Xangsamhua Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Surachai is a long time leftists who iirc received a pardon himself once (I wait to be corrected ). Anyway, this analysis of poltically motivated trial and outcome (whatever the merits of the arguement) are a major one for socialist analysis of the state actions. More to the point while that analysis permutate the whole red movement it may be that stressing the political motivation of the decision is something closer to the leftists than to the pragmatics and pure Thaksin supporters who may not care that a pardon implicitly accepts guilt as long as it gets the guy free. Those seeking some kind of socialism may not care too much if Thaksin is hounded for the rest of his life if it highlights their arguements while the more Thaksinista's and the man himself may not be too worried about abandoning an "ideal" if it achieves a result. The details of the case and the decison have been discussed elsewhere (be careful as criticisng a court decison is a crime). In short though it seems to depend on who is backed as to what is thought of the decision. I guess it should be mentioned that several foreign countries have accepted the decison of the Thai judicial system at least implicitly by making Mr. Thaksin unwelcome. So it would appear that there is in fact no evidence for the accusations against the court? Surachai and other critics are just playing Leninist-type political games or relying on conspiracy theory. They seem to be odd bedfellows among the reds - Marxists, Thaksin cargo-cultists, believers in patronage and money politics, disaffected rural types, anti-***********s. I often wonder what really keeps them together, especially during the planting season when people are less attracted by a couple of days' sponsored outing to the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HagenvonTronje Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 They seem to be odd bedfellows among the reds - Marxists, Thaksin cargo-cultists, believers in patronage and money politics, disaffected rural types, anti-***********s. I often wonder what really keeps them together, especially during the planting season when people are less attracted by a couple of days' sponsored outing to the city. you forget the people that are against coups and by the military supported governments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandpops Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 They seem to be odd bedfellows among the reds - Marxists, Thaksin cargo-cultists, believers in patronage and money politics, disaffected rural types, anti-***********s. I often wonder what really keeps them together, especially during the planting season when people are less attracted by a couple of days' sponsored outing to the city. you forget the people that are against coups and by the military supported governments. He was also insulting to probably the hardest workers in the Kingdom with his snide remark about planting seasons. What keeps them together is endless coups and oustings of the parties they vote for, and this goes back long before Thaksins time. The PAD apologists on here seem to think that involvement in politics is the preserve of the middle classes and that farmers should know their place and leave their intellectual superiors to make the decisions for them. Quite acceptable that a minority middle class movement (PAD) should ruin the high season and cause major losses in the airfreight business. Not acceptable at all that anybody from the majority (poor) of the country should show their faces in elite areas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAWP Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Class-struggle, it is not. But thanks grandpops Marx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Thaksin won't stop petition Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra will not stop his supporters from gathering a million signatures to support a petition to His Majesty the King seek a Royal Pardon for the fugitive politician, Thaksin's legal adviser Noppadon Pattama said on Tuesday. Noppadon believed more people were becoming sorry for Thaksin day by day. The former foreign minister said he had spoken to Thaksin, who said he would not be able to stop people from pushing the petition. "The rumours about Thaksin residing in Hong Kong are also false, since he is still staying in the United Arab Emirates," he said. He said Thaksin's recent phone-in speeches were constructive and not trying to stir up the situation as he had made suggestions to solve the economic problems. Continued here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...top-petitioning -- Bangkok Post 2009-06-30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 UDD veteran snubs pardon for ThaksinA core member of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship has joined criticism of a proposed campaign seeking a Royal Pardon for ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra. UDD Leader Surachai sae Dan, a veteran of the red shirt movement, said he would oppose the petition if the UDD was serious about going ahead with it. The campaign to seek a pardon was announced at Saturday's red shirt rally at Sanam Luang by UDD Leader Veera Musikhapong. He will seek a pardon for Thaksin by gathering a million signatures. Surachai said: "I was convicted [of being a communist] and given the death sentence. I did not need a campaign to be launched to seek a Royal Pardon. My son could do that." and now, ANOTHER Red Shirt boss comes out against it, too... UDD backer opposes Thaksin pardon Arismant Pongruangrong, a leading member of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship, said on Tuesday he is opposed to a move started by Veera Musikapong to gather up to one million signatures to support a petition for a Royal Pardon for former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra. Arismant said there might be some misunderstanding concerning this matter because seeking a Royal Pardon would tantamount to an admission of Thaksin's guilt. A petition should be based on calls for justice, he said. Arismant's opinion is similar to that of Surachai Sae Dan, another UDD Leader, who on Monday voiced opposition to the move. Continued here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...yal-pardon-move -- Bangkok Post 2009-06-30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 The definition of disarray.... The Red Shirt Bosses Can't Agree On Basics And The Leader-less Puea Thai Party Is Kicking Out Its Own Members of Parliament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Red-shirts to start collecting signatures Red-shirt supporters will start the task on Thursday of collecting one million signatures for a petition seeking a Royal Pardon for former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, a core leader of the United front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), Veera Musikapong, said on Wednesday. The copies of the petition will be disseminated to the general public from July 2, Veera said. The petition letter would clearly show that the country’s problems, the injustice Thaksin had received, and the political deadlock all stemmed from the Sept 19, 2006 military coup. He was confident that if Thaksin was allowed to return he would give advice which would ease the pressing problems facing the country. Veera denied the petitioners were trying to pressure His Majesty the King into granting a pardon. If the UDD fails to collect one million signatures as planned, it would cancel its campaign, he said. Thaksin's opponents have been vocal in pointing out that only convicts serving a jail term receive a Royal Pardon. Continued here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...ting-signatures -- Bangkok Post 2009-07-01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sao Jiang Mai Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Just because many of us are disgusted by Thaksin doesn't mean that we think that the Isaan poor who vote for him should shut up and be kept in their place. What I personally believe is that Thaksin should be taken out of the equation first before we can move forward. Pray tell me how Thaksin is supposed to come back to run the country and lead his people if he is to be jailed? He is a criminal and deserves to be treated as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 ‘Truth Today’ hosts to seek Royal Pardon for Thaksin BANGKOK, 1 July 2009 (NNT) – The three hosts of the ‘Truth Today’ program are preparing to collect one million names of people to be submitted for a Royal Pardon from His Majesty the King for former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra. The three hosts of the ‘Truth Today’ program, also the United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) core leaders, consisting of Jatuporn Prompan, Veera Musikapong, and Nattawut Saikua chaired a press conference today. They informed that they were currently revising the documents and related forms. The trio expected that the forms would be disseminated to people and UDD supporters afterwards. They said if they could not collect one million names within one month, they would give up and cease operation of the matter. In regards to the disagreement towards this movement of another UDD core leader Surachai Danwattananusorn, the three stated that they respected Surachai’s decision and opinion, saying that Surachai was free to not participate in any activities that he disagreed. In addition, the trio asserted that this reflected a difference in opinion but not disunity in the UDD. -- NNT 2009-07-01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Thaksin's children thankful for campaign seeking Royal Pardon, but not committed As his children, we are grateful that Thais have not forgotten our father and want to thank everyone on his behalf, Pinthongta Shinawatra said on Wednesday in reference to the signature campaign seeking a Royal Pardon for ex-premier Thaksin. "But we will decide when the time comes whether we will be among the one million signatures," she said. Pinthongta was speaking at a press conference along with two older siblings, Panthontae and Paetongtarn. Thaksin's three children appeared at the event to donate Bt500,000 from the sale earnings of their book, "Others call him Thaksin but we call our father", to five charities. -- The Nation 2009-07-01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayboy Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I guess it should be mentioned that several foreign countries have accepted the decison of the Thai judicial system at least implicitly by making Mr. Thaksin unwelcome. I'm not so sure.The quality of the Thai judicial system and the extent of its being harnessed for political purposes has been discussed by observers for decades.Naturally I take no position one way or the other.But there is at least a school of thought that the institutions of state have been marshalled to ensure Thaksin's destruction. The generally unfriendly treatment of Thaksin by Western nations more likely is related to his active involvement in Thai politics from exile.The events of April will have confirmed this, and then some. My view is that it would be quite wrong to assume foreign countries' actions on this matter are informed by their views on the efficacy, incorruptibility and non-politicisation of the Thai judicial system (though I think we can have a pretty good guess what their views might be).Remember in any case the only charge on which Thaksin has been found guilty is trivial.The really serious charges have not been brought against him, nor are they likely to be. So my assumption is that the Brits and the Germans in particular chiefly object to Thaksin stirring up shit from his exile when he should have been concentrating on improving his golf handicap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rixalex Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Remember in any case the only charge on which Thaksin has been found guilty is trivial.The really serious charges have not been brought against him, nor are they likely to be. Also important to remember that his flee from justice has conveniently stalled many cases against him. Where's the justice in that? Fleeing should be considered an admission of guilt and any cases held against a person who is not prepared to stand before the courts should be tried in their absense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Remember in any case the only charge on which Thaksin has been found guilty is trivial.The really serious charges have not been brought against him, nor are they likely to be. Also important to remember that his flee from justice has conveniently stalled many cases against him. Where's the justice in that? Fleeing should be considered an admission of guilt and any cases held against a person who is not prepared to stand before the courts should be tried in their absense. I might be going out on a limb, but I would proffer that anyone who was confined to a Thai prison for 730 days is not likely to consider the experience as "trivial". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) I guess it should be mentioned that several foreign countries have accepted the decison of the Thai judicial system at least implicitly by making Mr. Thaksin unwelcome. I'm not so sure.The quality of the Thai judicial system and the extent of its being harnessed for political purposes has been discussed by observers for decades.Naturally I take no position one way or the other. But there is at least a school of thought that the institutions of state have been marshalled to ensure Thaksin's destruction. The generally unfriendly treatment of Thaksin by Western nations more likely is related to his active involvement in Thai politics from exile. The events of April will have confirmed this, and then some. My view is that it would be quite wrong to assume foreign countries' actions on this matter are informed by their views on the efficacy, incorruptibility and non-politicisation of the Thai judicial system (though I think we can have a pretty good guess what their views might be).Remember in any case the only charge on which Thaksin has been found guilty is trivial.The really serious charges have not been brought against him, nor are they likely to be. So my assumption is that the Brits and the Germans in particular chiefly object to Thaksin stirring up shit from his exile when he should have been concentrating on improving his golf handicap. Martha Stewart didn't do squat politically, But she did a get a sentence for something even less that Thaksin got his for. She was not allowed to enter Great Britain. John Lennon was blocked form the USA for several years for pot use. Thaksin fled from prosecution, and ALSO has attempted to incite unrest from foreign shores. The combination is more than enough reason to be persona non grata, but the fleeing after conviction alone is enough, not to mention avoiding other court dates. The judicial system made it's reasonings publicaly, if not the whole process of deliberation. The governments of the world, no doubt, read and digested those documents and made their own decisions as to veracity and propriety. Several elections and by by-elections down the pike this government is accepted world wide, except by the losing side at home, but that's SOP for opposition parties in disarray. The events of April caught him out boldly, and his facade constructed for the worlds view, crumbled like last years wasp nest in a sudden spring downpour. In reality if this government was judged illicit by the majority of Thai people, it would have caused massive, unsurvivable street protests as a result. Not this little bunch of puppets corraled by Thaksin and PTP's leadership from several different smaller special interest groups, to put presure on the government. Most people are NOT out in the streets over this or any other thing happening from the cabinet. The numbers don't lie. Edited July 1, 2009 by animatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Red-Shirt Leader Defends Royal Pardon Drive A key red-shirt leader is insistent that his group's push for a Royal Pardon for ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra is not aimed at putting pressure on His Majesty the King. Core leader of the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship, or DAAD, Veera Musikapong, said that his group is seeking a Royal Pardon for convicted premier Thaksin Shinawatra, but maintained that it will not incite discord among DAAD members. He did admit, however, that there might be differing viewpoints within the group. Veera said he and other co-hosts of the Truth Today Program on the pro-Thaksin D-Station TV channel will supervise the campaign. He revealed that they are drafting a petition asking for the royal clemency and that application forms will be distributed to the people. Veera expected that the campaign will gather a million names of people asking for a Royal Pardon. The campaign for Thaksin will be concluded by the end of July and applications will be handed out to the people beginning tomorrow. The DAAD leader disclosed that some parts of the petition will deal with the people's economic hardship and that it will also state that inappropriate standards within the judicial system were used in the cases against Thaksin and that severe problems have stemmed from the 2006 military coup. Veera insisted the move is not intended to put pressure on His Majesty the King as speculated by several parties, but said that the matter rests solely on the King's decision. He is certain that all people will accept the outcome, no matter what it is. Meanwhile, Defence Minister General Prawit Wongsuwan said the DAAD's signature campaign must be conducted within the scope of law. Spokesperson of the ruling Democrat Party, Buranut Samutharuk, said he believes the general public want Thaksin's remorse in what he has done before seeking the royal clemency. Buranut said the move should be taken by Thaksin himself, if he wants to get out of serving his sentence, rather than having other people make the demand on his behalf. He also said the campaign aims to put pressure on the Monarchy, which is supposed to stay beyond conflicts of the people. -- Tan Network 2009-07-01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netfan Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 This petition drive shows that Thaksin and his supporters have no dignity, no shame, no respect. To put someone in such a position of having to accept or deny the petition is deplorable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 This petition drive shows that Thaksin and his supporters have no dignity, no shame, no respect. To put someone in such a position of having to accept or deny the petition is deplorable. Beyond deplorable... One could think that; just presenting this upwards, or stating publicly this public pressure is intended in a certain direction, could be seen as lese majesty too. Not sure they are bright enough to see the implications... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryalleman Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Thailand needs to have democracy restored ! and cannot afford to be run like a communist state ! To restore something it must have been there before. Thailand never had any democracy in the past, so how they could restore it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datsun240Z Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Thailand needs to have democracy restored ! and cannot afford to be run like a communist state ! To restore something it must have been there before. Thailand never had any democracy in the past, so how they could restore it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samgrowth Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Red-Shirt Leader Defends Royal Pardon Drive Not all red support Thaksin. Not all yellow support HM. There are always a few exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webfact Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 CLEMENCY BID FOR THAKSIN Reds hunt a million signatures this month By The Nation Published on July 2, 2009 But Democrats say petition improper, opposed by public The red shirts yesterday set a target to gather one million signatures within a month to petition His Majesty the King to pardon ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra. Veera Musigapong, one of the red-shirt leaders, said the petition plan would be scrapped if his group could not gather enough support in one month. He and other leaders of the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD) called a press conference yesterday to discuss the plan to gather a million signatures in support of a request for Royal clemency for Thaksin. Forms for the signature campaign would be distributed to the public today, he said. Veera said Thaksin phoned in during the red-shirt rally last Saturday and complained about being homesick, lonely and wanting his supporters to help him return to the country. "If we can help him come back and solve economic problems facing the country, it would good for the people,'' he said. Nattawut Saikua, another DAAD leader, said Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva should be ashamed that Veera rejected his invitation to join his weekly talk show, but the PM still tried to invite other red-shirt leaders to go on the programme. "All the red shirts don't want to help boost the ratings of Abhisit's programme because they still remember how they were treated by the Abhisit government and the clash with the blue shirts [in Pattaya],'' he said. Meanwhile, Democrat Party spokesman Dr Buranaj Smutharaks warned the red shirts the move to seek Royal clemency risked deepening divisions in the country. He said his party believed the move was not a desire of the public but simply Thaksin's wish. "We believe most people in the country want to see Thaksin repent but we have not heard him admit that he was wrong." He said the red shirts could not say that the public wanted a Royal pardon for Thaksin since Veera and Thaksin's legal adviser Noppadon Pattama were the ones came up with the idea. "They are using mass support to pressure the institution that is above politics,'' he said. Buranaj said authorities would have to keep a watch on the red shirts as Thaksin's phone-in indicated he wanted to bring down the government within three months. "They did it during the Songkran riots and now they have shown intention to do the same thing by using mass support to pressure the government,'' he said. Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said if Thaksin instigated his supporters to try to topple the government as urged in his phone-in, he would be charged with breaking the law. -- The Nation 2009/02/07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongborgP Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Red-Shirt Leader Defends Royal Pardon Drive Not all red support Thaksin. Which Reds don't support Thaksin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siripon Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Red-Shirt Leader Defends Royal Pardon Drive Not all red support Thaksin. Which Reds don't support Thaksin? Some academics, I know law lecturers who think the law has not been applied consistently fairly the last 2 years so they sympathize with the red shirts; but they saw through Thaksin a long time ago and so despair at the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongborgP Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Red-Shirt Leader Defends Royal Pardon Drive Not all red support Thaksin. Which Reds don't support Thaksin? Some academics, I know law lecturers who think the law has not been applied consistently fairly the last 2 years so they sympathize with the red shirts; but they saw through Thaksin a long time ago and so despair at the future. Given the Reds over-whelming support of Thaksin, is it fair to say then that these academics' support for the Reds is marginal and minimal? That its a tepid enthusiasm which is extremely restricted and involves just a handful of people and thus is of no significant impact in the Reds movement whatsoever? Besides these few academics, are they any other Reds that don't support Thaksin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webfact Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 The other day I asked my motocy guy "why do you supports the reds"? Answer: "Reds have too much money! Khun Taksin is a good man because he has too much money! He will come back he give me money!" Vox populi or brainwash? Amazing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insight Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Remember in any case the only charge on which Thaksin has been found guilty is trivial.The really serious charges have not been brought against him, nor are they likely to be. Also important to remember that his flee from justice has conveniently stalled many cases against him. Where's the justice in that? Fleeing should be considered an admission of guilt and any cases held against a person who is not prepared to stand before the courts should be tried in their absense. ... and then go double-or-quits asking for a pardon. Guilty as a puppy next to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Red-Shirt Leader Defends Royal Pardon Drive Not all red support Thaksin. Which Reds don't support Thaksin? Some academics, I know law lecturers who think the law has not been applied consistently fairly the last 2 years so they sympathize with the red shirts; but they saw through Thaksin a long time ago and so despair at the future. Given the Reds over-whelming support of Thaksin, is it fair to say then that these academics' support for the Reds is marginal and minimal? That its a tepid enthusiasm which is extremely restricted and involves just a handful of people and thus is of no significant impact in the Reds movement whatsoever? Besides these few academics, are they any other Reds that don't support Thaksin? So you are saying, the only reds who don't support Thaksin, are Educated University Professors from the burgeoning middle class? And it is only on narrow ideological reasons do the support the Reds at all? It would be interesting to see a demographics survey of the Red side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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