Toilets Are The Big Problem For Education

[Scott]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/1941...on-foul-toilets

I don't know how many people read the article in the BKK Post, but it seems that of all the problems they feel they need to tackle to improve education is to improve the toilets.

My experience is limited to private schools, who may have better funding, but we don't really have much of a problem with this. How about other schools?

[Scott]

Here's a snippet from the article:

"We asked them [students] what they think is the most serious trouble in schools and they answered 'toilets'," Office of the Basic Education Commission (Obec) secretary-general Khunying Kasama Varavarn na Ayudhya said.

[fred2007]

Yes excactly CRAP

[Jingthing]

Yes excactly CRAP

And if you are female, CA CA.

[fred2007]

Yes excactly CRAP

And if you are female, CA CA.

[Scott]

Well, now I am confused. The students seem to think it's the condition of the toilets that is the big problem at school. The problem, IMO, isn't what goes into them.

Does anybody have experience that would indicate that the condition of toilets is really that drastic that it affects the standard of education? Could this just be one of those situations where 'brick and mortar' is seen as a solution to other problems? Is this a cultural sort of approach to problems--where I work, it seems that if the flowers, gardens and grass are all neat, then everything is OK.

Let's try to keep it roughly on-topic.

[markg]

Nothing at all wrong with the toilets in our school. They've been completely refurbished within the last 3 years and, quite unbelievably, the cleaner has a cleaning regime which ranges between 'constant' and 'very often'

There is always paper in the dispenser too.

And hand soap.

The block i work in is 4 storeys and is 2 years old. However, the students still think there are ghosts in the toilets and have to go in pairs. I know for a fact no one has died in the building !

Good points from Scott though. A decent looking school, with decent facilities is 'more likely' to produce better results. I do however think it's more to do with standards of teaching, methodologies, the MoE and a whole plethora of other things.

Just yesterday a senior Thai teacher told me that the MoE want to keep the general population subjugated.

And i believe her too.

[lannarebirth]

Is Chalerm's kid still on his "Mr. Happy Toilet" campaign?

[PeaceBlondie]

With all due respect to any Thai with the rank of 'kunying,' I would hope that Office of the Basic Education Commission (Obec) has higher priorities, This puts a new slant on the concept of 'student-centered learning.' This quote sounds like scape-goating: "The resulting deterioration of the students' peace of mind makes pushing ahead with education reform more difficult despite years of effort, she said."

Please, lady - push ahead with education reform. Student-centered learning is far more than toilets. More, better trained, better paid new teachers. Critical thinking. Fail failing students. Essay questions...

[Texpat]

Likely not enough accessible holes between the stalls.

To the students, that's likely a problem that requires rectifying.

[Ijustwannateach]

Being somewhat cynical about these surveys and how they are framed.... imagine the question framed in this way:

Do you agree that toilets need improvement? Y/N

Are toilets an important issue at school? Y/N

Thank you for participating.

Unfortunately, there is a tendency in government agencies- especially education - not to suggest that corruption is important- to proliferate projects which allow skimming (construction is an excellent choice).

That said, there are some serious hygiene, plumbing, and cleaning-service issues at many schools, and of course they would affect large numbers of students.

[Scott]

I want to make sure that I am not completely out of the loop. My circle of schools is limited, and although I've visited a few upcountry schools, it just didn't seem that toilets were a big issue. Maybe they really are. Or maybe it's a smokescreen. I've seen libraries without books, I've seen audio visual rooms without equipment and I've seen equipment that wasn't used or broken. I've seen plenty of computers that didn't work etc.

I assume at most schools there are plenty of problems. At mine, the noise level really gets to me. The solution isn't to ask students to quiet down, it's to bring a megaphone into the classroom, making the noise level everywhere else worse. I've complained to the Admin about this because it really is disruptive to those students who are trying to nap!

[twschw]

At my first job. a very large government high school in Bangkok, when I took a pee in the urinal I felt something wet splashing on my shoe. Low and behold, the urinal was not connected to the drain pipe and I had just peed on the floor. The first 2 floors, where visitors came, were fine, but the top 4 floors rarely had more than one or two functioning toilets.

[Scott]

Thanks. That would be a distressing situation. We aren't allowed to wear shoes in the toilet, (flip-flops at the door). I think I would have been upset.

So part of the ciriculum was teaching children how to 'widen their stance.'

[xerostar]

I was surprised to find nobody in this thread (so far) is worried about this situation!

I have visited two high schools in this "up-country" region and I was simply horrified by the

sqalour and filth that I discovered in the toilets.

Faeces were in every corner and smeared on the walls and all around the toilet porcelain,

even faeces swimming in the water troughs and on the plastic bowls floating in there.

There was urine an inch deep in places where the floor slope prevented drainage to the outside.

The stench was enough to make me dry reach.

I backed out of the place and naturally my shoes had become contaminated.

I found a place to pee out the back.

They probably have a "cleaning person" but he/she has never been shown how to clean a toilet

and probably knows less about hygiene than the children.

If I was confronted with that mess to clean up, frankly I would not know where to start.

Perhaps I would consider hiring a motorised steam cleaner or high pressure water gun.

But then you'd need to wear a protective suit and breathing apparatus to get the job done.

Then you'd need to start teaching the children the basics of hygiene.

Difficult when they have no hygienic facilities at home!

I installed wash basins at my MIL's place but I don't think they are used at all.

I asked my Thai step son aged 12 if the toilets were clean at his school and he said NO.

He said he tries to wait until he gets home to go to the toilet, he doesn't like to use the school toilets.

He had 2 years school in Australia so he was able to make an informed judgement.

Not that I agree that this is THE problem but IMHO it is a fundamental symptom of the problems with Thai education system.

In general with my immediate Thai family I witness (daily) the lack of regard for hygiene shown in the kitchen and bathroom. The concept of "Bacteria" is met with disinterest and dismissed as yet another Falung obsession.

I refuse to have my meals prepared outside where most of the family do their cooking and eating.

I have my own small kitchen inside, free of flys, mosquitos and roaming dogs.

We have built an incinerator to dispose of the garbage (there is no garbage collection here)

I have tried to train the family to put lids on rubbish bins (they know not why).

I have also organised them to recycle glass, plastic and paper.

A collector comes for that stuff once a month.

At least now the house does not look as if it was built in the middle of a rubbish dump!

I believe it's an important issue because until you are aware of the need for hygiene, you see no need to

improve your surroundings and improve your living standard.

This statement is very broad I know.

If you have no motivation to keep your surroundings clean and presentable then you see no reason to educate yourself, get a good job and earn the money required to make a nice home to be proud of, keep your children healthy, and keep your home free of pollution, dirt and rubbish - visible or invisible.

Other members of this forum will probably explain it far better than I.

There is some merit in living in ignorance. Perhaps you live a happier, carefree life?

For me, I prefer a happy medium, leaning towards cleanliness, starting with the toilets!

[BigSnake]

Toilet are a blood shame in most of the public school. I have seem them on attend several events for son/daughter. There are Jaintors, but in our(this) public school there are some 5500 students and 10 or so Jaintors, almost and impossible task to cleanup behind all the kids, suggest to the Principal one time was have the bad boys caught smoking in the toilet, do a little cleanup duty with the Jaintors, just a little smile and from him, I could see a parent getting all up in arm about his or her child being punish like this,"I send my child to school to learn not to clean toilet" Well hello mom/dad did you tell your CHILD this, I don't think so, or he just don't listen to you ever. RANT!! nuff said

[harrry]

You probably would get the same response if you asked most kids in Western countries what they disliked about school. Same problem lots of kids shared toilets and little money/interest in cleaning. I know the subject came up a couple of times in Australia when my daughter was at school.

Of course another problem in Australia is that teachers must have their own toiletsa as they couldnt use the ones for the kids. I always thought if the teachers used the main toilets they could nip behavior problems in the bud

Edited July 2, 2009 by harrry

[hansnl]

You probably would get the same response if you asked most kids in Western countries what they disliked about school. Same problem lots of kids shared toilets and little money/interest in cleaning. I know the subject came up a couple of times in Australia when my daughter was at school.

Of course another problem in Australia is that teachers must have their own toiletsa as they couldnt use the ones for the kids. I always thought if the teachers used the main toilets they could nip behavior problems in the bud

Besides the implied "problems" of teachers using the same toilets as pupils in your reaction, now try to imagine Thai teachers doing that.....or even thinking about.

Edited July 2, 2009 by hansnl

[Scott]

Xerostar and Bigsnake, thanks. It's good to hear that the problem is real and not just something that some official is making up. (I don't mean to insinuate that that I am glad the toilets are bad).

I guess living in BKK sometimes makes us forget that there is a world out there that is vastly different from ours.

[harrry]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_6...600/6742693.stm

[leftnose]

I want to make sure that I am not completely out of the loop. My circle of schools is limited, and although I've visited a few upcountry schools, it just didn't seem that toilets were a big issue. Maybe they really are.

...

I assume at most schools there are plenty of problems. At mine, the noise level really gets to me. The solution isn't to ask students to quiet down, it's to bring a megaphone into the classroom, making the noise level everywhere else worse. I've complained to the Admin about this because it really is disruptive to those students who are trying to nap!

Toilets are a problem where I am at. I think administrators consider them high visibility when visitors come to tour the school. I do think they need to be improved. But toilets are not why the education system here is troubled. With limited funding priorities need to be established.

My daughter is well into her second month of the current term and to date has only two textbooks, English and Thai. Social studies, math, science, and all other subjects are being taught using worksheets, xeroxed handouts, and class lectures only. The students and parents have been informed by the administration that the books will be provided, so we haven't gone out to buy them.

I think textbooks, should be given a higher priority than toilets.

off-thread,

I have voiced the same point about megaphones to some Thai teachers here, not because it disrupts napping students, but because it instills the concept that loudness is an acceptable way to get people's attention in a classroom. The student's chattering doesn't end when the megaphone is used btw.

[Scott]

Thanks. I was being sarcastic about the napping--most kids seem to be able to sleep through anything! Noise isn't a problem that is cured by more noise.

[Xangsamhua]

With all due respect to any Thai with the rank of 'kunying,' I would hope that Office of the Basic Education Commission (Obec) has higher priorities, This puts a new slant on the concept of 'student-centered learning.' This quote sounds like scape-goating: "The resulting deterioration of the students' peace of mind makes pushing ahead with education reform more difficult despite years of effort, she said."

Please, lady - push ahead with education reform. Student-centered learning is far more than toilets. More, better trained, better paid new teachers. Critical thinking. Fail failing students. Essay questions...

Kunying Kassama is no dimwit - PhD from Harvard etc. I think she knows what the real weaknesses and priorities in education are, but must be within months of retirement. She's just responding to the questions and the BP is highlighting the toilets issue.

I once worked in a teachers' college some distance north of here and the toilets were so bad I'd go home rather than use them. I can just imagine some kids in school, especially the girls, being so put off and having no alternative that it would be a source of real anxiety to them.

Having said that, the toilets at our school are constantly being cleaned and are perfectly OK.

[xerostar]

Thanks for that link Harry!

The survey was done in the UK, so the problem appears to be world wide!

Not just a Thai problem as I thought ..

My idea for a cure would be cumpulsory toilet cleaning duty for all students!

The duties should give them a personal sense of responsibility and the need to

keep the toilets/bathrooms nice.

Having an adult janitor to do the cleaning defeats the purpose.

All they learn is:

"Oh well, somebody will clean up after me, so I'll be as messy as I want .."

or "that old cleaning lady sure is a schmuck, cleaning up all my shit .."

"Old people are good for one thing - being toilet cleaners!"

- "hope I die before I get old enough to clean toilets!"

"This toilet really stinks - glad it's not me cleaning up ..eeewww!"

Of course it would be hard to expect students to clean up neglected 100 year old toilets.

There is a need for architects to design toilet rooms that are easy to clean and maintain

as well as having vandal-proof fittings and walls that have graffiti repellant paint.

Autoflushing is an essential. Teaching kids how to clean their bums

would be a funny subject to teach but I'm sure not many know how to do it.

The use of bum guns should be mandatory. The majority of westerners need to

learn too that smearing faeces around the nether regions with paper is not an effective

or hygienic method.

Damp paper sheets designed for the purpose is a start in the right direction. ("Wet Ones")

Some high-tech toilets have everything built in.

I believe the Japanese have advanced a lot in making toilets more hygienic and automatic.

[tigerboy]

My idea for a cure would be cumpulsory toilet cleaning duty for all students!

The duties should give them a personal sense of responsibility and the need to

keep the toilets/bathrooms nice.

I thought that was usually addressed in "Basic Training" when in the military. In any case, I've no objection to your idea for a cure.

[CosmicSurfer]

I guess living in BKK sometimes makes us forget that there is a world out there that is vastly different from ours.

You should get around more!

I've been teaching for 8 Years in some of THE TOP Government high schools in Bangkok... By the Top, I mean one was established by a King over 100 years ago, and another was chosen by Thaksin to go to, to teach a class in math... plus a few others... And I can tell you that in all these schools the toilet situation was disgusting to the degree that in any community in the US or Canada these places would be shut down immediately by the Board of Health....

And... never mind no toilet paper.... In 8 years I NEVER.. ABSOLUTELY NEVER.. saw a toilet with any form of SOAP.... let alone a paper towel to dry your hands on.

This situation existed not only in the Students toilets, but also the the Teachers private toilets... No Soap... Never!!!!

Even the teachers toilets were disgusting, with dirty water and mud covering the floors....

First thing I do at any new school is to find the Toilets reserved for visiting parents or VIPs... and that is the only one I would use!

CS

Edited July 3, 2009 by CosmicSurfer

[RandyWhite]

I have taught at over twenty-two schools here in the last 20 years: there's no general correlation between the cost of school fees and whether their toilets have soap - and I suspect that what a lot of the survey respondents were alluding to was the dysfunctional management responsible for such 'penny-wise / pound foolish' stupidity.

Sum up: 'The Kids Are Alright'.