strong suggestion that you confess to whatever they say in order to get yourself out of the country. Of course we could fight it, but more than likely the judge will throw the book at you a lock you up for a year. Name your poison."

What would you do... Fight the good fight or confess and cut your losses...

TheWalkingMan

[TAWP]

Everyone knows that unless one is super-confident of getting off scot-free here, confessing to cut ones losses is often a good deal..sadely.

And yes, the prisons contains innocent people. It's perhaps the ratio we are arguing about?

[robee]

A BRITISH man is facing a two-year sentence in a hellish Thai prison for being 'rude' to an official.

Voice reader Simon Burrowes, from Wembley, north London, was ending a holiday with a friend when Thai authorities in Phuket airport detained him on January 31, preventing him from returning to the UK.

Immigration officials suspected Burrowes' passport was a forgery. Speaking to The Voice via phone from Thailand, Burrowes said: "A woman at immigration was looking at my passport and then handed it to the man behind her. I was ushered to sit down whilst he took out a magnifying glass and proceeded to check my passport for half an hour," he explained.

He was told that he was not getting on the plane and was taken to a detention centre, whilst his friend Matthew was able to fly back to the UK. Burrowes said: "I'm a black man so I'm used to getting hassle at airports, but I was shocked by this." For three weeks, the 44-year old was held with 126 men in a cramped prison cell.

"Thai prisons are notorious for being some of the worst. There is no privacy. You go to the toilet in the open and there is no toilet paper. There were guys in there that had scabies and were next to me," said Burrowes.

He contacted the British Consulate, who confirmed his passport was genuine. However, the disgruntled Brit claims that the Consulate should have done more, saying that they took long to react to his case.

"I was disgusted and beside myself. People talk of them [the British Consulate] like they are the cavalry. If you have issues abroad they come charging to help. But they didn't really help me," he fumed. Burrowes was later charged with 'rude and aggressive behaviour' towards an immigration officer, a claim he denies, and was released on £2,000 bail. He must remain in Thailand until his trial begins on April 26, and his lawyer has warned he could face a two-year jail sentence.

"I have to find some way to sustain myself financially while I am here. I went to Thailand to enjoy the land, learn the culture and spend some money. It's turned into a nightmare," he said. Burrowes is hoping that he will soon be able to fly back to the UK.

"If they find me guilty, who knows what will happen. I met people in prison who are doing five years for having two spliffs on them. It's very difficult to hold yourself up in a Thai prison. I feel very bitter about what has happened," he said. A spokesman for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in London told The Voice they are

looking into the case.

Link to story here.

is this for real?

[Jingthing]

Wonder if the lawyers whispered in his ear something to the effect... "You've already had a 3-week taste of the prison here and it is my strong suggestion that you confess to whatever they say in order to get yourself out of the country. Of course we could fight it, but more than likely the judge will throw the book at you a lock you up for a year. Name your poison."

What would you do... Fight the good fight or confess and cut your losses...

TheWalkingMan

Pleading guilty often results in a more lenient sentence. It is no guarantee whatsoever of NO sentence!

[Blue2]

It is quite unbelievable what some posters have written on this thread from slandering Simon's family (low way to go!) to the comments about his guilt, based on.... what evidence.

Lets not lose sight of the facts. Simon was falsely accused of traveling on a false passport and put in jail not detained in a detention centre until the Thai authorities could confirm his travel documents, but jailed. There is a principle that was not observed, innocent until proven guilty.

To his credit he has admitted to using the f word in earshot of Thai immigration and was secondly charged with being rude to a Thai immigration officer, much later after, the initial allegation was shown to be false.

The allegation of being rude to an immigration officer, means that the Thai authorities are saying that the f word used was said to the official, which means that that they also have to prove that it was his intention to insult the official.

With regard to the poster, who has written about do-gooders, liberals etc. A little bit of world history to put your comments in prospective.

Liberal and PC laws, standards and principles have in pre-modern times:-

.removed children from the factory floor

.introduced ages of consent

.protect children from sexual exploitation(pedophiles, traffickers)

.introduction of welfare, based on employee and state contributions from taxes.

.independence of law, state and religion

.freedom from discrimination on the grounds of race, sex, gender etc.

.the right to vote based on one man one vote rather than a qualifying condition such as owning property.

.employee pensions

.dispute arbitration

.introduction of wages and salary

.freedom of movement so that you are no loger tied to the land

.the right to free representation when you are accused of an offence

.accountability for police and people employed by the state.

.freedom of settlement, movement, through marriage/ relationship.

.the right to a free education.

.the right to own land and property.

This is a very short list, I sincerely believe that most if not every poster on this forum has personally benefited from pc and so called liberal laws, as have their parents and grandparents.

Equally some of the harsh punishments meted out in pre modern times have been put to an end such as transportation for minor offences.

Simon's case demonstrates that anyone of you are at risk of arbitrary arrest, and detention in Thailand, and before someone posts that paying a corrupt official is the correct thing to do. How is this a good thing for the long term future and safety of yourselves and your families where and if you have chosen to settle in Thailand.

[Chopper]

There is a principle that was not observed, innocent until proven guilty.

I am not disagreeing with the content of your post per say but in Thailand I think in a court of law (oxymoron I know) you are guilty until proven innocent.

[ClaytonSeymour]

It is quite unbelievable what some posters have written on this thread from slandering Simon's family (low way to go!) to the comments about his guilt, based on.... what evidence.

Lets not lose sight of the facts. Simon was falsely accused of traveling on a false passport and put in jail not detained in a detention centre until the Thai authorities could confirm his travel documents, but jailed. There is a principle that was not observed, innocent until proven guilty.

To his credit he has admitted to using the f word in earshot of Thai immigration and was secondly charged with being rude to a Thai immigration officer, much later after, the initial allegation was shown to be false.

The allegation of being rude to an immigration officer, means that the Thai authorities are saying that the f word used was said to the official, which means that that they also have to prove that it was his intention to insult the official.

With regard to the poster, who has written about do-gooders, liberals etc. A little bit of world history to put your comments in prospective.

Liberal and PC laws, standards and principles have in pre-modern times:-

.removed children from the factory floor

.introduced ages of consent

.protect children from sexual exploitation(pedophiles, traffickers)

.introduction of welfare, based on employee and state contributions from taxes.

.independence of law, state and religion

.freedom from discrimination on the grounds of race, sex, gender etc.

.the right to vote based on one man one vote rather than a qualifying condition such as owning property.

.employee pensions

.dispute arbitration

.introduction of wages and salary

.freedom of movement so that you are no loger tied to the land

.the right to free representation when you are accused of an offence

.accountability for police and people employed by the state.

.freedom of settlement, movement, through marriage/ relationship.

.the right to a free education.

.the right to own land and property.

This is a very short list, I sincerely believe that most if not every poster on this forum has personally benefited from pc and so called liberal laws, as have their parents and grandparents.

Equally some of the harsh punishments meted out in pre modern times have been put to an end such as transportation for minor offences.

Simon's case demonstrates that anyone of you are at risk of arbitrary arrest, and detention in Thailand, and before someone posts that paying a corrupt official is the correct thing to do. How is this a good thing for the long term future and safety of yourselves and your families where and if you have chosen to settle in Thailand.

New member, 5 posts, all on this topic - what's your personal interest? Or, as suggested by the PC brigade re: coady, I'll suggest that you could be one of the bleeding heart liberals defending Simon Burrowes using a different name.

It's very easy easy to cherry pick a list of 'successes' for liberals & do gooders - I could quite easily counter it with a list of negatives. including examples where victims have been failed by weak justice systems, brought about by bleeding heart liberals. Such people, examples of which are to be found in this thread, have gone too far & quite frankly - I haven't got time for them.

[Blue2]

There is a principle that was not observed, innocent until proven guilty.

I am not disagreeing with the content of your post per say but in Thailand I think in a court of law (oxymoron I know) you are guilty until proven innocent.

Chopper, that's very unfortunate for Thai's, expats and anyone who falls foul of Thai authorities.

[ClaytonSeymour]

I am not disagreeing with the content of your post per say but in Thailand I think in a court of law (oxymoron I know) you are guilty until proven innocent.

The justice systems of many countries apply guilty until proven innocent. There's an easy solution for expats & travellers who are uncomfortable with this.

[Chopper]

Correct. What about Due process though?

[neverdie]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ & you believe The Nation?

You know how much I dislike the media......but odds on they probably provide more accurate details that the 'Accused Person' ....ITS A NO BRAINER

[Blue2]

New member, 5 posts, all on this topic - what's your personal interest? Or, as suggested by the PC brigade re: coady, I'll suggest that you could be one of the bleeding heart liberals defending Simon Burrowes using a different name.

It's very easy easy to cherry pick a list of 'successes' for liberals & do gooders - I could quite easily counter it with a list of negatives. including examples where victims have been failed by weak justice systems, brought about by bleeding heart liberals. Such people, examples of which are to be found in this thread, have gone too far & quite frankly - I haven't got time for them.

Dear ClaytonSeymour,

tsk tsk,

Its quite clear to everyone where you stand on this matter, imagine 5 posts all on the same subject, and my crime having an interest, grow up, most people post on forums because there interest has been peaked by what is being discussed.

"examples where victims have been failed by weak justice systems" is this finally a chink of light, Simon Burrowes weak justice system comes to mind.

[Sabum]

What coffee? What are you talking about?! No REALLY what? Did you or did you not read the links about this case? I garauntee you did not which would lead to your ridiculous opinion since it is based on your imagination of what happened instead of reality.

Sabum, I can't believe how much you believe the accused person is actually telling the truth. Almost everything you have read has come directly from him. Has it ever dawned on you that perhaps hes bending the truth or completely full of <deleted>?

Your not one of these bleeding hearts that goes into the jails to see all the innocent people that ALSO CLAIM THEY DIDNT DO IT, are you?

Get real Sabum

Interesting that they delete my post but leave the counter attacks to it... sometimes I wonder if this forum could be any more obvious.

I HATE liberals, I can't stand they thought of "rehabilitation" for pedophiles, rapists and brutal murderers. I want those people off the face of my planet with no second chance. No I am certainly NOT one of those. But in a situation like this it is blatantly obvious that JUSTICE and righteousness are being sorely abused. Then I want to speak out on it. The rest of you are acting like Simon actually did something terrible, he simply responded like any human being when provoked beyond reasonable levels. He lost his temper and swore out loud. OH NOES! HANG THE BASTAGE. For the love of god keep it in perspective. Saying he deserves any kind of imprisonment for something so ridiculous when murderers and rapists walk free is OUTRAGEOUS and just plain wrong. Most of you would be do better to focus your energies on the real criminals that commit atrocities in front of witnesses but never get a day in jail here. But no.... gang up on the foreigner for a truly minor infraction and call for years imprisonment..... that makes so much more sense.

[bungy007]

It is quite unbelievable what some posters have written on this thread from slandering Simon's family (low way to go!) to the comments about his guilt, based on.... what evidence.

Lets not lose sight of the facts. Simon was falsely accused of traveling on a false passport and put in jail not detained in a detention centre until the Thai authorities could confirm his travel documents, but jailed. There is a principle that was not observed, innocent until proven guilty.

To his credit he has admitted to using the f word in earshot of Thai immigration and was secondly charged with being rude to a Thai immigration officer, much later after, the initial allegation was shown to be false.

The allegation of being rude to an immigration officer, means that the Thai authorities are saying that the f word used was said to the official, which means that that they also have to prove that it was his intention to insult the official.

With regard to the poster, who has written about do-gooders, liberals etc. A little bit of world history to put your comments in prospective.

Liberal and PC laws, standards and principles have in pre-modern times:-

.removed children from the factory floor

.introduced ages of consent

.protect children from sexual exploitation(pedophiles, traffickers)

.introduction of welfare, based on employee and state contributions from taxes.

.independence of law, state and religion

.freedom from discrimination on the grounds of race, sex, gender etc.

.the right to vote based on one man one vote rather than a qualifying condition such as owning property.

.employee pensions

.dispute arbitration

.introduction of wages and salary

.freedom of movement so that you are no loger tied to the land

.the right to free representation when you are accused of an offence

.accountability for police and people employed by the state.

.freedom of settlement, movement, through marriage/ relationship.

.the right to a free education.

.the right to own land and property.

This is a very short list, I sincerely believe that most if not every poster on this forum has personally benefited from pc and so called liberal laws, as have their parents and grandparents.

Equally some of the harsh punishments meted out in pre modern times have been put to an end such as transportation for minor offences.

Simon's case demonstrates that anyone of you are at risk of arbitrary arrest, and detention in Thailand, and before someone posts that paying a corrupt official is the correct thing to do. How is this a good thing for the long term future and safety of yourselves and your families where and if you have chosen to settle in Thailand.

New member, 5 posts, all on this topic - what's your personal interest? Or, as suggested by the PC brigade re: coady, I'll suggest that you could be one of the bleeding heart liberals defending Simon Burrowes using a different name.

It's very easy easy to cherry pick a list of 'successes' for liberals & do gooders - I could quite easily counter it with a list of negatives. including examples where victims have been failed by weak justice systems, brought about by bleeding heart liberals. Such people, examples of which are to be found in this thread, have gone too far & quite frankly - I haven't got time for them.

Oh dear! A bit strong I think! Here's a guy that is looking at the wrong end of third world justice - or lack of in this case and you can't find it in your heart to get behind him on this? What can you mean by 'bleeding heart liberals' when you try to catagorise those of us that see the travesty of injustice unfold in this scenario?

I think we all agree that it is not the smartest move to make by using the 'F' word when around a brown shirt gangster - especially if he is looking to save face from cocking up in the first place. Still, the penalty is ridiculouse when you think of Mu Ham still riding around in his Benz after killing a Thai citizen in it when he had his hissy fit. Or Chalerm Yumbamrung's kid who shot an off duty cop to death in a pub for treading on his foot during his hissy fit. Justice was also never served here and he now stroll's around the capital bearing the title of Mr. Happy Toilet! So given the scale of things, I think you need to be a bit more supportive to your fellow Non-Thai who is getting the right regal shaft!

[neverdie]

What coffee? What are you talking about?! No REALLY what? Did you or did you not read the links about this case? I garauntee you did not which would lead to your ridiculous opinion since it is based on your imagination of what happened instead of reality.

Sabum, I can't believe how much you believe the accused person is actually telling the truth. Almost everything you have read has come directly from him. Has it ever dawned on you that perhaps hes bending the truth or completely full of <deleted>?

Your not one of these bleeding hearts that goes into the jails to see all the innocent people that ALSO CLAIM THEY DIDNT DO IT, are you?

Get real Sabum

Interesting that they delete my post but leave the counter attacks to it... sometimes I wonder if this forum could be any more obvious.

I HATE liberals, I can't stand they thought of "rehabilitation" for pedophiles, rapists and brutal murderers. I want those people off the face of my planet with no second chance. No I am certainly NOT one of those. But in a situation like this it is blatantly obvious that JUSTICE and righteousness are being sorely abused. Then I want to speak out on it. The rest of you are acting like Simon actually did something terrible, he simply responded like any human being when provoked beyond reasonable levels. He lost his temper and swore out loud. OH NOES! HANG THE BASTAGE. For the love of god keep it in perspective. Saying he deserves any kind of imprisonment for something so ridiculous when murderers and rapists walk free is OUTRAGEOUS and just plain wrong. Most of you would be do better to focus your energies on the real criminals that commit atrocities in front of witnesses but never get a day in jail here. But no.... gang up on the foreigner for a truly minor infraction and call for years imprisonment..... that makes so much more sense.

Sabum, We keep going around in circles , I know you see that too. Let me put it this way.

I was not there.

You were not there?

I did not hear what Simon said.

You did not hear what Simon said?

Simon has naturally posted on his facebook page in his own defence, he is the accused person & accused persons often have the ability to tell untruths. This may or MAY NOT be the case, but to simply take Simons word for everything, given that you don't know him, MAY BE a little foolish.

On the flip side, it is possible that you are correct & something may have gone adrift on the prosecution side.

The truth to this matter will be left to the determination of the court....where it should be.

PS: I already knew you were not a bleeding heart.....but you had me worried for a minute that someone may have dragged you over to the darkside.

[david96]

Here are two conflicting statements.

Mr Burrowes said a British consular official visited him in jail to inform him his passport - which was issued at a consulate in Australia - was verified as genuine, and there was a "one in 1000 glitch".

A spokesman for the British embassy in Bangkok would not discuss the case, but said no officials at any time said Mr Burrowes's passport was not valid, or admitted to any "glitches".

Which one would you believe?

Source; http://www.smh.com.au/world/issued-in-aust...jv.html?page=-1

[GungaDin]

SB. the FCO are in damage limitation mode. Do you think the FCO would admit anything!

[PhilHarries]

SB. the FCO are in damage limitation mode. Do you think the FCO would admit anything!

and don't forget we are not listening to either Mr Burrowes nor the embassy spokesman uttering the words.

We are reading the words as noted down and reproduced by a news reporter. Of course these guys never misquote anyone do they?

[Blue2]

Here are two conflicting statements.

Mr Burrowes said a British consular official visited him in jail to inform him his passport - which was issued at a consulate in Australia - was verified as genuine, and there was a "one in 1000 glitch".

A spokesman for the British embassy in Bangkok would not discuss the case, but said no officials at any time said Mr Burrowes's passport was not valid, or admitted to any "glitches".

Which one would you believe?

Source; http://www.smh.com.au/world/issued-in-aust...jv.html?page=-1

David96, I am not entirely clear on the points you are making.

Representatives of the Thai diplomatic mission visited Simon in jail to confirm that his passport was valid.

Representatives of the Thai diplomatic mission said at no time did they tell Thai immigration that the passport was not valid.

can you expand on this?

Below is some detail between Andrew Drummond and the FCO by email taken from his blog

<h3 class="entry-title">Of an Embassy and Brits in the 'sh*t' - Blog</h3> Ok I am going with part of your statement and that the Embassy has no record of any official saying ' It was a one in a thousand glitch' and 'I empathise with your self righteousness'. But I will hold any story for British national papers until after 5 pm. This story may not appear anywhere of course but it scheduled for a daily run. I told MoS I cd not hold for a week.

Maybe honesty is the best policy. Its not a big deal (except of course for the victim) in the general scheme of things -don't help to make it one! Rgds AD

The Embassy confirmed that they have "no record" of any official saying "It was a one in a thousand glitch" which is a long way far removed from saying we did not say that or "admitting to any glitches".

The fact that Mr Burrowes has chosen to speak to you about the details of his case does not mean that we are free to do so. Our obligation to respect the confidentiality of our customers applies regardless of what information the customer chooses to make public. London have agreed that in this case we could say the following without breaching these obligations.

The validity of Mr Burrowes passport was resolved within three working days. We proceeded to check the validity of the passport immediately upon being informed by the police of his arrest on the Friday. At no point did the embassy tell anyone involved that the passport was false. The diplomatic mission that issued the passport replied to confirm the passport's validity the following Tuesday. We then informed the police and they dropped that charge.

Simon was informed of this after he had spent 11 days in a Thai jail.