jayboy Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 My comment that Giles is mental was related to a post earlier that said he doesn't fit in Thailand because he has a western mindset, not to his book or current charges.Another, unrelated point is that Giles, the seld proclaimed progressive leftist, has no qualms in sharing a stage with the likes of Chalerm, who was personally among the police, watching the crowds incited by Samak going on a rampage and murdering and burning students alive. Now they are both in the same political alliance. Marriage of convenience, huh? What does all this tell about his political or academic integrity? As for being coward - he is no Galileo, Galileo at least tried to defend himself. Giles comment about a western mindset is perfectly rational.I have heard several well educated Thais say much the same thing.How on earth do you figure this is "mental"? Winston Churchill said that if Hitler was to invade hel_l, he would promptly sign a pact with the devil.Politics brings strange partners together, eg Abhisit and Newin. I think there's a consensus that Giles is a marginal figure, ideologically and politically isolated.I hardly agree with anything he says (though haven't read his recent book) but he is a man to be admired.In say ten years time perhaps this will be recognised more widely.Why waste your firepower on him, or is it just too much that someone says the equivalent of Gallileo's whispered "but it does move". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Giles comment about a western mindset is perfectly rational. It was in Paitip's post, on the second page here, number 33: "IMHO, I am quite sure they would put Giles in jail, max sentence, and no pardon. Because his thinking is Western, not Thai." I thought that was complete nonsense - put in jail, max sentence, no pardon, because he has Western thinking. >> Did you read it? If so, why do you think it's rational? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caf Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 On one hand the anti-LM proponents talk about multitude of charges. Ok, that's obvious. But then, why only Giles refuses to accept justice system here? Why all the others, Suwalak, who has been cleared by the courts 18 times, Sondhi who has been sentenced, Jakrapopb - why all the others accept courts authority and have faith in fair trial and justice system?Giles is the only coward who ran away. On the subject of his offence - you publish allegations against real people, you'd better be ready to defend them. You can't just wrtie that so and so murdered people, wiped out whole families, you can't just write that such and such was supporting some illegal acts. If you do - be ready to support your allegations. Thaksin has been suing people for saying a lot less, lots of others sued people for making baseless accusations. Why does Giles demand that royalty should be refused such legal protection? Why does Giles think he should be free to say whatever he wants without any responsibility. Coward. I don't blame him for doing a runner. Da Torpedo was denied even basic legal representation for months while also being denied bail. The game is rigged and the dice are loaded. Exactly. And your post addresses the topic title Can someone explain why, on this forum, whatever the topic, there are more abusive than constructive posts, repeats of (often but not always) the same misinformation, and why not accepting one's opinion results in uncontrolled flaming instead of thought-out argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somluck Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 What do you expect from a country who is ranked 124 on 173 in the Worldwide press freedom index? I think there is a connection here, Singapore is ranked 144th and they have the most libel suits against the political opposition parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caf Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Elsewhere he'd be a clear mental case. As to who exactly is showing signs of being a "mental case" (the absurd charges of cowardice, the denial of what the vast majority know to be true. the overexcited and shrill tone) I leave to forum readers to decide.It's odd how discussion of this sensitive subject prompts otherwise fairly normal people to take leave of their senses. Hats off to Johpa by the way -a welcome and refreshing expression of honesty Agreed. Can't we have more well-thought-out posts here. I don't always agree with posters but respect their views even when i may totally disagree. But the flaming and illogic!!! and often from the same people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinnieTheKhwai Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 (edited) Plus.. give it up.. Khaoniaw: I was discussing Giles and his flight with a very earnest Brit at work, all for Giles and his fight for democracy, but who thought I was blackening the man's name by suggesting he was a Marxist! I shouldn't believe all that his enemies say about him! Well, that's beside the issue too. He CAN be a Marxist for all I care. In a democracy you should be alowed to voice views that some people may find Marxist, never mind if they are or not. Clearly this political and academic freedom currently does not exist in Thailand. What makes it especially sad is that it isn't even necessary; this isn't a country that has to fear for a big revolution. Edited March 27, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caf Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 ...there would clearly be no defense, no ability to disprove false charges. Oh, another Giles style conjecture. You might be surprised, but in real life there IS defence in Thai justice system. I don't know what is "false" about the charges - Has he not published a book? Has he not mentioned the monarchy there? Has he not say that the King did something unconsitutional? What is false about it? It's all out there, black on white, links are all over the thread. Real academics would have defended their theories and conclusions. Real academics would have presented sources and evidence to support their line of thought. Marxism might be still alive in academia. Giles is also a political leader of a marxist party and most of the time he confuses his academic role with activist role. Nutcase tried to arrest GW Bush once, for christsakes. In the UK it would have been eccentic curiosity. One of those wacos who preach aliens and crap. Elsewhere he'd be a clear mental case. Brilliant expose. Of course there would be a defence and a fair trial. So why leave Thailand? And I agree with your logic: he is not a real academic. As you imply, a Jekyl and Hyde character confusing his teaching role and his activist role as a laeder of a marxist party. I am sure your expose is right too about Bush and the aliens and that you are qualified to determine his mental health as well as your other claims to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Nutcase tried to arrest GW Bush once, for christsakes. Evidently oxymoronic. Anyone capable of such action is clearly in full possession of his faculties and sufficiently balanced to exercise them for the common good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsetBkk Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Agreed. Can't we have more well-thought-out posts here. I don't always agree with posters but respect their views even when i may totally disagree. But the flaming and illogic!!! and often from the same people Plus.. give it up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samgrowth Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 (edited) Giles comment about a western mindset is perfectly rational. It was in Paitip's post, on the second page here, number 33: "IMHO, I am quite sure they would put Giles in jail, max sentence, and no pardon. Because his thinking is Western, not Thai." I thought that was complete nonsense - put in jail, max sentence, no pardon, because he has Western thinking. >> Did you read it? If so, why do you think it's rational? Paitip was right. The only crime Giles committed was that he thinks differently from the Thai people, who are blind from years of propaganda. Can anyone tell me why Giles' father had to run away to England and never allowed back by the Thai government? His father's crime was almost the same; western style thinking (even an English wife), which was against the grain of the blind and conservative Thai people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puey_Ungpakorn Edited March 27, 2009 by samgrowth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madjbs Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 ^ You shouldn't make silly coments about things you don't seem to know anything about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 The only crime Giles committed was that he thinks differently from the Thai people No he publicly made specific accusations against monarchy. If I set a press conference and declare that someone has commited murder, for example, and I get sued - it won't be for "thinking differently". But Giles thinks he is special, he thinks he is an academic and left wing thinker, and so he is allowed to make up any stories he likes and cannot be held responsible, all the while accusing everyone of political prosecution. Just like Thaksin, maybe these two are a lot closer than it seems. >>>> Giles has been thinking differently for decades, yet got sued only once, for specific passage in his book. >>> His brother won Senate seat in Bangkok once, and even if he was the senator with the least number of votes, his work was very much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhaoNiaw Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 (edited) Plus.. give it up.. Khaoniaw: I was discussing Giles and his flight with a very earnest Brit at work, all for Giles and his fight for democracy, but who thought I was blackening the man's name by suggesting he was a Marxist! I shouldn't believe all that his enemies say about him! Well, that's beside the issue too. He CAN be a Marxist for all I care. In a democracy you should be alowed to voice views that some people may find Marxist, never mind if they are or not. Clearly this political and academic freedom currently does not exist in Thailand. What makes it especially sad is that it isn't even necessary; this isn't a country that has to fear for a big revolution. You missed my point. I'm fine with Marxist analysis, somewhere around that area myself. In that post I was just commenting on someone espousing support but who thought I was dissing Giles when I pointed out he's a Marxist. As I said earlier, I don't think he wrote anything that could cause a stir in an open society. Some valid points and others that I think are more wishful thinking than good analysis. But whatever, I think he should have the right to make them or at least defend them openly in a court without fear of a long prison term. Edited March 27, 2009 by KhaoNiaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Well, I have nothing against Marxist theories expanded to cover 21 century reality, in principle. Perhaps my main gripe with Giles is that he is too dumb and a total waste of otherwise interesting ideas. I just cringe when I read "you cannot discuss 1997 economic cirisis from outside Marx's theory" dictums. I cringe when I read "A coup for the rich" that was conducted against richest families in the country. The man's a moron, flashing his "academic" status at every opportunity, and he presents himself as some sort of a change from the usual Thai kowtowing to the authority.There are many people like that - claiming exactly the same, elevated treatment just because they got some fancy titles. "Oh, we heard phds are in vogue now, we all can get phds and have the same authority as royals. Wouldn't that be nice." >> I'm still thinking about the dilemma put out for me on the first page - if I ever run foul of the law, what would I do? Not an easy one, I admit. Realistically I'm going to be deported for any major transgressions, so that's not really a choice - leave now or serve years in jail and get kicked out anyway. On the other hand, if I still get a chance to restore my life to normalcy of some sorts and live with my family - I will definitely take my chances with Thai justice system. I belive I WILL get a fair trial, though ulitmately it's an equasion between me, the courts, and the accuser. I would deinitely NOT accuse Thai justice system. It's what it is, it's part of the country, take it or leave it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samgrowth Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 You can be a Marxist, Communist, Democrate or Republican, it doesn't matter Thailand is a democracy. However this is Thailand. You will be put in jail if you are anything else but Democrate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 What was the saying: "What a difference a day makes." For Thailand it is: "What a difference a color makes." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samgrowth Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 My American friend is a strong supporter of the Republican. I told him that this is Thailand. The word Republican must be used with care, or he could end up in jail for 15 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seri thai Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Has anyone actually read his book?? If so maybe they can add something to the topic regarding what the offending paragraph etc. actually contained. How did he criticise the monarchy? Did he suggest the monarcjy was behind the coup? What's the story. GOOGLE!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caf Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Or, perhaps, he realised that there's no substance whatsoever in his allegations and so they are indefensible in court. We are talking Lèse Majesté here, not libel. Proving that what you say is true is not a defense against lèse-majesté, and the court will not even let you try... Or, so you think that LM protects the monarchy only from offensive comments, not from baseless accusations presented in the polite manner? Giles has been going about this boogey man of political prosecution for ages, now there was a chance to prove that it exists, and he run away. He didn't attend even the first hearing, didn't even listen to charges, yet screamed of unfair trial. In the same book he writes about Sorayud's role in 1992 massacre, he has witness accounts and media stories as his sources. The LM passage, on the other hand, has no basis whatsoever. Academically it's just unacceptable, making up stories without any supporting evidence. Perhaps this exposure of his intellectual bankrupcy would have been more damaging than fleeing to his reputation. Good for him. Someone here said that he has "western" thinking. I don't know, things must have changed back there. In my days communist ideology and Marxist class struggles were dead and their ardent followers considered as freaks, in the same league as fruitarians and scientologists. I won't comment on the rest of your post But your first sentence, first question. The answer is yes. Under Thai law you have no defence. It is notb the same as libel or slander where you theoretically do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caf Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 The political change that the PAD were talking about will not be implemented by the current goverment, because they cannot do it. Things will be shuffled around a bit but essentially all the existing structures are still there. For real change, the society needs a paradigm shift , unfortunately it will be extremely difficult due to brainwashing since birth , but the thing I like about Giles is that he is providing an alternative for real change in society. Of course, the social elites oppose anything that threatens their hold, this happens in every country in every part of the world, and unsurprisingly Giles has found himself the target of an arrest warrant for challenging the establishment. Of course he won't get a fair trial. How true, well spoken! seconded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caf Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 On one hand the anti-LM proponents talk about multitude of charges. Ok, that's obvious. But then, why only Giles refuses to accept justice system here? Why all the others, Suwalak, who has been cleared by the courts 18 times, Sondhi who has been sentenced, Jakrapopb - why all the others accept courts authority and have faith in fair trial and justice system?Giles is the only coward who ran away. On the subject of his offence - you publish allegations against real people, you'd better be ready to defend them. You can't just wrtie that so and so murdered people, wiped out whole families, you can't just write that such and such was supporting some illegal acts. If you do - be ready to support your allegations. Why does Giles demand that royalty should be refused such legal protection? Why does Giles think he should be free to say whatever he wants without any responsibility. Coward. To be honest I haven't read Giles book (and can't be bothered to do so either) so don't really understand your comments on "murdered people " etc.I do understand he makes a republican proposal which other LM offenders presumably have not.As previously noted it would be impossible for Giles to receive a fair trial in Thailand.You fling around the epithet "coward" without taking into account Giles record of courage over the last two decades.He's silly and misguided I grant you but except in the minds of zealots his alleged offence in the greater scheme of things is miniscule. You haven't read the book. If you had you would realise he did not make any republican proposals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johncitizen Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 I would deinitely NOT accuse Thai justice system. It's what it is, it's part of the country, take it or leave it. I believe that Giles is two steps ahead of you, Plus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffer Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 The Nation Just in case there is anyone out there who still doesn't get why Giles didn't stick around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 I would deinitely NOT accuse Thai justice system. It's what it is, it's part of the country, take it or leave it. I believe that Giles is two steps ahead of you, Plus! Well, I'm not in a hurry to catch up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h90 Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 My American friend is a strong supporter of the Republican. I told him that this is Thailand. The word Republican must be used with care, or he could end up in jail for 15 years. What a nonsense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaleBlue Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 (edited) My American friend is a strong supporter of the Republican. I told him that this is Thailand. The word Republican must be used with care, or he could end up in jail for 15 years. What a nonsense! I think the issue of Republican is a no-nonsense issue in Thailand. American or Thai alike can go to jail for having that idea. Please keep it to yourselves, and not think out loud. Edited April 3, 2009 by DaleBlue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassienie Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 (edited) Seems like Thailand`s criminals all run away to Britain and British criminals all run away to Thailand. If this trend continues, than in the next 10 years, most of Britain will become Thai and most of Thailand will become British. The bad news is, that we will be living amongst thieves, cut throats and scum, the good news is, that the visa system will be abolished and we will all be given Thai citizenship. Edited April 3, 2009 by sassienie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minus Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 I would deinitely NOT accuse Thai justice system. It's what it is, it's part of the country, take it or leave it. I believe that Giles is two steps ahead of you, Plus! Well, I'm not in a hurry to catch up. Even if you tried, you couldn't : you're too thick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtgruen Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 What do you expect from a country who is ranked 124 on 173 in the Worldwide press freedom index? Look again....Thailand #59, Israel by comparison #115, Singapore # 147 http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11715 I don't know how countries such as Germany and Canada rate so hi (#11 and #18), where many people have gone to jail over the past view years, for voicing their opinions and beliefs (not saying those beliefs where right, but that is not the issue, the people had a right to free speech) As for Thailand, I feel a balance is necessary...Freedom of Speech, within the boundries of Respect. Respect may be an outdated value to some of you, but, even though I don't practice it often enough, I feel that it is necessary, for good, positive human interaction. I don't believe that laws should be used to silence opinions, but I do believe, that it they could serve their true purpose - reminding people to show respect to their head of state. After all, we are not animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtgruen Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 You can be a Marxist, Communist, Democrate or Republican, it doesn't matter Thailand is a democracy.However this is Thailand. You will be put in jail if you are anything else but Democrate. lol ROFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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