Arrest Warrants Issued For 14 Red Shirt Leaders And Thaksin

[ThNiner]

In most democratic countries so do courts which politcal leaders are not immune from. Also add in various impeachment means. That is why checks and balances are as much part of democracy as elections.

Exactly, checks and balances are crucial for any type of democracy. The PAD has been calling for all these checks and balances in their new politics as well. It's just simply an absurd lie to accuse them of not advocating checks and balances. That's actually always been one of the main arguments the PAD had against Thaksin's system.

[ThNiner]

Democracy is mainly about elections and a 1-person-1 vote.

This is simply wrong and totally indefensible.

Crislarsson is welcome to show the source of this "definition".

He's right that we expect democracy to be "liberal democracy". Ok, he got us, but since we don't want "illiberal democracy", we are not accepting it, no matter what the label or definition is offered.

>>>>>

I'd personally go with "government of the people, by the people, and for the people", btw.

If democracy was really only about 1-person-1 vote, then they would have to say that Iraq under Suddam had always been democratic as well.

[Thanh-BKK]

If democracy was really only about 1-person-1 vote, then they would have to say that Iraq under Suddam had always been democratic as well.

Correct.

As was GDR - one person one vote they had, "yes" or "no" to the ruling (and only existing) party SED. "No" votes were considered invalid, and "invalid" votes were counted as "yes". No wonder SED got 99.x percent "yes" in every election but hey, "democratic" it was (they didn't pay for votes, no really, they didn't).

Oh, and whoever voted "no" was subject to incarceration or other nice things. But that's not part of the democratic process.

Regarding the mentioned "democratic means to eject an elected bad leader", the problem with Thaksin is that he was on the way to disable those means. As he once said "i don't care for vote of non-confidence" (or some such) it should be clear that he was, although indeed voted quite democratically at first, not willing to EVER let go of his power again - unless removed by force (what the coup did).

If he would have gained total control over the military by placing his family members and high school buddies in key positions (as done in other places) there would have been no way of deposing him, even if every person in the country would be against him. Democracy? Not something he'd care for. He was on the way to create a "Third Reich" style country right here, with himself being president/dictator with full control over army, police and courts.

Best regards....

Thanh

[dbrenn]

If democracy was really only about 1-person-1 vote, then they would have to say that Iraq under Suddam had always been democratic as well.

Correct.

As was GDR - one person one vote they had, "yes" or "no" to the ruling (and only existing) party SED. "No" votes were considered invalid, and "invalid" votes were counted as "yes". No wonder SED got 99.x percent "yes" in every election but hey, "democratic" it was (they didn't pay for votes, no really, they didn't).

Oh, and whoever voted "no" was subject to incarceration or other nice things. But that's not part of the democratic process.

Regarding the mentioned "democratic means to eject an elected bad leader", the problem with Thaksin is that he was on the way to disable those means. As he once said "i don't care for vote of non-confidence" (or some such) it should be clear that he was, although indeed voted quite democratically at first, not willing to EVER let go of his power again - unless removed by force (what the coup did).

If he would have gained total control over the military by placing his family members and high school buddies in key positions (as done in other places) there would have been no way of deposing him, even if every person in the country would be against him. Democracy? Not something he'd care for. He was on the way to create a "Third Reich" style country right here, with himself being president/dictator with full control over army, police and courts.

Best regards....

Thanh

Eh? But Thailand has always had lots of different parties to vote for. It's silly trying to compare it to the GDR. And on the subject of disabling means to democratic process, the PAD went public in its ambitions to curtail the voting rights of people they described as 'uneducated'. What kind of democracy do you call that?

[grandpops]

Right dbrenn.

The PAD were actively stating on BBC, CNN, Al JAzeera et all during the airport seige that northern Thais were uneducated and too stupid to vote.

Long forgotten now by the PAD loyalists but that was their policy statement at that time.

Funny how they were too stupid to vote three years ago when they elected Thaksin, but not too stupid to vote on the referendum which was pushed down their throats.

Is the referendum therefore not valid as stupid people voted in favour of it or are there different stupids?

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi.

As i stated he "was on the way to...". In The GDR there were a whole bunch of parties at the beginning, too. Then the process was forced mergers, who didn't want to merge was disbanded.... until in the end there was one left, aptly named SED (Sozialistische Einheitspartei Deutschlands, i.e. United (!) Socialist party of Germany). United as in "including several formerly independent parties".

And regarding PAD's statement, be honest - people who don't care who's running the show and vote for whoever PAYS the most per vote - are they what democracy (!) needs..? Think for a while before answering that particular question.

Yes, they voted for Thaksin because he paid them to vote.... just for those who still didn't know that.

Best regards.....

Thanh

[chrislarsson]

Democracy is mainly about elections and a 1-person-1 vote.

If democracy was really only about 1-person-1 vote, then they would have to say that Iraq under Suddam had always been democratic as well.

I didn't say that elections that are not open, free and fair is democratic.

Edited May 10, 2009 by chrislarsson

[chrislarsson]

Democracy is mainly about elections and a 1-person-1 vote. If the elected leader is corrupt and violator of human rights, it does not make it less democratic.

It's not a confusion over definitions, it's just bullshit, pardon my French.

When you resort to swearing, it indicates that you have run out of things to say. The point seems valid to me - a democracy can elect a leader who is flawed, if that's what the people want. In such a case, the people always retain the power to eject that leader. Not so under the yellow mantra of curtailing the vote of the 'uneducated'. Only they and their chosen faithful would have the right to choose who governs the rest of us. Scary stuff. Who trusts them?

The definition is quite important to the discussion of democracy.

For sure, all modern democracies also include freedom of religion and speech, separation of powers, checks and balances, equality under the law, impartial courts and tribunals, and separation of religion and state. These things can be seen as the goals for a country.

There is today a strong belief that democracy (i.e. free and open elections) will lead to these goals. But looking at Europe, most countries had already implemented these goals when introducing democracy. This indicates that we got it the wrong way around. Liberty leads to democracy, and not the opposite.

Pretty much all recent successful democracies have started with economic reforms first and then introduced democracy when mature enough (e.g. Chile and Mexico). The failures have introduced elections first, and then got trapped in a cycle of coups (e.g. Thailand).

Edited May 10, 2009 by chrislarsson

[HagenvonTronje]

As i stated he "was on the way to...". In The GDR there were a whole bunch of parties at the beginning, too. Then the process was forced mergers, who didn't want to merge was disbanded.... until in the end there was one left, aptly named SED (Sozialistische Einheitspartei Deutschlands, i.e. United (!) Socialist party

...

no, it wasn't that way. if you have no clue, don't start to talk.

on the ballot paper have been a lot of names, from different parties, christian democrat party, national demcrat party, liberal party and of course the SED (commies and social democrats united) and next to the parties a lot of massorganisation too, such as youth organisation, labor union, cultural association, woman rights foundation, the organisation of Ethnic minorities, the leage of farmer ans peasants.

that made a long list of names and they all run under the block of what was called NATIONALE FRONT.

that was a little bit like the white shirts of nowadays in thailand. from above organised and ordered 'harmony' and peace hypocrisy.

[ThNiner]

free and open elections

Go read the court's verdict that dissolved TRT (a lot of details in it), and you might have some sort of enlightenment about Thaksin's democracy (hopefully).

You want Thaksin back because you want free and open elections? Seriously?

[chrislarsson]

free and open elections

Go read the court's verdict that dissolved TRT (a lot of details in it), and you might have some sort of enlightenment about Thaksin's democracy (hopefully).

You want Thaksin back because you want free and open elections? Seriously?

Where did I say that the election in Thailand was free and open?

And since when did courts become the holders of the absolute truth? Courts have abused their power for as long as politicians.

[HagenvonTronje]

red shirt violating traffic laws in pattaya. 11.04.2009

[hammered]

Quite what an uninformed debate on elections 101 has to do with arrest warrants for rioters is quite beyond me. It seems some people are more obsessed with distracting from the substantive topic than in discussing it. I am sure there a few politcs 101 course around for those interested in learning. Surely there is something worth discussing in protest leaders calling for a revolution, the hunting down of the pM and a few others and then having arrest warrants issued for said actions rather than a debate on "democracy" at a level reserved for high school.

In the meantime.........

[HagenvonTronje]

In the meantime.........

why not, as requested a couple of times, help to collect the jigsaw pieces and hard facts and evidence and add same content here.

are one of the thousands that have seen Abhisit in that car, did you take a pic.?

[chrislarsson]

Quite what an uninformed debate on elections 101 has to do with arrest warrants for rioters is quite beyond me. It seems some people are more obsessed with distracting from the substantive topic than in discussing it. I am sure there a few politcs 101 course around for those interested in learning. Surely there is something worth discussing in protest leaders calling for a revolution, the hunting down of the pM and a few others and then having arrest warrants issued for said actions rather than a debate on "democracy" at a level reserved for high school.

In the meantime.........

Sorry to insult your intelligence. But as PAD (People's Alliance for Democracy) is not supporting elections, there must be some people not aware of the definition.

[TAWP]

Quite what an uninformed debate on elections 101 has to do with arrest warrants for rioters is quite beyond me. It seems some people are more obsessed with distracting from the substantive topic than in discussing it. I am sure there a few politcs 101 course around for those interested in learning. Surely there is something worth discussing in protest leaders calling for a revolution, the hunting down of the pM and a few others and then having arrest warrants issued for said actions rather than a debate on "democracy" at a level reserved for high school.

In the meantime.........

Sorry to insult your intelligence. But as PAD (People's Alliance for Democracy) is not supporting elections, there must be some people not aware of the definition.

Uh, listen, I am not supporting any nutcase yellow idea, but they have never been opposed to the concept of elections.

Stating lies doesn't gain you points.

[sriracha john]

Words, words, and more words. Do these jokers ever show any proof of anything at all? All week Jatuporn has been opening his mouth

and now in their astounding and continuing efforts to blame anyone and everyone ELSE for THEIR own disastrous Black Songkran fiasco... yet another Red Mouth-Breathing Leader seeks to blame the Red demonstrators...

Edited May 10, 2009 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

excerpt from:

Leaders say red shirts pressed for victory

The rush to cause upheaval was the main drawback with the red-shirt movement the last time, but the next one should be more long-term, Jaran Ditapichai, a leader of the red shirts, said yesterday.

Jaran was speaking at a forum, "Uplifting the Red Movement", held by the Progressive Society Assembly at the Political Science faculty of Chulalongkorn University.

Jaran said that rushing to cause upheaval was the wrong approach, adding that the red-shirt leaders were pressured by the demonstrators to rush into taking action against the government.

-- The Nation 2009-05-11

[HagenvonTronje]

red shirts violating traffic laws in Bangkok. 13.04.2009

[sriracha john]

Flaming post removed

Edited May 11, 2009 by LivinginKata
Flaming removed

[animatic]

excerpt from:

Leaders say red shirts pressed for victory

The rush to cause upheaval was the main drawback with the red-shirt movement the last time, but the next one should be more long-term, Jaran Ditapichai, a leader of the red shirts, said yesterday.

Jaran was speaking at a forum, "Uplifting the Red Movement", held by the Progressive Society Assembly at the Political Science faculty of Chulalongkorn University.

Jaran said that rushing to cause upheaval was the wrong approach, adding that the red-shirt leaders were pressured by the demonstrators to rush into taking action against the government.

-- The Nation 2009-05-11

Right blame your followers for your own mistakes in stratagy... pathetic.

[Cayenne]

excerpt from:

Leaders say red shirts pressed for victory

The rush to cause upheaval was the main drawback with the red-shirt movement the last time, but the next one should be more long-term, Jaran Ditapichai, a leader of the red shirts, said yesterday.

Jaran was speaking at a forum, "Uplifting the Red Movement", held by the Progressive Society Assembly at the Political Science faculty of Chulalongkorn University.

Jaran said that rushing to cause upheaval was the wrong approach, adding that the red-shirt leaders were pressured by the demonstrators to rush into taking action against the government.

-- The Nation 2009-05-11

He will probably try to imply that it was the fake demonstrators caused them to rush their botched attempt. Of course, we all know by now that the real reds are all peace-loving and benign people

[chrislarsson]

Sorry to insult your intelligence. But as PAD (People's Alliance for Democracy) is not supporting elections, there must be some people not aware of the definition.

Uh, listen, I am not supporting any nutcase yellow idea, but they have never been opposed to the concept of elections.

Stating lies doesn't gain you points.

Sondhi and the PAD advocate the scrapping of the one-man-one-vote system in Thailand and say only 30 per cent of parliament's members should be directly elected by the people. The remaining 70 per cent should be chosen from various occupations and professions and be appointed, they say.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/world/11/26/08/...e-thailands-pad

Edited May 11, 2009 by chrislarsson

[HagenvonTronje]

residents of petchaburi road legitimately insist to respect the traffic laws. 13.04.2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWxiZT8s684

[TAWP]

Sorry to insult your intelligence. But as PAD (People's Alliance for Democracy) is not supporting elections, there must be some people not aware of the definition.

Uh, listen, I am not supporting any nutcase yellow idea, but they have never been opposed to the concept of elections.

Stating lies doesn't gain you points.

Sondhi and the PAD advocate the scrapping of the one-man-one-vote system in Thailand and say only 30 per cent of parliament's members should be directly elected by the people. The remaining 70 per cent should be chosen from various occupations and professions and be appointed, they say.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/world/11/26/08/...e-thailands-pad

So they clearly advocate the use of elections, they are arguing over the amount of influence they should have in the appointment of MPs.

Heck, even the appointment of the 70% would be with elections from within their respective fields...

[sriracha john]

Distortion and lies follow deceit and lost credibility

Thaksin Shinawatra has been lying low in silence for quite some time, probably still licking his wounds and planning new political tricks to regain some credibility in the international community. It was a big blow when his Thai passport was cancelled. He is now the holder of a Nicaraguan diplomatic passport. Nobody knows whether he retains the same name.

Indeed it must look odd to his friends if he happens to show up in, say, Cambodia for a round of golf with Prime Minister Hun Sen. At the immigration point, the square-faced fugitive, previously holding a Thai diplomatic passport, would now present his new Nicaraguan passport. If that did not suffice, he could also produce a passport from Montenegro.

Such passports don't come cheap, for sure. They are either procured by the power of money or through connections with people in high places, usually because of past favours and business deals. Thaksin's ability to stay in Dubai and the UAE is mainly due to his strong financial connections.

Nevertheless, Thaksin will not give up the struggle to regain his frozen wealth and his political power in Thailand. But his chances are slim, judging from the weakening strength of his followers. He still hopes that if a general election is held, the Puea Thai Party will get back into government.

For the time being, his red-shirted campaigners must continue their role as a pressure group outside Parliament, while hecklers in the House will also try hard to shake the Abhisit government through guile and gimmick after all other resources and tactics have been exhausted.

The red-shirted ringleaders and voices in the House have used rhetoric and half-truths as key weapons to rouse public support. That worked to a certain extent in the recent sizeable public rallies - until they resorted to violence, riots and attempted murder. Prime Minister Abhisit was an intended victim. It was indeed a close call.

From half-truths and tirades, come distortion and lies. The red-shirted ringleaders will use these methods to retain the support of Thaksin's admirers, whose numbers are thinning pretty quickly. The violence has alienated the public, some of whom might otherwise have been sympathetic to their dubious cause. After the suffering due to street closures and riots, and the threats to blow up gas trucks in the city, there is no new positive view towards Thaksin and his cronies and followers.

The latest distortion and ludicrous claim was made by a red-shirt leader, who told the public that Prime Minister Abhisit was not in the limousine that was surrounded and attacked by red-shirted thugs inside the compound of the Interior Ministry on April 12. Another claim was that the red-shirted attackers were actually soldiers who had mingled among the protesters and were intent on causing trouble.

That became a selling point to draw a red-shirted crowd to a rally on Sunday. Full exposure with a video clip was promised in order to prove that Abhisit was not in the car at the Interior Ministry. It worked well for those who were willing to hear more falsehoods. It did not matter that the fellow who made the claim has been proved a liar a number of times.

There was no solid proof. The promised video clip was a short and sloppy cut. Earlier, Abhisit's personal spokesman showed what he said was a series of photos showing what actually happened during the violence.

During the red-shirt rally at the weekend, one of the leaders asserted that the heavy downpour that wreaked havoc at the site was actually artificial rain prepared by the government to disrupt the event. Not many people seemed to care enough to consider whether it was a sick joke or another lie.

So, from guile, Thaksin's cronies and campaigners have resorted to distortion and lies, and now they have lost whatever credibility they might have had at their peak. They look more and more like a public nuisance. Then there is also the issue of long legal battles and pending criminal charges for instigating the unrest and violence during the Songkran festival.

We have experienced political and marketing gimmicks from Thaksin and his supporters when their populist policies captured the hearts and minds of the poor. Not anymore. People have become educated about his abuse of power, massive corruption, misdeeds and cronyism. What is left now is disinformation, distortion and lies through public statements, press interviews and protest rallies. But we can expect to hear their battle cry, full of spin and propaganda, continue for a while yet.

Truth alone cannot help counter these sinister acts of deceit. The sincerity of politicians is hard to prove. But like it or not, that is what Abhisit and his key Cabinet members have to show - through their own credibility. His honest deeds can silence the lies only when the people are given the facts and the truth.

-- The Nation 2009-05-12

[sriracha john]

Singer-turned-politician former MP from Banned Thai Rak Thai Party and current Red Shirt Leader Arisman Phongruangrong

Arisman Ponggruengrong, before (music CD cover) and after

More red-shirt leaders turn themselves in

Three red-shirt leaders were released on bail after they turned themselves in yesterday to face charges in connection with the Songkran Day riots.

Red-shirt leaders Arisman Pongruangrong and Adisorn Piangket surrendered at the Metropolitan Police Bureau headquarters yesterday morning, while Surachai "Saedan" Danwattananusorn surrendered at a police station in Nakhon Si Thammarat.

Police later released Arisman and Adisorn on Bt500,000 bail each after they agreed to three conditions: not to leave the country, not to organise political rallies or incite any unrest and not to interfere with police investigation.

Phuket Locals Show Opposition to Possible Red-shirt Disruption of ASEAN Summit

Phuket citizens and people living nearby will be meeting on the 22nd of this month to plan their opposition to the red-shirts who, they fear, may disrupt the upcoming ASEAN Summit.

Arisaman Pongruangrong, one of the red-shirt leaders, has said that there would be a gathering of red-shirts to protest against the ASEAN Summit which will be attended by leaders of the 10 ASEAN member countries and six dialogue partners next month.

A Democrat Party MP, Rewat Arrerob, said that Phuket citizens are now ready to host the summit.

He added that people in Phuket are worried about the red-shirts protesters, who they see as having caused the turmoil at the summit in Pattaya last month.

Phuket residents said that the red-shirts did not act like Thais. The people of Phuket are looking forward to the benefits their community will receive from the summit and the recognition from the two billion people living in Asia.

At 4 p.m. on the 22nd this month, Phuket citizens and residents of neighboring areas will hold a meeting at Sapanhin area in the province to demonstrate their readiness to host the summit. They say they are anxiously awaiting their opportunity to welcome the guests who will be attending the meeting.

A successful ASEAN summit will not only restore the country’s image but will also restore investor confidence and spur the Phuket economy, as the area's main source of revenue is tourism. Rewat said those who want to ruin the country by disrupting the summit should express their differences in ideas on politics by other means.

-- Tan Network 2009-05-12

[chrislarsson]

Uh, listen, I am not supporting any nutcase yellow idea, but they have never been opposed to the concept of elections.

Stating lies doesn't gain you points.

Sondhi and the PAD advocate the scrapping of the one-man-one-vote system in Thailand and say only 30 per cent of parliament's members should be directly elected by the people. The remaining 70 per cent should be chosen from various occupations and professions and be appointed, they say.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/world/11/26/08/...e-thailands-pad

So they clearly advocate the use of elections, they are arguing over the amount of influence they should have in the appointment of MPs.

Heck, even the appointment of the 70% would be with elections from within their respective fields...

Can you explain the role of elections for the appointed 70% of the MPs?

[ThNiner]

Can you explain the role of elections for the appointed 70% of the MPs?

The PAD has changed their stance on that since around the prehistoric age I think. You still wanna talk about it? And if the PAD were so hellbent on being anti-democratic as you purported to, why did they change? Why did they listen to people who questioned or opposed it?

Edited May 12, 2009 by ThNiner

[TAWP]

So they clearly advocate the use of elections, they are arguing over the amount of influence they should have in the appointment of MPs.

Heck, even the appointment of the 70% would be with elections from within their respective fields...

Can you explain the role of elections for the appointed 70% of the MPs?

Try reading my post, it should be quite clear as to what [PAD/some of them] wanted.

Unless you think they would use lottery within the respected fields or go ini-mini-mainie-mo...