I Knew But I Didn't Say Anything.

[kimincm]

You chose the right way. Listen to your wife and keep a low profile yourself. oI would never listen to a stranger when it comes to business dealings especially Thai business dealings. It's up to the new comer t make his own decisions.

You're right, that's what TV's all about,not listening to peoples experiences,opinions and ideas,or did I miss something,again.Listen to your wife,listen to your wife,did you throw all decency and conscience out the window when you married.

[Petesear]

A couple of month ago we were invited by this neighbour for lunch. The reason was, we learned when we arrived, they had an other foreigner for lunch and they were trying to sell him (actually his Thai wife) a piece of land nearby. Nothing wrong with that so far. The only problem is the husband is also an architect / contractor but a very lousy one. We had some problem with them in the past, we eventually found a solution but we said "never again!".

When I told my wife we should warn the new comers, she said it was none of our business, and anyway it was only a land deal. Later we learned more was involved in the deal, including the design of the new house, and of course now they have argument, our neighbours saying the falang doesn't want to pay for their job, him saying they obviously overcharge him for a poor job. Based on our experience, we, actually I, my wife still doesn't want to be involved, think the new comer is right.

Should I have warned the new comer during our meeting ? Anyway, he was looking very self confident at the time and i don't think he would have listen to my advises. And we would have end up with trouble with everybody. As usual, my wife is probably right

Would you have liked to have been informed of this contractor's shoddy work before you had parted with any money?

Now you have your answer....

[EndofDays]

she is right.

You can tell there are a bunch of liberal-minded european farangs (and now the U.S. is becoming just like you, I'm afraid) living in Thailand...."Don't get involved", is pretty much the answer for any uncomfortable situation. You all complain about the apathy or fatalistic attitude that seems to paralyze Thailand but then you propagate it amongst yourselves? You see a farang or a girl getting beat up? Don't get involved. An accident in the streets? Don'g get involved. A total stranger who you know is about to get screwed in a financial deal? Don't get involved. Avoid confrontation, avoid uncomfortable situations. There isn't just black and white. Right and wrong is an outdated moralistic attitude.You're mentality is the reasons tyrants exist. You're the reason the status qou will also remain just that. Don't get involved. Ok, I am climbing down off my soap box.

Edited June 20, 2009 by EndofDays

[473geo]

understandably the natural reaction for a farang living in Thailand would be not to rock the boat and say nothing. Your so called friend and neighbour knew exactly that and unscrupulously invited you along to the sales pitch so as to give him silent endorsement and help clinch the deal. Unlike yourself, I won't allow myself to be used in that manner.

If what else you say about him is correct then your neighbour does not deseve your loyalty or respect.

The whole problem with the world today is that too many people sit with their finger up their <deleted> when they should have done or said something when they knew something wrong was going down.

Could have said something along the lines of...... Somchai will do exactly what you want, but you must be there to make sure your plans are followed and understood, fix any issues as they arise, as it is impossible to resolve them later........might have helped....at least both the builder and the builders would know where they stood.......you have hurt nobody.

[duceahearts]

You did business with this guy and had nothing but grief! Would you have not liked somebody else who also had the same grief to tell you and warn you against letting this guy do the work ? If the answer is you would not want to know then you are a strange man. I certainly would have told the guy to try to save him going through what you went through. To just let this man walk into a world of grief and possibly financial hardship is very shallow and like those on here saying " say nothing " pathetic yet all to typical of the attitude to each other here in Thailand.

And people slag of the Thais!!! I wonder how many Thais would sit back and say nothing if the situation was reversed ?

couldn't put it any better.

[IanForbes]

Nothing wrong with that so far. The only problem is the husband is also an architect / contractor but a very lousy one. We had some problem with them in the past, we eventually found a solution but we said "never again!".

This says it all. As a "few" others have said, I would have warned the stranger, but later and very discretely. I wouldn't want my wife to lose face in front of the group, even if it was a scheming, conniving group of crooks.

First of all, I wouldn't attend a supper with someone who I've had "problems" with in the past. They would no longer be MY friends. I would have let my wife attend if she was so inclined, but I wouldn't be there. Thais are different and seem to ignore this basic philosophy. They seem to ignore the fact that supposedly good friends have screwed them in the past. Thais do react differently to lack of consideration by others, and they DO gang up on farangs.

[CharlieB]

You yourself been on the receiving end of this guys shoddy workmanship and by going to dinner with him and his next victim, you gave him positive support in the eyes of the other couple. I would have either declined the invitation or had a quiet word with the bloke and warned him of the poor experience you've had from him.

I find it funny how everyone whinges in Thai-related forums about how farangs in Thailand ignore each other and never support each other against Thais and here we are with half a page of people happily advising someone to help a Thai to <deleted> over another farang. Yes, he may have seemd confident or cocky, but maybe that was just his way. Maybe if you'd actually talked to him and told him he'd have gratefully received your advice, but you didn't even give him the option.

[torrenova]

So someone you happen to still live near to, who tried to pull one over on you and presumably tried to rip you off or deliver shoddy work, is still your friend and you allow him to rip off someone else ? Grow a set and don't go falling over yourself to do things the (very wrong) "thai" way. You should have told the guy and refused to be drawn into the situation in the first place. Failing that, you should have made an excuse and left.

[JetsetBkk]

Do what you would do back home in the west.

[TheWalkingMan]

If a vendor had burned me with shoddy work and was attempting to get work from someone I met.... I would have spilled my guts. No question.

[baza]

A couple of month ago we were invited by this neighbour for lunch. The reason was, we learned when we arrived, they had an other foreigner for lunch and they were trying to sell him (actually his Thai wife) a piece of land nearby. Nothing wrong with that so far. The only problem is the husband is also an architect / contractor but a very lousy one. We had some problem with them in the past, we eventually found a solution but we said "never again!".

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You've already got involved and given an opinion. You were invited to dinner specifically to influence the other Farang. Even though you did not actually express an opinion the fact that the Thai contractor was your good friend and had done work for and you were there having dinner together implied he was a good guy.

I think you should have dropped a hint to the other Farang, whether he takes the hint or not is up to him but I think we "Old timers" have an obligation to help the new guys.

Quite right ,the builder sounds like a proffesional bodger,who must think bye now were are all fair game ?,just up your game, ,i would hate to see other people get turned over as i have been ,whether i liked them or not . most of us get hung out to dry over here,about time it stopped ,there are some good builders here but not to many

[baza]

A couple of month ago we were invited by this neighbour for lunch. The reason was, we learned when we arrived, they had an other foreigner for lunch and they were trying to sell him (actually his Thai wife) a piece of land nearby. Nothing wrong with that so far. The only problem is the husband is also an architect / contractor but a very lousy one. We had some problem with them in the past, we eventually found a solution but we said "never again!".

When I told my wife we should warn the new comers, she said it was none of our business, and anyway it was only a land deal. Later we learned more was involved in the deal, including the design of the new house, and of course now they have argument, our neighbours saying the falang doesn't want to pay for their job, him saying they obviously overcharge him for a poor job. Based on our experience, we, actually I, my wife still doesn't want to be involved, think the new comer is right.

Should I have warned the new comer during our meeting ? Anyway, he was looking very self confident at the time and i don't think he would have listen to my advises. And we would have end up with trouble with everybody. As usual, my wife is probably right

thats a big fat YES YES YES ,freinds like you who needs enemies,

[Orac]

If the OP was not asked for his advice or and did not endorse his neighbours work (not entirely clear from the OP since it must have come up in the conversation) then why should he get involved giving advice to what is a total stranger, bearing in mind that he has to live with his neighbour close by and I would assume classes him as some sort of friend as he was invited to a meal with him, albeit with a purpose in mind.

[cognos]

Why are you still friends with this Thai builder? You obviously still are, so no wonder you were confused..unless this farang was a total dk head..it would have been a good idea to tell him discretely later..because unless you are abnormal, you ALWAYS treat others the way YOU want to be treated..therefore you would SURELY want the farang to tell you if the roles were reversed...people (especially on Thai Visa..) will condemn others for mistakes but NEVER themselves..thats human nature..so don't condemn yourself..decide once and for all if you were right or wrong..if you feel you were right..MOVE ON..if you feel you were wrong..by all means forgive yourself..learn for the NEXT TIME..and MOVE ON.. it seems you know you should have told him... ..but forgive yourself (and do some good deeds for others..even strangers.. going forward..)

[Orac]

The story does not make a great deal of sense unless the OP did endorse his neighbour in some way. The OP suggests that he was there specifically to recommend his neighbour or provide some sort of reference however he is also implying that he didn't pass judgement one way or the other - even a refusal to give an endorsement should have been enough to deter anyone. Also, if the neighbour did a poor job previously, why on earth would he invite you to meet a potential new customer of his unless you had implied to him you were happy with his work.

[Longbow212]

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it.”

Albert Einstein

Its very easy to sit here and judge the whole situation from a few words on TV. In the situation you have to use your judgement. We dont know if you had the opportunity to tell him the score or how badly he has been ripped off etc.

Personally I would have tried to tell him without the neighbour knowing. If that opportunity did not arise perhaps a casual conversation leading to oh lets meet for a drink sometime give me your number..... then a phone call revealing the truth. Or just openly explain that you think this is far too much for the work he is asking for, if your neighbour doesnt like your opinion he should not of invited you round to aid in the fleecing without any warning.

If it was blatant that this was a scam or big rip off I would have had a word with the neighbour for inviting you around to aid in the scamming without your prior knowledge. Tell him you think this is wrong and you will not let the newby get ripped off. Its despicable that he invited you around as part of the sales pitch without having a word with you. If he can't accept that you wont help the scamming stuff him you dont need scammers as friends.

[Birdman]

Points nebulous:

1) Getting an invitation for a dinner from a problematic neighbourer AND accepting it.

2) OPs relation to the neighbour and the work he has done was never a subject during the dinner.

3) A new farang not asking a local farang (OP) about his opinion.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Birdman

[Daffy D]

What..???....Wash your mouth out with soap... ....a member of TV helping out another farang especially a "tourist or even worse a visa runner !!!!....have you gone insane man ??....TV members dont want the new guys in here, their, HiSo, double doctorate, politically connected wives might run off with them, and would be encroaching on their "empires"....

OMG another of my mometary flashbacks - thought for a second I was in a perfect word

But don't worry it's OK think - I'm alright now

Phew! that was close

[BusyB]

A couple of month ago we were invited by this neighbour for lunch. The reason was, we learned when we arrived, they had an other foreigner for lunch and they were trying to sell him (actually his Thai wife) a piece of land nearby. Nothing wrong with that so far. The only problem is the husband is also an architect / contractor but a very lousy one. We had some problem with them in the past, we eventually found a solution but we said "never again!".

When I told my wife we should warn the new comers, she said it was none of our business, and anyway it was only a land deal. Later we learned more was involved in the deal, including the design of the new house, and of course now they have argument, our neighbours saying the falang doesn't want to pay for their job, him saying they obviously overcharge him for a poor job. Based on our experience, we, actually I, my wife still doesn't want to be involved, think the new comer is right.

Should I have warned the new comer during our meeting ? Anyway, he was looking very self confident at the time and i don't think he would have listen to my advises. And we would have end up with trouble with everybody. As usual, my wife is probably right

Form some reason this post kept surfacing in my mind since I first read it yesterday. Maybe because like everybody else I also face moral decisions in life, and like everybody else I have displayed incredible integrity and courage as well as abysmal cowardice.

But in the shower this morning it occurred to me that there are really two issues at stake here. First your wife insists it’s the ‘Thai way’ to keep quiet and say nothing. Whilst accepting that at face value to begin with, I’d suggest more that she finds conflict uncomfortable and threatening on a personal rather than purely cultural level. Like many Thais she probably hasn’t been schooled (I use that word consciously, having spent considerable time browsing tefl and teaching sites) in the art of constructive conflict and criticism. I’m not blaming her for hiding behind a Land of Smiles narrative – I too find conflict uncomfortable, and perhaps haven’t enjoined a few I should have myself. But I am saying it sounds to me she was simply trying to take an easy way out rather than assert Thai cultural norms

As far as your friend (I’ll avoid the scare quotes for now) is concerned, I have to say that a friend of mine who’d done a botched business job of any kind would have to correct it to 100% satisfaction if they wished to remain on my dinner party list or have me around again. When I’ve made a mistake with friends I go out of my way to rectify it to maintain the friendship, surely that is the basis of trust in a friendship. I didn’t get the impression from your post that he had. It sounded like some kind of compromise was reached - which you weren’t entirely happy with either. Yet this guy then calls you in quite obviously to abuse you as the guarantor in something that smells almost like one of the old BKK gambling scams, (do they still run ’em?) to convince the mark that everything’s OK and above board. At the latest then this character lost any claim to your friendship in my eyes. I think under those circumstances I’d have been inclined to suddenly remember an important appointment and at least give my card to the mark. I certainly wouldn’t want to go back anyway. What’s the adage? Fool me once – shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me (GWB if you’re reading).

As I mentioned, I too have avoided some things I should have perhaps head-butted instead. But there’s always daily form, circumstances, a loved one whispering advice from the side and other distractions to get in the way – and moral decisions are the hardest because they usually involve swimming against the current. It’s probably too late to jump in the deep end now and rescue anyone, which could also now be considered an act of aggression by your "friend". However rather than simply feel guilty, I hope you can sort out and redefine your real relationship with this guy, learn from the experience, and perhaps help your wife develop her conflict instincts and abilities. She has them – as Thais were showing in Pattaya and Songkran recently. ‘Not thai’ indeed .

Edited June 21, 2009 by BusyB

[Pierrot]

Two majors points I guess I didn't make clear enough :

- The contractor is more an incompetent than a crook. We asked him to do some jobs that were way beyond his abilities. Also, as BusyB mentioned, Thais people are not comfortable "in the art of constructive conflict and criticism", so we allowed the problem to deteriorate until I had no choice but to intervene in a very "un-Thai" way. We didn't talk to each other for more than a year, but the wifes have been friends for more than 20 years, so one day it's time to move on ....

- The deal was supposed to be only a land deal, nothing else. I didn't recommend anybody for any job. I just said that the area was very nice at all seasons, which is absolutely true. The guy never asked me for any advise,and I'm not sure he would have been very happy if I told him he was a fool to trust those people.

Actually I've a question for people who read this forum. Most of you (same for me) have a Thai wife.When making an important decision, do you trust more your wife, afterall she's the local, who knows better what's going on, or your own judgement ?

[MJP]

I'm no expert. I do sometimes give hints to newbies who seem receptive to unsolicited advice. Such as, 'spend a year here before buying or building. Don't trust strangers. Don't believe everything you hear. Your wife is still a stranger.'

Good advice. I used to do that.

But now, especially if they're young (late 20's to mid 30's), I hit 'em with a big bat. Really slog 'em. At least it makes them think twice.

[G54]

I'm no expert. I do sometimes give hints to newbies who seem receptive to unsolicited advice. Such as, 'spend a year here before buying or building. Don't trust strangers. Don't believe everything you hear. Your wife is still a stranger.'

Good advice. I used to do that.

But now, especially if they're young (late 20's to mid 30's), I hit 'em with a big bat. Really slog 'em. At least it makes them think twice.

You don't bother to whip 'em into shape with a spare sapling from your garden?

[MJP]

I'm no expert. I do sometimes give hints to newbies who seem receptive to unsolicited advice. Such as, 'spend a year here before buying or building. Don't trust strangers. Don't believe everything you hear. Your wife is still a stranger.'

Good advice. I used to do that.

But now, especially if they're young (late 20's to mid 30's), I hit 'em with a big bat. Really slog 'em. At least it makes them think twice.

You don't bother to whip 'em into shape with a spare sapling from your garden?

I do offer. But they're not into gardening yet. I have 150 spare right now.

[G54]

I'm no expert. I do sometimes give hints to newbies who seem receptive to unsolicited advice. Such as, 'spend a year here before buying or building. Don't trust strangers. Don't believe everything you hear. Your wife is still a stranger.'

Good advice. I used to do that.

But now, especially if they're young (late 20's to mid 30's), I hit 'em with a big bat. Really slog 'em. At least it makes them think twice.

You don't bother to whip 'em into shape with a spare sapling from your garden?

I do offer. But they're not into gardening yet. I have 150 spare right now.

Come to think of it, there may be an employment opportunity here.

a) Plenty of idiots who need whipping into shape over sin-sot.

you have an abundance of saplings.

c) there is unemployment now so maybe you could hire a buxom young lady with large biceps, get the customers - as in (a) - to pay for treatment at the hands of this lady.

[MJP]

Come to think of it, there may be an employment opportunity here.

a) Plenty of idiots who need whipping into shape over sin-sot.

you have an abundance of saplings.

c) there is unemployment now so maybe you could hire a buxom young lady with large biceps, get the customers - as in (a) - to pay for treatment at the hands of this lady.

Okay let's set a meeting date for next week, hows your diary Tuesday?

[isanb]

Actually I've a question for people who read this forum. Most of you (same for me) have a Thai wife.When making an important decision, do you trust more your wife, afterall she's the local, who knows better what's going on, or your own judgement ?

I talk to my wife,

I take into account her arguments

I take my OWN decision

[Orac]

Actually I've a question for people who read this forum. Most of you (same for me) have a Thai wife.When making an important decision, do you trust more your wife, afterall she's the local, who knows better what's going on, or your own judgement ?

I talk to my wife,

I take into account her arguments

I take my OWN decision

When you put it that way then clearly I would not go against what my wife said, especially not for complete stranger - it wouldn't be worth the earache/silence depending on the mood.

[G54]

Come to think of it, there may be an employment opportunity here.

a Plenty of idiots who need whipping into shape over sin-sot.

b you have an abundance of saplings.

c there is unemployment now so maybe you could hire a buxom young lady with large biceps, get the customers - as in (a) - to pay for treatment at the hands of this lady.

Okay let's set a meeting date for next week, hows your diary Tuesday?

If you need a test subject for the buxom lady to whip, I'm your man.....