One-two-go Blacklisted By The Ec

[Tigs]

'Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing'

That is a quote from military aviation in aircraft that is often single seat. It was a quote applied frequently to landing on aircraft carriers, which was one of the most hazardous types of landings. It is not meant to apply to commercial aviation where hundreds of passengers may be traveling on the aircraft'.

DaleBlue

Perhaps you ought to use the edit function.

I agree with CFIT (interesting name btw), this thread is not an appropriate place for attempts at humour, there are many threads on Thai Visa you can visit if you want to have a 'laugh', but this really ought not to be one of them.

[samgrowth]

Next time fly airasia.

[LostBro]

Two things to note:

1. In my very short, but very bad, experience with a One-Two-Go flight, over 50% of the dead passengers were non-Thai. I mention this to rebut the previous statements that only Thais fly One-Two-Go.
   
2. Because Thailand provides essentially no oversight of their airlines (a fact that should cause tremendous concern regarding all Thai-based airlines), One-Two-Go/Orient Thai do as they wish. For example, during the ordered grounding of One-Two-Go (to appease the FAA), One-Two-Go did not fly domestically. Instead, it flew Orient Thai's daily international routes from Bangkok to Hong Kong and back. Let me repeat: An airline without an Air Operating Certificate flew an international route for approximately a month. Do you think the insurance would have covered an event? Do you think the passengers were only Thai?
   

• Or do you think the passengers would have cared if there was the paltry insurance provided by the laws of Thailand? That is, would you fly an Orient Thai flight knowing if you were killed, your family would be compensated $50k for your life? (For those of you with kids, think about the investment of emotion, time, education, plans to spend your life with them) Or if you were burned about the face (2nd degree), arms and neck (3rd degree) and had a broken back, you'd be given $200k - not even enough to cover the costs of skin grafts?
  

*Please note, I don't believe Thai lives are any less precious than non-Thai lives. I merely point out this misunderstanding of the passenger-base to rebut the believe that this is an "them" not "us" issue.

[Tigs]

Lostbro

Firstly apologies I keep meaning to try and sort out a skype con but have had a nightmare month. A question I hope anyway is of general interest. With regards to insurance, how are the Thais getting away with such a low pay out? I know you will have researched this but surely insurance levels are governed by IATA or some ruling somewhere within ICAO. If a Thai dies on a US flight his family can collect say $1M, why if a US citizen dies on a Thai flight is it $50k? Flying these machines, one doesn't get involved in the financial management side of airlines. What have you found out in this respect, especially as the insurance agent is not a Thai company?

[CFIT]

http://phuketwan.com/tourism/phuket-airpor...released-11175/

<h1 class="title">Latest: Phuket Airport Flight Crash Report Released</h1> By Phuketwan Reporters

Monday, June 1, 2009 THE results of the investigation into the One-Two-Go crash of Flight OG269 at Phuket Airport in 2007 were released today, listing six causes for the tragedy.

The report also made three sets of recommendations, one for the airline, one for Airports of Thailand, and one for the Department of Transport.

The One-Two-Go MD 82 aircraft on a scheduled flight from Bangkok crashed on landing on Phuket early on the evening of September 16, 2007, with the deaths of 90 passengers and crew.

Another 40 survived, many with severe injuries or burns.

As has been suggested, the results of the investigation appear to confirm that the pilot froze at the controls at a time when he needed to react to bad weather conditions.

The pilot did not following standard operation procedure for going around; he failed to hit the go-around button; he failed to respond to control alerts; co-ordination between the pilot and the co-pilot broke down; both pilots failed to react to the emergency.

The summary of the results also make the point that the pilots were suffering from an accumulation of stress and fatigue.

The airline, One-Two-Go, was advised to more closely review training procedures (cockpit resource management) and flight operations.

Limitations should be placed on the flight hours of the pilots and the aircraft; a safety management system (SMS) needs to be created.

Executives at all levels needed to set values in a corporate culture for following rules and regulations and report unusual developments.

Airports of Thailand was advised to provide a safety management system; Runways needed to be wider and safer; specific recommendations were made to improve the ability of rescue vehicles to move around Phuket International Airport.

The Department of Transportation was advised to make more thorough checks on One-Two-Go and its parent Orient Thai Airlines; coordination with the Bureau of Meteorology needed to be improved.

Release of the report came online at www.aviation.go.th with the Thai version released first. An English version is expected to be released shortly.

This article has been compiled from a translation of the Thai version which we will update as soon as more information becomes available.

___________________________________________

So, who will be indicted for the fraudulent pilot hour log books and non- existant checkrides resulting in 90 deaths and 40 injured ? ?

INDICT UDOM NOW !! ( CEO of 1-2 Go )

[DaleBlue]

1 crash is their history, and it is banned.

Shall Thailand ban AirFrance? Their history is not exactly clean. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France

1940s

• On 27 October 1949, boxer Marcel Cerdan, violinist Ginette Neveu, some members of the Barnum & Bailey Circus and Walt Disney Studios chief merchandiser Kay Kamen^[50] died when an Air France flight crashed into a mountain after two attempts to land at the São Miguel Island airport in the Azores. ^[51]
  

[edit] 1950s

• On the nights of 12 and 14 June 1950, two Air France Douglas DC-4s (registration F-BBDE and F-BBDM, respectively) crashed into the sea off Bahrain while landing, with a combined loss of 86 lives. The first accident claimed the lives of 40 of the 53 occupants and the second 46 out of 52. Both aircraft had operated the Karachi, Pakistan, to Bahrain portion of Air France's Saigon, Vietnam - Paris sector. The accident investigators concluded that the pilot in command did not maintain his correct altitude until the runway lights became visible during the approach to Bahrain in the first accident, and that the pilot in command did not keep an accurate check of his altitude and rate of descent during the approach procedure in the second accident.^[52]
  

• On 3 February 1951, a Douglas DC-4 (registration F-BBDO) operating Air France's Douala, Cameroon, to Niamey, Niger, sector hit the 13,354 feet high Cameroon Mountain near Bouea, Cameroon, west of Douala, at a height of 8,500 feet (2,600 m). The aircraft was destroyed, killing all 29 occupants. The mountain was probably only partially visible from the flight deck due to the mist surrounding it. Although the pilot immediately turned to the left, the plane hit the steeply rising terrain with its left wing. The accident investigators concluded that the crew followed an inaccurate procedure and relied on imprecise navigation. The investigators furthermore determined that the crew did not check the draft. Moreover, they cited the crew's error of judgement and over-confidence when flying over the mountain mass as additional contributory factors.^[53]
  

• On 3 March 1952, a SNCASE SE-161 Languedoc (registration F-BCUM) operating a passenger flight from Nice Le Var Airport to Paris Le Bourget Airport crashed shortly after takeoff with the loss of all 38 lives on board. Soon after takeoff from Le Var Airport, the aircraft began banking to the left. This increased progressively until the aircraft flipped over on its back and crashed. The accident investigators attributed the accident to the aircraft's blocked ailerons to the left, as a result of a mechanical fault related to the design.^[54]
  

• On 29 April 1952, a Douglas C-54A (registration F-BELI) operating a German internal service from Frankfurt Rhein-Main Airport to Berlin Tempelhof Airport came under attack from two Soviet MiG 15 fighters while passing through one of the Allied air corridors over East Germany. Although the attack had severely damaged the plane, necessitating the shutdown of engines three and four, the pilot landed safely at West Berlin's Tempelhof Airport. An inspection of the aircraft at Tempelhof revealed that it had been hit by 89 shots fired from the Soviet MiGs during the air attack. There were no fatalities among the 17 occupants (six crew, eleven passengers). The Soviet military authorities defended this attack on a civilian aircraft by claiming the Air France plane was outside the air corridor at the time of attack.^[55]
  

• On 1 September 1953, a Lockheed L-749A Constellation (registration F-BAZZ) operating the Paris-Nice portion of a passenger flight to Hong Kong crashed into Mount Cemet, France, with the loss of all 42 lives on board. The accident occurred while the flight deck crew was preparing to land at Nice's Côte d'Azur airport, the aircraft's first scheduled stop. The accident investigation established "controlled flight into terrain (CFIT)" as the cause.^[56]
  

• On 8 April 1957, a Douglas C-47B (registration F-BEIK) operating an Algerian passenger flight from Biskra lost height after takeoff and crashed a mile beyond the airport's runway with the loss of all 34 lives on board.^[57]
  

• On 31 May 1958, a Douglas C-47A (registration F-BHKV) operating a non-scheduled Algerian passenger flight from Algiers to Colomb-Béchard crashed near Molière with the loss of all 15 lives on board.^[58]
  

[edit] 1960s

• On 29 August 1960, a Lockheed L-1049G Super Constellation (registration F-BHBC) operating flight AF343 from Paris to Abidjan, Ivory Coast (Côte d'Ivoire), via Dakar, Senegal, crashed into the sea with the loss of all 63 lives on board while the aircraft's flight deck crew made a second attempt to land at Dakar's Yoff Airport.^[59]
  

• On 10 May 1961, a Lockheed L-1649A Starliner (registration F-BHBM) operating the Fort Lamy (now N'Djamena), Chad, to Marseille Marignane portion of Air France's Brazzaville, Congo - Paris sector as flight AF406 crashed in the Sahara desert near Edjele, Algeria, with the loss of all 78 lives on board. The aircraft was cruising at an altitude of 20,000 feet (6,100 m) when its empennage failed. This caused it to break up in flight and crash in the Sahara desert. The accident investigators believed that the empennage separated from the rest of the aircraft as a result of the detonation of a nitrocellulose explosive device.^[60]
  

• On 12 September 1961, a Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle III (registration F-BJTB) operating the Paris Orly-Rabat-Casablanca sector as flight AF2005 crashed near Rabat's Sale Airport with the loss of all 77 lives on board. At the time of the accident meteorological conditions in the local area were thick, low fog. The poor weather conditions reduced horizontal visibility and ceiling. The pilot informed ATC that he wanted to attempt a break-through over the NDB. The aircraft was destroyed by fire when it impacted the ground, killing everyone on board. The accident investigators cited the commander's error in reading his instruments as the most likely cause.^[61]
  

• On 3 June 1962, a chartered Boeing 707-328 (registration F-BHSM) flying from Orly Airport, Paris, France, to Hartsfield-Jackson Airport, Atlanta, USA, crashed at Orly during takeoff. 130 out of 132 people on board were killed. Two flight attendants sitting in the rear section of the aircraft were saved. The investigation found a faulty servo motor, which had led to an improper (and non-adjustable) elevator trim. Brake marks measuring 1,500 feet (457 m) were found on the runway, indicating that the flight deck crew tried to abort takeoff. The aircraft rolled right while only seven feet (two m) from the ground, causing its right wing to hit the ground. It crashed 50 yards (45 m) from the runway and exploded.^[62]
  

• On 22 June 1962, Air France flight 117, operated with a Boeing 707-328 (registration F-BHST), crashed into a forest on a hill at an altitude of about 4,000 feet (1,200 m) during bad weather, while attempting to land at Point-à-Pitre, Guadeloupe, West Indies, killing all 113 on board. The aircraft was attempting a non-precision NDB approach. A malfunctioning VOR station and poor NDB reception due to thunderstorms were blamed for the accident. The airframe had acculumated only 985 hours of flying at the time of the accident. ^[63]
  

• On 6 March 1968, a Boeing 707-328C (registration F-BLCJ) operating the Caracas-Point-à-Pitre sector of Air France flight 212 hit the southern slope of La Soufrière Mountain at an altitude of 3,937 feet, 27.5 km SSW of Le Raizet Airport with the loss of all 63 lives on board. When ATC had cleared the flight deck crew for a visual approach to Le Raizet's runway 11, the crew had reported the airfield in sight. Flight 212 started to descend from FL90 and passed Saint Claude at an altitude of about 4,400 feet (1,300 m). The accident investigators cited a visual approach procedure at night in which the descent was begun from an incorrectly identified point as the probable cause. Charlie Juliet had flown for 33 hours since coming off the Boeing production line, and was on her second revenue service (her maiden passenger flight was the previous day's outbound journey from Paris).^[64]
  

• On 11 September 1968, a Sud Aviation SE-210 Caravelle III (registration F-BOHB) operating the Ajaccio, Corsica - Nice sector as flight AF1611 crashed into the sea near Cap d'Antibes off Nice with the loss of all 95 lives on board. The accident occurred while the flight deck crew attempted an emergency landing at Côte d'Azur Airport, following the detection of a fire in the aircraft's rear cabin 21 minutes after takeoff from Ajaccio. The accident investigators believed that the fire had started in the right lavatory and galley area.^[65]
  

• On 4 December 1969, a Boeing 707-328B (registration F-BHSZ) operating the Caracas-Point-à-Pitre sector of Air France flight 212 crashed into the sea shortly after takeoff from Simon Bolivar International Airport with the loss of all 62 on board.^[66]
  

[edit] 1970s

• On 12 June 1975, a Boeing 747-128 (registration N28888) operating the sector between Bombay (now Mumbai), India, and Tel Aviv, Israel, of flight AF193 to Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport was destroyed by fire on the ground at Bombay's Santa Cruz Airport, following an aborted takeoff. The aircraft's tyre on its right-hand main undercarriage had failed while the flight deck crew was executing a 180 degree turn at the beginning of Santa Cruz Airport's runway 27. When the flight deck crew began its takeoff run, another tyre failed. At that point the plane's wheels and braking assembly came into contact with the runway, starting a fire. The crew aborted takeoff. The ensuing delay in shutting down the engines, as well as the improper deployment of the airport's fire service, caused the fire to spread, leading to the plane's total destruction. There were no fatalities among the 394 occupants (18 crew and 376 passengers).^[67]
  

• Operation Entebbe: On 27 June 1976, an Airbus A300 (registration F-BVGG) operating flight AF139 from Tel Aviv to Paris via Athens was hijacked shortly after departing Athens. After refuelling in Benghazi, Libya, the hijackers demanded it be flown to Entebbe, Uganda. One hostage was freed in Benghazi and in Uganda another 155 non-Israeli and/or non-Jewish hostages were released. The flight crew remained with the hostages after Captain Bacos insisted he was responsible for them. After several days of negotiating and diplomatic interventions, Israel launched a commando raid into Entebbe to free them. During the assault all six of the hijackers were killed as were three hostages. The leader of the assault was also killed. One hostage was unaccounted for. She had been taken to Mulago Hospital prior to the assault and later killed on Idi Amin's orders.^{[citation needed]}
  

[edit] 1980s

• On 18 January 1984, an explosion in the cargo hold of a Boeing 747 en route from Karachi, Pakistan, to Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, shortly after departing Karachi blew a hole in the right rear cargo hold. The resulting loss of cabin pressure necessitated an immediate descent to 5,000 feet (1,500 m). The aircraft returned to Karachi without any fatalities among the 261 occupants (15 crew and 246 passengers).^[68]
  

• On 26 June 1988, Air France flight 296, Airbus A320-111 (registration F-GFKC) crashed near the airfield of Mulhouse Habsheim, in the Franco-German border region of Alsace. The accident occurred during an airshow while the flight deck crew was performing a flypast at low height and speed. The aircraft overflew the airfield in good weather. Seconds later the aircraft struck treetops behind the runway and crashed into a forest, as a result of flying too low and too slow. Three passengers died and about 50 were injured.^[69]
  

[edit] 1990s

• On 24 December 1994, Air France flight 8969, an Airbus A300B2-1C (registration F-GBEC) was hijacked in Houari Boumedienne Airport in Algiers, Algeria, by four terrorists who belonged to the Armed Islamic Group. The terrorists apparently intended to crash the plane over the Eiffel Tower on Boxing Day. After a failed attempt to leave Marseille following a confrontational firefight between the terrorists and the GIGN French Special Forces, the result was the death of all four terrorists. (Snipers on the terminal front's roof shot dead two of the terrorists. The other two terrorists died as a result of gunshots in the cabin after approximately 20 minutes.) Three hostages including a Vietnamese diplomat were executed, 229 hostages survived, many of them wounded by shrapnel. The almost 15-year-old aircraft was written off.^{[citation needed]}
  

• On 5 September 1996, turbulence caused injuries to three passengers on a Boeing 747 in mid-air near Ouagadougou, Burkina Faso. One died later from injuries received from an in-flight film projection screen. ^[70][71]
  

• On 20 April 1998, the Air France flight from Bogotá's Eldorado Airport, Colombia, to Quito, Ecuador, using an aircraft leased from TAME and flown by Ecuadorian crew, crashed into a mountain near Bogotá. All 43 passengers and 10 crew died.^[72][73]
  

• On 5 March 1999, an ex-UTA Boeing 747-2B3F (SCD) freighter (registration F-GPAN) carrying a revenue load of 66 tons of cargo on flight AF6745 from Paris Charles de Gaulle to Madras Meenambakkam, India, via Karachi, Pakistan and Bangalore HAL Airport, India, crash-landed, caught fire and burned out. Meenambakkam ATC had cleared the aircraft for an ILS approach to the airport's runway 07. The crew abandoned the approach due to technical difficulties. The aircraft circled to attempt a second approach. At the end of the second approach, the aircraft's nose struck the runway while touching down because its nose gear was either not down or not locked. The plane skidded and came to rest 7,000 feet (2,100 m) down the 13,050 ft. runway. After it had come to a standstill, the crew noticed smoke on the flight deck and began to extinguish the flames. Soon after, flames erupted in the aircraft's front section. One crew member managed to escape from the flight deck via a rope ladder. The remaining four crew members were rescued by the airport fire service from the rear, before the flames engulfed the entire aircraft. The fire service was unable to extinguish the fire and the aircraft burned out.^[74][75]
  

[edit] 2000s

• On 25 July 2000, Air France flight 4590, a Concorde (registration F-BTSC) charter departing from De Gaulle airport in Paris bound for New York's JFK Airport crashed in to a hotel just after takeoff in Gonesse, France. All 109 people on board died, along with four people on the ground. According to the accident investigation report, the probable cause was the destruction of one of the aircraft's main wheel tires, as a result of passing at high speed over a part lost by a pre-departing aircraft during the takeoff run. The piercing of one of the fuel tanks by a piece of the exploding tire ignited the leaking jet fuel and caused a loss of thrust in engine number one and two in quick succession.^[76]
  

• Flight 358 at Toronto Pearson International Airport On 2 August 2005, Air France flight 358 overshot the runway at Toronto Pearson International Airport during a thunderstorm. The plane continued for 300 metres before coming to rest at the bottom of a ravine at the end of the runway adjacent to Highway 401. All 297 passengers and 12 crew survived but the plane was completely destroyed by fire. The investigation predominately blamed pilot error when faced with the severe weather conditions. Class action law suits over the incident are ongoing.^{[citation needed]}
  

• On 1 June 2009, Air France flight 447, an Airbus A330-203 (registration F-GZCP) from Rio de Janeiro to Paris with 228 people onboard reportedly lost contact with air traffic control while over the Atlantic Ocean, 300km (186 miles) north-east of the Brazilian city of Natal ^[77]. French radio stations have also reported that Air France have lost all hope for the survival of the aircraft.
  

[<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Air_France&action=edit&section=44" title="Edit section: Hijackings">edit] Hijackings

Air France has been the target of several hijackings. These hijackings occurred in the following sequence:

• 1973 Marseille
  
• 1976 Benghazi (Operation Entebbe) - see below - and Ho Chi Minh City
  
• 1977 Benghazi
  
• 1983 Geneva
  
• 1984 Geneva, twice
  
• 1989 Algiers
  
• 1993 Nice
  
• 1994 Algiers - see above
  
• 1999 Paris.
  

Edited June 2, 2009 by DaleBlue

[GungaDin]

^^^ ^^^ A feeble attempt to defend a shonky Thai airline and it's CEO.

I think DALEblue should declare his interest.

[CFIT]

1 crash is their history, and it is banned.

Shall Thailand ban AirFrance? Their history is not exactly clean. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France

Mods please remove the post above , it is irrelevant.

Dale Blue , why don't you start a new thread, except I doubt Air France is an acceptable topic on this forum that is about THAILAND.

This thread is about 1-2-Go being banned which means if you are European and fly 1-2 Go, your travelers insurance will not cover you.

[Garry]

I have a nice piccy of one of Air Asia's flying junk piles (my first and last flight with Air Asia) where the month old looking gaffa tape was peeling of the engine nacelle and the corrosion and dirt was starting to show through...must find it and post it up.

[ubonjoe]

1 crash is their history, and it is banned.

Shall Thailand ban AirFrance? Their history is not exactly clean. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France

Mods please remove the post above , it is irrelevant.

Dale Blue , why don't you start a new thread, except I doubt Air France is an acceptable topic on this forum that is about THAILAND.

This thread is about 1-2-Go being banned which means if you are European and fly 1-2 Go, your travelers insurance will not cover you.

It will not be removed. It is relevant to the topic.

[GungaDin]

I agree with ujoe.

It's a good example of stupidity.

I guess daleblue will now list every airline's misfortune since 1929 to try to defend a discredited Udom!

.

Edited June 2, 2009 by GungaDin

[Tigs]

1 crash is their history, and it is banned.

Shall Thailand ban AirFrance? Their history is not exactly clean. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France

Mods please remove the post above , it is irrelevant.

Dale Blue , why don't you start a new thread, except I doubt Air France is an acceptable topic on this forum that is about THAILAND.

This thread is about 1-2-Go being banned which means if you are European and fly 1-2 Go, your travelers insurance will not cover you.

It will not be removed. It is relevant to the topic.

Ubonjoe

Far be it for me to argue with a Mod, however I find your comment out of order. I earn a living now as a specialist in Airline safety, in particular the Human Performance elements of flying. The incidents quoted by Daleblue from Wiki are in no way even remotely relevant to this topic. Please explain their relevance I am intrigued. A collection of incidents attributable to Hijackings, catastrophic failings of mechanical systems etc dating from the 50's with an airline that has flown literally millions of times more than one-2-go. People are not calling for one-2-go to be banned because of a single accident, it is the airlines blatant disregard for rules and regulations that are in place to protect the fee paying passenger, that are the root cause of the problem. The CEO has displayed a continuing disregard for the consequences of the airlines poor attitude to safety and comparisons to Air France in this context are totally irrelevant.

Edited June 2, 2009 by Tigs

[DaleBlue]

All I am saying is that people here are stereotype:

Asian/African airline crash: Must be poor maintenainace and stupid and greedy Chinese owners

European / US airline crash: 99.99% certain that it is an act of god (the weather).

Why don't we be neutral and do some stat. For a start, number of death per billion km person. Or number of death per thousand take off etc. I am quite certain that you will find that Eastern airlines fair much better than Western airlines.

Take one good example. AirAsia, after all time never have a crash which cause live. Can any airlines in the west come close to a clean and perfect record?

[Tigs]

All I am saying is that people here are stereotype:

Asian/African airline crash: Must be poor maintenainace and stupid and greedy Chinese owners

European / US airline crash: 99.99% certain that it is an act of god (the weather).

Why don't we be neutral and do some stat. For a start, number of death per billion km person. Or number of death per thousand take off etc. I am quite certain that you will find that Eastern airlines fair much better than Western airlines.

Take one good example. AirAsia, after all time never have a crash which cause live. Can any airlines in the west come close to a clean and perfect record?

Daleblue

Whilst I admire your attempt at avoiding stereotyping, you have picked the wrong subject to fight your cause. I am too busy right now to start quoting statistics, however I can if required. In the industry the facts are very plain and simple. Those airlines that adhere strictly to ICAO, FAA, EASA and CAA regulations and maintenance procedures are extremely safe and the likelyhood of them having an accident resulting from Human Error is low and the likelyhood of an accident caused by catastrophic failure of an aircraft system is even lower. Airlines that ignore the regulations concerning maintenance and ignore the fatigue implications on crew who are forced to work more hours than are allowed by the regulatory bodies, and ignore mandatory training requirements and standards are VERY likely to have an accident caused by one of those cause group factors. African domestic airlines are the most dangerous in the world, with domestic Russian, Chinese and a number of Asian countries following in the list. This is not a reflection on the general population of those countries, but a reflection on the profiteering and corruption of the respective airline management.

[Tigs]

Asian/African airline crash: Must be poor maintenainace and stupid and greedy Chinese owners

European / US airline crash: 99.99% certain that it is an act of god (the weather).

Isn't that exactly what Udom said?

[Burr]

sub

[Tigs]

What does 'sub' mean?

[brahmburgers]

why hasn't the EU banned Egypt Air? Below is an excerpt from an article about one of their fateful flights.

between the lines Joseph Farah Another look at Egypt Air crash

© 2009 WorldNetDaily.com

full article

Nearly two years before the Sept. 11 terror attacks, Egypt Air Flight 990 took off from Kennedy Airport bound for Cairo and inexplicably crashed into the Atlantic off Nantucket, Mass., killing all 217 aboard.

U.S. investigators determined the relief co-pilot, Gamil el-Batouty, deliberately crashed the plane. Those findings were released just five months before Sept. 11.

Batouty's last words, according to investigators, were in the form of Muslim prayer in Arabic: "I rely on Allah." He said it 11 times before the aircraft began its sudden descent from 33,000 feet to 16,000 feet.

The auto-pilot was switched off before the steep dive and both engines were shut off. Mechanical failure was ruled out.

. . . . . end of excerpt . . . . . . .

BB's rumination: should an airline be banned if one of their co-pilots deliberately crashed its plane full of travelers? It doesn't speak well about Egypt Air's screening process, if they allow a suicidal pilot to take the controls, and the main pilot was either a part of the plot or was rendered helpless (locked out of the cabin? did he have no key to the door?).

[LostBro]

why hasn't the EU banned Egypt Air? Below is an excerpt from an article about one of their fateful flights.

Folks, let's not turn this thread into the stupidest rumination on commercial airline accidents ever written.

Safe aviation requires a focus on safety, significant financial investments, skilled and responsible aviators, governmental support (in airports, air traffic control, rescue), a willingness to ground pilots who are unsafe due to various health reasons (see Egypt Air) and, I'm sure, other important factors. Orient Thai/One-Two-Go pilots regularly significantly exceeded maximum flight hours (and continued to do so after the crash until their flight logs were released to the internet forcing the DCA to censor them), their pilots were censored for fraudulent check rides - ie skills training and refreshers - by the DCA (again eventually after the material was put on the internet), the airline had absolutely no safety program in place before the crash (again eventually censored by the DCA), and gave the DCA and the NTSB fraudulent information related to the crash in an attempt to hide the working conditions at the airline.

With regard to the airport - ie government responsibility, the runway is too narrow and has an obstuction - the hill struck by OG269 - beside it. This is a significant failure to meet international standards, and certainly contributed to the crash, though an un-piloted jet is eventually going to strike something.

With regard to the rescue - again government responsibility, the rescue wasn't. The crash was called in as an aircraft "sliding" off the runway, so the rescue teams took their sweet time arriving. Oh, and they were called because the simulation at the airport 3 days before had used up all the water and foam at the airport fire station. It should have been refilled and/or all incoming aircraft should have been warned that there was inadequate rescue capacity per international safety standards. Again, this surely cost lives.

One-Two-Go and hopefully eventually Orient Thai have been banned by the UK because the issues with the airline as a whole clearly indicate significant safety concerns. The issues are clear from the DCA's own report when grounding Orient Thai/One-Two-Go and in this latest OG269 crash summary released on Monday.

Edited June 2, 2009 by LostBro

[Tigs]

First of all, what Lostbro said!

Secondly

why hasn't the EU banned Egypt Air? Below is an excerpt from an article about one of their fateful flights.

between the lines Joseph Farah Another look at Egypt Air crash

© 2009 WorldNetDaily.com

full article

Nearly two years before the Sept. 11 terror attacks, Egypt Air Flight 990 took off from Kennedy Airport bound for Cairo and inexplicably crashed into the Atlantic off Nantucket, Mass., killing all 217 aboard.

U.S. investigators determined the relief co-pilot, Gamil el-Batouty, deliberately crashed the plane. Those findings were released just five months before Sept. 11.

Batouty's last words, according to investigators, were in the form of Muslim prayer in Arabic: "I rely on Allah." He said it 11 times before the aircraft began its sudden descent from 33,000 feet to 16,000 feet.

The auto-pilot was switched off before the steep dive and both engines were shut off. Mechanical failure was ruled out.

. . . . . end of excerpt . . . . . . .

BB's rumination: should an airline be banned if one of their co-pilots deliberately crashed its plane full of travelers? It doesn't speak well about Egypt Air's screening process, if they allow a suicidal pilot to take the controls, and the main pilot was either a part of the plot or was rendered helpless (locked out of the cabin? did he have no key to the door?).

The short answer to your question is No! It is impossible to screen for future suicidal tendancies. Should an airline be banned for continually ignoring the rules..Yes!

It is impossible to legislate for a one off act. However on a day to day basis, Egypt Air conform to regulations and are audited. Be careful about labeling the incident you refer to as suicide. That has not been proven, but one thing I can tell you 100% is that if a muslim extremist is about to commit suicide and meet his maker, then there is a specific prayer that is said. Contrary to popular belief it is not Allah Akbhar (God is Great), or any other translation such as 'I rely on Allah' (That would indicate a completely different situation), It is a specific, exactly worded prayer. What the pilot said on the Egypt Air Flight is not what would be said. If a muslim is aware that death is at hand such as in the case of pre planning with a suicide, the last words spoken must be along the lines of " "I bear witness that there is but one God and Allah is his name." It might seem a small detail, but it is incredibly significant.

[Abrak]

I know this is possibly a racist comment that will probably deleted but you do have to wonder about the training of ARab pilots some times. And to the extent that this is deleleted judt remember how everyone is cautious of publishing news that effects Muslims.

About two weeks ago a couple of Air Etihad pilots took command of a brand new Airbus 340-600 the largest passenger plane in the world and immediately ploughed it into a wall with less than an hours flying time on it.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_97xiVJFB8jo/SXi6...-h/etihad02.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_97xiVJFB8jo/SXi6...-h/etihad01.jpg

[harleyclarkey]

I blacklisted them after the Phuket disaster. I was in the hospital with the survivors and it was not a nice place to be.

A friend of mine had a conversation with a pilot of a European airline where it was said the pilots (1-2-Go) were totally undertrained and not up to it. This has unfortunately been borne out all to clearly.

Who to blame? The airline management of course...and the Thai authorities who allowed this to happen.

[Burr]

"Sub" was to subscribe me to this tread!

My Opinion about 3rd world flight crews and why I don’t fly with them.

Ask yourself why most 3rd world airlines have a 1st world pilot in the left seat.

Most 3rd world countries are 3rd world countries because they can obey no rules. The rich steal all and the poor die in street.

Again “MY” Opinion, the minds of most 3rd world people just don’t work like 1st world minds. They have never learned to stand on their feet from the day they are born. I trained my children to stand on their feet and think from the time they were 16 months old and thank God my children are doing well.

Being a responsible person starts the day you are born.

Reference, I live in a 3rd world country (no. 141) so I see backwardness everyday.

Burr

Edited June 3, 2009 by Burr

[CFIT]

All I am saying is that people here are stereotype:

I think you mean " some people stereotype."

Well call me a stereotyping bigot if you must, but;

A ) Thais are a nationality , not a race. (50th time I've written this..)

and;

B ) Safety in Thailand is NOT regarded with as much concern as in western cultures .

Just LOOK around. And this goes for China too. ( btw; The Chinese are not a race either, but a nationality . )

I won't fly ANY Thai airline, because I now know that if a certain American woman isn't scrutinizing them and posting her findings online, Thai DCA won't do its job regulating Thai airlines.

( Nor the US FAA in accurately rating Thai DCA regulatory standings.)

see www.DontFlyThai.Com

( btw; as long as we can bring other airlines onto the thread- Thai Air is STILL looking for a president, still hemorrhaging money and I'm told-still serving those gross, garbage producing box lunches on the short jumps. )

Nor will I fly ANY ASIAN airline other than Malayasia Air and Singapore Air.

Yeah I'm a bigot , A SAFETY BIGOT!

I'll comment Air Asia has some unsafe practices, such as landing slower to save on tire wear , practices that one day, will come back to haunt them.

" Altitude is insurance , speed is life," Old Pilot's saying .

I won't fly them, not just because I think they're unsafe but also because they won't stop spamming my phone with messages.

Edited June 3, 2009 by CFIT

[DaleBlue]

"Sub" was to subscribe me to this tread!

My Opinion about 3rd world flight crews and why I don’t fly with them.

Ask yourself why most 3rd world airlines have a 1st world pilot in the left seat.

Most 3rd world countries are 3rd world countries because they can obey no rules. The rich steal all and the poor die in street.

Again “MY” Opinion, the minds of most 3rd world people just don’t work like 1st world minds. They have never learned to stand on their feet from the day they are born. I trained my children to stand on their feet and think from the time they were 16 months old and thank God my children are doing well.

Being a responsible person starts the day you are born.

Reference, I live in a 3rd world country (no. 141) so I see backwardness everyday.

Burr

If 3d world airlines is so bad, why does AirAsia have perfect safety records?

[Tigs]

"Sub" was to subscribe me to this tread!

My Opinion about 3rd world flight crews and why I don't fly with them.

Ask yourself why most 3rd world airlines have a 1st world pilot in the left seat.

Most 3rd world countries are 3rd world countries because they can obey no rules. The rich steal all and the poor die in street.

Again "MY" Opinion, the minds of most 3rd world people just don't work like 1st world minds. They have never learned to stand on their feet from the day they are born. I trained my children to stand on their feet and think from the time they were 16 months old and thank God my children are doing well.

Being a responsible person starts the day you are born.

Reference, I live in a 3rd world country (no. 141) so I see backwardness everyday.

Burr

If 3d world airlines is so bad, why does AirAsia have perfect safety records?

Maybe they follow the rules. Maybe they are lucky, Maybe it's just a matter of time.

[DaleBlue]

"Sub" was to subscribe me to this tread!

My Opinion about 3rd world flight crews and why I don't fly with them.

Ask yourself why most 3rd world airlines have a 1st world pilot in the left seat.

Most 3rd world countries are 3rd world countries because they can obey no rules. The rich steal all and the poor die in street.

Again "MY" Opinion, the minds of most 3rd world people just don't work like 1st world minds. They have never learned to stand on their feet from the day they are born. I trained my children to stand on their feet and think from the time they were 16 months old and thank God my children are doing well.

Being a responsible person starts the day you are born.

Reference, I live in a 3rd world country (no. 141) so I see backwardness everyday.

Burr

If 3d world airlines is so bad, why does AirAsia have perfect safety records?

Maybe they follow the rules. Maybe they are lucky, Maybe it's just a matter of time.

Now I reverse my question. Why does American/British/French/German/Japanese/Singapore Airlines crash with many many people dead?

Do they not follow the rules. Maybe they are unlucky, Maybe time is up for them?

[LostBro]

DaleBlue: It sounds as if you prefer to fly Orient Thai/One-Two-Go exclusively. Certainly none of us wish to stop you.

[LostBro]

For those interested in reading the report, a rough translation can be found here: www.InvestigateUdom.com. See the link at the bottom of the page.

[CFIT]

If 3d world airlines is so bad, why does AirAsia have perfect safety records?

Because it doesn't, now you're posting outright lies

See

http://airasiaannus.blogspot.com/2007/10/o...t-consider.html

For some rather eye opening revelations on Air Asia and other budget airlines.

In Air Asia's infancy, even with pictures and eyewitness accounts this incident was never covered in the Malaysian press. (Remember, SE Asian press is not known for reporting bad news.)

On November 7, 2004, AirAsia Flight 104 had a runway accident, according to an AirAsia statement and reported by technical site B737.org.uk here. The B737.Org article says the accident left two passengers and the two pilots with minor injuries. The technical website report continues: 'According to passengers, there were moments of pandemonium on the plane as they pushed and shoved each other towards the emergency exits during the evacuation.

http://news.indahnesia.com/item/200803050/...ang_airport.php

PALEMBANG, 05 March 2008 - A plane that is owned by Air Asia, with flight number QZ 7661, has made an emergency landing at the airport of Sultan Mahmud Badaruddin II in Palembang, on Sumatra island. The emergency landing was made around 17:30 local time on Tuesday. The Boeing 737-300 with 99 passengers and crew on board was traveling from Jakarta to Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia) when they had to make an emergency landing because of a broken window.

According to Rudi Rums, engineering staff at Air Asia, one window broke when the plane was flying at 35,000 feet. The pilot, Farid Iskandar, decided directly to put the plane on the ground in an emergency landing. At this moment engineers from Air Asia together with people from the airport are still working on the broken front window of the plane.

Well call me a stereotyping bigot if you must, but;

A ) Thais are a nationality , not a race. (50th time I've written this..)

and;

B ) Safety in Thailand is NOT regarded with as much concern as in western cultures .

Just LOOK around. And this goes for China too. ( btw; The Chinese are not a race either, but a nationality . )

I won't fly ANY Thai airline because I now know that if a certain American woman isn't scrutinizing them and posting her findings online, Thai DCA won't do its job regulating Thai airlines.

( And neither will US FAA do its job in accurately rating Thai DCA regulatory standings.)

see www.DontFlyThai.Com

Nor will I fly ANY ASIAN airline other than Malayasia Air and Singapore Air.

Let me amend this to any South East Asian airline other than Malaysia and Singapore Airlines .

JAL and Korean Airlines are acceptable airlines, BUT Korean Air had a dismal record for a long time, UNTIL they got in some western management and training practices..

Yeah I'm a bigot , A SAFETY BIGOT!

I'll comment Air Asia has some unsafe practices, such as landing slower to save on tire wear , practices that one day, will come back to haunt them.

" Altitude is insurance , speed is life," Old Pilot's saying .

I won't fly them, not just because I think they're unsafe but also because they won't stop spamming my phone with messages.

HI Lost Bro !!

Edited June 4, 2009 by CFIT