An Encouraging Trend

[pedro01]

This is very dangerous territory for the law to delve into.

The age of consent in Thailand is 15, but in the US is it 18, I believe.

If the act took place in Thailand which age limit applies?

One country permits abortion another does not.  Can an expectant mother be

accused of murder back home, if she goes abroad for an abortion?

This is just another example of other nations trying to impose their standards

on countries overseas, without regard to the wishes  and laws of that country.

Imperialism used to be the expression for it!!

Until there is global agreement about these matters, then laws should be

restricted to the country where they are enacted.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't talk rubbish - we are talking about prosecuting kiddy fiddlers here.

And if that means people coming here & fiddling with 15, 16,17 year olds - I'm all for that too ! There's no need for it.

Football hooligans too... Why not ?

When these laws really start to apply to stuff like traffic violations - then's the time to protest. Not now based on what 'might' happen if this is taken to extremes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the problem with big bro' is that they want to nose more and more in their peoples affairs

it does not matter what the crime is, drugs, sex, terrorism its the innocent souls that suffer, we talk about a majority ogf 98% here

so you want to give up your freedom for that

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, as I'm not a terrorist, drug user or kiddy fiddler I'm not giving up any freedoms.

You mentioned drugs twice - is it safe to presume you are a user & are worried about getting busted for your Amsterdam trips ?

Travelling is becoming more inconvenient now due to the checks on terrorism and I suffer it gladly. If my life becomes a little less convenient whilst the world cracks down on people that like to rape children, then I will gladly pay that price.

For the innocent people in the UK that have not been allowed to travel because of bans intended to stop violent thugs travelling to spoil sports events - that's just 'collateral damage' once the violence uis eradicated, there won't be any need to stop anyone from travelling will there ?

The argument that these laws will be applied across the board to all laws just don't hold water - the manpower and costs involved would be phenominal.

[Boh Bpen Yang]

I think you will find that irrespective of the age of consent in your own country, most western countries are setting laws that make it an offence to have sex with a person under the age of 16yo while in another country. This doesnt change any local laws though....if the age of consent is 18yo in the country you are in, you are still bound by the local law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But not Vice Versa!!!

That chart of Age of Consent shows what a mockery this whole thing is.

An American tourist is limited to 18, but a US soldier can have sex at 16....

Local laws should apply!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I couldn't agree more. Although the case mentioned is illegal in all of the countries listed in the chart and it would be prosecutable by any countries standard. I just think it is a dangerous precedence to have the laws of whatever country you are in apply to actions taken in whichever country you have visited.

There are some weird laws out there. In Lebanon for example it is not illegal to have sex with a goat. But if you then kill and eat that goat it is punishable by death. Now that is a very extreme example, but, do you really want to be subject to rules and regulations that you may not even suspect as a crime. I mean...how do you know where a goat has been?

Edited to add links.

Strange Laws

Strange Sex Laws

Edited February 14, 2005 by Boh Bpen Yang

[toastwars]

It's also the case in Britain, but I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand it's good that sick people like this man (if found guilty) can be prosecuted back in their home countries when they might have escaped prosecution in the country where they commited these heinous acts, however, it sets a dangerous precedent that you can be tried back in your home country for things you have done outside it's borders. Where will it lead? Laws being enacted to prosecute dope smokers returning from Amsterdam? May sound far fetched, but it is one step closer now than it was a few years ago.

I'd feel much more comfortable if developed nations such as the US and Europe pressured the governments in countries where this is a problem to strengthen their child sex abuse laws and to prosecute foreign paedophiles on their own soil. If US authorities have evidence to prosecute this guy then it should be handed over to the relevant Thai authorities and he should be deported back to Thailand to await trial. A long stint in a Thai prison would also be a far worse punishment than a spell in a prison of their home countries.

Infact, if there was a major crackdown with highly publicised long sentances in Thai prisons being handed out to child sex tourists then I think this would go a long way to discouraging others to do the same.

So come ont Thaksin, you must be running out of wars by now, how about a war on paedophiles?

hmmm - we are talking about pedophiles here, which is a little different from people smoking dope in Amsterdam.

This a fairly typical 'lefty' view where setting precedents seems to be everything...

I beleive there's a place for precedents and a place for exceptions to them and in this case an exception for kiddy fiddlers is fine in my book.

I can't see anything wrong with this. Don't be so paranoid.

and we have never seen anyone bend laws to fit their own ends, the "lefties" you refer to are the oes who stand up for your rights everyday and try to stop thin ends of wedges taking hold in todays fervent neo imperialistic political climate. I suppose it is ok that people are being held without trial or evedence for years by "civilised governments". A case of I'm alright jack?, and as the saying goes "and then they came for me"

[AzzaTazza]

I say when it comes to protecting children from these sexual predators, all freedoms come a distant second....

these animals are absolutely sick, and unfortunately there is little hope of cure.. in my mind the .....

/edit generalisation

Edited February 15, 2005 by Darknight

[booma]

Just pointing out that it is not illegal to be stoned in the uk, it is illegal to drive etc under the influence. But if, say, your walking down the the street looking stoned you would, maybe, get searched and then if your very very unlucky, and in posession of a sizable lump, get arrested.

One of the only good things about the UK these days.

b

PS You'd get nicked, and rightly so, for smoking a spliff near a school, to tie it in a little with the general topic (ie protecting our youngsters)

Edited February 15, 2005 by booma

[pedro01]

It's also the case in Britain, but I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand it's good that sick people like this man (if found guilty) can be prosecuted back in their home countries when they might have escaped prosecution in the country where they commited these heinous acts, however, it sets a dangerous precedent that you can be tried back in your home country for things you have done outside it's borders. Where will it lead? Laws being enacted to prosecute dope smokers returning from Amsterdam? May sound far fetched, but it is one step closer now than it was a few years ago.

I'd feel much more comfortable if developed nations such as the US and Europe pressured the governments in countries where this is a problem to strengthen their child sex abuse laws and to prosecute foreign paedophiles on their own soil. If US authorities have evidence to prosecute this guy then it should be handed over to the relevant Thai authorities and he should be deported back to Thailand to await trial. A long stint in a Thai prison would also be a far worse punishment than a spell in a prison of their home countries.

Infact, if there was a major crackdown with highly publicised long sentances in Thai prisons being handed out to child sex tourists then I think this would go a long way to discouraging others to do the same.

So come ont Thaksin, you must be running out of wars by now, how about a war on paedophiles?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hmmm - we are talking about pedophiles here, which is a little different from people smoking dope in Amsterdam.

This a fairly typical 'lefty' view where setting precedents seems to be everything...

I beleive there's a place for precedents and a place for exceptions to them and in this case an exception for kiddy fiddlers is fine in my book.

I can't see anything wrong with this. Don't be so paranoid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and we have never seen anyone bend laws to fit their own ends, the "lefties" you refer to are the oes who stand up for your rights everyday and try to stop thin ends of wedges taking hold in todays fervent neo imperialistic political climate. I suppose it is ok that people are being held without trial or evedence for years by "civilised governments". A case of I'm alright jack?, and as the saying goes "and then they came for me"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh please - enough of this vegatarian bullsh*t.

OK - so in your book, they should not get tough on peadophiles ? That's what we are talking about.

Also - who are you to stand up for my rights ? How do you know what rights I want ?

I want the right to raise my children without having some kiddy fiddler poking about at them. That includes people travelling from UK to Thailand who may have a poke & then bugger off back home.

[DaiMai]

OK - so in your book, they should not get tough on peadophiles ? That's what we are talking about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your problem is that you have not defined what you mean by a paedophile!!!

By American standards it appears to be someone who has sex with a person under 18.

In the UK you can marry the girl at 16, does that make the man a paedophile?

Of course not.

Until there is univeral agreement about standards, then laws should be applied in

the country where they are enacted, and nowhere else.

I thought your kind of biggotted imperialism went out of fashion a long time ago.

[pedro01]

OK - so in your book, they should not get tough on peadophiles ? That's what we are talking about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your problem is that you have not defined what you mean by a paedophile!!!

By American standards it appears to be someone who has sex with a person under 18.

In the UK you can marry the girl at 16, does that make the man a paedophile?

Of course not.

Until there is univeral agreement about standards, then laws should be applied in

the country where they are enacted, and nowhere else.

I thought your kind of biggotted imperialism went out of fashion a long time ago.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Peadophile - someone that has sex with children.

This German guy was busted for being with a 13 year old boy - is that good enough for you?

As for 'imperialism' what on earth has that got to do with keeping dirty old foreign men away from my kids ?

I think there must be some kiddy fiddlers on this forum, the way they are defending this issue.

Next you'll be telling me that 13 year old boys are sexually mature.

My son is 3 years old BTW - if someone came from abroad & messed with him (not that I'd let it happen), then I am very glad that he could get busted for it back in his own country.

I have no idea why some people on this forum have a problem with that or think that it is in any way related to going to Amsterdam & smoking a joint.

Put it into perspecting, please. Keep perverts away from Children.

[astral]

America is starting to do this more and hopefully other countries will follow suit:

No bond for man accused of sex with minor in Thailand

KNOXVILLE, Tenn., USA.

A federal judge in Knoxville has denied bond for a private school teacher accused of traveling to Thailand to have sex with a child.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry! Where did the German get into this arguement?

It started off discussing with an American.........................

If the allegations were true, then it is matter for the Thai courts.

The American police can contribute, if they have "evidence" to offer.

I cannot see how a foreign court can possible hear unbiased evidence in such a

case. Foreign police have no power to investigate in another country,

that is a matter for the local authorities.

Any witness taken to another country to testify is automatically suspect.

What person would not tell a few lies to get a free trip overseas.

It is all very suspect from a legal point of view.

A parents we have a right and duty to protect our children, but that is not the

issue here.

[pedro01]

America is starting to do this more and hopefully other countries will follow suit:

No bond for man accused of sex with minor in Thailand

KNOXVILLE, Tenn., USA.

A federal judge in Knoxville has denied bond for a private school teacher accused of traveling to Thailand to have sex with a child.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry! Where did the German get into this arguement?

It started off dealing with an American.........................

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

oops

Verzeihung!

[pedro01]

A parents we have a right and duty to protect our children, but that is not the

issue here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes - that is the issue here. That was the point of the original post.

The issue is not that this will set a precedent and that suddenly that your own country will be spying on you when you travel - waiting for you to drive to fast, or smoke a joint.

The only precedent this sets is that the international community is getting together to clamp down on peadophile sex tourists. That's it - nothing else.

Those of you that are turning this into a bigger 'conspiracy' need to change cigarettes.

Children are getting hurt, the international community are trying to do something about it but a few tree-huggers on this board seem to think that it's 'big brother out to get us, man'.

It's not a conspiracy, it's not a precedent, it's common sense for the good of the worlds children - OUR future !! Protect their rights, not the peadophiles.

And if you are worried that this'll effect your ability to nail 16 year old girls - GOOD!

[sriracha john]

America is starting to do this more and hopefully other countries will follow suit:

No bond for man accused of sex with minor in Thailand

KNOXVILLE, Tenn., USA.

A federal judge in Knoxville has denied bond for a private school teacher accused of traveling to Thailand to have sex with a child.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry! Where did the German get into this arguement?

It started off discussing with an American.........................

If the allegations were true, then it is matter for the Thai courts.

The American police can contribute, if they have "evidence" to offer.

I cannot see how a foreign court can possible hear unbiased evidence in such a

case. Foreign police have no power to investigate in another country,

that is a matter for the local authorities.

Any witness taken to another country to testify is automatically suspect.

What person would not tell a few lies to get a free trip overseas.

It is all very suspect from a legal point of view.

A parents we have a right and duty to protect our children, but that is not the

issue here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this practice evolved from foreign governments not having any confidence in the Thai judicial system, which one can't really blame them for that, eg. a double murderer out on bail in Kanchanaburi... Duangchalerm getting away with murdering a policeman, etc. etc.

I no doubt think the practice would stop if some semblance of a truly just justice system was in place in Thailand.

[Boh Bpen Yang]

I think there must be some kiddy fiddlers on this forum, the way they are defending this issue.

I am not in any way defending kiddy fiddling. I think as you do, that it is terrible and should be prosecuted.

The law is a very fragile instrument. I am only suggesting that cross border application could be very bad. Not in this case, but in others. If it becomes common, you could possibly be prosecuted in some countries for actions in Thailand that are very commonly accepted and not illegal here. This applies in reverse as well. To stick with sex as a general topic... Sex "toys" are illegal here and the use of such "toys" is illegal as well. With this cross border precedent, someone you know could be prosecuted for using such toys while in their home country.

Going back to the original case. The individual charged would be prosecuted no matter where he was in the world. I just believe, for the sake of less obvious infractions, one should be prosecuted in the country where the crime was committed under the laws of that same country.

[pedro01]

I think there must be some kiddy fiddlers on this forum, the way they are defending this issue.

I am not in any way defending kiddy fiddling. I think as you do, that it is terrible and should be prosecuted.

The law is a very fragile instrument. I am only suggesting that cross border application could be very bad. Not in this case, but in others. If it becomes common, you could possibly be prosecuted in some countries for actions in Thailand that are very commonly accepted and not illegal here. This applies in reverse as well. To stick with sex as a general topic... Sex "toys" are illegal here and the use of such "toys" is illegal as well. With this cross border precedent, someone you know could be prosecuted for using such toys while in their home country.

Going back to the original case. The individual charged would be prosecuted no matter where he was in the world. I just believe, for the sake of less obvious infractions, one should be prosecuted in the country where the crime was committed under the laws of that same country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then we agree.

Cross-border application of Peadophile laws will help to stop people going to backwaters like Cambodia where they can plainly get away with this behaviour.

Gettin prosecuted in Cambodia can be resolved with $$$$, which is why this is necessary.

If there is another way to resolve this (faster than stamping out Cambodian corruption), then we should discuss that. If not, we should stick with this solution.

Cross-border application of all laws has not been mentioned except in this forum, and it really is just people taking the concept to extremes. If you can imagine the time and effort that would go into just stopping the Peadophiles, you'd realise that cross border application of all laws is simply unrealistic.

The manpower doesn't exist in most countries to enforce their own laws 100%. So even in my country - the UK, laws are applied selectively. For example, driving laws in the UK are applied selectively. You will more likely be convicted of speeding than any other driving offence because of the number of speed cameras. There are no cameras that will catch drink-drivers, so less are caught as it takes manpower to enforce this law.

[Polly]

I think there is also the deterrent that if you are prosecuted in your home country, it will be publicised to a certain extent and you will be judged by your community. People convicted in Thailand could quite easily keep it from their families and friends and go home at the end of their sentence with (in their minds) a clean slate.

[Ijustwannateach]

I would advise moderators to close this topic, as it is not something that can be discussed rationally considering the high feelings it raises. I'm not saying it shouldn't raise high feelings, but that most posters tend to say more extreme things than really make sense- and anyone who shows skepticism about the fanatics calling for "castration of pedophiles" is accused of "defending pedophilia." As a thread, it's most likely a lost cause.

I'm all for protecting the children. But I find that people who really get over-the-top angry at protecting the children from "moral" outrages like abortion or sexual abuse are not really terribly passionate about going out of their way to protect them from hunger, poverty, neglect, and other things that might ultimately be a similar or greater misfortune for the children. Convicting a pedophile is a way to "protect the poor children" without being inconveniently out of pocket in actually doing something for some of them. Similarly, it's an easy way for governments to appear to be "doing something" without causing the least bit of financial harm for the rich in the favor of the poor. I say "feed the children" a little more first, and when we've taken care of that move on to other things. There's a U.N. Charter on the Rights of Children (don't know where it is, probably can google to find it) which I thought was a wonderful ideal.

Astral is right to raise the question of different ages of consent. Because this is such an emotional issue, it's hard for those in countries where the laws place the legal age at 18 to believe that, in countries like Britain, Norway, and Thailand, 16 and 17 year olds *really are* legal. The feelings are so high that people mistake the legal regulation traditionally adopted in their country for the psychological one. Incidentally, the psychological definition of pedophilia (as found in the DSMs) defines it medically as a condition involving consistent attraction to persons who are *under* 15 years of age. Pedro, if you're gunning after people who have consensual sex with 17 year olds, you're simply prejudiced, sorry. And no, I'm not one of them [current boyfriend: 23 years old]. Thai law and British law and Norwegian law all say 17 year olds can make up their minds about sex, and I'm inclined to agree, remembering my own late teenage years.

I'm strongly against this new habit of countries exporting their laws. Contrary to Pedro's careless attitude towards it, the U.S. already attempts to control things that should be far outside its jurisdiction with its own laws, and there is a slippery slope. Catch pedophiles? Sure, no problem. But just recently, the U.S. actually passed a law (reported on here) banning ALL U.S. citizens from consuming Cuban products, no matter where they were in the world!!! It only takes a few steps down the road before the potential abuses become apparent. The goal is admirable, but the mechanism is atrocious. Currently the fiction is that anything involving "interstate commerce" from the states is under U.S. federal regulation, but they've stretched that into ridiculous proportions. I agree with the previous posters that greater enforcement of local laws (which would also convict most of the real offenders) and pressure to extradite are better legal solutions.

Aside from the previous caveats, I'm all for doing whatever's necessary, even erring on the conservative side, to keep the underaged away from perverts. However, could we also make sure they have enough to eat?

"Steven"

[gburns57au]

I think this practice evolved from foreign governments not having any confidence in the Thai judicial system, which one can't really blame them for that, eg. a double murderer out on bail in Kanchanaburi... Duangchalerm getting away with murdering a policeman, etc. etc.

I no doubt think the practice would stop if some semblance of a truly just justice system was in place in Thailand.

it has nothing to do with confidence in the Thai judicial system...

The laws pertaining to sex with underage persons while visiting overseas was to stop the hit and run types....they go to a country like Cambodia, indulge in sex with minors and get out before they are caught.

The first guy charged here would have got away with it had he not shown a workmate some photos....the workmate dobbed him in....They flew the 2 kids in to testify...since then quite a few guys have been charged and convicted based on reports from the overseas police. some others have been caught there and are now in jails there.

It doesnt matter where they catch or charge these guys...as long as they are caught somwhere.

I know that the UK, US and OZ have the laws in place with the age of 16yo being applied.....that means that you can have sex with a 16yo in other countries (as long as you dont break that countries laws) and stay within the law in your own country. A bit silly.....in the US you can be charged for it and then fly overseas and do it quite legally. In Oz (WA) the age of consent for sex is now 16yo....so it is the same where ever we go. Be warned tho that in Thailand it is illegal for a prostitute to be under 18yo and if you go with a prostitute under the age of 18yo....you will be breaking the law whether you knew her age or not. Which is strange as prostitution is illegal there....But it shows that the thai law does recognise the sex industry.

An anglophile is not someone who has sex with English people so why is a paedophile someone who has sex with kids ???? A paedophile is not always a child molester.....a child molester is not always a paedophile....before you jump up and down.....A paedophile may enjoy looking at pictures of clothed children and get a thrill out of it...he may never sexually touch a kid in his life or even want to.....A child molester maybe someone who through circumstances, commits a single act....but otherwise has no sexual attraction to children....

That is why at least here in Oz....paedophillia is never used in the wording of an offence....instead it is "indecent dealing" or "sexual Penetration" with a minor.

[astral]

Cross-border application of Peadophile laws will help to stop people going to backwaters like Cambodia where they can plainly get away with this behaviour.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where did you get that idea?

There have been several cases reported in the press over the last year!

[Darknight]

I would advise moderators to close this topic, as it is not something that can be discussed rationally

As the discussion is still rational and mostly civil we will allow it to continue for now.

i edited out some portions. Make your points in a constructive way !