Chiang Mai Is Dead!

[Paagai]

Are you saying they're actually under-age? Or just that there's a big gap in age? If the former then that's more than merely a reason to not like those bars so much, that would make it very urgent and important to report this to police, or your local friendly tourist police volunteer if that's easier.

I suspect it is the big age gap, Winnie. That somehow offends the hypocrites of the world. Although I don't frequent gay bars, it certainly is in your face in Jomptien area where I have a time share. As much as I keep hearing about the paedophilia in Thailand from other places in the world, it certainly hasn't been my observation. I would be hard pressed to find it anywhere in the open, and would have to do some serious searching in the sleezy corners of Thailand. Other places in the world are just big hypocrites and try to act like they are somehow better without truly understanding the culture in Asia. There is just as much nasty stuff of all types: drugs, theft, child prostitution, etc, going on in other places in the world but the hypocrites try to say it's not happening. The Thais seem much more open about their sexuality and there isn't the same stigma about gays or transvestites.

Well PB has explained it much more forthrightly than I would have dared It's not the age gap, I along with most other Farang living here would certainly be hypocritical if I had a problem with that.

What goes on is more open, though maybe not as obvious as Ian thinks. Most people who didn't know wouldn't give the group of hill tribe teenagers who hang around the motorbikes and food stalls behind the D2 a second thought.......... And Winnie you can be certain the BIB knows what goes on but TIT. Just like they know what goes on at Kad Suan Kaew too

Ian raises an interesting point; actually I don't think most Thais are really bothered by the situation, if some hustler is younger than he should be so what. "live and let live" as Catmac said, afterall he's just making a living to support his family. The problem actually comes from the moral objecters from western culture bringing and trying to impose their values on Thailand. If it wasn't for various foreign NGOs pressurising the BIB nothing would be done at all. The motives of these NGO's are often very questionable, but that is exactly why Gay people should stop giving them sticks to beat us with. I could go on but.........

[Paagai]

Paagai is no saint, but he vocally criticizes the pedophiles.

Lound crashing sound as halo smashes on floor In a former life I must have been a Catholic Priest

One of our posters labeled those places as 'junior high' four years ago.

Things are getting worse, current nickname is "the kindergarten"

[cmjantje]

Paagai is no saint, but he vocally criticizes the pedophiles.

Lound crashing sound as halo smashes on floor In a former life I must have been a Catholic Priest

One of our posters labeled those places as 'junior high' four years ago.

Things are getting worse, current nickname is "the kindergarten"

Kindergarten is a German word so it should be, as far as I know and You Germans please correct me: Der Kindergarten

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Ian raises an interesting point; actually I don't think most Thais are really bothered by the situation, if some hustler is younger than he should be so what. "live and let live" as Catmac said, afterall he's just making a living to support his family. The problem actually comes from the moral objecters from western culture bringing and trying to impose their values on Thailand. If it wasn't for various foreign NGOs pressurising the BIB nothing would be done at all. The motives of these NGO's are often very questionable, but that is exactly why Gay people should stop giving them sticks to beat us with. I could go on but.........

Kad Suan Kaew.. who knew!

I'm not sure I completely follow the line of thought here though.. When NGOs want to take action against children (ok teenagers I presume) being sexually abused then that is the problem, and not the abuse itself? That Thais don't give a *(&@# about hilltribe kids being abused would b e just fine, if only for those pesky NGOs with their Western morals deciding it's a problem?

[PeaceBlondie]

Now that we have identified that Thailand has underage male prostitutes (and gay men brought it up in order to stop the abuse) - will the straights who are not kiddy fiddlers please start a thread to protect young girls?

[cmdream]

Now that we have identified that Thailand has underage male prostitutes (and gay men brought it up in order to stop the abuse) - will the straights who are not kiddy fiddlers please start a thread to protect young girls?

The truth is that 9 of 10 arrests made for pedo offense has been gay men prying on young boys. This thread is going to hel_l fast, time for mods to do their job.

[IanForbes]

Now that we have identified that Thailand has underage male prostitutes (and gay men brought it up in order to stop the abuse) - will the straights who are not kiddy fiddlers please start a thread to protect young girls?

Protection of children, both male and female, can only happen when an economy is raised enough so the children's parents have enough money to live on. Paedophilia is going to happen everywhere, whether people are rich or poor. There has always been vile, nasy people and there always will be. But, at least by raising the economy levels there will be less poor and more children will have a better opportunity in the future. There are despicable mafia run brothels in all parts of Asia, but they are kept out of sight from the average tourist. I'm quite certain that the local police are well aware of them, but they are probably getting a kick back to keep their mouthes shut. The mafia get their young girls and boys from the poor peasants in exchange for money. When the peasants finally have enough money to live a decent life then there will be less children for sale. Thailand has a far better economy than most of its surrounding countries, but it still has a long way to go.

[Mapguy]

Thank you, Ian, for raising the level of the discussion.

[cmdream]

Now that we have identified that Thailand has underage male prostitutes (and gay men brought it up in order to stop the abuse) - will the straights who are not kiddy fiddlers please start a thread to protect young girls?

Protection of children, both male and female, can only happen when an economy is raised enough so the children's parents have enough money to live on. Paedophilia is going to happen everywhere, whether people are rich or poor. There has always been vile, nasy people and there always will be. But, at least by raising the economy levels there will be less poor and more children will have a better opportunity in the future. There are despicable mafia run brothels in all parts of Asia, but they are kept out of sight from the average tourist. I'm quite certain that the local police are well aware of them, but they are probably getting a kick back to keep their mouthes shut. The mafia get their young girls and boys from the poor peasants in exchange for money. When the peasants finally have enough money to live a decent life then there will be less children for sale. Thailand has a far better economy than most of its surrounding countries, but it still has a long way to go.

I agree with most of what you put forth, are you speaking from experience or speculation ?

[Mapguy]

This thread has become rather disgusting. And I am not a missionary.

[orang37]

This thread has become rather disgusting. And I am not a missionary.

Sawasdee Khrup Khun Mapguy,

My farang thinks the present participles in this thread have morphed into a gerund best limned as "horripilating," which I think is close enough by a factor of several parsecs to what you mean to mention.

regards, ~o:37;

p.s. for those of you who think/believe/feel that "Chiang Mai is dead" : excuse us while we necrophiliacs continue to find it beautiful, challenging, and deeply meaningful, and find our years here a "gift."

Edited May 14, 2009 by orang37

[rott]

[

Unfortunately for me, chiangmaioldhand has banned all riff raff from his café and tennis club, so that's the end of my social life in Chiang Mai. Can't even bring the kids along, he hates them as well. Was going to send the wife but she has some awful habits, picks her nose at the table and scratches her ass with the salad fork.

At first I thought ole cmoh was really mean, but now I realise he's a scouser I think I understand. Last time I visited his tennis club, was singing songs like; I'm enery the eighth I am & my old man's a dustman E wears a dustman's at.

I should have been singing, Ferry cross the Mersey & Oh Liverpool Lou, Lovely Liverpool Lou, Why don't you behave just like other girls do. And why the hel_l did I mention that I cant stand Cilla Black, should have kept my bladdy mouth shut.

Actually, I'm very fond of kids - I'm 'Papa' to all the night bazaar ragamuffins. Sreaming, uncontrollable kids I take exception to. Who doesn't?

As regards to Ferry Cross The Mersey - it really annoys me. It's a Ferry he's on. He took a 15 minute boat ride to Birkenhead and now he's singing about going back to 'this land I've always loved'!!!

I'm not so keen on 'Our Cilla' either. But then who is?

Oop, late for tennis, must dash.

Plleased to see "Ferry Cross the Mersey" get a mention, it gives me a chance to say that I was an extra in the opening scene at The Cavern. We were paid £1 a day for the 2 days it took to shoot, initially they wanted us to do it for free but Denny Flynn (sort of main man around Matthew St. at the time) intervened and negotiated the payment.

Technical point, I think in the film it was the Seacombe ferry.

[IanForbes]

I agree with most of what you put forth, are you speaking from experience or speculation ?

A bit of both. I look after a Thai family in Kanchanaburi and helped them start a small business selling water, ice and cold drinks. I send just enough money to keep the mother at home looking after her 3 children and I maintain just enough contact to see that it gets carried out. I like the children and they like me. I'm the only one who can show them a good time and take them places they wouldn't otherwise have an opportunity to visit.

Having knocked about most of Thailand and parts of south east Asia for the past 13 years I've run into all sorts of characters. Some haven't been too nice. I've heard all the horror stories and seen just enough to believe that many of the stories are probably true. I try to remove myself from most of that now and that is why I choose to spend most of my time in Chiang Mai where there seems to be enough of everything to keep me happy, but it's not so big as to overwhelm the senses. I have a time share for a week in Jomptien and go there once a year to visit my friends who like to play golf. It makes a nice change of pace from the more laid back Chiang Mai. I usually spend a week or so in the Krabi area as well to enjoy the ocean pleasures of snorkling and swimming.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Now that we have identified that Thailand has underage male prostitutes (and gay men brought it up in order to stop the abuse) - will the straights who are not kiddy fiddlers please start a thread to protect young girls?

I will if you don't close it?

I've seen people trying to address and discuss more serious (VERY serious) topics about social issues in this forum before, and they're always closed. So that leaves restaurant topics I guess.

But seriously, I would love to have a mature discussion on all aspects yes. So far I found just what I read here astonishing, frankly and I appreciate all contributions even those I do not understand and/or strongly disagree with.

Your post also seems to imply that this is picking unfairly on the gay scene. It's still a bit lame to seemingly shrug off completely outrageous behavior by pointing at other wrongs, as if that would make the behaviour at hand more acceptable. But perhaps it just came out that way, and objectively you are right that social wrongs need to be addressed everywhere, not just the Falang gay scene. I'm just not sure this is the place to have any kind of free and open discussion on topics that are more difficult than where to find the best burger.

Edited May 16, 2009 by sabaijai
comment on moderation deleted by another chiangmai mod

[Ulysses G.]

Underage girls have never been more than a very tiny minority of the straight, farang sex scene here - and usually girls who could easily pass for 18 years of age.

20 years ago, the Thai brothels had a number of girls in their late teens that were paying off their parents debts, but almost no foreigners frequented these places and that was stopped long ago.

It is wrong to allow underage girls to work in such places and it is wrong to buy their services; they are just too young to realize what they are getting themselves into, however it is also wrong for dishonest NGOs to pretend that this problem is anything other than almost non-existent. They use the specter of young victims to raise money and as a weapon against adult night life, while being fully aware that they are blowing it up way out of proportional reality.

There are real pedophiles out there that target very young children, but you almost never hear of them being arrested. Why aren't these religious NGOs using their resources to stop these creeps, instead of spending most of their time covertly trying to stop adults from having sex with other willing adults?

You would think that saving children would be a much higher priority than bothering people who are old enough to make up their own minds.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I completely agree Ulysses. Still, especially because it's so rare, I think we all have to do our part and be vigilant.

I also wonder however if it's 'almost non existent', if some fairly mainstream gay nightlife venues are apparenlty nick-named 'the kindergarten', as per a previous post. And (not just to please Peaceblondie), also in the 'straight' side of things I have to wonder about the very young hill tribe flower sellers who are out alone at night, all night. It would not surprise me one bit if there's equally creepy guys buying and abusing those.

[Rasseru]

Underage girls have never been more than a very tiny minority of the straight, farang sex scene here - and usually girls who could easily pass for 18 years of age.

How on earth do you know that? If someone asked me, I wouldn't have a clue. Mind you, that is true of many things - other than restaurants, of course! - so perhaps my lack of knowledge should not be taken as a sign that there is anything odd about your having such broad (as it were) knowledge in this case.

Seriously, though, how do you know that?

[Ulysses G.]

That is easy. Unlike you, I am single and have enjoyed the nightlife in Thailand for many years and have been all over the country. All you have to do is keep your eyes open and pay attention to what is going on around you.

[Rasseru]

What percentage of the places where underage girls could possibly be 'available' have you been to? A substantial majority? If not, how is it that you can speak of anything other than the places you have been? And how can you know whether they are representative of what goes on in the country or region as a whole?

[Ulysses G.]

Not only have I been to lots of Go-Go bars and such over many years, but I have also talked to lots of other men who have been to lots of other places. It is a common topic of conversation, as most men do not want to take any chance on going to jail, by being tricked into taking an underage partner.

I also read all I can about the nightlife scene in Thailand - non-fiction.

If you think that there are "secret" places for farangs seeking young girls, how would they get customers if no one knows about them? Also, if you read the threads on Thai Visa about this issue, you will see that most men who frequent these places agree that most of the girls are at least 18. I would say that most girls are over 24.

There are a few younger girls with fake ID's, but they are probably more like 17 and a tiny minority.

Edited May 15, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[Rasseru]

. . . If you think that there are "secret" places for farangs seeking young girls, how would they get customers if no one knows about them?

. . .

Thanks for your whole reply, Ulysses G. In answer to your question above from it, I don't think that there are secret places of that kind, because I don't know one way or the other. But while I understand better now your basis for thinking you have enough information to make an informed judgment that underaged girls are only a very tiny minority of the prostitutes who associate with farang here, I think that there is still the possibility that much could be going on that you are not aware of. I think probably the only practical way to find out if there is such a scene is to seek it out as someone who wants to participate in it. That is obviously something you do not want to do and have not done, but precisely for that reason, I think, you cannot be so sure about whether and to what extent the scene exists.

[IanForbes]

Underage girls have never been more than a very tiny minority of the straight, farang sex scene here - and usually girls who could easily pass for 18 years of age.

How on earth do you know that? If someone asked me, I wouldn't have a clue. Mind you, that is true of many things - other than restaurants, of course! - so perhaps my lack of knowledge should not be taken as a sign that there is anything odd about your having such broad (as it were) knowledge in this case.

Seriously, though, how do you know that?

The real vile creeps that prey on young girls have a network of information from other creeps and certain taxi drivers. I once met one of these creepy guys down in Pattaya about 13 years ago. He was with a small group of us single guys who were in Thailand for the first time. None of us knew at the time that this guy liked his girls on the tender side of 13 or 14 years of age. But, he was knowledgeable of the bar scene in Pattaya so we listened to him. He suggested a place where the girls were much prettier than the used up ladies we saw in the many open bars of Pattaya. So, the three of us went along with him to what turned out to be a small brothel area in a more remote Thai part of town. The three of us "newbies" just sat and had a beer in one of these homes while the creepy guy picked out some young gal who looked to be in her mid teens. None of the girls or young women spoke English and they didn't appeal to me or my friends, so we eventually left. That was one of my experiences with the more seedy parts of Thailand and I never wanted to repeat it. I heard later that the law was after this guy for soliciting young girls.

I have met lovely women all over Thailand. Some have worked in bars and others in banks, cafes and jobs elsewhere. If you take the time to be nice to people and not get too pushy at the start it is amazing what might happen. I now have a group of lovely gals who visit me on a regular basis and there is no need to search for more.

[Thakkar]

. . . If you think that there are "secret" places for farangs seeking young girls, how would they get customers if no one knows about them?

. . .

Thanks for your whole reply, Ulysses G. In answer to your question above from it, I don't think that there are secret places of that kind, because I don't know one way or the other. But while I understand better now your basis for thinking you have enough information to make an informed judgment that underaged girls are only a very tiny minority of the prostitutes who associate with farang here, I think that there is still the possibility that much could be going on that you are not aware of. I think probably the only practical way to find out if there is such a scene is to seek it out as someone who wants to participate in it. That is obviously something you do not want to do and have not done, but precisely for that reason, I think, you cannot be so sure about whether and to what extent the scene exists.

Slam dunk, Raseru. By definition, this underground world cannot be known to most of us. All I think I know is that it exists. How extensive it is, is something that neither you, I nor the worldly UG can know. UG however, does have a point though he seems to have fumbled the delivery. The practice is now underground, while twenty years ago it wasn't. While that's no consolation to those who suffer it's indignities, it is surely an improvement.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I think that there is still the possibility that much could be going on that you are not aware of. I think probably the only practical way to find out if there is such a scene is to seek it out as someone who wants to participate in it. That is obviously something you do not want to do and have not done, but precisely for that reason, I think, you cannot be so sure about whether and to what extent the scene exists.

Well.. to be honest my main worry doing that would be that it may turn out that it's actually not all that hard.

And that would just be asking some of the hilltribe aunties and tuk tuk driver very much in the tourist/expat areas.

[Rasseru]

Well.. to be honest my main worry doing that would be that it may turn out that it's actually not all that hard.

Believe me, the very last thing in the world I was trying to do was encourage you or anyone else to try, and I share your concern about what you might find out if you did.

[tijnebijn]

This is already far over to be any near of being on topic .

I don't know but you guys are creeping me out .

[Ulysses G.]

. . . If you think that there are "secret" places for farangs seeking young girls, how would they get customers if no one knows about them?

. . .

Thanks for your whole reply, Ulysses G. In answer to your question above from it, I don't think that there are secret places of that kind, because I don't know one way or the other. But while I understand better now your basis for thinking you have enough information to make an informed judgment that underaged girls are only a very tiny minority of the prostitutes who associate with farang here, I think that there is still the possibility that much could be going on that you are not aware of. I think probably the only practical way to find out if there is such a scene is to seek it out as someone who wants to participate in it. That is obviously something you do not want to do and have not done, but precisely for that reason, I think, you cannot be so sure about whether and to what extent the scene exists.

What you say is possible, but it would still be mostly a Thai phenomenon like the ones related by IanForbes.

The Thai Police always know what farangs who live here are up to and they would never be allowed to operate anything like this. That does not mean that no farangs could find their way to such places run by Thais, but they would be small in number.

One thing that is very sad is that usually only farangs are targeted for taking advantage of underage girls. When Thai men and Asian men do it, it is considered "normal" by most Thais and the NGOs could care less unless there is a white face. It is reputed to go on in the Asian oriented sex trade - which is GIGANTIC compared to the Western oriented one - but is almost totally ignored

Edited May 15, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[IanForbes]

This is already far over to be any near of being on topic .

I don't know but you guys are creeping me out .

Why would you be creeped out by a reasonable discussion on what goes on in the world? Are we to be so sterilized that we need to be blind? I haven't read any reply to this topic that wasn't reasonable. Everyone has stayed within the guidelines and not named anyone, or named any place that illegal activity has taken place. People should not be walking around with blinders on, nor should they not listen to a sensible discussion on actual facts about what goes on in the world. It is easy to be disgusted with people who prey on children, but it's just as easy to get disgusted about murder, religion, theft, and various political positions. And, in the case of this forum, even what place is good to eat and better than some other hangout.

The original topic was VERY ambiguous. The various posters are just having their say. All threads take twists and turns and go off topic. It is the same with personal conversations. Nothing is more boring than listening to just ONE person talk without anyone else having a say.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

People should not be walking around with blinders on, nor should they not listen to a sensible discussion on actual facts about what goes on in the world.

Yes. In fact, I'd say this topic is long over due. Discussions shouldn't just be about the fun and happy stuff, or where you can buy a lawn mower or a pizza.

To be honest, we DO talk about some of the bad stuff.. Pollution, crime.. There are many social problems that maybe aren't 'nice' to discuss, but important nonetheless.

Edited May 15, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[PeaceBlondie]

From forum rules as recently revised:

8) Not to discuss the specifics of prostitution.

Thailand has a visible sex industry, and acknowledgment of that fact is not forbidden. However ThaiVisa is not the place to seek or give information on this topic, regardless of your sexual habits, preferences or orientation.