the pros, cons/risks of keeping weapons for self protection

[LooseCannon]

Anybody care to comment on the legality of a farang with no licence for a firearm shooting dead an intruder with a firearm that is legally licenced to a Thai national?

Shooting dead someone is a big thing, the main problem will be did the shooter had a VERY GOOD reason to kill the other man, the ownership of the gun won't be the main issue here.

One other thing I find very disturbing is to assume that the police will side with a thug, because he's Thai against an honest man because he's a falang. I wouldn’t live in such a country.

Purely from a legal code viewpoint (with no accounting for potential police bias etc.).....

Is it the weapon that is licenced & not the person?

Or is a specific weapon licenced to a specific person?

If it is the weapon that is licenced, does that mean anybody can use it?

"Shooting dead someone is a big thing..." - absolutely correct, a point which some people here fail to grasp. "sweeping the room" with a shotgun etc. has a certain rambo-esque ring to it, but the cold hard reality of a human being lying dead on your bedroom floor after being blown apart by a shotgun is something else altogether.

Personally I see no reason to have any sort of firearm, but everybody is entitled to their own opinion & have their own reasons.

[Naam]

I never owned a gun and I never will. Less guns around means less violent crimes , sure knifes can kill too but its just not the same. There are ways to protect yourself without using guns. I think most of the world agree.

sure, no need for a gun. the most effective weapon to deal with a couple of robbers is to chase them away with a wet towel

[Ulysses G.]

Killing someone is not easy unless you are sure that it is him or you.

If someone has broken into your house when he knows that you are there, you can be pretty sure that he is willing to seriously hurt and probably kill you, and is not all that concerned about anyone but himself.

I don't think that it would bother me all that much to put such a sick character out of commission.

[JimsKnight]

Unless you have Permanent Residence status you cannot buy a gun in Thailand.

You could buy it in your wifes' name but even then you would not be allowed to carry it in your vehicle.

Patrick

Heh, you don't have to have a thai wife or PR to get a gun.

The black market is awash with guns for the highest bidder

Believe me I've been offered more than once

Prefer to carry pepper spray at the moment though.

[TonySoprano]

Anybody care to comment on the legality of a farang with no licence for a firearm shooting dead an intruder with a firearm that is legally licenced to a Thai national?

Shooting dead someone is a big thing, the main problem will be did the shooter had a VERY GOOD reason to kill the other man, the ownership of the gun won't be the main issue here.

One other thing I find very disturbing is to assume that the police will side with a thug, because he's Thai against an honest man because he's a falang. I wouldn't live in such a country.

You wouldn't live in such a country but you will vacation there and/or post on a message board about said country?

[Heng]

Not wise to go with an illegal weapon. When and where are you going to practice with it (and what good is a weapon that you don't practice with)? You're likely not going to take it to any public ranges where all trained eyes can clearly see there are no metal stamped registry numbers on your piece.

Edited April 5, 2009 by Heng

[rixalex]

Shooting dead someone is a big thing, the main problem will be did the shooter had a VERY GOOD reason to kill the other man, the ownership of the gun won't be the main issue here.

I can assure you it will be a very big issue when the family of the deceased get a lawyer involved.

[LooseCannon]

Anybody care to comment on the legality of a farang with no licence for a firearm shooting dead an intruder with a firearm that is legally licenced to a Thai national?

Give him a knife after he stops breathing. If you want to be a little more dramatic, place your unloaded gun in his hand and kick him around a bit like you were both fighting for the weapon. In all likelihood, you're not famous enough to have Khunying Pornthip show up so no need to worry about the forensic evidence not quite adding up.

Self defense.

I don't doubt that this approach would work for you (a man of not some insignifant influence ) but could a farang successfully pull it off?

I think if a farang shot & killed a Thai the investigation would not be left to some shitkicker but would generate a bit of interest further up the chain of command.

Much as I admire Khunying Pornthip, I find her hair rather distracting.

[bungy007]

By far the most sensible move is to.....move. Somewhere safe for you, your wife and child. Not too far, maybe a larger town nearby.

Have to agree. I was involved with some very unpleasantness in our last village. All was great - people very friendly until the family opposite moved and a family of extremely low level mafia moved in. They started to intimidate all of the neighbours and then it was our turn. They made their play, the police were brought in as was a very high level lawyer who is a personal friend and the judge made his decision. The whole family got 6 months suspended sentences but they then put it about that if this was the south of Thailand I would already be dead. given that the police pointed out on many occasions that they are very low but definitely in the yaba supply chain, Thai friends pointed out that it wouldn't take much - a couple of days worth of free drugs to get someone to do their dirty work for them!

You can't rely on the law and self defence is not accepted out here when it comes to Thai v non-thais. Find a safer place to live is the best way and brings its own peace of mind which is why you came to live out here.

good luck

[farseer]

You shoot one of these idiots and the police as usual will put the blame on you.

You will be arrested, probably held in jail, until they figure out how much money to squeeze out of you.

You will be charged for murder, no gun permit and whatever else they can find in their little red book.

Then you will find it impossible to remain in that village, as the people will turn against you, you are the outsider remember. Village mentally is xenophobic.

I personally would sell up and move to somewhere decent and rather more civilized, and a dam_n site safer, like a town or city with plenty of shops/ good hospitals and schools.

[TonySoprano]

Anybody care to comment on the legality of a farang with no licence for a firearm shooting dead an intruder with a firearm that is legally licenced to a Thai national?

Give him a knife after he stops breathing. If you want to be a little more dramatic, place your unloaded gun in his hand and kick him around a bit like you were both fighting for the weapon. In all likelihood, you're not famous enough to have Khunying Pornthip show up so no need to worry about the forensic evidence not quite adding up.

Self defense.

I don't doubt that this approach would work for you (a man of not some insignifant influence ) but could a farang successfully pull it off?

I think if a farang shot & killed a Thai the investigation would not be left to some shitkicker but would generate a bit of interest further up the chain of command.

Much as I admire Khunying Pornthip, I find her hair rather distracting.

why would they care? where is the motive?

[Pierrot]

One other thing I find very disturbing is to assume that the police will side with a thug, because he's Thai against an honest man because he's a falang. I wouldn't live in such a country.

You wouldn't live in such a country but you will vacation there and/or post on a message board about said country?

Vacation maybe, I travelled to some countries honestly I wouldn't live there, Thailand is not one of them. The only people here I don't really feel comfortable with are custom officers, the police I never had any problem with them, beside the regular speeding ticket.

Shooting dead someone is a big thing, the main problem will be did the shooter had a VERY GOOD reason to kill the other man, the ownership of the gun won't be the main issue here.

I can assure you it will be a very big issue when the family of the deceased get a lawyer involved.

We are talking here about scumbags who breaks into your house, do you really think the family can afford a lawyer ? Now if you shoot dead your business associate, it's a different issue

Edited April 5, 2009 by Pierrot

[Heng]

I don't doubt that this approach would work for you (a man of not some insignifant influence ) but could a farang successfully pull it off?

I think if a farang shot & killed a Thai the investigation would not be left to some shitkicker but would generate a bit of interest further up the chain of command.

Much as I admire Khunying Pornthip, I find her hair rather distracting.

Yeah, you might have a point. I think it might help if farangs also stabbed theirselves in the thigh to up the sympathy points a bit. Might help your case.

p.s. not too deep though as there's an artery in there

[farseer]

We are talking here about scumbags who breaks into your house, do you really think the family can afford a lawyer ?

Yes! The family simply promise the lawyer some of the compensation when he wins the case and he will win against a foreigner.

Anyway, it would be unlikely to go that far as the family would call for money at the police station and the police would then squeeze this person hard, and he would pay there and then because refusing and going to jail would be a bad choice, not only for him but his wife as well as she would really suffer back at the "farm".

These village people can get real nasty and if something were to happen it would be impossible for the police to catch any of them.

[Pierrot]

We are talking here about scumbags who breaks into your house, do you really think the family can afford a lawyer ?

Yes! The family simply promise the lawyer some of the compensation when he wins the case and he will win against a foreigner.

Anyway, it would be unlikely to go that far as the family would call for money at the police station and the police would then squeeze this person hard, and he would pay there and then because refusing and going to jail would be a bad choice, not only for him but his wife as well as she would really suffer back at the "farm".

These village people can get real nasty and if something were to happen it would be impossible for the police to catch any of them.

Here you're talking about a dumb foreigner who marries a bar girl and end up in a village where everybody knows him for what he is : a stupid fool.

[Ulysses G.]

I have seen a good number of happy marriages with bar girls that changed their ways. Don't be so harsh!

[eldar1]

We are talking here about scumbags who breaks into your house, do you really think the family can afford a lawyer ? Now if you shoot dead your business associate, it's a different issue

After killing said scumbag, the family's ability to get lawyer would be the least of my worries, i'd be far more concerned with the murder charges brought against me by the government.

Remember people, it is murder until you can conclusively proof it's not, i.e it was self-defense. The burden of proof on self-defense is high. For example, if you shoot a person that is only robbing your house, it's murder, if he has a knive but he's across the room when you shoot him, it's murder, if he does not have a visible firearm, it's murder. It's pretty much only self-defense when the intruder is imminently going to kill you. That's to say he has a gun pointed at you or is charging across the room at you with a knive etc.

I'm not sure how the laws work here in thailand, but i highly doubt that they would be much different. If all that was required to proof that it was self defense, is for the person to be in your home when you shot him, i'd think that the local mafia would be making generous use of this rule.

Is the possibility of going to jail on a murder charge really worth it just for not having your tv stolen?

[Ulysses G.]

Remember people, it is murder until you can conclusively proof it's not, i.e it was self-defense. The burden of proof on self-defense is high. For example, if you shoot a person that is only robbing your house, it's murder, if he has a knive but he's across the room when you shoot him, it's murder, if he does not have a visible firearm, it's murder. It's pretty much only self-defense when the intruder is imminently going to kill you. That's to say he has a gun pointed at you or is charging across the room at you with a knive etc.

I'm not sure how the laws work here in thailand, but i highly doubt that they would be much different.

I think that you are wrong about this - at least in America - a thief has broken into your house when he knows that you are there and you have to give him first shot at killing a family member, before you can put him out of commission?

Sounds almost Communist!

[rixalex]

We are talking here about scumbags who breaks into your house, do you really think the family can afford a lawyer ? Now if you shoot dead your business associate, it's a different issue

After killing said scumbag, the family's ability to get lawyer would be the least of my worries, i'd be far more concerned with the murder charges brought against me by the government.

Remember people, it is murder until you can conclusively proof it's not, i.e it was self-defense. The burden of proof on self-defense is high. For example, if you shoot a person that is only robbing your house, it's murder, if he has a knive but he's across the room when you shoot him, it's murder, if he does not have a visible firearm, it's murder. It's pretty much only self-defense when the intruder is imminently going to kill you. That's to say he has a gun pointed at you or is charging across the room at you with a knive etc.

I'm not sure how the laws work here in thailand, but i highly doubt that they would be much different. If all that was required to proof that it was self defense, is for the person to be in your home when you shot him, i'd think that the local mafia would be making generous use of this rule.

Is the possibility of going to jail on a murder charge really worth it just for not having your tv stolen?

Absolutely. But for all the gun lovers out there, you are pointing out all the nitty-gritty stuff that follows their heroics. This is the stuff they would rather just not think about. Their reasoning is, "save my life first, deal with all that crap later". The truth is though your life might not have been worth saving if you end up having your life savings squeezed out of you and have to do a stretch behind bars.

[rixalex]

I think that you are wrong about this - at least in America -

And where are we?

[eldar1]

I think that you are wrong about this - at least in America - a thief has broken into your house when he knows that you are there and you have to give him first shot at killing a family member, before you can put him out of commission?

Sounds almost Communist!

I would suggest brushing up on American law then Google is your friend as always, if you are so inclined then an informative call to your lawyer of choice is another option, or you can go ahead and kill the next person that enters your home and find out in court all 3 options will confirm that i'm more on then money that you would personally like. Although it would not recommend option 3, really in all seriousness DO NOT go with option 3.

[Pierrot]

We are talking here about scumbags who breaks into your house, do you really think the family can afford a lawyer ? Now if you shoot dead your business associate, it's a different issue

After killing said scumbag, the family's ability to get lawyer would be the least of my worries, i'd be far more concerned with the murder charges brought against me by the government.

Remember people, it is murder until you can conclusively proof it's not, i.e it was self-defense. The burden of proof on self-defense is high. For example, if you shoot a person that is only robbing your house, it's murder, if he has a knive but he's across the room when you shoot him, it's murder, if he does not have a visible firearm, it's murder. It's pretty much only self-defense when the intruder is imminently going to kill you. That's to say he has a gun pointed at you or is charging across the room at you with a knive etc.

I'm not sure how the laws work here in thailand, but i highly doubt that they would be much different. If all that was required to proof that it was self defense, is for the person to be in your home when you shot him, i'd think that the local mafia would be making generous use of this rule.

Is the possibility of going to jail on a murder charge really worth it just for not having your tv stolen?

There are a number of issues involved. If you're not comfortable with them, the easy solution is get a dog and forget the gun.

[LooseCannon]

I don't doubt that this approach would work for you (a man of not some insignifant influence ) but could a farang successfully pull it off?

I think if a farang shot & killed a Thai the investigation would not be left to some shitkicker but would generate a bit of interest further up the chain of command.

Much as I admire Khunying Pornthip, I find her hair rather distracting.

Yeah, you might have a point. I think it might help if farangs also stabbed theirselves in the thigh to up the sympathy points a bit. Might help your case.

p.s. not too deep though as there's an artery in there

What with my shaky hand how could I not miss a major artery.

sure, no need for a gun. the most effective weapon to deal with a couple of robbers is to chase them away with a wet towel

Very sensible suggestion - a quick flick of the wet towel to the gonads & even the most demented yabaa crazed thug will turn tail & run.

[Ulysses G.]

I think that you are wrong about this - at least in America -

And where are we?

We are in Thailand, but if you look at his post he admits that he does not know the law in Thailand.

[Pierrot]

Now if we can have some straight answers to a couple of clear questions :

- Does anybody knows a reputable shooting range between Bangkok and Korat ?

- A popular sport in my country is called "ball trap" In english I believe it can be translated by "clay shooting", does anybody know if we can practice this activity in Thailand ?

[Ulysses G.]

I think that you are wrong about this - at least in America - a thief has broken into your house when he knows that you are there and you have to give him first shot at killing a family member, before you can put him out of commission?

Sounds almost Communist!

I would suggest brushing up on American law then Google is your friend as always, if you are so inclined then an informative call to your lawyer of choice is another option, or you can go ahead and kill the next person that enters your home and find out in court all 3 options will confirm that i'm more on then money that you would personally like. Although it would not recommend option 3, really in all seriousness DO NOT go with option 3.

I guess that being able to kill an intruder in your home must be one of those urban myths that most people believe. I must have heard it a million times.

Edited April 5, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[eldar1]

I guess that being able to kill an intruder in your home must be one of those urban myths that most people believe. I must have heard it a million times.

You are always able, but it for it to be legal you would have to fit a lot of requirements. This is still a human life we are talking about, as much as you try to rationalize that it's not. The law dictates that he has the same right to life as you, so only when he is directly threatening/trying to kill you and you have no other possible option, only then is killing him in self-defense legal.

So yes it is possible to kill an intruder and for you not to go to jail for it, but there is also the possibility that you kill the intruder and you will go to jail for it.

This being the case, isn't it just wiser to let the scumbag take what he wants, call the cops and have them try to sort it out ? Your ego might be bruised but you'd still be alive, your insurance pays you for the stolen stuff and maybe the cops can even find the guy and haul him off to jail. Justice served, everyone lives, no real harm done.

As for not knowing the exact particulars of thai self defense law, i highly doubt that it would be very much different from self-defense laws anywhere else, from what i've read, they seem to be pretty much the same world wide (barring a couple of african and middle eastern countries).

You ofcourse are free to do as you wish, i just wish that you don't think that just because someone does something that you don't like and/or is stealing your stuff, that killing him is pefectly justifiable. Life is more important than stuff.

[LooseCannon]

We are talking here about scumbags who breaks into your house, do you really think the family can afford a lawyer ?

Yes! The family simply promise the lawyer some of the compensation when he wins the case and he will win against a foreigner.

Anyway, it would be unlikely to go that far as the family would call for money at the police station and the police would then squeeze this person hard, and he would pay there and then because refusing and going to jail would be a bad choice, not only for him but his wife as well as she would really suffer back at the "farm".

These village people can get real nasty and if something were to happen it would be impossible for the police to catch any of them.

Here you're talking about a dumb foreigner who marries a bar girl and end up in a village where everybody knows him for what he is : a stupid fool.

Here's a couple of possible scenarios.....

Farang kills intruder who turns out to be the idiot son of the village headman or local bigshot, much loved & indulged by said parent.

Farang kills intruder who turns out to be the harmless village drunk, known as someone who would never hurt a fly, loved & tolerated by the villagers.

Farang kills intruder who turns out to be a 12 year old kid on a dare from his mates.

Farang kills intruder who turns out to mother-in-law on her way for her midnight piss.

Anyone care to hazard a guess at the likely outcome for said farang?

"Here you're talking about a dumb foreigner who marries a bar girl and end up in a village where everybody knows him for what he is : a stupid fool." - not really sure where you are going with comment, but it sounds like the sort of <deleted> usually levelled at Thais.

[rixalex]

Life is more important than stuff.

Good post Eldar.

I don't think it's so much about "the stuff" though for these trigger-happy fellows. It's much more about empowerment - about standing up as a man and defending their castle - about beating their chest with one hand, and taking hold of their balls with the other.... and to hel_l with whatever the consequences.

[Ulysses G.]

If all they are going to do is steal, I rather give them what they want, but how do you know?

It is VERY common for criminals to kill anyone who is awake during home invasions here. I honestly think that if you have a weapon and know how to use it, you are better off killing a home intruder as soon as you see them. Don’t try to hold them for the police unless you are in law enforcement yourself.

If they are in your house and know someone is home, chances are that they are more than willing to hurt you and they should not be there anyway. I do not want to hurt or kill anyone unnecessarily, but I do not think that this is unreasonable. Personally, I would rather take my chances with a Judge than a hardened criminal.

Edited April 5, 2009 by Ulysses G.