What Is A Native English Speaker?

[garro]

For me the question of whether or not someone is a native speaker is an easy one; it is my mother tongue and any language that I pick up at a later date will not be my native language no matter how much effort I put in to it. The mother tongue was learnt without an internal vocabulary, but any new language depends on my current vocabulary. I think that in Thailand this distinction becomes blurred; for some people native English speaker means being white, for others it means having a certain accent, while for others it means being able to speak English well enough. This would all be irrelevant except for the fact that being seen as a native speaker can not only affect your ability to get a job, but also the pay and conditions once you are in the job.

Many foreign teachers believe that the term 'native speaker' is purely a race issue. They see the tern 'native speaker' as being code for white person. Some of the Filipino teachers point out that their country now has English as an official language so they should be classified as native speakers (perhaps Thailand should follow this example and rather than spend money on English teachers, just list it as an official language of Thailand). Race does cloud the issue in Thailand, but I feel there is more to it than just this. I don't agree that having a good understanding of English is the same as speaking/understanding it like a native.

There is also those who argue that having a certain accent is what being a native speaker is all about. The Irish and Scots lose out here as many believe these accents are too difficult; American English become the prestige native speaker accent with all others being seen as at most second best. My point here is not to get into the debate about which accent is better, but about the perceptions people have.

I always just considered myself a native English speaker without much thought as to what this actually means; I didn't need to think about it. Living and working in Thailand though has made me question lots of my assumptions. Does native speaker mean your mother tongue? Will my son who is being brought up with two languages while living in Thailand be considered a native English speaker?

What exactly is a native English speaker and should it matter?

[Scott]

Wow--now I have to think! A native speaker is someone whose was raised with it as their primary language. You can be bilingual--with one language being spoken primarily at home and the other one being spoken dominantly outside the home and in education. There are a lot of immigrant families in the US who speak their country of origin language at home, but the children go to school in English, watch TV in English and interact with others in English. They are most likely bilingual.

I had a good friend who I worked with (he was a translator/interpreter). He was ethnic Chinese from Vietnam and began learning English when he was 3 years old. As a child he resettled in the US. He was fluent in all three languages and, for example, couldn't answer the question as to what language he dreamt in.

At school, we generally use the nationality of the person as the indicator of whether they are a native speaker. If they aren't then they need to take a language proficiency test such as (TOIEC).

Unfortunately, in Thailand White skin=native English speaker.

[garro]

For me the question of whether or not someone is a native speaker is an easy one; it is my mother tongue and any language that I pick up at a later date will not be my native language no matter how much effort I put in to it. The mother tongue was learnt without an internal vocabulary, but any new language depends on my current vocabulary. I think that in Thailand this distinction becomes blurred; for some people native English speaker means being white, for others it means having a certain accent, while for others it means being able to speak English well enough. This would all be irrelevant except for the fact that being seen as a native speaker can not only affect your ability to get a job, but also the pay and conditions once you are in the job.

Many foreign teachers believe that the term 'native speaker' is purely a race issue. They see the tern 'native speaker' as being code for white person. Some of the Filipino teachers point out that their country now has English as an official language so they should be classified as native speakers (perhaps Thailand should follow this example and rather than spend money on English teachers, just list it as an official language of Thailand). Race does cloud the issue in Thailand, but I feel there is more to it than just this. I don't agree that having a good understanding of English is the same as speaking/understanding it like a native.

There are also those who argue that having a certain accent is what being a native speaker is all about. The Irish and Scots lose out here as many believe these accents are too difficult; American English become the prestige native speaker accent with all others being seen as at most second best. My point here is not to get into the debate about which accent is better, but about the perceptions people have.

I always just considered myself a native English speaker without much thought as to what this actually means; I didn't need to think about it. Living and working in Thailand though has made me question lots of my assumptions. Does native speaker mean your mother tongue? Will my son who is being brought up with two languages while living in Thailand be considered a native English speaker?

What exactly is a native English speaker and should it matter?

Just noticed a typo!

[fiddlehead]

At school, we generally use the nationality of the person as the indicator of whether they are a native speaker. If they aren't then they need to take a language proficiency test such as (TOIEC).

My son is 4.

He is half Thai, half American.

He can speak both languages equally well.

I would consider him a native English speaker.

I guess it could be debatable. Hearing him speak would most likely end the debate.

[garyh]

Native speaker is Aboriginal one who has a bone through his nose and wears a loin cloth and speaks English.

[Xangsamhua]

Alan Davies, the Welsh linguist has written quite a bit about this. From memory, he says that everyone has the same mother tongue; it's called Universal Grammar (UG - the hardwired capacity to learn to speak a language authentically in the first years of life). That language will be a variety/dialect/sociolect of a recognised language (e.g. the Glasgow dialect of English). The recognised language, of which the child is said to be a native speaker, even if he/she has had to acquire the standard form at school, is "a dialect with an army and navy" such as English.

So your Irish and Scots and Strines and others, if they have followed that sequence, can be said to be native speakers of English. However, there are many who have learnt as their first language in an English-dominant country a language other than English, e.g Spanish in the US, Welsh in Wales, Chinese in Australia. They are not technically native speakers but are effectively, operationally so, and may be as proficient in their second language (English) as their first. There are also native speakers who produce, unselfconsciously, perfectly adequate spoken English, but may have a poorer vocabulary and less rhetorical command of English than a well educated non-native speaker.

These differentiations are problematic, not only for Thai school administrators who are looking for ways to quickly identify who will be authentic models of English among their foreign staff, but for language planners anywhere, especially for those who are expected to direct funding appropriately for language teaching and learning support.

Perhaps another way of putting the question is to ask "Who is a native speaker of International English"? Forms of English pronunciation, vocabulary and so on that are quite acceptable in a global environment where many or most people speaking English will not be "native speakers" by birth extend beyond the bounds of acceptability in a regional or national English-speaking environment. Indian, Filipino and African forms of pronunciation, for example, once adjusted to (and, therefore no too deviant from familiar forms), are quite acceptable in international English interactions. We can also reflect on the fact that second language speakers, regardless of national origin, often appear to understand each other better than native speakers understand them. It's as if there is a paralinguistic domain in which L2 speakers are quite at home with each other, but L1 speakers are somewhat alien. This may be a purely personal observation, but is an observation nonetheless.

[Ijustwannateach]

Perhaps in some ways being a native speaker is like being able to pass the "Turing Test" for a computer- in other words, if a person cannot be distinguished from a native speaker by other native speakers, he is equivalent to a native speaker for that purpose.

However, things get cloudier when it comes to regional dialects, because I know that there are some dialects of British, Irish, and Scottish English that I find it hard/impossible to follow (and not because of word choice, but pronunciation).

What I think is desired in a functional sense is those who speak in a manner which is vanilla enough to be understood and accepted internationally, as Xs says above. Which, in its odd way, not only excludes many Filipinos and Indians, but also some Scots, Australians, and even U.S. Americans.

I don't think there's a simple answer, though, so good on Garro for asking a thought-provoking question.

[garro]

There have been some interesting points made here.

The idea that being a native speaker is connected to the ability to speak clearly has made me think. What does clearly mean? Is an RP accent actually clearer than say a Geordie accent? If people in the US mostly spoke with a Glaswegian accent would that be the the accent which was easiest to understand? Is it too simplistic to say that one accent is easier to understand than another one?

[Somtamnication]

Garro, in Thailand, a native English speaker is a white monkey. No need to buy Nivea Whitening lotion, or spf 500++ to look like Michael Jackson.

White skin, pure and simple.

And God, there are some awful ones out there who get by with the color of their skin.

[gk10002000]

Anybody that was schooled in English at school starting from 4 years old and whose parents spoke english predominantly at home around the clock. If they learn other languages or learn some language from their parents or grand parents is fine but irrelevant.

In the USA, they keep vetoing any US federal statute that attempts to make English the national language. Having traveled the world a bit, I do appreciate when countries have important documents or travel things translated into english, but I do not expect it. I actually do not like the amount of money the USA spends on other languages here in the USA. Just because hispanics are a large immigrant group, why should people's tax dollars go towards teaching them in public schools using spanish? Why not teach school in Korean, or chinese, or some other language? My grandparents came from Greece and nobody paid for their education using greek when they emigrated to the USA.

[PeaceBlondie]

In Oklahoma in the 1970's, ballots were available in over ten Amerindian tongues, but almost all voters could read English. Glaswegian didn't sound English at all. By the time most immigrants earn citizenship, they're fluent in the predominant local language. Thus, passports are usually good indicators of native-level fluency.

But there are many very fluent L2 speakers. My Thai neighbors here spoke Yunnan Chinese before going to school in Thailand. My Slovenian friend teaches English well.

[MJo]

Wot yu mean should it matter ?

IMO the whole native speaker thingy is bit out of hand here. It does not matter normally, maybe it is a benefit once you go high up in university level but for normal school kid no. The main thing is that the teacher is able to teach english no matter where he comes from or what language his mother spoke.

I have worked maybe too long with different nationalities in different parts of the world and noticed one thing. It is always the native speakers that have most difficulties to be understood. And definedly i do not want my kids to speak "native" and be understood only in some remote village in some remote island in the outskirts of europe.

[Lost in LOS]

Its obvious.......... a native English speaker is and American

JK

[garro]

Wot yu mean should it matter ?

IMO the whole native speaker thingy is bit out of hand here. It does not matter normally, maybe it is a benefit once you go high up in university level but for normal school kid no. The main thing is that the teacher is able to teach english no matter where he comes from or what language his mother spoke.

I have worked maybe too long with different nationalities in different parts of the world and noticed one thing. It is always the native speakers that have most difficulties to be understood. And definedly i do not want my kids to speak "native" and be understood only in some remote village in some remote island in the outskirts of europe.

I have had a different experience than you in this regard. I have worked with many non-native English speakers in the west and in the Middle-East in my other occupation as a nurse. On more than one occasion I have seen the wrong patient given the wrong treatment because of the non-native speaker's inability to distinguish between he and she. Regularly, important information is missing from reports due to limited English vocabulary of the person giving it. To say that it is always the native speaker who is the most difficult to understand has not been my experience at all. After a few weeks it is possible to adjust to any English speaker's accent; trust me I lived in Glasgow for a year. A non-native English speaker can be difficult to communicate with even after knowing them years.

[PeaceBlondie]

Thailand already has thousands of non-natives teaching English with terrible accents - Thais. They need teachers with native-level English. Passports from UK-Ireland-S Africa-Australia-NZ-USA-Canada fill the bill. ,

[loong]

In all honesty, it would probably be better if a totally new language was invented and adopted as THE international language. But that's beside the point.

I agree to some extent that people with English as a 2nd language are often easier to understand for another with ESL.

I've noticed it with Thai language as well. On quite a few occasions I've heard a farang trying to talk to a Thai, in Thai language and the Thai has just stood there looking bewildered, not understanding at all. Yet I've been able to understand what the farang is trying to say.

[doggie888888]

I guess if you dream and think in English, that makes you a native speaker of English. It says nothing abt proficiency in the language. As an example if you read and heard how some Englishmen in Pattaya write and speak...They are native English speakers, probably dream and think in English but they are not exactly proficient in their own language.

[meadish_sweetball]

I have a different angle on dreaming.

Given enough immersion into a language, it is inevitable that you will dream in it, but from my personal experience, the language actually used in these dreams does not necessarily reflect correct usage. Your brain will be quite content with twisting the language to a version you can comprehend, even inventing its own nonsense words in the language that sound correct.

I've had this happen with both English, Spanish, French and Thai. I am fluent and at near-native level in English, and fluent in Thai (but still far from native level). With French and Spanish I am neither, and if I had had audiovisual recordings of those dreams I have no doubt that they would appear bewildering to actual native speakers of French and Spanish.

As for who is suitable as a teacher, I don't think it is a simple matter of being a native speaker or not... Many skills combine to make a suitable teacher. Some of the people who taught me English and Thai in a school setting were not native speakers, but they were certainly very competent and suitable for the teaching role all the same.

[MJo]

In all honesty, it would probably be better if a totally new language was invented and adopted as THE international language. But that's beside the point.

I agree to some extent that people with English as a 2nd language are often easier to understand for another with ESL.

I've noticed it with Thai language as well. On quite a few occasions I've heard a farang trying to talk to a Thai, in Thai language and the Thai has just stood there looking bewildered, not understanding at all. Yet I've been able to understand what the farang is trying to say.

Agree, and in my opinion in some extent there already is international english which is not the native english spoken in UK, US or AUS etc.

As a reply to Garro, yes it goes both ways. Native speakers also have hard time to understand the non natives. I'm still constantly in situations here where native speakers are getting pissed and having really hard time to understand what the waitress etc is trying to ask them. However other non natives around him understand and often have to tell the native speaker in more familiar accent / language to him what they are saying.

Your correct that people adjust but the key is that the native speaker has to be the one adjusting to be able to communicate. And sometimes it's just not going to happen and even after years outside of their contry they have difficulties to communicate with non native speakers. Then again some will pick it up after 2 weeks.

It also applies to non natives, noticed myself that when going say Singapore after a good few months i do have to really listen to understand what the locals are saying but usually i get used to it in a week or so. Same goes with native speakers, especially UK accents and some aussies

Edit: what i meant to say in my first post that i see it more beneficial to lear "international" english if you mainly communicate with non natives as you do in many asian countries. Naturally if you spend time in UK, US or AUS then you benefit for the native teacher.

Edited June 15, 2009 by MJo

[CosmicSurfer]

In all honesty, it would probably be better if a totally new language was invented and adopted as THE international language. But that's beside the point.

I agree to some extent that people with English as a 2nd language are often easier to understand for another with ESL.

I've noticed it with Thai language as well. On quite a few occasions I've heard a farang trying to talk to a Thai, in Thai language and the Thai has just stood there looking bewildered, not understanding at all. Yet I've been able to understand what the farang is trying to say.

Another International Language was tried and failed... It was called "Esperanto".

As for Thai's not understanding Farangs speaking Thai, whereas a Farang could, this is simply because Thais are never taught... "What does it sound like...." (as in... "use your brain and figure it out.... think about it"!!) Remember Thais are never taught to think in school.

First, Thais when accosted by any Farang immediately assume that they can't speak Thai, or if attempted it would be incomprehensable.

Second, as Thais live in a closed off world, unto themselves, they don't have the experience of trying to understand many different accents and dialects except South Thailand and Laos. Whereas we, growing up with Rex Harrison and Audrey Hepburn in "My Fair Lady", are all to used to using our brains to comprehend and communicate and were regularly exposed to English as spoken by a Scott, Irish, Indian, or Cockney, etc... in our cultural expressions (movies, songs, Radio, plays, literature, etc.)

Third, it is far simpler to just ignore the Farang then make any attempt to communicate, which could only lead to further communications, and ultimate loss of face... Thereby leaving the average Thai only the ability to hide behind those tried and true expressions.... "No Have".... "Can not".... and of course.... "Mai Kow Jai !!!! (giggle, giggle!!!)"

Now.. about those native speakers with a Canadian Passport....

Would those include a French-Canadian from Chicoutimi or St.Louis-de-Ha-Ha .... Mon Dieu !!

EH ????

CS

Edited June 15, 2009 by CosmicSurfer

[garro]

HI mjo, I think that you miss my point. The non-native speakers of English that I am talking about are having more than accent-related difficulties with the language. These are people who have passed exams like the IELTS at a high level, but still have problems with basic English comprehension. My understanding of the cause of this is that in some countries English is being almost fully taught by non-native speakers (not people who speak English as a mother-tongue) and this has consequences. English vocabulary is spoken using L1 grammar and hilarity ensues.

I believe accent difficulties can be easily fixed, most people can adjust their language for different audiences and most native English speakers can easily pick up another accent. If the knowledge isn't there in the first place, though, there is a much bigger problem.

Edited June 15, 2009 by garro

[CosmicSurfer]

Last year I worked with a Thai/American teacher...

He ended up being fired. Besides being a lousy Teacher, he had a low level vocabulary and very difficult accent.

He moved to USA when he was around 13.

Plus it confused the Admin terribly that they hired a "Native-Speaker" but he did't need a Visa or Work Permit.

He was probably the best paid Thai teacher in Thailand, while it lasted. He also had huge cultural problems... Thai US cultures all mixed up....

His wife was from Taiwan... I told him that he was better off moving to Taiwan to teach...

Less problems for him there.

CS

Edited June 15, 2009 by CosmicSurfer

[bangkokrick]

Hi All,

I can't remember where I got this from but I always find it amusing. I suggest if you can read, speak and understand this you are a native English speaker. lol

I take it you already know

Of tough and bough and cough and dough?

Others may stumble but not you

On hiccough, thorough, slough and through.

Well done! And now you wish perhaps,

To learn of less familiar traps?

Beware of heard, a dreadful word

That looks like beard and sounds like bird.

And dead, it's said like bed, not bead-

for goodness' sake don't call it 'deed'!

Watch out for meat and great and threat

(they rhyme with suite and straight and debt).

A moth is not a moth in mother,

Nor both in bother, broth, or brother,

And here is not a match for there,

Nor dear and fear for bear and pear,

And then there's doze and rose and lose-

Just look them up- and goose and choose,

And cork and work and card and ward

And font and front and word and sword,

And do and go and thwart and cart-

Come, I've hardly made a start!

A dreadful language? Man alive!

I'd learned to speak it when I was five!

And yet to write it, the more I sigh,

I'll not learn how 'til the day I die.

Cheers, Rick

[loong]

I've never seen that rhyme before Bangkokrick. It really shows how ridiculous the language is. Easy for me, but I can see how difficult it must be to learn when not immersed in it as a child.

[CosmicSurfer]

F$&%#Xg Fantastic....

I have to try that rhyme on my wife!

Maybe not...

She'll lose all her confidence.

CS

[garro]

Hi All,

I can't remember where I got this from but I always find it amusing. I suggest if you can read, speak and understand this you are a native English speaker. lol

I take it you already know

Of tough and bough and cough and dough?

Others may stumble but not you

On hiccough, thorough, slough and through.

Well done! And now you wish perhaps,

To learn of less familiar traps?

Beware of heard, a dreadful word

That looks like beard and sounds like bird.

And dead, it's said like bed, not bead-

for goodness' sake don't call it 'deed'!

Watch out for meat and great and threat

(they rhyme with suite and straight and debt).

A moth is not a moth in mother,

Nor both in bother, broth, or brother,

And here is not a match for there,

Nor dear and fear for bear and pear,

And then there's doze and rose and lose-

Just look them up- and goose and choose,

And cork and work and card and ward

And font and front and word and sword,

And do and go and thwart and cart-

Come, I've hardly made a start!

A dreadful language? Man alive!

I'd learned to speak it when I was five!

And yet to write it, the more I sigh,

I'll not learn how 'til the day I die.

Cheers, Rick

Brilliant, I will show this to some of more able students.

[MJo]

HI mjo, I think that you miss my point. The non-native speakers of English that I am talking about are having more than accent-related difficulties with the language. These are people who have passed exams like the IELTS at a high level, but still have problems with basic English comprehension. My understanding of the cause of this is that in some countries English is being almost fully taught by non-native speakers (not people who speak English as a mother-tongue) and this has consequences. English vocabulary is spoken using L1 grammar and hilarity ensues.

I believe accent difficulties can be easily fixed, most people can adjust their language for different audiences and most native English speakers can easily pick up another accent. If the knowledge isn't there in the first place, though, there is a much bigger problem.

I hear you, there is lot of people that do not speak or understand english that well and yes most of them are non-native speakers

Any exam does not guarantee that you can speak or understand the language. For a proof i have myself who studied swedish in school for 11 years and passed test to qualify for all swedish language government jobs. However i never spoke or could understand a single word.

But you can not say that the reason is due non-native theacher, that is just silly. Sure the teacher must have good knowledge of the language and also have basic skills in teaching but it has nothing to do if he/she is native speaker or not. And i'm talking now to teach english as second language.

Accents should not be fixed, they should be acquired as needed once the basic language skills are there.

Naturally as native speaker and due to the fact that asia it is more important to be native speaker than to have proper qualifications for teaching you held native speakers in high regard. Go to any school in europe and you find out that majority of english teatchers are not natives, however they have high level university education with ofter more than 10 years studying leading to it + few years more study to qualify for teaching thus have much better understanding of the language etc than most teachers here in asia. Including native speakers.

[Firelily]

If you sent your child to an EP school, which teacher would you prefer:

1, a native speaker with a random bachelor's degree - say, in "communication technology", very little experience, maybe no TEFL training, OR

2, a non-native speaker who has a degree in teaching English as a second language, excellent but not perfect command of English, and ten years of experience?

I was scared shitless when I first had British and American kids in my class. I'm so grateful to my boss for believing in me from day 2 or so onwards, and to the children's families for giving me a chance and for accepting me.

[gerryBScot]

What a great thread and what a great poem Rick many thanks! I am a Glaswegian married to a filipina, both of us living and working as teachers in Thailand. My impression is that the filipinos are usually well qualified both in terms of first degree and professional teaching formation; most have a PGCE equivalent. However there is a huge disparity in terms of their spoken and written ability, from native speaker level to sub-good learner. Some of the filipinos must feel very resentful because they are undoubtedly better qualified, more experienced as well as being first class teachers, ( I am not saying this because my heavily pregnant wife has a gun to my head!) and earn significantly less than some of the thrill seeker native speaker types who are passing through. Maybe everyone who teaches should be required to provide some sort of IELTS rating. From what I understand this is what incoming teachers to the UK are required to do if they wish to use their qualifications to teach there. Hey just as well this is a written forum or nobody would understand my staccato machine gun rattle of a Glasgow accent.....as we say, you can take a man out of a tenement but you cannae tak the tenement oot ae a maun!

[Xangsamhua]

Hi All,

I can't remember where I got this from but I always find it amusing. I suggest if you can read, speak and understand this you are a native English speaker. lol

I take it you already know

Of tough and bough and cough and dough?

Others may stumble but not you

On hiccough, thorough, slough and through.

Well done! And now you wish perhaps,

To learn of less familiar traps?

Beware of heard, a dreadful word

That looks like beard and sounds like bird.

And dead, it's said like bed, not bead-

for goodness' sake don't call it 'deed'!

Watch out for meat and great and threat

(they rhyme with suite and straight and debt).

A moth is not a moth in mother,

Nor both in bother, broth, or brother,

And here is not a match for there,

Nor dear and fear for bear and pear,

And then there's doze and rose and lose-

Just look them up- and goose and choose,

And cork and work and card and ward

And font and front and word and sword,

And do and go and thwart and cart-

Come, I've hardly made a start!

A dreadful language? Man alive!

I'd learned to speak it when I was five!

And yet to write it, the more I sigh,

I'll not learn how 'til the day I die.

Cheers, Rick

And what does this say about Phonics programs based on assumed grapho-phonemic correspondence?