Thai Wife Wants To Keep Uk Born Daughter In Thailand

[muaylaosfalang]

Hello

The first post i make is a most sad and distressing one for me,I live in the uk with my thai wife and our 19 month old uk born daughter had a holiday in Thailand arrived 1/4/09 we submitted another settlement visa on 3/4/09 did the online application and submitted all the docs 3/4/09 tracking system states sent to uk embassy now i'm back in england wife and baby in isaan.Wife lands a bombshell and says she no longer wants to return to the uk to live with me and intends to keep our baby girl in Thailand the baby is british passport holder no dual nationality on a tourist visa valid 21/6/09.I still hope i can talk my wife round to return to uk with our baby once visa is issued but she is also talking of obtaining a thai passport also for our baby to counter any border runs and tighten her grip of custody of our baby.I realize there probably is no thai lawyers on here but i'm desperate for any help or advice.I've checked the net and seems embassy help is little to non and looks like dealing with Thai lawyers wise in family law is the other option.Though i hope i can sort our marriage out by talking with my wife i need advice.Help anyone please.

[samran]

get a good lawyer, that is for sure.

one thing going in your favour is that while your daughter is automatically a Thai citizen at birth, processing the paperwork can only be done through the Thai embassy in London, given she was born in the UK.

Your wife will not be able to get her 'into the system' inThailand.

[Jungian]

It seems to me she is a UK citizen and you should have no problems getting her back.

I have always been cautious of the dual citizen/passport thing. Although my daughter was born in Thailand I never got a Thai passport and I do not intend to. I am happy to pay the very little money it costs to keep her in Thailand and take her to immigration with me every 90 days, although I have no worries about my wife leaving me or anything like that, this way I know if anything happens to me my daughter receives full benefits from the American Government (SSI) no questions asked because she can prove she is living in Thailand as an American. When she turns 18 she can get a Thai passport if she wants one.

[samran]

It seems to me she is a UK citizen and you should have no problems getting her back.

I have always been cautious of the dual citizen/passport thing. Although my daughter was born in Thailand I never got a Thai passport and I do not intend to. I am happy to pay the very little money it costs to keep her in Thailand and take her to immigration with me every 90 days, although I have no worries about my wife leaving me or anything like that, this way I know if anything happens to me my daughter receives full benefits from the American Government (SSI) no questions asked because she can prove she is living in Thailand as an American. When she turns 18 she can get a Thai passport if she wants one.

If she was born in Thailand, I think your logic may trip you up. If born to a Thai parent, your childs Thai birth certificate will state she is Thai. Whether she has a passport or not is not of consequence.

As another thread has recently shown here, by international convention, where there is a problem with someone considered a dual national, the other government (in your daughters case, the US) will not interfere when that person is living in the other country of their citizenship.

In my original response to the the OP, his child while technically a Thai citizen, does not yet have any documentary proof of his childs Thai nationality. In the case of a Thai child born outside of Thailand, the birth certificate can only be issued by the Thai embassy in country which they were born.

In your case (just like my children BTW), they are Thai by law, with the proof documented on their birth certificate.

Edited May 25, 2009 by samran

[Mario2008]

The child is Thai by being born from a mother having Thai nationality. As Samran pointed out, the problem will be to proof Thai nationality with a Thai BC, as the embassy in London has to provide that one. But there might be ways around that one. DNA evidence for instance.

OP currently has custody together with the wife over the child. It is unlikely he will be able to get the child from the mother, unless he can proof the mother is unfit to take care of the child. Without that proof a Thai court will not give the father sole custody.

However, currently the child doesn't have proof of Thai nationality. That might be reason for a Thai court to respect decisions made in a british court.

It seems OP is on the right track by going to try to talk to the mother. In all aspects it would be best to try and save the marriage. If it doesn't work out, I would take action fast so not to lose the benefit of the child currently not having proof of Thai nationality. If the Thai court decide the child has Thai nationality they will not let it return to the UK.

A good lawyer in family matters is our forum sponsor: isaan lawyers. But you might need a lawyer in the UK also, to start procedings there. I think your best bet is with the British courts.

[scorecard]

The child is Thai by being born from a mother having Thai nationality. As Samran pointed out, the problem will be to proof Thai nationality with a Thai BC, as the embassy in London has to provide that one. But there might be ways around that one. DNA evidence for instance.

OP currently has custody together with the wife over the child. It is unlikely he will be able to get the child from the mother, unless he can proof the mother is unfit to take care of the child. Without that proof a Thai court will not give the father sole custody.

However, currently the child doesn't have proof of Thai nationality. That might be reason for a Thai court to respect decisions made in a british court.

It seems OP is on the right track by going to try to talk to the mother. In all aspects it would be best to try and save the marriage. If it doesn't work out, I would take action fast so not to lose the benefit of the child currently not having proof of Thai nationality. If the Thai court decide the child has Thai nationality they will not let it return to the UK.

A good lawyer in family matters is our forum sponsor: isaan lawyers. But you might need a lawyer in the UK also, to start procedings there. I think your best bet is with the British courts.

Suggest you make contact with lawyer who is expert in Thai family law as soon as possible to get straight forward and correct advice. But don't hesitate to get second opinion or change lawyers if you have any doubts that the lawyer is giving you correct advice and any doubts that the lawyer is listening to any responding to your specific questions.

Why? In my experience too many lawyers focus on the 'process' and are not listening to their client, and not addressing the specific questions, which probably attaches to emotional concerns of their client.

I had this experience with a lawyer in Pattaya in regard to transfer of property from company name to my adult son's name. Lawyer was not listening to anything I or my son said, totally and only focused on the land title documents and strong push to get to the LTO tomorrow.

I changed lawyers quickly.

[muaylaosfalang]

Today i speak to my wife for 45mins she is still open to talk although she still is not happy with the situation,I have emailed isaan lawyers and got a swift reply telling me to sort out the marriage without legal action is the best course other than that the other option is a more than likely long expensive custody battle me in uk having to go to Thailand to appear as is posted above we have joint care over the baby but she has possion of our baby she's in Thailand im in England to confirm again our baby was born in England looks like a Thai birth certificate and Thai Passport can be obtained by the mother this wont strenghten her almost secure grip i dont think?But problems may arise possibly if she waits past the tourist visa expiry date on my uk passport of my daughter to do this?.Some posters above think the Thai BC can only be obtained via the embassy where my baby was born London uk but i think that is where Dual Nationality can be obtained.I think my fight lays in convincing my wife that all her worrys about her life in uk ie my attidude can and will be changed by me.Thankyou for the replys here and i will keep updated on this and also when the wives settlement visa is ready submitted 3/4/09 i have posted this in a thread in that section.

[Merangue]

Good luck mate. i hope you and your family can resolve any differences and have a happy life together. It is far better than having to go the custody battle route

[beano2274]

Try to avoid the court action, I had the same problem, although not in Thailand, but my kids hated me for not trying to save my marriage, you might encounter such a problem.

[samran]

Some posters above think the Thai BC can only be obtained via the embassy where my baby was born London uk but i think that is where Dual Nationality can be obtained.

You don't 'apply' for dual nationality. You either have it, or you don't.

In your childs case, she is automatically british by birth to a UK parent in the UK. She has the UK passport

She is technically already a Thai citizen already, due to being born to a Thai parent. HOWEVER, your daughter does not yet have any documentation to prove it. The only way (bar DNA) to start the ball rolling in this area is to have a Thai birth certificate issued by the Thai embassy in London, as she was born in the UK.

No district office in Thailand has juristiction is issuing a Thai birth certificate to someone born in the next district, let alone outside of the country. Only the Thai embassy in London can issue Thai birth certificates to people born in the UK. Indeed, the BC will be different in look and format to one issued inside of Thailand.

Without the BC, no Thai passport can be issued for the child to enter Thailand without limit on her stay.

Without the BC the child can't go on the house registration.

[lor]

Going back about 10 years. My wife told me on breakup of a relationship the husband can take the girls children and the wife keeps the boys. This sounds stupid to me but in her village in Caing Mai a relationship broke up in exactly the same circumstances as the OP's. The swiss husband turned up at the village with some police from Chaing Mai. He went to the wife's house and just took the daughter. The police made sure nobody stopped him. Being the father and the fact she had a Swiss passport meant he could go straight to the airport and take her home.

If you really want your daughter back the best thing is to convince your wife to return to the UK. If you cannot then, in my opinion, I would not trust the Thai legal system. Get a duplicate passport for your daughter, lie, say you lost the old one. Go straight to Thailand, pay the local police what it takes for their support, get your daughter and come straight back. Make sure you take with you pictures of your daughter and you, birth certifaicate, medical books and possibly a female to help you look after the daughter, maybe your sister or mother.

I may get flamed for this advice but that's the way things work here in Thailand!

Chris

Edited May 28, 2009 by lor

[Mario2008]

OP has been given the advise to try to save his marriage. I think that is the most sensible advise so far and should be tried first before any other action is taken.

[lor]

OP has been given the advise to try to save his marriage. I think that is the most sensible advise so far and should be tried first before any other action is taken.

and that is the first thig I said:

"If you really want your daughter back the best thing is to convince your wife to return to the UK"

I wish you luck in saving your marriage. It would be the best thing to happen for all concerned.

Chris

[SNGLIFE]

Interesting dilemma.

Aside from just natural curiosity as to WHY the wife does not want to go back to the UK (seems like she had a bad enough experience and not enough love or reason to want to return), I have a few questions for the Board:

1. Since the British child is in Thailand on a tourist visa and cannot get a Thai birth certificate, what happens when the child overstays?

2. Will immigration start racking up the fines?

3. Who will be responsible for paying them - the wife?

4. What happens if she can't/doesn't?

5. Will the child have to be deported back to UK?

Very interesting dilemma...

[Mario2008]

Interesting dilemma.

Aside from just natural curiosity as to WHY the wife does not want to go back to the UK (seems like she had a bad enough experience and not enough love or reason to want to return), I have a few questions for the Board:

1. Since the British child is in Thailand on a tourist visa and cannot get a Thai birth certificate, what happens when the child overstays?

2. Will immigration start racking up the fines?

3. Who will be responsible for paying them - the wife?

4. What happens if she can't/doesn't?

5. Will the child have to be deported back to UK?

Very interesting dilemma...

There is no overstay fine for children. In fact, many immigration officers advise to just let children stay on overstay and not worry about getting extensions for them. Children are also not subject to deportation for this.

Therefor the overstay has no consequences.

[Acutus]

Your wife can easily register your baby as a newly born, with the right amount of money to flow in the right direction, it's done before a baby can blink.

Just hope that she or her relatives don't know the right people and how to do it. Good luck.

[lor]

That's correct. One of the children in my wife's village has two ages. His real age and the official age which is 2 years younger! That's because the Thai father never bothered to register the birth till the child was two.

Chris

[aussiebebe]

Good luck to the OP in resolving this issue; hopefully a suitable arrangement can be reached which doesn't involve the courts or police - and one which addresses the issues of all parties concerned.

I'm interested in this thread as I've a wife and young son and I've often wondered about various senarios that might arise.

I've little to no understanding of Thai law, but if it helps, I think that in Thailand, if a legally registered married couple break up then the courts can and will decided upon custody depending upon the financial arrangements ie. who pays the bills. Several of my Thai friends have told me that this is how the courts work in their country.

Also I disagree with other posters about the ease with which a baby can be registered; the OPs daughter doesn't have a Thai Birth Certificate and these need the name, address and signature of a notifying person and registrar; I would be highly surprised if an official would risk their career for a measly bribe. In the case of the kid with two ages, the father did actually register the birth, albeit late. The OP never signed the Thai registration document - no offical would certify it.

[SNGLIFE]

Interesting dilemma.

Aside from just natural curiosity as to WHY the wife does not want to go back to the UK (seems like she had a bad enough experience and not enough love or reason to want to return), I have a few questions for the Board:

1. Since the British child is in Thailand on a tourist visa and cannot get a Thai birth certificate, what happens when the child overstays?

2. Will immigration start racking up the fines?

3. Who will be responsible for paying them - the wife?

4. What happens if she can't/doesn't?

5. Will the child have to be deported back to UK?

Very interesting dilemma...

There is no overstay fine for children. In fact, many immigration officers advise to just let children stay on overstay and not worry about getting extensions for them. Children are also not subject to deportation for this.

Therefor the overstay has no consequences.

Fair enough, BUT....what happens when the child is no longer a child...? He/She will grow up eventually...

[marsteele]

Hello

The first post i make is a most sad and distressing one for me,I live in the uk with my thai wife and our 19 month old uk born daughter had a holiday in Thailand arrived 1/4/09 we submitted another settlement visa on 3/4/09 did the online application and submitted all the docs 3/4/09 tracking system states sent to uk embassy now i'm back in england wife and baby in isaan.Wife lands a bombshell and says she no longer wants to return to the uk to live with me and intends to keep our baby girl in Thailand the baby is british passport holder no dual nationality on a tourist visa valid 21/6/09.I still hope i can talk my wife round to return to uk with our baby once visa is issued but she is also talking of obtaining a thai passport also for our baby to counter any border runs and tighten her grip of custody of our baby.I realize there probably is no thai lawyers on here but i'm desperate for any help or advice.I've checked the net and seems embassy help is little to non and looks like dealing with Thai lawyers wise in family law is the other option.Though i hope i can sort our marriage out by talking with my wife i need advice.Help anyone please.

Well when her tourist visa expires she has to leave the country. From what you say she is farang if she doesn't leave she will be deported. speak to your embassy.

[Mario2008]

Fair enough, BUT....what happens when the child is no longer a child...? He/She will grow up eventually...

I'm not sure at what age it would become a problem, at 15 or 18. In both cases the costudy issue will in all likely hood already be settled. No judge will return the child to the father after having spend that much time only with the mother, as the father will be a stranger to the child. Judges will act in the interest of the child.

Regarding the immigraiton rules, the child will simply need to get a non-O visa as a child of a Thai national and can get yearly extensions. That route is now open already. The British BC shows who the mother is: a Thai national and that should be enough to get a visa and extensions.

[LolaSamui]

I am amazed that nobody on this forum has pointed out how damaging it will be for the child to be taken away from her mother!!!

If you can't persuade your wife to come back to the UK why don't you demonstrate your commitment to your marriage and your family by going to be in Thailand with them both? Save your marriage and then you can think about returning to the UK as a family later.

When your daughter grows up she will not thank you for separating her from her mother.

Good luck - I hope it works out.

[lioness]

I am amazed that nobody on this forum has pointed out how damaging it will be for the child to be taken away from her mother!!!

If you can't persuade your wife to come back to the UK why don't you demonstrate your commitment to your marriage and your family by going to be in Thailand with them both? Save your marriage and then you can think about returning to the UK as a family later.

When your daughter grows up she will not thank you for separating her from her mother.

Good luck - I hope it works out.

Why would it be any more damaging for the child to be taken from the mother rather than the father, you are looking at this from a Western View Point I think.

As one poster stated, in Thailand it is often the norm for the girls to go to their fathers and the boys with the mohers.

The reason for this is to protect the girl child from sexual advances by any future boyfriends the mother may have. The boys go with the mother for other reasons I won't go into here as it's not applicable.

To the OP, I wish you the best of luck, I think you are going to need it.

[bangon04]

Why would it be any more damaging for the child to be taken from the mother rather than the father, you are looking at this from a Western View Point I think.

As one poster stated, in Thailand it is often the norm for the girls to go to their fathers and the boys with the mohers.

The boys go with the mother for other reasons I won't go into here as it's not applicable.

So they never have to learn to take care of themselves? Wash their own clothes / cook their own food?

[Jimjim]

Well when her tourist visa expires she has to leave the country. From what you say she is farang if she doesn't leave she will be deported. speak to your embassy.

Not true. This doesn't apply for babies. I've always heard it starts to apply at age 13.

[LolaSamui]

I am amazed that nobody on this forum has pointed out how damaging it will be for the child to be taken away from her mother!!!

If you can't persuade your wife to come back to the UK why don't you demonstrate your commitment to your marriage and your family by going to be in Thailand with them both? Save your marriage and then you can think about returning to the UK as a family later.

When your daughter grows up she will not thank you for separating her from her mother.

Good luck - I hope it works out.

Why would it be any more damaging for the child to be taken from the mother rather than the father, you are looking at this from a Western View Point I think.

As one poster stated, in Thailand it is often the norm for the girls to go to their fathers and the boys with the mohers.

The reason for this is to protect the girl child from sexual advances by any future boyfriends the mother may have. The boys go with the mother for other reasons I won't go into here as it's not applicable.

To the OP, I wish you the best of luck, I think you are going to need it.

I did not say it would be more damaging for the child to be taken from the mother than from the father. I think it is extremely damaging for a child to be separated from either of its parents hence my suggestion that the OP go back to his family and try to work things out.

I knew my comments would provoke such a predictable response.

[macduff]

Do whatever it takes to get your wife and child back to UK soil. If it was me personally i would promise the earth. As a farther myself to a son around the same age i would go back over to Thailand spend a few weeks with them and get her confidence back to return with you. If that does'nt work, then bring the lawyers in,but only as a last resort. Good luck.

[philo]

I am amazed that nobody on this forum has pointed out how damaging it will be for the child to be taken away from her mother!!!

If you can't persuade your wife to come back to the UK why don't you demonstrate your commitment to your marriage and your family by going to be in Thailand with them both? Save your marriage and then you can think about returning to the UK as a family later.

When your daughter grows up she will not thank you for separating her from her mother.

Good luck - I hope it works out.

Why would it be any more damaging for the child to be taken from the mother rather than the father, you are looking at this from a Western View Point I think.

As one poster stated, in Thailand it is often the norm for the girls to go to their fathers and the boys with the mohers.

The reason for this is to protect the girl child from sexual advances by any future boyfriends the mother may have. The boys go with the mother for other reasons I won't go into here as it's not applicable.

To the OP, I wish you the best of luck, I think you are going to need it.

The reason why a boy is pampered here is that he will ordain as a monk for a few days/years. This is supposed to give GREAT MERIT to his mother. I feel sorry for the OP - I am in the same situation. let the OP read this:

http://travel.state.gov/family/abduction/c...ountry_528.html

EDIT: comment about moderation deleted - mario2008.

[muaylaosfalang]

After this last holiday im thousands of pounds in debt and cannot return to thailand,my wife now says she in korat at her sisters house i think she left her dads house in fear of any legal proceedings i may start.The british embassy offers no help and i dont think a custody battle via uk to thailand will be great.I keep promising the earth to persuade her to come back but she is still down and angry with me.I really think that this is a fight i cannot win even though her visa to return to uk is not ready when it is im not sure if it will make any difference to her.Her money i left her is now gone and im not prepared to pay for my baby to be kept away from me in Thailand she still has her gold so she says!Im at a total loss with all this im devastated!

[nigelandjan]

I am amazed that nobody on this forum has pointed out how damaging it will be for the child to be taken away from her mother!!!

If you can't persuade your wife to come back to the UK why don't you demonstrate your commitment to your marriage and your family by going to be in Thailand with them both? Save your marriage and then you can think about returning to the UK as a family later.

When your daughter grows up she will not thank you for separating her from her mother.

Good luck - I hope it works out.

What a daft suggestion to make ,,,,,,I am sure the UKBA would have something to say about that , fannying about in Thailand for who knows how long ?? after giving up his work and home in the Uk,, he would be lucky to get either of them back.

I think he has enuf probs without adding to them