The Expat Factor

[henryalleman]

And you said it, we can disagree about the magnitude. I never said that you are a burden, just that if you are going to figure these things out, you have to look at both sides of the coin, the benefits you bring, and the costs you incur? Not that hard to accept that there are costs and benefits to every action one takes in society?

Agreed, and I hope you will have the honesty to admit that the benefits for the Thai state are at least a tenfold of the costs concerning a retiree living in thailand.

[henryalleman]

what truly surprises me is this

why are we all sitting here debating the merits of what has been proven to be beneficial to EVERY economy for as long as human beings can remember?

trade - be it foeign or domestic - is something that has developed from the traditional barter system.

of course we know its beneficial. hence every person/country that would like to prosper and/ or exercise choice and free will want to engage in it.

but here is the bottom line about trade:

it is MUTUALLY beneficial. else the parties wouldnt engage in trading.

so yes thai people/government/corporations are aware that trading with foreigners can be beneficial (but not any different to expanding your market base from say a region in one country to a region outside the country). similarly the foreigners (or domestic) trading partners enter into such transactions because they too have something to gain from these transactions.

so what are we debating? how grateful thai people should be that we enter into a trading with foreigners? then my suggestion is those same foreigners should be grateful for such business transactions they CHOOSE to engage in ..... and the same logic applies to any other transactions that take place between local partners

(when I use the term trade, transactions - i use it to also cover whatever other engagement - be it investment of whatever sort)

maybe I missed the point? hmmmmm

Yes, you did missed the point; The OP was

The expat factor

How do we affect the Thai economy;

and how thailand could benifit if they make this country more atractive for retirees. Nobody and certainly not I expect any gratitude from Thai people for that.

Edited July 6, 2009 by henryalleman

[Datsun240Z]

Singapore, Dubai and Argentinia are Third World countries?

The map is old and one has to distinguish between Thailand and POOR countries like the Least Developed Countries, as defined by the United Nations

Thailand "Scores o.k in " Developed Countries"

[wefearourdespot]

Singapore, Dubai and Argentinia are Third World countries?

The map is old and one has to distinguish between Thailand and POOR countries like the Least Developed Countries, as defined by the United Nations

Thailand "Scores o.k in " Developed Countries"

Really a nice map.

I do really appreciate the way it puts Thailand on the same level of North Korea, Libya, Venezuela and Cuba

[Jingthing]

Here is another way to measure how poorly developed Thailand is compared to a first world country. Samran insists comparing Thailand to Australia is valid. Not even close!

Thailand average GDP about 8000 dollars, Australia's about 37,000 dollars.

Interestingly, among the countries in the same lower class as Thailand, a number do have organized programs for expat retirees. Some have lower financial requirements than Thailand, some require more, but none require anywhere NEAR what Australia requires to be an expat retiree.

BTW, there is some talk that the USA may be considering an expat retirement program as it has none now. This reflects the economic decline of the USA, and the USA could most certainly benefit from wealthier expat retirees the same as Australia.

I do admit the label third world isn't especially meaningful, but there certainly are huge wealth differences across nations and regions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...PPP)_per_capita

50 Poland 17,482

51 Latvia 17,071

52 Russia 15,922

53 Botswana 14,882

54 Mexico 14,560 Expat retiree program

55 Libya 14,533

56 Chile 14,510

57 Gabon 14,478

58 Argentina 14,413 Expat retiree program

59 Saint Kitts and Nevis 14,169

60 Malaysia 14,072 Expat retiree program

61 Uruguay 13,295 Expat retiree program

62 Turkey 13,138

63 Lebanon 13,032

64 Venezuela 12,785

65 Romania 12,580

66 Bulgaria 12,341 Expat retirement program

67 Belarus 12,291

68 Mauritius 11,992

69 Kazakhstan 11,416

70 Panama 11,343 Expat retiree program

71 Iran 11,250

72 Montenegro 11,092

73 Grenada 10,843

74 Saint Lucia 10,819

75 Serbia 10,792

76 Costa Rica 10,752 Expat retiree program

77 Brazil 10,326 Expat retiree program

78 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 10,150

79 South Africa 10,119 Expat retiree program

80 Dominica 10,046

81 Macedonia, Republic of 9,157

82 Azerbaijan 8,620

83 Peru 8,580 Expat retiree program

84 Dominican Republic 8,571 Expat retiree program

85 Suriname 8,324

86 Thailand 8,225 Expat retiree program

87 Colombia 8,215

88 Tunisia 7,963

89 Belize 7,882 Expat retiree program

90 Jamaica 7,766

91 Ecuador 7,685 Expat retiree program

Edited July 6, 2009 by Jingthing

[Heng]

Don't you think the thousands of English teachers working to bring Thai English skills up to average standard contributes to the Thai society? These guys get ragged on, but come on, what would Thailand do without them?

Compared to the level of 'Immigrants' that western people suffer from I'd say Thailands got the better deal.

I'd say the jury is still out on this one. Whether these folks are bringing up (on the whole, apart from whoever these gals/guys happen to marry) the 'average standard' and whether that benefits Thai society as a whole... or even if it benefits commerce is questionable. Another possibility is that the restrictive immigration system here is exactly what is preventing the type of net negative economic effect (if that's what you're suggesting, which is also debatable) that immigrants create in many economies in the west.

I may be biased but from personal experience, I think creating more 'inter-Thais' is the way to go. More full scholarships to families with modestly successful SME enterprises (when you give these to country folks with no economic base, they have nothing to plug their knowledge and energy into when they get back). They just about all inevitably return home and bring all of their experiences and abilities with them, without the culture shock issues, immigration and property ownership tug-of-war, etc. Also, in the long run, they don't end up with fixed income levels pretty much capped in the TEFL industry with virtually no other legal income earning opportunities at the same time having to provide for a local family (which many end up with as well).

[samran]

samran has several valid points, and several irrelevant points.

story of my life....

[Dakhar]

Don't you think the thousands of English teachers working to bring Thai English skills up to average standard contributes to the Thai society? These guys get ragged on, but come on, what would Thailand do without them?

Compared to the level of 'Immigrants' that western people suffer from I'd say Thailands got the better deal.

I'd say the jury is still out on this one. Whether these folks are bringing up (on the whole, apart from whoever these gals/guys happen to marry) the 'average standard' and whether that benefits Thai society as a whole... or even if it benefits commerce is questionable. Another possibility is that the restrictive immigration system here is exactly what is preventing the type of net negative economic effect (if that's what you're suggesting, which is also debatable) that immigrants create in many economies in the west.

I may be biased but from personal experience, I think creating more 'inter-Thais' is the way to go. More full scholarships to families with modestly successful SME enterprises (when you give these to country folks with no economic base, they have nothing to plug their knowledge and energy into when they get back). They just about all inevitably return home and bring all of their experiences and abilities with them, without the culture shock issues, immigration and property ownership tug-of-war, etc. Also, in the long run, they don't end up with fixed income levels pretty much capped in the TEFL industry with virtually no other legal income earning opportunities at the same time having to provide for a local family (which many end up with as well).

I would think it would be a hard sell to give the already obviously privaledged Thais more privaledges.... but then again, this is Thailand...... so it would probably work~!

[ozzieovaseas]

Funny how some folks like to translate 'foreign' to only mean 'farang.'

exactly.

It could be that many poster don't interact seriously with others than farangs. Even in Thailand. Even on this forum.

If you are both reffering to me than i AM sorry!

I use both words and intermine them at times without even thinking.

I guess you are alluding to the use of the word "farang" meaning a white foriegner,with your point being the acknowledgement of the many other non-white foriegners in LOS??

I associate with and have respect for ALL people regardless of any nametags people lump on them.

In any case a lot of people on here are probably not even aware of the distinction between or meaning of the two words, so i would suggest there is no conspiracy being aimed at any other nationality.

Peace brothers!!

[Pierrot]

I know I'm going to bruise some egos here, but all "expats" are not equals.

Uneducated Chinese from some of the poorest rural place in China have been proved more valuable for Thailand, in the short and long run, than most immigrants from the "first" world. And I believe Japanese are close second.

[Datsun240Z]

I know I'm going to bruise some egos here, but all "expats" are not equals.

Uneducated Chinese from some of the poorest rural place in China have been proved more valuable for Thailand, in the short and long run, than most immigrants from the "first" world. And I believe Japanese are close second.

http://www.bridgeworld.org/ges/

[Heng]

I would think it would be a hard sell to give the already obviously privaledged Thais more privaledges.... but then again, this is Thailand...... so it would probably work~!

Well it's all relative. Obviously I don't mean just the families at the uppermost tier, as there would still need to be some financial need demonstrated, just not of the bare bones variety; I think there could be a scale to determine who could be pushed further and faster AND still come back and do something productive other than just become a professor with no experience (which is what happens to a lot of folks with no business foundation family wise). From the families that own a few small businesses but can barely afford out of state/foreign student tuition (using the US as an example) to the ones who can easily afford that tuition but can't afford the higher tiered private universities, I'd look at it as not helping the privileged but more of a weeding out/development process not unlike how they determine who the best athletes are/who can become professionals, putting them through higher and higher levels of training and competition. The goal would be to create more and more 'quarterbacks' instead of just making sure more people in the stadium get an extra bag of peanuts.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Heng

[dbrenn]

I was just wondering with the fickle tourism sector and export sector suffering, how much of an effect do we expats have on the Thai economy??

How many expats living in country at least 6 months of the year??

What's our average contribution to the Thai economy?? [immigration requirements minimum 65K THB/mo Retirement. 800K THB in bank and we mostly go over that amount]

Not to mention the houses we finance for our own families [and extended families] and autos we buy and businesses we set up and how many 'sick buffalos' we help etc etc.

Just wondering if there are any official figures or educated estimates from TV members [who seem to know everything]

And what's the trend now.....more expats leaving or arriving??

And is the Thai govmt aware of the contributions we make??

The entire tourist industry accounts for just 6% of Thailand's GDP. Living in their expat world, a lot of farangs make complaints and demands as if Thailand can't do without them, when in fact they make little difference to the economy as a whole.

[DP25]

BTW, Thailand isn't a tiger anymore. It is a SICK KITTY. It once WAS an Asian tiger. Thanks to the political situation here, but the locals will probably blame farangs.

That map has nothing to do with wealth or strength of the economy or anything like that. It is a cold war era political map. The 1st world is the Western and NATO allies plus their allies in Japan and Korea. The 2nd world is the Communist allies; the Soviet Union, Warsaw Pact, and China. The 3rd world is everyone else. In the past the 1st world countries were generally rich, while the 2nd and 3rd poor, but that is no longer the case, and the whole classification system based on cold war era political alliances is archaic and useless.

Edited July 7, 2009 by DP25

[Pierrot]

I know I'm going to bruise some egos here, but all "expats" are not equals.

Uneducated Chinese from some of the poorest rural place in China have been proved more valuable for Thailand, in the short and long run, than most immigrants from the "first" world. And I believe Japanese are close second.

http://www.bridgeworld.org/ges/

Maybe there is problem with your link but I honestly don't understand your point

[henryalleman]

The entire tourist industry accounts for just 6% of Thailand's GDP. Living in their expat world, a lot of farangs make complaints and demands as if Thailand can't do without them, when in fact they make little difference to the economy as a whole.

I can only speak for myself. I don't make complaints or demand anything special. I live an anonymous life an apply myself to the rules of the country and feel perfectly happy with it. But that's not the point. The point is, that if Thailand make the country attractive for retirees to relocate they could have a few billions extra income with little costs.

100 000 retirees will inject about 100 billion Baht into the economy.

I don't mentioned the expats who are working here, or the ones who live an questionable lifestyle and doing visa runs. I was talking about the 100% legit retirees who can apply for an retirement visa, and the ones who are married and like to spend the winter of their life in the homecountry of their wife. many of our friends are married 20 years or longer(with the same Thai spous).I'm even agreed with the financial rules because it keeps the unwanted out.

[Pierrot]

Well it's all relative. Obviously I don't mean just the families at the uppermost tier, as there would still need to be some financial need demonstrated, just not of the bare bones variety; I think there could be a scale to determine who could be pushed further and faster AND still come back and do something productive other than just become a professor with no experience (which is what happens to a lot of folks with no business foundation family wise). From the families that own a few small businesses but can barely afford out of state/foreign student tuition (using the US as an example) to the ones who can easily afford that tuition but can't afford the higher tiered private universities, I'd look at it as not helping the privileged but more of a weeding out/development process not unlike how they determine who the best athletes are/who can become professionals, putting them through higher and higher levels of training and competition. The goal would be to create more and more 'quarterbacks' instead of just making sure more people in the stadium get an extra bag of peanuts.

It seems you have a limited knowledge of Thai middle class outside Bangkok. I happen to know a lot of those middle class people who got university degree in local or foreign university and are now middle managers in international (read mostly foreign) companies. And will be the future G M in a couple of years, like it or not.

I won't comment your "elitist" system, so close to what they tried to do in the former eastern block, with the success we know.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Pierrot

[cmdream]

I wrote it before somewhere.

Presume an retiree spend approximately about 1 million baht a year. Money that is directly injected in the Thai economy from outside the country;

So 1000 retirees contribute 1 billion Baht a year to the Thai economy.

So making an attractive country for pensioners could be an important source of income for the country, because they are net contributors to the Thai economy, they don't take away any job from any Thai people, and they inject an considerable amount of foreign currency into the country.

And then I not yet mention that they cost NOTTHING to the Thai government.

In fact they could be a very nice little goldmine for Thailand or should I say money tree, who bear fruits all year long.

Extremely well thought out and succinct. Nail on the head, Money into Thailand from retired expats, no cost to the Thais. My $20K usd+ per year

( retirement money) could be spent in Malaysia, Phillipines, Vietnam or any other country. No need to confuse with comparing with Australia or any other country. It is Cash into Thailand, period! The multiples must be significant. The underground economy alone is sumptuous. EG: bar fines , girlfriend for a night money, massage tips etc. Farang building houses for their little ladies, support for extended Thai families the list goes on. I think expats contribute a sizable amount to the economy here. President Arroyo

is certainly onto something that the Thai Immigration should be aware of.

Chok Dee

[MrHammer]

Don't you think the thousands of English teachers working to bring Thai English skills up to average standard contributes to the Thai society? These guys get ragged on, but come on, what would Thailand do without them?

Compared to the level of 'Immigrants' that western people suffer from I'd say Thailands got the better deal.

I'd say the jury is still out on this one. Whether these folks are bringing up (on the whole, apart from whoever these gals/guys happen to marry) the 'average standard' and whether that benefits Thai society as a whole... or even if it benefits commerce is questionable. Another possibility is that the restrictive immigration system here is exactly what is preventing the type of net negative economic effect (if that's what you're suggesting, which is also debatable) that immigrants create in many economies in the west.

I may be biased but from personal experience, I think creating more 'inter-Thais' is the way to go. More full scholarships to families with modestly successful SME enterprises (when you give these to country folks with no economic base, they have nothing to plug their knowledge and energy into when they get back). They just about all inevitably return home and bring all of their experiences and abilities with them, without the culture shock issues, immigration and property ownership tug-of-war, etc. Also, in the long run, they don't end up with fixed income levels pretty much capped in the TEFL industry with virtually no other legal income earning opportunities at the same time having to provide for a local family (which many end up with as well).

I suggest Thailand try to be a little more international, so it could attract the kind of expats who go to Singapore or Hong Kong. Thailands got a great location as a hub for SE Asia, but doesn't seem to want to be it.

When I suggest some of my friends who are educated in business schools back home that they come work as expats, they never take it seriously even if they could jump up the ladder. It's really stupid to me that Thai employment laws restrict educated foreigners to only teaching English for most. Basically you get two kind of working expats, the young English teaching guys and established top level guys. Why wouldn't you want more young career driven expats in more positions? I have been lucky to have studied with young Thais educated abroad, so I know there are plenty of international Thais. But dubbing your TV, deliberately mispronouncing English (too not be considered arrogant and non-Thai, my teacher told me!), shows thats not the goal of the majority.

Am I wrong in thinking that would threaten the status quo too much?

As for your education plan, I guess you want the uneducated to stay uneducated? Keeps wages down I suppose.

[Heng]

It seems you have a limited knowledge of Thai middle class outside Bangkok. I happen to know a lot of those middle class people who got university degree in local or foreign university and are now middle managers in international (read mostly foreign) companies. And will be the future G M in a couple of years, like it or not.

I won't comment your "elitist" system, so close to what they tried to do in the former eastern block, with the success we know.

Perhaps, but I'm well aware of that fate as well, and IMO that's a less productive role for these folks. I think they could be of more benefit to the economy and country if they were running their own businesses. Like it or not, indifferent actually.

[Heng]

Am I wrong in thinking that would threaten the status quo too much?

As for your education plan, I guess you want the uneducated to stay uneducated? Keeps wages down I suppose.

Status quo IMO is what it is without any control whatsoever. I don't believe it can be controlled any more than the weather can. A better question would be, why do the uneducated remain uneducated. Why don't they pull themselves up bit by bit?

[Pierrot]

It seems you have a limited knowledge of Thai middle class outside Bangkok. I happen to know a lot of those middle class people who got university degree in local or foreign university and are now middle managers in international (read mostly foreign) companies. And will be the future G M in a couple of years, like it or not.

I won't comment your "elitist" system, so close to what they tried to do in the former eastern block, with the success we know.

Perhaps, but I'm well aware of that fate as well, and IMO that's a less productive role for these folks. I think they could be of more benefit to the economy and country if they were running their own businesses. Like it or not, indifferent actually.

So you want to promote an "entrepreneur" society ? But is it compatible with the Thai "sabai sabai" attitude ?

From The Economist :

"Dr Nesse believes that persistence is a reason for the exceptional level of clinical depression in America—the country that has the highest depression rate in the world. “Persistence is part of the American way of life,” he says. “People here are often driven to pursue overly ambitious goals, which then can lead to depression.” He admits that this is still an unproven hypothesis, but it is one worth considering."

http://www.economist.com/sciencetechnology...ory_id=13899022

PS : I'm getting sick and tired to see Greenspan face every time I type by mistake"theeconomist.com". They say "THE Economist of the Century" ... because he's responsible of THE Crisis of the Century ?

[Gerontion]

A better question would be, why do the uneducated remain uneducated.

Because they're kept that way.

Why don't they pull themselves up bit by bit?

When they try, they're shat on by the Thai state. Didn't you notice the coup? Or were you too busy wanking over your bank balance?

[Heng]

A better question would be, why do the uneducated remain uneducated.

Because they're kept that way.

Why don't they pull themselves up bit by bit?

When they try, they're shat on by the Thai state. Didn't you notice the coup? Or were you too busy wanking over your bank balance?

That's an excuse from the 'why don't they serve it to me on a platter' crowd, the kind of thinking that results in hordes of people travelling en masse to stage their sit-in's trying to get the gov't to fix their personal problems by begging for fuel price handicaps and market price mulligans.

Wank with my own hands? LOL!

Edited July 8, 2009 by Heng

[Heng]

So you want to promote an "entrepreneur" society ? But is it compatible with the Thai "sabai sabai" attitude ?

As I mentioned, before we try to alter society as a whole, we need more captains and quarterbacks. The sabai sabai crowd should then have more jobs available for them to turn wrenches, push buttons, affix chips, etc. and still have plenty of time for their sabai activities or doing nothing. Those who want to go the hard way (the higher risk, higher reward route) as always are more than welcome to break ranks and hack their way through the jungle.

[Gerontion]

That's an excuse from the 'why don't they serve it to me on a platter' crowd, the kind of thinking that results in hordes of people travelling en masse trying to get the gov't to fix their personal problems by begging for fuel price handicaps and market price mulligans.

No. It's. Not.

It's a request - perhaps a foolishly utopian one - for the state to serve the people, rather than the current arrangement which has things the other way around.

[Pierrot]

So you want to promote an "entrepreneur" society ? But is it compatible with the Thai "sabai sabai" attitude ?

As I mentioned, before we try to alter society as a whole, we need more captains and quarterbacks. The sabai sabai crowd should then have more jobs available for them to turn wrenches, push buttons, affix chips, etc. and still have plenty of time for their sabai activities or doing nothing. Those who want to go the hard way (the higher risk, higher reward route) as always are more than welcome to break ranks and hack their way through the jungle.

You very rightly point out the major problem of Thailand, an army of generals and soldiers, but nobody in the middle.

The question of why the uneducated stay uneducated is a very good question. Why some society can promote "good" social value and other can't ? Thailand had only survived because of the regular influx of Chinese and, to a lesser extend, Japanese, which answers the original question, but maybe not in the way the OP expected.

But to answer your post, as a society, as far as education and work ethic are concerned, Thailand is a failure. So maybe it's time for a change ...

Edited July 8, 2009 by Pierrot

[thaihome]

Always an interesting topic. The only thing that ever seems to come out it off it though is the fact that people’s position on the subject is almost entirely dictated by their place in the expat world of Thailand.

I am curious about the continued use of the term “hard currency” by one poster. Can he explain how he thinks that is an extra benefit some how? To my knowledge the baht is a completely exchangeable currency that is traded on most boards at relatively stable rates against all other currencies and as there is no USD/Euro underground economy in Thailand; I just don’t see the benefit in the fact many expats funds start out in another currency.

TH

[samran]

So you want to promote an "entrepreneur" society ? But is it compatible with the Thai "sabai sabai" attitude ?

As I mentioned, before we try to alter society as a whole, we need more captains and quarterbacks. The sabai sabai crowd should then have more jobs available for them to turn wrenches, push buttons, affix chips, etc. and still have plenty of time for their sabai activities or doing nothing. Those who want to go the hard way (the higher risk, higher reward route) as always are more than welcome to break ranks and hack their way through the jungle.

You very rightly point out the major problem of Thailand, an army of generals and soldiers, but nobody in the middle.

The question of why the uneducated stay uneducated is a very good question. Why some society can promote "good" social value and other can't ? Thailand had only survived because of the regular influx of Chinese and, to a lesser extend, Japanese, which answers the original question, but maybe not in the way the OP expected.

But to answer your post, as a society, as far as education and work ethic are concerned, Thailand is a failure. So maybe it's time for a change ...

Aren't we talking about a three generation societal change though? You are a bit impatient with the goal of changing things, no? Did an interesting survey once, up in a place out of Khon Khaen, a small town which was working with Senator Meechai's organisation.

it was interesting cause I got the chance to interview most of the towns residents, who were mostly old and retired farm labourers. One question was what their (grown children) were up to. In more than 50% of cases, they were working as doctors, nurses, engineers, etc etc. down in BKK. University trained, the new middle class, one generation out of the rice paddies. Wasn't a bad result for such a small town. The other grown children were working in the local Nike factory there, or working in Khon Khaen town itself in the service industry (7-11, Tesco/Lotus) etc. etc.

Their kids had to have the opportuntity from somewhere, and to a person, they weren't working in the rice paddy anymore...These things take time, and I'm more than hopeful.

[Jingthing]

I am curious about the continued use of the term “hard currency” by one poster. Can he explain how he thinks that is an extra benefit some how? To my knowledge the baht is a completely exchangeable currency that is traded on most boards at relatively stable rates against all other currencies and as there is no USD/Euro underground economy in Thailand; I just don’t see the benefit in the fact many expats funds start out in another currency.

You make a good point. The Bank of Thailand does store US dollars as a reserve currency as an economic tool, and perhaps other major currencies as well. However, the Thailand retirement program is open to nationals bringing in any kind of currency and rightly so. The money is usually converted into baht and spent and/or banked. There is the benefit, the spending and the banking of it and the many multiple times that NEW MONEY is circulated around the local economy.