Can Cm Shake Off This Trend?

[Harmonica]

Now that I'm here, I can say its nice, nice, nice -- and the people are also nice, nice, nice.

But its also dust, dust, dust and dust everywhere

& smog, smog, smog!!

There is NO beating about the bush and justifying -- CM is one helluva dirty city, air qualitywise!!

The tinge of brown in the distant halo says more than it should.

Live and die in CM? .. from blackened lungs and all the while have a goooood time and a sweet life?

I'm not the allergic type -- but this makes Los Angeles look like a purified zone.

And in all likelihood its going to get worse -- and, in a hurry, it seems.

But, I love it here!! God help me! Dyin ain't much of a livin!

[Darknight]

View from doi suthep in hot season.

[PeaceBlondie]

Coming over the Ping River bridge at 5 p.m. almost every day, I usually get a direct shot of Doi Suthep. Today, it was shrouded in smoke and dust. I got almost to Rim Kahm before I could make out the summit, and still couldn't see the wat. Getting worse and worse.

I stopped wearing my red jacket on the 70 kilometers of daily commuting. The jacket's dirty within ten days. If I don't wear a jacket in the hot season, the dress shirt is soiled when I get to work.

[ThaiPauly]

Chaing Mai may be a bit smoggy and the air quality IN TOWN may not be the healthiest un the world, you been to Bangkok???

I have just moved to CM from there and I can tell you its 10 times cleaner here than there.

Point is what you gonna do about it,? nothing is perfect anywhere.!!

Today crossing the Ping River I saw labourers placing new pots of flowers all over the bridge. They look great. Now there pots can easily be removed by anyone devious enough to do so. But they stay put. You tell me in what other country this would happen? I come from Oxford, England and even that Charming University City has to NAIL everything down.

Take the good with the bad- Chaing Mai is PARADISE - one day our Glorious Leader will resolve the problem

[chanchao]

Darknight: That's still a pretty clear day for the hot season. Like at its worst you can't even see the whole mountain when standing way close to it, like at the airport! Needless to say when looking back down from up there, you see nothing.

It varies a lot though in this season: some days are very clear, others are very hazy. I really wonder what causes it as there's definitely clear spells and hazy spells. And it's not like that weekends are cleared than working days, or any other pattern that I can relate to human activity.

I really think it's also a weather-thing.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[Ajarn]

Darknight: That's still a pretty clear day for the hot season.   Like at its worst you can't even see the whole mountain when standing way close to it, like at the airport!    Needless to say when looking back down from up there, you see nothing.

It varies a lot though in this season: some days are very clear, others are very hazy.  I really wonder what causes it as there's definitely clear spells and hazy spells.  And it's not like that weekends are cleared than working days, or any other pattern that I can relate to human activity.

I really think it's also a weather-thing.

Cheers,

Chanchao

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought the photo was kinda clear, too, but what would be the point of taking a photo of grey nothing.... Might as well call it London

Chnchao, the only times I can remember clear days here are after a after a rain, or during windy days...

Beautiful red sunsets on those smoggy days, though. Reminds me of L.A.

[Harmonica]

Chaing Mai may be a bit smoggy and the air quality IN TOWN may not be the healthiest un the world, you been to Bangkok???

I have just moved to CM from there and I can tell you its 10 times cleaner here than there.

Point is what you gonna do about it,? nothing is perfect anywhere.!!

Today crossing the Ping River I saw labourers placing new pots of flowers all over the bridge. They look great. Now there pots can easily be removed by anyone devious enough to do so. But they stay put. You tell me in what other country this would happen? I come from Oxford, England and even that Charming University City has to NAIL everything down.

Take the good with the bad- Chaing Mai is PARADISE - one day our Glorious Leader will resolve the problem

Wasn't there some (can't remember which) CM English language paper just recently state that CM had surpassed BKK in the "harmful air" dept.? Correct me if I read that wrong .... 10-micron dust @ 131 or some such specifics ..

Numbers and data notwithstanding, it is dowright noticeable and takes no genius on "environmental watch" to recognize that Paradise, as you call it, has quite likely had its heyday and is hurtling rapidly downhill now. I've just arrived from clean-air zones and the qual. change, my friend, is NOT subtle!

Take away this neagative and yes, I wouldn't disagree. But this is not some little itty-bitty neg. that one can dismiss nonchalantly -- like the little things that so many seem to complain about regarding LOS etc. -- these little things are minute in comparison to the positives. But breathing is something that is done 24/7 -- hardly a leeetle thing!

OK then, as always, one has a choice -- leave or ride the crest with the rest of you and perish in the inevitable aftermath.

I've given my word via rental contract -- one year -- will re-evaluate then. One thing is for sure, IMHO -- better to have lived here than not, even if it turns out to be for just one year - for it surely is one beautiful place!

[Harmonica]

View from doi suthep in hot season.

Thanks for that, Darknight -- had you not mentioned the name, I would've assumed it was the view from somewhere near the Observatory in Griffith Park, Los Feliz, in LA, California.

[Darknight]

View from doi suthep in hot season.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for that, Darknight -- had you not mentioned the name, I would've assumed it was the view from somewhere near the Observatory in Griffith Park, Los Feliz, in LA, California.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well i think it's simply due to everyone burning litlle fires with leaves and plastic bags on each doorstep every morning . Because there's litlle or no wind the smog just hangs in the valley. this is not fog , (it was 35 degrees then) if you looked up it was clear skies going up. With a visibility of only a km or so it's very poor. i've never seen it in belgium like that , not even in brussels a city of 1.2 million people with a lot of commuters everyday.

[chuchok]

Well ,I've seen it before in clean green New Zealand. Christchurch is in the South Island. I can't remember the exact population, but I think it's around 340,000 mark.

The problem stems from having dry cool winters with no wind.The pollution is not so much from motor vehicles,but from fires used to heat homes(Most still use coal). They have introduced regulations where by it is now illegal to have any new house with open fires...even in the house.So the good old fire place is being phazed out.There also many other regulations that I can not remember.

As Dark says, if you took away those little fires then the problem could be more than halved overnight.

It all stems from education. The wife used to burn rubbish once a week until I told here what it was doing to the air.

How many Thai people (Esp. women) are there that are very concious of health issues and what is good for them..be it eating the right food, taking vitamins or using the most up to date natural skin cream etc. If you appeal to their vanity, would this start a change?

[cdnvic]

Thing to keep in mind is that Bangkok is built on a swamp by the sea and the humidity is always high. Much of the haze you see is mist, and it gets the seabreezes which cleans the air somewhat. Chaing Mai is dry, little wind, and what you see in the air is all crud.

Still love the place though.

cv

[ovenman]

There is NO beating about the bush and justifying -- CM is one helluva dirty city, air qualitywise!!     

Hate to say that we told you so but... didn't we tell you so?

[chuchok]

There is NO beating about the bush and justifying -- CM is one helluva dirty city, air qualitywise!!     

Hate to say that we told you so but... didn't we tell you so?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

still the best place in Thailand....according to me!

I can put up with the smog for 4-5 months a year.

[Harmonica]

There is NO beating about the bush and justifying -- CM is one helluva dirty city, air qualitywise!!     

Hate to say that we told you so but... didn't we tell you so?

Amen! You certainly did tell me so! ... and thanks for the early warning.

But, as it should be, I just had to find out for myself -- nothing like a quick, decisive resolution!!!

[ProThaiExpat]

Some posts hit on parts of the problem. I will start with the topography.

The Los Angeles reference is spot on. Chiang Mai is located in a valley surrounded by mountains, just like Los Angeles. When the temprature conditions get right, usually in hotter weather, an inversion layer is created above the valley and contained by the surrounding hills. This inversion layer causes a "lid" on the atmosphere above the city so that pollutants are kept from moving away by winds and other weather patterns.

Those who love old Hollywood movies will know that the movie industry moved to Los Angeles in the twenties because of the sunny and clear weather. Old movies look so much clearer in their outside shots taken in L.A., not so in current movies, those few shot in L.A. today.

Thus CM had clear weather years ago, before pollution emmission increased due to population density. There has alwasy been an inversion layer over LA and there will always be an inversion layer over CM.

California passed extremely severe vehicle emission control regulations that require emmisssion control on every vehicle and annual inspections upon re-registration and tough enforcement. LA was designated a smog danger zone with warnings going out to retrict activity at certain times, school outside athletics curtailed and the like.

Factories and even hamburger stands are subject to criminal fines and penalties if a hamburger grill emits so much smoke. No burning of trash is allowed in LA county at any time. They have been at it for forty years and they now have better air there most of the time than most major ciities.

CM needs an Air Quality Control Board with teeth, strong emmision control laws and rigid enforcement. Since it is largely a expense item for business, a business oriented government gets nowhere in trying to estabish what is necessary to clean up the air and big business is so against it, they fight tooth and tong to prevent vehicle emmision contol laws. Its all about how much money business must pay to modify their emmissions and consumers that end up paying for the smog control devices on their cars.

If one of our tuktuks was driving down a street in LA, I would be confident the dirver would be arrested immediately and his tuktuk impounded until it was brought up to standard. Possible in CM in the forseeable future, no, in my view.

Fortunately, the bad time is restricted to February until the rains come. I woke up this morning with a headache and chest congestion, my annual warning sign to turn on the aircon, clean my filters and keep the doors and windows closed until the rains come.

I moved to CM three years ago from Bangkok to escape their pollution and the chronic cough I had there. As my plane was landing in CM in March of that year, I can remember asking my Thai friend where all the smog came from. I was advised that it comes from Thai farmers burning their rice stalks. I now live next to a farm and would include in that diagnosis, any trash that burns to avoid rubbish collection fees. My driveway and entrance is covered, as I write this, with black soot. "Mai Pen Rai in Chiang Mai". Now that I think of it, a great screen name and avatar.

[chuchok]

I don't know how true this is, but I always believed that over 50% of the problem was due to open fires. Christ, the people living close to me will use any excuse to light a fire.

The answer must be in education?

[meadish_sweetball]

I don't know how true this is, but I always believed that over 50% of the problem was due to open fires. Christ, the people living close to me will use any excuse to light a fire.

The answer must be in education?

Education helps to a certain extent, but the problem with an age hierarchical social system, who is going to go tell Lung Somsak he cannot burn his rubbish anymore like he has always done. The neighbourhood farang?

There is a rubbish collection problem in CM though, and as long as burning your trash is a better solution than waiting for a truck that never appears, burning it will be. According to my friends the actual penalties for burning are severe, but as with many, many other laws and penalities in T-land, they are not very heavily enforced, if at all...

As for the forest fires, I suppose as long as people make a decent income from burning down jungle and reaping the benefits of quick growth of certain plants, animals forced out of their hiding and burrows to be killed and sold as jungle curry or your noodle soup, they will continue as well. The actual impact to the environment from the rapid development in T-land, China, India etc. is yet to be fully grasped. But my guts tell me it ain't too good.

3 billion people from agriculture to industrial society... Everybody wants a car or at least a motorcycle, a fridge, TV, computer and... Well.

You do the math, I'll go and crack open another beer.

[Erwin1011]

With a visibility of only a km or so it's very poor. i've never seen it in belgium like that , not even in brussels a city of 1.2 million people with a lot of commuters everyday.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But then it rains quite a lot in Belgium. Clears the particles in the sky.

[trigger]

please go easy with me as I am a forum virgin and a techno-peasant.

How far out of town do you need to go to get away from the worst of the pollution?

I'm thinking of the Hangdong direction.

[Ajarn]

I was at immigration (airport) today and I couldn't even make out the outline of Doi Suthep...

You simply can't escape it this time of year anywhere. Field burning has been in full swing for awhile, and the smoke will continue to Songkran and the first rains shortly after, as is tradition now...

Anyway, still lots of beautiful things around to look at closer up.

[Harmonica]

please go easy with me as I am a forum virgin and a techno-peasant.

How far out of town do you need to go to get away from the worst of the pollution?

I'm thinking of the Hangdong direction.

Hang Dong, no -- that won't cut it! You'd have to get over the mountains to escape it -- even places like San Kampaeng, though 18Km from the city, are only marginally better.

[Harmonica]

Coming over the Ping River bridge at 5 p.m. almost every day, I usually get a direct shot of Doi Suthep.  Today, it was shrouded in smoke and dust.  I got almost to Rim Kahm before I could make out the summit, and still couldn't see the wat.  Getting worse and worse.

I stopped wearing my red jacket on the 70 kilometers of daily commuting.  The jacket's dirty within ten days.  If I don't wear a jacket in the hot season, the dress shirt is soiled when I get to work.

Thanks PB -- thanks for the straight talk.

[penzman]

Yep, you can blame it on the open fires. I've been doing some painting on flat surfaces lately and I constantly have to wipe off particles of black soot falling from the sky. I live on the outskirts on Chonburi and there's plenty of field burning around and open fires in a nearby dump.

I guess there'll be more burning soon as our village and the neighbouring village are now stopping trucks picking up recycling from entering the villages apparently due to thefts going on lately.

Let the trucks in, fire the security guards! &lt;deleted&gt;...

[Harmonica]

There is NO beating about the bush and justifying -- CM is one helluva dirty city, air qualitywise!!     

Hate to say that we told you so but... didn't we tell you so?

still the best place in Thailand....according to me!

I can put up with the smog for 4-5 months a year.

4-5 months per year = 42% ..... if we were talking investments, you're beating the pros handsomely and I'm sure they'd all cuddle you lovingly to coax you to divulge your techniques -- but that large a period (%wise) spent in "effluvium" -- AND, promoting it as "still the best place in Thailand" -- you'd get the top slot at Lalaland in a hearbeat; no application necessary.

Regards

[Harmonica]

CM mail is the Eng. lang paper I mentioned in the origination -- some excerpts --

According to research done in BKK and foreign countries, if the 10-Micron dust level increases, the number of patients with respiratory diseases or Coronary Artery Disease will also increase -- in Feb. 2004, the rate of garbage burning & forest fires was high, coinciding with an increase in the # of aged people receiving treatment at hospitals.

On Jan 10, the air pollution meter @ CMCH recorded 131.3 mcg/cm of 10-Micron dust -- the max. acceptable level is 120.

Their conclusion -- "this figure indicates that the air quality of CM is deteriorating."

--------

[Harmonica]

Some posts hit on parts of the problem.  I will start with the topography.

The Los Angeles reference is spot on.  Chiang Mai is located in a valley surrounded by mountains, just like Los Angeles.  When the temprature conditions get right, usually in hotter weather, an inversion layer is created above the valley and contained by the surrounding hills.  This inversion layer causes a "lid" on the atmosphere above the city so that pollutants are kept from moving away by winds and other weather patterns.

Those who love old Hollywood movies will know that the movie industry moved to Los Angeles in the twenties because of the sunny and clear weather.  Old movies look so much clearer in their outside shots taken in L.A., not so in current movies, those few shot in L.A. today.

Thus CM had clear weather years ago, before pollution emmission increased due to population density.  There has alwasy been an inversion layer over LA and there will always be an inversion layer over CM.

California passed extremely severe vehicle emission control regulations that require emmisssion control on every vehicle and annual inspections upon re-registration and tough enforcement. LA was designated a smog danger zone with warnings going out to retrict activity at certain times, school outside athletics curtailed and the like.

Factories and even hamburger stands are subject to criminal fines and penalties if a hamburger grill emits so much smoke.  No burning of trash is allowed in LA county at any time.  They have been at it for forty years and they now have better air there most of the time than most major ciities.

CM needs an Air Quality Control Board with teeth, strong emmision control laws and rigid enforcement.  Since it is largely a expense item for business, a business oriented government gets nowhere in trying to estabish what is necessary to clean up the air and big business is so against it, they fight tooth and tong to prevent vehicle emmision contol laws.  Its all about how much money business must pay to modify their emmissions and consumers that end up paying for the smog control devices on their cars. 

If one of our tuktuks was driving down a street in LA, I would be confident the dirver would be arrested immediately and his tuktuk impounded until it was brought up to standard.  Possible in CM in the forseeable future, no, in my view.

Fortunately, the bad time is restricted to February until the rains come.  I woke up this morning with a headache and chest congestion, my annual warning sign to turn on the aircon, clean my filters and keep the doors and windows closed until the rains come.

I moved to CM three years ago from Bangkok to escape their pollution and the chronic cough I had there.  As my plane was landing in CM in March of that year, I can remember asking my Thai friend where all the smog came from.  I was advised that it comes from Thai farmers burning their rice stalks.  I now live next to a  farm and would include in that diagnosis, any trash that burns to avoid rubbish collection fees.  My driveway and entrance is covered, as I write this, with black soot.  "Mai Pen Rai in Chiang Mai".  Now that I think of it, a great screen name and avatar.

Right on the money PTE, much obliged.

>>>>> Fortunately, the bad time is restricted to February until the rains come. I woke up this morning with a headache and chest congestion, my annual warning sign to turn on the aircon, clean my filters and keep the doors and windows closed until the rains come. <<<<<<

keep the doors and windows closed ... for a few months? The chronic cough -- still have it? My impression from reading your posts etc. is that you have the wherewithal to relocate anywhere in LOS --- ??

Much obliged for your straight talk. Thank you.

[chuchok]

There is NO beating about the bush and justifying -- CM is one helluva dirty city, air qualitywise!!     

Hate to say that we told you so but... didn't we tell you so?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

still the best place in Thailand....according to me!

I can put up with the smog for 4-5 months a year.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

4-5 months per year = 42% ..... if we were talking investments, you're beating the pros handsomely and I'm sure they'd all cuddle you lovingly to coax you to divulge your techniques -- but that large a period (%wise) spent in "effluvium" -- AND, promoting it as "still the best place in Thailand" -- you'd get the top slot at Lalaland in a hearbeat; no application necessary.

Regards

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While the polution is not great, I'd still rather live here than anywhere else. The people here are better IMHO, and to me that counts a &lt;deleted&gt; load more than dust in the air.

I'll stick to my lalaland thanks...if you don't like it.....

[ProThaiExpat]

Right on the money PTE, much obliged.

>>>>> Fortunately, the bad time is restricted to February until the rains come. I woke up this morning with a headache and chest congestion, my annual warning sign to turn on the aircon, clean my filters and keep the doors and windows closed until the rains come. <<<<<<

keep the doors and windows closed ... for a few months? The chronic cough -- still have it? My impression from reading your posts etc. is that you have the wherewithal to relocate anywhere in LOS --- ??

Much obliged for your straight talk. Thank you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have a "moisture activated sinus problem" and I didn't know it at the time, but one of the posts in this thread revealed it, that BKK has a lot more humidity than we have here, so when I moved here, I haven't had a problem since. No flu, colds or other sickness in three years. If you enjoy good health you are indeed blessed and so I am.

[lopburi3]

Fortunately, the bad time is restricted to February until the rains come. I woke up this morning with a headache and chest congestion, my annual warning sign to turn on the aircon, clean my filters and keep the doors and windows closed until the rains come.

I was there for two weeks in late March and could not even make out Doi Suthep from PSK hotel most days. Even a rain did not clear the air. Last couple of days there (early April) it did clear a bit due to high winds. Trying late April this year.

[Ricardo]

The tinge of brown in the distant halo says more than it should.

But it does make for some really nice sunsets / sunrises .. Wow