Can Profound “personal Experience” Be Triggered By Artificial Means & Therefore An Illusion?

[rockyysdt]

Due to illness my practice has not progressed at the pace I would have liked over recent time.

Currently a creature of my"ego", I fill the void by learning about Buddhist practice and network to hone my knowledge.

One beauty of Buddha's teachings includes open mindedness and discovery through "self experience".

I've recently come across research which appears to discount Buddhism & the validity of our goals which may be illusion.

Experiments performed on the brain by Dr. Michael Persinger suggest that electrically suppressing specific brain waves can simulate experiences such as suppression of the "self", unity with infinity, & replication of Tibetan monks and Franciscan nuns' experiences, identical to those resulting from years of meditative practice.

These experiments were measured using SPECT (Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography) which is similar to CAT and MRI, to measure the location and frequency of the brain waves in involved.

Scott Bidstrum claims that the most persuasive tool used by Buddhists to prove the validity of their practice, "personal experience", can be explained and simulated through non metaphysical means.

I'm not anti Buddhist but travel with a skeptical mind.

If profound experiences can be triggered by artificial means, how will we be able to discriminate between enlightenment & illusion?

Reference:

http://www.bidstrup.com/mystic.htm

Edited March 22, 2009 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

stop making the same mistake as all western medical science...... the mind (or whatever essential essence you call it, spirit, self, etc.) is not located in the brain.......

[rockyysdt]

stop making the same mistake as all western medical science...... the mind (or whatever essential essence you call it, spirit, self, etc.) is not located in the brain.

Isn't this theoretical until proven, and the way to prove it is by "personal experience", which is tricky because our brain seems to give similar experiences such as suppression of the "self", unity with infinity, & replication of Tibetan monks and Franciscan nuns' experiences, identical to those resulting from years of meditative practice.

Whether it be a function of the brain or not, If you experience suppression of the "self" & unity with infinity how can you discriminate between illusion and reality?

Edited March 22, 2009 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

well your theory is also theoretical until proven.....

Edited March 22, 2009 by fabianfred

[Brucenkhamen]

You've really got to make your own mind if you want to believe this guy then believe him, nobody is forcing you to do otherwise.

After all do you have any "direct experience" that can prove his hypotheses one way or the other? If not you have to go by what you read in his book, and you know what the Buddha said about that.

If he isn't offering an alternative way out of the cycle of suffering though it sort of puts you back at square one doesn't it?

[rockyysdt]

well your theory is also theoretical until proven.....

You misunderstand me FF.

This isn't my theory.

The author does raise concerns which might need further investigation.

[rockyysdt]

You've really got to make your own mind if you want to believe this guy then believe him, nobody is forcing you to do otherwise.

I don't want to believe him, but my thoughts tell me I need to maintain an open mind.

After all do you have any "direct experience" that can prove his hypotheses one way or the other? If not you have to go by what you read in his book, and you know what the Buddha said about that. If he isn't offering an alternative way out of the cycle of suffering though it sort of puts you back at square one doesn't it?

Aren't there many things in our world which we don't have personal direct experience with, but are known and accepted as fact?

Shouldn't Buddhists, many committed to life long practices, atleast examine the validity of his findings and/or establish whether they are documented as verifiable scientific outcomes?

My ego wants nothing more than to find the Buddha's teachings are fact and to succeed on my path towards enlightenment.

[chutai]

Whilst not by artificial means , the woman in the video (below) certainly gained some profound realisations whist suffering a stroke.

[rockyysdt]

Whilst not by artificial means , the woman in the video (below) certainly gained some profound realisations whist suffering a stroke.

Thanks chutai.

Very inspiring.

Edited March 23, 2009 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

I don't want to believe him, but my thoughts tell me I need to maintain an open mind.

Good policy.

Aren't there many things in our world which we don't have personal direct experience with, but are known and accepted as fact?

Yes there are, but usually we have more to go on than the results of one mans experiments.

Shouldn't Buddhists, many committed to life long practices, atleast examine the validity of his findings and/or establish whether they are documented as verifiable scientific outcomes?

I don't have enough time in the day to do the things I want to do as it is let alone to verify each and every claim made about life the universe and everything, if you have the time though please share your findings with the rest of us as this kind of thing is interesting.

Now if, by suppressing brainwaves, he does find a way to gain freedom from suffering in a similar way or degree to which I've gained over the last few years of practice then I'd suggest he bottle it and sell it, I'd be willing to invest because it would be a darn site easier.

I suspect however that he's probably been able to simulate a meditative state, while I'm sure that's pleasant for the subject as any state of concentration is in and of itself it can't lead to wisdom (as the subject won't have gone through the necessary process to achieve that state).

[rockyysdt]

Yes there are, but usually we have more to go on than the results of one mans experiments.

lf you have the time though please share your findings with the rest of us as this kind of thing is interesting.

Using chutais link, based on the brain scientists experience when her left hemisphere shut down, I suspect Dr. Michael Persinger's experiments may suggest that the right brain hemisphere is our connection with nibbana and that he may have stumbled on a technique to artificially induce and/or accelerate the meditative state.

If you were hurled into enlightenment, wouldn't wisdom be automatic in such a state?

Edited March 23, 2009 by rockyysdt

[sabaijai]

One might say the distinction between real and artificial, and between reality and illusion, is itself artificial and illusory. In other words, even if Buddhist practice only stimulates, or otherwise modifies, brain matter to reduce suffering, achieve peace, wisdom, compassion, etc, it's a lot easier and presumably safer than surgery.

What these studies seem to affirm is that there is no identifiable self, rather our sense of self is conditioned (by brain configuration, chemical interference, etc). So in a sense they don't refute Buddhist psychology as much as they confirm certain aspects of the latter.

[fabianfred]

Nirvana cannot be attained by accident.... only effort

[junkofdavid2]

Interesting read from the website link.

I agree that we should keep an open mind and not be overly "defensive" about our current beliefs, like some people on this thread.

Sorry guys, but if your "beliefs" are maintained by intentionally being dismissive about what could be logical studies, then your beliefs are NOT based on faith... they're based on LIES.

However, in response to the study of Dr. Persinger which I read through the link of the OP, all I can say is that while Dr. Persinger was able to "replicate" a similar or even identical "experience" using scientific means, this does not at all mean that other people's "god experiences" were false. It just means that Persinger was able to replicate a similar "god" experience, that's all.

To illustrate:

You ride a real fighter jet doing stunts and you experience the sensation of riding in the jet doing stunts. You then tell your kid about it.

Your kid eventually rides a fighter jet "simulator" (i.e. using technology) and experiences the same "sensation".

Your kid then tells you, "Dad, your experience never happened and you never actually rode a fighter jet. It's false. I know because I was able to feel the same sensation you felt through a technological simulator."

Get the drift?

Therefore, in the case of mystics, "God" (or whoever) may have activated the left lobe or right lobe or whatever (as in the case of Dr. Persinger) when these people were communicating with God... and therefore the same experience.

Point to ponder on...

Edited March 24, 2009 by junkofdavid2

[SeerObserver]

I suspect however that he's probably been able to simulate a meditative state, while I'm sure that's pleasant for the subject as any state of concentration is in and of itself it can't lead to wisdom (as the subject won't have gone through the necessary process to achieve that state).

This is an excellent distinction to make. There are many new-age devices and meditation aids available. Some work, while others aren't worth the paper their ads are printed on.

What many forget is that they are merely supplements. They may aid your meditation, but this is not like the matrix. These are not blue pills you can take which will cause you to awaken to the reality of things. Feelings of euphoria are commonly reported after use of meditation aids. Other sensations may be replicated as well. But as Brucenkhamen says, insight and observations are not replicated by these. The wisdom gained from mindfulness of various things is not implanted by these. If that were the case, I agree that this would be one heck of a seller.

[rockyysdt]

To illustrate:

You ride a real fighter jet doing stunts and you experience the sensation of riding in the jet doing stunts. You then tell your kid about it.

Your kid eventually rides a fighter jet "simulator" (i.e. using technology) and experiences the same "sensation".

Your kid then tells you, "Dad, your experience never happened and you never actually rode a fighter jet. It's false. I know because I was able to feel the same sensation you felt through a technological simulator."

Get the drift?

Your illustration misses an important point which was the initial concern.

You know that jets exist and that your stunt experience was real. On the other hand, and the Buddha did advocate "personal experience", all of us who are short of nibanna don't know if it's real.

[rockyysdt]

What many forget is that they are merely supplements. They may aid your meditation, but this is not like the matrix. These are not blue pills you can take which will cause you to awaken to the reality of things. Feelings of euphoria are commonly reported after use of meditation aids. Other sensations may be replicated as well. But as Brucenkhamen says, insight and observations are not replicated by these. The wisdom gained from mindfulness of various things is not implanted by these. If that were the case, I agree that this would be one heck of a seller.

Why limit or discount science SeerObserver?

If through scientific endeavour mankind stumbles on a way of triggering reconnection with reality (nibanna) rather than by a lifetime of practice then this would be an evolutionary step.

The Buddha became enlightened using technology available to him at the time.

This subject could be fantasy, but keeping an open mind has exciting possibilities for us all.

[SeerObserver]

Why limit or discount science SeerObserver?

If through scientific endeavour mankind stumbles on a way of triggering reconnection with reality (nibanna) rather than by a lifetime of practice then this would be an evolutionary step.

The Buddha became enlightened using technology available to him at the time.

This subject could be fantasy, but keeping an open mind has exciting possibilities for us all.

Science as a whole was not discounted in my previous post. It was more in reference to current science/meditation aids and more specifically those that are known to me at this time. So far, nothing I am aware of implants true wisdom and awareness in and of itself. All the aids I know of at the moment produce certain sensations, temporary calms, etc. Like was said, if something were able to implant true wisdom and awareness, it would be a heck of a seller.

Interesting point you mention...care to expound on the point of the Buddha using available technology? I'm not sure I've come across what you're referring to, or if so it was not referred to in that manner.

[SeerObserver]

stop making the same mistake as all western medical science...... the mind (or whatever essential essence you call it, spirit, self, etc.) is not located in the brain.......

Please expound on this point a bit more. This is an interesting concept that I've been meaning to better my understanding of for some time.

[fabianfred]

Most asian religions place the self in the location of the heart rather than the brain.

My teacher...Supawan Green expands on this in several of her books

http://www.supawangreen.in.th/indexeng.html

I will try to find the passages for you.......

She says that we all have six senses...not five....and the sixth sense is the observer when we practise mindfulness (vipassana)

I like to compare the body with the computer...and the brain is the CPU/memory....but none of it works without the electricity (mind, being, self)

[fabianfred]

Understanding the 6th sense

Objectivity

Intellectual people adore scientific study and objectivity. The recognition and understanding of any new discovery must be gained in an objective manner. This involves using the basic five senses along with the sense extensions, e.g. tools such as microscopes, telescopes, hearing-aids, to view and observe a case study until we realize the nature of the phenomena before making a conclusion. This objectivity is the means for gaining first-hand experience and the subsequent intellectual knowledge which is known as ‘research’. This method of gaining knowledge is much more solid and reliable than philosophical knowledge in which the method is initially based on pure thinking (using Jerry) before reaching a conclusion, and it doesn’t always work.

For instance, Karl Marx’s and Frederick Engels’ socialist society sounded very ideal in bringing equality to people of all classes but once their ideology was put into practice and developed into a communist society, it took 30 years to find out that their grand philosophical concept could not work in real life – not to mention the great loss of lives and the unnecessary suffering thrust upon humanity during the process of class-struggle while building such an ideal society.

The philosophers had totally overlooked the crucial variable factor of a ‘human mind’. No matter how perfect the ideology is in one’s head, such idealism has to be managed by humans-people whose minds – apart from being complex – have different degrees of greed, anger, delusion and ego. Unfortunately, ego doesn’t mix well with power especially the almighty political power. Finally, Karl Marx’s utopian dream had instead created political monsters and world-class murderers e.g. Stalin, Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot, people responsible for massive human suffering and death. This could have been avoided had the philosophers not promoted such an ideology at the first place. Those events were hard evidence that absolute (political) power corrupts absolutely. It is hardly a surprise because even a bank clerk – once being promoted to be a bank manager – can easily enjoy and get used to his/her new power. The abuse of one’s power in all levels is quite normal in humans. This destructive nature in humans’ minds unfortunately hasn’t yet been studied and explained.

Nevertheless, Albert Einstein fully supported a reliable process for gaining knowledge as the great man said: “Experience is the source of knowledge”. This is the main reason why science is more successful and widely recognized than philosophy.

So, I hope you agree with the world class physicist that experience is indeed the source of knowledge gain, knowledge which begins with using the five senses. I hope you can also see that the nature of the human mind, which is responsible for many human tragedies, is badly needing to be examined and clarified with the hope that we can prevent further human catastrophe brought upon by self-absorbed politicians.

When it comes to studying the nature of the minds, thoughts, memories and feelings, the precise question I want to pose is, How exactly can you study all these mental natures in an objective manner? Which of your five senses do you use to observe your mental activities before making a conclusion so that you can offer a subsequent cure for your mental patients? Have you ever asked yourself this simple but vital question?

Well, to cut short the debates, I want to put forward my view by saying that the world is in this mess because science hasn’t yet tackled the secret of human minds because it does not know how to use the existing 6th sense.

The Buddha states humans have six senses

As far as human senses are concerned, the Buddha is the only person on earth who confidently proclaimed that man is a being with six senses and not five. This is not an additional sense we develop later in life, but a normal sense that we all have since birth and it functions in the same way we use our eyes, ears, nose, tongue and skin. Although it has been known from the Buddha’s teaching for 25 centuries, it has never been officially recognized by the intellectual world, not even today!

Without our senses, there wouldn’t be any experience. Experience is the prime source of knowledge and knowledge is the real power, the backbone of our human civilization. For these reasons, it is hugely important that we must understand our senses: the basic tools for global development and our long lasting peace.

Every sense corresponds to its own sense object

Every sense corresponds only to its own sense objects. Eyes correspond to sights, ears relate to sounds, the nose matches with smells, the tongue connects to tastes, the skin links with all touches. We cannot use our eyes to perceive sound; neither can we use our tongues to perceive sights nor smells. Should we be born with an extra eye on our forehead, that additional eye is still restricted to know sights only. It cannot cross-perceive. Every sense can only perceive its own sense objects.

Sense extension

Our technological advancements can only extend the use of each sense. For instance, the eyes can perceive sights within your viewing range; you cannot see any objects too far away or too small. Therefore we extend the power of our perception, such as the ability of our eyesight, by making binoculars and telescopes to allow us to view objects much further away. We build powerful lenses enabling us to see more details of the moon, planets in our solar system and even stars in the outer realm of our galaxy. This achievement has made our space program possible. We build microscopes so that we can see the much smaller objects that we cannot see with our naked eyes. This helps our medical science to progress steadily and come up with miraculous cures. We can also extend the power of our listening by building the gadgets that allow us to hear more sounds like amplifiers and loud-speakers.

Nevertheless, it doesn’t mean that we can use our extended tools to cross-perceive sense objects. No matter how clever we are in being able to extend our eyesight, the bottom line is we cannot use our eyes to perceive sounds or smells or tastes or knowing the texture of materials. Our eyesight, no matter how powerful it is, is strictly used to view objects only and nothing else.

Rephrasing

There is actually a wide range of day-to-day experience that has been introduced into our lives without using the five senses. When you have a toothache or headache, have you ever asked yourself, Which five senses perceives those pains? When you close your eyes, you can still perceive the rhythm of your hand-movements and breath, but which sense exactly do you use to view them?

Your answer is very likely on the line of you are ‘sensing’ those experiences. In other words, you want to say that you are using your mental sense, or your 6th sense, to perceive those daily events, don’t you? Should I replace the word ‘the 6th sense’ with the term ‘mental eyes’ and the term ‘sensing’ with the phrase ‘using your mental eye’ instead? It might be clearer. By rephrasing all those words, you end up having a pair of physical eyes to explore the external world of sight and you also have a pair of mental eyes to explore your inner world of thoughts, memories, imaginations, feelings and emotions.

Let’s explore

You can investigate the existence of your 6th sense or mental eyes by closing your two naked eyes first, then noting that your mental eyes are at the same location as your physical eyes but this time, you are looking inwardly into your mind or your inner world. With this pair of mental eyes, you will be able to explore your inner-sights which include thoughts, memories, imaginations and feelings.

In normal circumstances, you never see your own eyes because you are using them, unless you look at yourself in the mirror. Your two mental eyes are of a formless nature and you are constantly using them, so you have even more reason for not seeing them. So please don’t try to look for your mental eyes; you’ll never find them. If you do that, it means that you treat your mental eyes as the observed/the object and not the observer/the subject.

Using your mental eyes

I want you to prove for yourself that you have been using your 6th sense or mental eyes from day one. So please read the following instructions until you understand, and put this into practice right away. Here they are:

1) Please breathe deeply, then close your physical eyes and use your mental eyes to view your breathing. Make it very clear that the mental eyes are the observers and the breaths are the observed. View your breath for a good 5 – 10 minutes.

2) Your eyes remain closed. Please smack your hand very hard until it hurts and use your mental eyes to look at the pain in your hand. Keep on looking at the pains until they disappear in front of your mental eyes. Then, smack your hands again and follow the process 3 times until you are clear that your mental eyes are the observers and the pains in your hand are the observed.

3) Your eyes remain closed. Breathe normally. Then, move your hand or hands up and down slowly like the Tai chi movements. Use your mental eyes to follow the flow of your hand-movements. Make it very clear that your mental eyes are the viewers and the rhythms of your hand-movements are the viewed. Do this for another 5-10 minutes.

When you have done the above drill, you will see that your breath, pain and hand-movements cannot be perceived by your five senses; they are the direct sense objects to your mental eyes. So are your thoughts, memories and feelings. Can you see that you have been using your 6th sense from day one? Yet, we don’t know because our knowledge is too ambiguous. By using these simple words, I hope you will have a clear perspective as to how to perceive your inner world – the source of happiness and unhappiness.

The four foundations of mindfulness

I hope you have heard of this well-known Buddhist practice, sometime known as vipassana. It is a form of meditation practiced by millions of Buddhists. This practice is the exact method of how one uses the mental eyes to view one’s inner-sight - thoughts, memories and feelings, which become happiness and pain. This is also the initial step in learning about your mental problems objectively.

Let’s break up the word ‘vipassana’ and you will see the literal meaning.

Vi means overall, all round, thorough. Pasana means viewing.Vipassana means viewing the inner-sight thoroughly. This is the only part of the real science of Buddhism.

To practice vipassana is to use the mental eyes as the observer to thoroughly view the inner sights as the observed – a scientific process which occurs due to having a constant observation. The task of a vipassana practitioner is to constantly (at every waking moment) make an inner observation of how thoughts, memories and feelings are functioning. Through a long period of making such inner observations, the practitioner will gradually gain insight (inner-sight), meaning wisdom. The sharing of one’s wisdom – results from vipassana practice – is not necessarily understood by the listeners. For best results, everyone must engage one’s own inner-observation themselves and develop their own wisdom.

Only through this rational approach, will you be able to explore your inner world objectively. I am afraid you cannot do it in any other way. This is the reason why the four foundations of mindfulness remain popular even today, because all through the history of Buddhism, there have been people who have engaged in the practice and found the truth of how the mind works, in this scientific way, through vipassana. So they kept on teaching this piece of good news just like I am doing now.

My invention

I coined an alternative phrase for vipassana as “bringing the mental self back home” and use Tai chi qi gong as a non-religious means for guiding my students to explore into their inner world. To help my students understand this difficult oriental concept further, I have brought in some universal cartoon characters to represent certain mental functions. This is also because the word ‘mind’ is too vague or general as far as the study of the mental nature is concerned. The Buddha’s wisdom clearly stated that the mind is made up of four formless entities. I therefore use Tom, the cat to symbolize the mental self with the mental eyes and Jerry, the mouse, characterizes thoughts, memories and feelings. By using the symbolism of Tom and Jerry, the four mental formless entities are covered. You will often come across Tom and Jerry in my retreats and books.

Through my guidance and with the help of the toy-figures, students will be guided to locate their mental eyes and learn to use them to view their thoughts, memories and feelings. Basically, they are trained to use Tom to catch Jerry. Through the practice of “bringing the mental self back home”, students will learn how thoughts, memories and feelings work in the most scientific manner. They will be able to experience the overall view of their mind.

Wisdom will follow

With a bit of patience and dedication and a number of years of practice, students will gradually understand how their minds work. Resulting from the objectivity of this approach, students will learn that Jerry (thoughts, feelings) has an illusive nature, acting like rainbows, mirages and holograms and we are often tricked by Jerry. All vipassana practitioners will become wiser towards the activity in the material world because all social phenomena are the direct result of collective illusive thoughts, memories and feelings. Just by understanding objectively how the mind works, we will subsequently know how the world works too.

Taking a wrong turn

Refusing to recognize the existing 6th sense (mental eyes) means humanity hasn’t taken the blindfold off our mental eye, and this prevents us from understanding our inner world. Illusion is the most difficult nature to tackle. As long as we don’t have the right tool for the right job, we’ll get nowhere. This is the exact spot where our intellectual knowledge has taken the wrong turn. Without the right tool for the right job, mind experts are forced to connect thoughts, memories and feelings with the brain instead of viewing them as independent entities. They thought that by connecting all the complicated electrical wiring in the brain to the computer monitor they could examine mental events objectively. I don’t think so. We are fighting our mental war (on ignorance) in the wrong battlefield, I am afraid.

Consequently, we are forced (by medical science) to solve our mental problems at the assumed source, the brain. One of the most popular causes of mental turmoil, we are led to believe, is the imbalance of the chemicals or hormones in our brains. As a result, we need to (press on the brain button) adjust the chemical imbalance, which leads to taking more medication. This is just the beginning of a vicious cycle and more misery among prescription drugs users. I have also read a few articles talking about how giant drug companies operate their hugely profitable business by identifying new illnesses to boost their sales. This fact is quite shocking. I leave it to you to find out for yourself. Not to mention the researchers at Hull University, UK, who recently published regarding the ‘placebo effect’ connected with using anti-depression drugs.

Save your soul first!

If medication can truly and completely solve humans’ emotional problems, I am sure the social landscape wouldn’t be like it is now. We would be able to control our simple mental symptoms, worries, anxiety and depression, like a pinch of salt, wouldn’t we? The fact is that despite all the “happy pills” flooding the medical market, global society is still inundated with mentally wrecked people responsible for endless human tragedies and suffering. The precious medications can do little to curb the wild flower-like spread of mental diseases. It’s high time we looked into this matter.

Should you want to understand further this huge notion, it is vital that you learn the technique of bringing the mental self back home. This is the ideal beginning where you can gain your own wisdom and learn to survive mentally, avoiding mental stress and illness.

[rockyysdt]

Science as a whole was not discounted in my previous post. It was more in reference to current science/meditation aids and more specifically those that are known to me at this time. So far, nothing I am aware of implants true wisdom and awareness in and of itself. All the aids I know of at the moment produce certain sensations, temporary calms, etc. Like was said, if something were able to implant true wisdom and awareness, it would be a heck of a seller.

I think we're in agreement here.

Definitely nothing has been discovered which can take the place of Buddhas teaching.

Baby research steps performed by Dr. Persinger and others open up many future possibilities.

Interesting point you mention...care to expound on the point of the Buddha using available technology? I'm not sure I've come across what you're referring to, or if so it was not referred to in that manner.

Based on the works of Dr. Persinger I envisaged a future Buddha who might use technology and a device in order to facilitate enlightenment rather than many years of practice.

Given that, my expression "available technology" was meant to describe an "absense of technology".

Hence the Buddha could only achieve enlightenment by following the original teachings.

[fabianfred]

"Based on the works of Dr. Persinger I envisaged a future Buddha who might use technology and a device in order to facilitate enlightenment rather than many years of practice."

that's the weakness of humans...always looking for an easy way out...instead of putting in the effort....

"Hence the Buddha could only achieve enlightenment by following the original teachings. "

....what??? following whose teachings??? The Buddha is so great because he follows nobody's teachings...he rediscovers the lost Dhamma by himself.....then the rest of us follow his teachings....even Arahants

[SeerObserver]

Most asian religions place the self in the location of the heart rather than the brain.

My teacher...Supawan Green expands on this in several of her books

http://www.supawangreen.in.th/indexeng.html

I will try to find the passages for you.......

She says that we all have six senses...not five....and the sixth sense is the observer when we practise mindfulness (vipassana)

I like to compare the body with the computer...and the brain is the CPU/memory....but none of it works without the electricity (mind, being, self)

Thanks for the clarification and for providing the text.

[rockyysdt]

"Hence the Buddha could only achieve enlightenment by following the original teachings. "

....what??? following whose teachings??? The Buddha is so great because he follows nobody's teachings...he rediscovers the lost Dhamma by himself.....then the rest of us follow his teachings....even Arahants

Been pretty tired lately FF.

That's what I meant, "following the original teachings he developed".

If there was an easy way out, I think we'd all take it, don't you?

Edited March 26, 2009 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

Thanks for the clarification and for providing the text.

One doesn't need to locate the mind in order to be aware of it and to go through the process of purifying it, trying to locate it often ends up in us imagining where it is which is unhelpful. Asians tend to assume it's in the heart, we assume it's in the brain, it's probably a good thing in term of practice to let go of the idea it's in the brain.

[Svenn]

I've recently come across research which appears to discount Buddhism & the validity of our goals which may be illusion.

Experiments performed on the brain by Dr. Michael Persinger suggest that electrically suppressing specific brain waves can simulate experiences such as suppression of the "self", unity with infinity, & replication of Tibetan monks and Franciscan nuns' experiences, identical to those resulting from years of meditative practice.

Scott Bidstrum claims that the most persuasive tool used by Buddhists to prove the validity of their practice, "personal experience", can be explained and simulated through non metaphysical means.

If profound experiences can be triggered by artificial means, how will we be able to discriminate between enlightenment & illusion?

Reference:

http://www.bidstrup.com/mystic.htm

Very interesting info rocky.

I see absolutely no contradiction or discrepancy between this scientific study and Buddhism... if anything, it legitimizes the existence and truth of Buddha's teachings. Most Buddhists today or on this forum are highly attached to the sangha and dogmatically following some tradition or lineage... they're generally spiritual/mystic people that will be dismissive of anything that isn't in the 3rd century BC indian/sri lankan infallible "records" of what "the Buddha said" or whatever. It is good to be skeptical and not believe in the existence of anything that isn't proven or substantiated by the scientific method. If you believe the Buddha was a god-figure who had perfect knowledge of everything, then obviously you're going to be stuck with that 6th cent. bc mindset where it's unclear if there really are devas, atman, gods, or spirits everywhere or if the mind is something outside the brain, which I'm sure Gautama, as any ancient person, must have believed in. Otherwise, it is more reasonable to take only from the text that which is not postulated on spiritual entities, and dismiss the rest as innocent misunderstandings by the ancients.

The Zen monks generally understood this, freely practicing on their own with little texts, just deepening their meditation... which is ultimately all Gautama did as well. No need to worry if this study contradicts some fantasies people have about bodhistavas, nirvana, reincarnatoin, or an immaterial "Mind" the think floats above their body rather than logically being a switchboard within the brain. This study indicates that the human mind is indeed capable of changing to a state where attention to space and time is lost, in other words, the reality created by the 'superior parietal lobe' (space, time, differentiated entities)(see quote below), is just that- something created by the brain that we don't necessarily have to exist in as 'reality' with our 'self'.

Enlightenment is obviously something concrete that chemically happens in the brain, if you don't believe this then I might say you're one of the aformentioned people I described above. Why are you troubled rocky that scientists are beginning to find where it comes from? I believe in a thousand years or so we will be able to induce it with a pill - bad news for the proud masochists that want it to take 10 years of confiment in a cave or temple, good news for the masses of impoverished beings who never get a chance in their sorrowful lives to see beyond the superior parietal lobe.

The results show that in both cases, the pre-frontal cortex, which controls attention, is highly stimulated. This is not surprising - meditation requires a great deal of concentration. The subjects are clearly deeply attentive to their task. But the superior parietal lobe, the center that processes information about space, time and the orientation of the body in space, is suppressed, and is almost totally quiet. The result is that any sense of time, space or being in the world is suppressed along with the activity in the superior parietal lobe. And not feeling "in the world" leads to an "other-worldly" experience. So it is not surprising that those who have this experience describe it as being in the "spiritual realm." Persinger has been able to reproduce this by electrically supressing activity in the superior parietal lobe using his helmet - and when he performs this experiment on Tibetan monks and the Franciscan nun, they all report that the experience is identical to what they experience in their own meditative practice.

[sabaijai]

This study indicates that the human mind is indeed capable of changing to a state where attention to space and time is lost, in other words, the reality created by the 'superior parietal lobe' (space, time, differentiated entities)(see quote below), is just that- something created by the brain that we don't necessarily have to exist in as 'reality' with our 'self'.

Precisely. Again it seems to validate, rather than refute, principal Buddhist tenets.

[rockyysdt]

Why are you troubled rocky that scientists are beginning to find where it comes from? I believe in a thousand years or so we will be able to induce it with a pill - bad news for the proud masochists that want it to take 10 years of confiment in a cave or temple, good news for the masses of impoverished beings who never get a chance in their sorrowful lives to see beyond the superior parietal lobe.

The results show that in both cases, the pre-frontal cortex, which controls attention, is highly stimulated. This is not surprising - meditation requires a great deal of concentration. The subjects are clearly deeply attentive to their task. But the superior parietal lobe, the center that processes information about space, time and the orientation of the body in space, is suppressed, and is almost totally quiet. The result is that any sense of time, space or being in the world is suppressed along with the activity in the superior parietal lobe. And not feeling "in the world" leads to an "other-worldly" experience. So it is not surprising that those who have this experience describe it as being in the "spiritual realm." Persinger has been able to reproduce this by electrically supressing activity in the superior parietal lobe using his helmet - and when he performs this experiment on Tibetan monks and the Franciscan nun, they all report that the experience is identical to what they experience in their own meditative practice.

I guess the issue is whether the non "self" timeless experience is:

1. A chemically induced unreal experience triggered due to partial suppression of the brain, or

2. An unconditioned & permanent timeless state is real and actually exists.

[Brucenkhamen]

I guess the issue is whether the non "self" timeless experience is:

1. A chemically induced unreal experience triggered due to partial suppression of the brain, or

2. An unconditioned & permanent timeless state is real and actually exists.

I'm confused, how exactly does one measure the experience of not self or self with scientific instruments?

Edited March 28, 2009 by Brucenkhamen