Kingpower Talks Back!

[LaoPo]

This couple are a disgrace...i honestly believed their story when i first read it.

The nerve of some people, even getting their photo taken for the newspaper when they knew they were guilty as sin...

Aahhhh...another Farang Judge who found the 100% truth before a Thai court did.

Thailand isn't short for Farang Judges, that's for sure. This country would fall to pieces if Farang Judges would take care of justice....

LaoPo

[CRUNCHER]

This couple are a disgrace...i honestly believed their story when i first read it.

The nerve of some people, even getting their photo taken for the newspaper when they knew they were guilty as sin...

Aahhhh...another Farang Judge who found the 100% truth before a Thai court did.

Thailand isn't short for Farang Judges, that's for sure. This country would fall to pieces if Farang Judges would take care of justice....

LaoPo

Like you Dave I believed their story when I first read it, although I did feel there might be more to the story as per my first post in this thread. As more came out I changed my mind. If still further information comes to light I could well change it back. I hope I am not unreasonably stubborn.

This couple are not being tried before a criminal court and never will be. They are being tried before the court of public opinion. In a criminal court the standard of proof is beyond reasonable doubt (and long may it remain so); in the court of public opinion it is on the balance of probabilities, a lower standard. Unfair some will say. Perhaps, but that's life; that's reality.

On the other hand a judge in a criminal court has advantages over us. Possibly better CCTV pictures, cross examination of witnesses, the chance to question witnesses himself etc. etc.. He is, therefore, better able to discharge his duty of being satisfied beyond reasonable doubt before convicting or aquitting if he is not.

The consequences of being convicted before a criminal court are much more serious than before the court of public opinion and hence the need for the higher standard of proof. Prison, criminal receord, deportation etc. etc.

In the Ingrams' case there could well be further serious consequences. As he works for the UK Government he could well lose his job or at least have promotion prospects dented. Much the same for his partner. She would never get another job with UN again.Even the risk of such a situaion is an incentive to pay out £8,000.

As to why he should make a fuss when he got home, I can only speculate, but it is not impossible his bosses found out. If he was in a sensitive post he might well have to report incidents overseas. You can bet your socks that the Embassy has to report incidents involving Brits in Thailand to the Foreign Office. Since they are part of the UK Government they might well tell his department. I note it took 2 months for this to become public. Just my speculation I admit, but did he suddenly find himself having to explain to his bosses?

Edited July 14, 2009 by CRUNCHER

[katana]

...As to why he should make a fuss when he got home, I can only speculate, but it is not impossible his bosses found out... Just my speculation I admit, but did he suddenly find himself having to explain to his bosses?

Possibly he was expected back at work and had to explain the delay to them. Although with the surveillance camera footage out now, it casts a new light on it.

[david96]

From the FCO Website, updated 12/7/2009.

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travelling-and-li...ceania/thailand

"We receive regular reports of credit card fraud after shop employees have copied card details. You are advised not to lose sight of your credit card during transactions. You should also be careful to observe demarcation lines between shops and stalls, particularly in market areas and at Suvarnabhumi Airport. Taking items from one shop’s area to another is likely to be treated by shop staff as suspected theft. You may be arrested by the police and asked to pay a substantial fine and/or face imprisonment."

The word "scam" is not used, there is no mention of the words "fraud" or "fraudulent behaviour", there is no mention of "fake" Thai Police and no mention of "fixers'" or "middlemen" or corruption in Thailand.

But this line is interesting further down the page.

"You should report any incidents of crime to the Thai police before leaving the country".

[sanook2me]

Oh so funny another massive post with psuedo intellectual liberal lefties claiming the moral higher ground about scams, set ups corruption and innocent people not having a fair trial boo hoo blah blah

Hands up how many people have been scammed at the airport...

not many ey?

Bottom line is they did it..everyone here really knows that..but its good to argue from different view points.....

[caf]

Oh so funny another massive post with psuedo intellectual liberal lefties claiming the moral higher ground about scams, set ups corruption and innocent people not having a fair trial boo hoo blah blah

Hands up how many people have been scammed at the airport...

not many ey?

Bottom line is they did it..everyone here really knows that..but its good to argue from different view points.....

What a silly post. If you want to know how many people have been scammed read their posts here on TV and elsewhere. Hardly "not many"

Have you compared the statistics of arrests or forum posts for shoplifting in duty free at Singapore and Hong Kong Airports and Bangkok.

Read what travellers have said about their experiences in those places compared to Thailand.

[jackspratt]

It seems that a number of posters on TV are more anxious to defend the reputations of Mr Ingram and Ms Xi, than they are to defend themselves.

The King Power videos and statement were released more than a week ago, and as yet (apparently) not a dickie bird from the "accused".

I wonder why that could be?

[loong]

The King Power videos and statement were released more than a week ago, and as yet (apparently) not a dickie bird from the "accused".

I wonder why that could be?

Do try to keep up...already posted in post #199

Latest quote from Andrew Drummond July 11, 2009 at 2:34 pm

http://www.andrew-drummond.com/2009/06/28/809/

my take is this (and its only my take). The video of the British couple looks real enough and does appear to show a woman placing a wallet in her bag. I have also said this video is not conclusive. And for that I mean in my opinion and in a British court, but not necessarily in a Thai court.(There appears to be no video showing any further connection with this wallet) The jury is still out on this. I have asked Stephen Ingram he says there is something very odd about the video ( though he has not said what) He has not denied it his Xi Lin and himself in the video. Although to be fair he says he cannot say anything about this on the recommendation of a Human Rights Lawyer in the UK. His recounting of events and locations in the airport which they visited are not the same as the version of events presented by KP. They never changed their clothes.

Actually it appears this couple were also charged with lying to police in saying they were not married….They are not married. Their seats were not even together on the aircraft. Food for thought?

[samran]

The King Power videos and statement were released more than a week ago, and as yet (apparently) not a dickie bird from the "accused".

I wonder why that could be?

Do try to keep up...already posted in post #199

Latest quote from Andrew Drummond July 11, 2009 at 2:34 pm

http://www.andrew-drummond.com/2009/06/28/809/

my take is this (and its only my take). The video of the British couple looks real enough and does appear to show a woman placing a wallet in her bag. I have also said this video is not conclusive. And for that I mean in my opinion and in a British court, but not necessarily in a Thai court.(There appears to be no video showing any further connection with this wallet) The jury is still out on this. I have asked Stephen Ingram he says there is something very odd about the video ( though he has not said what) He has not denied it his Xi Lin and himself in the video. Although to be fair he says he cannot say anything about this on the recommendation of a Human Rights Lawyer in the UK. His recounting of events and locations in the airport which they visited are not the same as the version of events presented by KP. They never changed their clothes.

Actually it appears this couple were also charged with lying to police in saying they were not married….They are not married. Their seats were not even together on the aircraft. Food for thought?

Is there a British equivalent of pleading the 5th?

[caf]

The King Power videos and statement were released more than a week ago, and as yet (apparently) not a dickie bird from the "accused".

I wonder why that could be?

Do try to keep up...already posted in post #199

Latest quote from Andrew Drummond July 11, 2009 at 2:34 pm

http://www.andrew-drummond.com/2009/06/28/809/

my take is this (and its only my take). The video of the British couple looks real enough and does appear to show a woman placing a wallet in her bag. I have also said this video is not conclusive. And for that I mean in my opinion and in a British court, but not necessarily in a Thai court.(There appears to be no video showing any further connection with this wallet) The jury is still out on this. I have asked Stephen Ingram he says there is something very odd about the video ( though he has not said what) He has not denied it his Xi Lin and himself in the video. Although to be fair he says he cannot say anything about this on the recommendation of a Human Rights Lawyer in the UK. His recounting of events and locations in the airport which they visited are not the same as the version of events presented by KP. They never changed their clothes.

Actually it appears this couple were also charged with lying to police in saying they were not married….They are not married. Their seats were not even together on the aircraft. Food for thought?

Is there a British equivalent of pleading the 5th?

Yes there is but he is not using it.

He has all the evidence he needs. the video is not a problem as many posters have pointed out.

[IMA_FARANG]

I really don't see why this should deserve it's own topic since the video and the explanation has been showed AND discussed into great detail at the main topic.

It's also not the point; the point is -guilty or not guilty- the extortion of enormous amounts of money from the people involved, apart from the fact that they were kept against their will, missed their plane and the amounts are not proportionate to the products involved, whether KP is/was involved or not.

The cases are absurd and would create ENORMOUS bad publicity for the shop owners and (airport/police) staff in every other major airport in the world.

It's very bad publicity -again- for Thailand.

LaoPo

(statement above = Male Bovine Feces). If she deliberately put the wallet in her purse, and exited without making an attempt to pay. then she was SHOPLIFTING, which is a crime.

It doesn't matter what the "fee" they had to pay to get out...I don't approve of it, but this is Thailand...anyhow, shoplifting is a crime and she could have gone to jail for that crime.

Period. Full stop.

[Benjie]

Yes there is but he is not using it.

He has all the evidence he needs. the video is not a problem as many posters have pointed out.

I find this hilarious, the "I paid 8,000 pounds for a piece of paper saying I'm innocent" therefore they can't be guilty state of mind.

Imagine if someone hurt one of your family, then paid some money to some bent coppers and got a bit of paper saying they were innocent, would you be saying the same thing? Or are you saying that would be impossible here?

The couple have documented step by step how they paid money to get off the charge, ignoring the British embassy advice and not bothering to hire a lawyer, what is it that you don't understand about that process? And what of that when coupled with a video of them stealing makes you assume them innocent.

Its really quite bizarre, Why do you so badly want them to be innocent - really?

Most people have worked out that they got caught stealing and got scammed because of it, they gave someone an inch and they took a foot. Hopefully everyone reading should learn the lesson, don't steal in a country that doesn't have the same laws and protections as back home.

[AnaisNin]

Unless KP photoshop it, the CCTV video it.

Many people complain that the video quality is not good. But to be fare, I have never seen a better CCTV footage. With current technology, the quality is about right.

Some even go to the extend of saying "but still one is always presumed innocent unless convicted in a court of law".

Imagine this. Say I stole something from a shop. Was caught, and have to pay a fine of 10x before the shop let me go. Because I was NOT convicted in a court of law, does that make me innocent?

[balo]

GUILTY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[caf]

Yes there is but he is not using it.

He has all the evidence he needs. the video is not a problem as many posters have pointed out.

I find this hilarious, the "I paid 8,000 pounds for a piece of paper saying I'm innocent" therefore they can't be guilty state of mind.

He did not say " I paid 8,000 pounds for a piece of paper saying I'm innocent" Benjie. Not for the first time ion this thread do you misquote

Imagine if someone hurt one of your family, then paid some money to some bent coppers and got a bit of paper saying they were innocent, would you be saying the same thing? Or are you saying that would be impossible here?

If someone hurt my family ( ie in a criminal act) , I would not be supporting bent coppers. But that is not the parallel. There is no evidence for shoplifting in this case, so no criminal act proposed. So your argument is puerile. And I did not say it would be impossible here Benjie. Again you put words in people's mouths on this thread to suit your twisted agenda.

I notice - as other posters are noticing - that when something irrefutable is pointed out to you you disappear for a while then come back but carefully ignoring the point made to you.

The Ingrams have made a statement about the video. They have explained their position in the current legal process. I have given sources.

They may or may not be guilty. But I do not accept the way you filter the "evidence" selectively. You said no-one ese pointed this out but when I quoted the post numbers - post 226 - you presumably went trolling somewhere else.

The couple have documented step by step how they paid money to get off the charge, ignoring the British embassy advice and not bothering to hire a lawyer, what is it that you don't understand about that process? And what of that when coupled with a video of them stealing makes you assume them innocent.

I accept they did not accept the advice on getting a thai lawyer. they would have had to stay in thailand, pay legal fees. after the trial the bond is returned but you have to travel back to thailand or stay a few weeks to get it. look at the drummond site for stephen burrows

Its really quite bizarre, Why do you so badly want them to be innocent - really?

I don't. I want to see fairness not one-sided arguments. as at least two other posters have said - glad you're not on a jury.

Most people have worked out that they got caught stealing and got scammed because of it, they gave someone an inch and they took a foot. Hopefully everyone reading should learn the lesson, don't steal in a country that doesn't have the same laws and protections as back home.

Edited July 17, 2009 by caf

[dave111223]

This couple are a disgrace...i honestly believed their story when i first read it.

The nerve of some people, even getting their photo taken for the newspaper when they knew they were guilty as sin...

Aahhhh...another Farang Judge who found the 100% truth before a Thai court did.

Thailand isn't short for Farang Judges, that's for sure. This country would fall to pieces if Farang Judges would take care of justice....

LaoPo

How would a Thai court have found the truth; when the accused decided to pay bribes in order to circumvent the legal system.

I guess because they paid the bribe and never went to court this means they are presumed innocent forever...?

Edited July 17, 2009 by dave111223

[pampal]

At the least they are guilty of paying bribes(they claim extortion),but they haven't proven extortion or anything else for that matter.

Isn't paying a bribe also a crime?

[spidermike007]

King Power International plans to submit a request to the British Embassy asking what action it plans to take regarding a disgruntled UK couple.

Deputy chairman Chulchit Bunyaketu said the group last Wednesday asked the embassy to explain the facts to the British press following a theft in Suvarnabhumi Airport's duty-free area, which is under King Power's management.

A British couple was charged with stealing a wallet. They have since complained to the UK media they had to pay Bt200,000 extra on top of Bt200,000 bail to have the charges dropped and urged British tourists not to patronise King Power duty-free shops.

Chulchit told a press conference yesterday that the case had caused damage to both King Power and Thai investigators.

He insisted King Power's closed-circuit TV clearly showed the couple at the scene and said the footage could be viewed on King Power's website. Regarding their complaints about being cheated out of extra money, he said this happened the world over whenever people sought help from the wrong channels. False reports will tarnish Thailand's image.

This quote really shows what a goon, buffoon, and truly ignorant man the King Power Chairman, Chulchit Bunyaketu is. The issue is not about whether or not there is stealing taking place. This happens with all retailers. The issue is whether or not there is also a scam taking place, and if the Thai "so called Royal" police are taking advantage of tourists for their own profit. Does he address this? Of course not? Does he debate this? Of course not. Does he profit from this? Or course. Could this be happening without his knowledge and blessing? Probably not. The disingenuous manner in which he addresses the complaints shows how indifferent he is to the problem. In any other civilized country in the world, he would have already been fired without compensation, and the police chief in charge of the airport would be in jail. But, not in Thailand. The Thai authorities how little interest in stopping corruption. While neighboring Malaysia has a full scale corruption commission, and is making daily arrests, Thailand continues to ignore the problem, and hopes it will just do away. The only think that will go away from all of this, is the tourism industry.

[spidermike007]

What a silly response. Because King Power releases a video showing a real theft, they are now off the hook for all of the daily

extortion that takes place. Do you honestly believe the Thai police extort only real thieves? Are we going to let King Power off

the hook this easily? You played right into the King Power CEO's hands. He was looking for gullible farengs to defend him. And

to think he did not even have to hire you to help him! Get a grip. Be a man. Put blame, where blame belongs. This was never

an issue of whether or not theft was taking place. Of course people are stealing, as with any retailer. The real story is whether

or not people are being set up, and whether or not King Power is in on the scam.

[spidermike007]

In regard to the recent allegation of scams on the part of the Thai police, and King Power, I recently wrote this letter to King Power:

King Power International Group Co., Ltd.

8/2, Rangnam Road

Thanon-Phayathai, Ratchathewi

10400, Bangkok, Thailand

July 22, 2009

I have been reading about what has been happening in the Suvarnabhumi Airport lately. While I do not necessarily believe all of the allegations, I do think they deserve to be looked at. We all know how corrupt the police in Thailand are, so when someone makes an allegation like this, one has to take notice. These stories are very alarming. I have shopped in your stores in the past, but am very reluctant to even set foot in one now, due to the police stories. I think it is the responsibility of King Power to investigate these charges, and if possible get to the bottom of them, and then take action. While the police in this nation are completely out of control, and nobody including the PM Abhisit seems to be able to rid the police of corruption, you seem to be in a position to at least reign them in, in this particular circumstance. If not, I am afraid your business is going to dwindle to nearly nothing. People will avoid your store at all costs. You must take this seriously. Your chairman has done little to help your PR. Claiming that this is all about foreign thieves will do nothing to help his operation. The Thai people are very good at deflecting blame, and very poor at accepting responsibility. We all know the scam extends well beyond the real thieves, and that innocent people are being preyed upon by heinous Thai policemen. One can only hope that King Power is not involved in any way, and is simply an innocent victim. But, you must take responsibility for what is happening, or your days as a successful retailer may be behind you.

Sincerely yours,

I think if they heard from enough disgruntled shoppers, they may find it within themselves to take some action. Is that possible? Is it likely?

[verydumbubba]

Oh Puleeez!

Bubba

[Shah Jahan]

I think if they heard from enough disgruntled shoppers, they may find it within themselves to take some action. Is that possible? Is it likely?

yeah right after the Royal Thai Police arrest themselves for incompetence ....

Its a company owned and run by Thai people, not falang. they dont care what the customer thinks. they think they can just fix everything though brute force and more lies.

[sassienie]

The scenario here is simple. Commit a crime in Thailand and you’re owned.

As for the case of criminals being held to ransom over their alleged crimes, so called legal scammers are operating in all countries, only in the West we call them lawyers.

In a way Thailand’s corrupt system can actually be of benefit to these criminals. Some do get the opportunity to buy themselves out of the problem, rather than having to endure the whole legal process as in the West.

If you don’t wish to do pay the fine or do the time, than don’t commit the crime.

Edited July 22, 2009 by sassienie

[TheWalkingMan]

...

Deputy chairman Chulchit Bunyaketu said the group last Wednesday asked the embassy to explain the facts to the British press following a theft in Suvarnabhumi Airport's duty-free area, which is under King Power's management.

...

Why would the embassy perform message boy services for Chuchit. Shouldn't he or his staff be on the phone trying to organize some type of interview with the British press?

TheWalkingMan

[Tod Daniels]

The CCTV video quality seems to be what one would expect in a small retail store. Neither state of the art, nor antiquated, and in viewing it; it does appear to be quite damning evidence.

In one video I saw a woman pick up a small item (the wallet) from one side of the display rack, carry to the other side of the rack (where the clerk could not see), put it down, act as if she were walking away, then noticeably pause, reach down, pick it BACK up, put it in her bag and walk off screen. I am sorry but to me, it's shoplifting, plain and simple.

As for the rest of the story which said that when security approached the man he got up, went to the restroom and discarded the wallet; who gives a "flying <deleted>". The CCTV is all the evidence needed to show, she went out of her way to be deceptive, and then left with the item without paying. It is rarely clearer cut than that.

Of course let the teeth gnashers, hand wringers and whiners come out of the woodwork to beat the drum about the injustice of it all, and plight of the "poor persecuted tourists". Oh wait, hold the presses, weren't they the ones who stole something to begin with and brought this whole mess upon themselves?

That they disregarded the advice of their own embassy, took the advice of a Sri-Lankan con-man (wait aren't we in Thailand, not Sri Lanka?) and/or paid an exorbitant amount to completely circumvent and go outside of the thai justice system to resolve their issue, is sadly neither here nor there.

Is there corruption in the glorious "Land 'O Thais"? Of course there is, just like anywhere else, perhaps here the corruption is a little more "in your face", but IF you are innocent, why pay any money to get out of your day in court to exonerate yourself?

I say GUILTY! !! (and no you would NOT want me on your jury; I am a kill’em all let God sort’em out kind of guy).

As to whether King Power is running scams on tourists; I have NEVER shopped with them so have no first hand knowledge of their practices. However, in perusing the available resources on the internet, both good and bad, I for one would be VERY hesitant in entering their shops.

[citizen33]

I say GUILTY! !! (and no you would NOT want me on your jury; I am a kill’em all let God sort’em out kind of guy).

As to whether King Power is running scams on tourists; I have NEVER shopped with them so have no first hand knowledge of their practices. However, in perusing the available resources on the internet, both good and bad, I for one would be VERY hesitant in entering their shops.

I think the precautionary principle is going to work against King Power. If we make a wrong call regarding the guilt or inncocence of the couple, our mistake is not going to have personal consequences for us. But if we confidently assume that King Power are blameless, shop happily at the airport and come to grief for carrying an item across an invisible line on the floor, we are going to bitterly regret giving KP the benefit of the doubt. Better to give their shops a wide berth for the time being.

[jupiler]

And now its justing waiting for the next tourist who get scamt and (hopefully) go public with it.

Even this news gooing arround the world, i never believe that those guys( police!!) gonna end theyr lucrative business!

[Mario2008]

The BKK post had an interesting article: http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...t-airport-scams

[Bagwan]

Why would the embassy perform message boy services for Chuchit. Shouldn't he or his staff be on the phone trying to organize some type of interview with the British press?

TheWalkingMan

Might I suggest that a BBC TV interview conducted by, say Jeremy Paxman, would be a good idea?

[Dakhar]

This couple are a disgrace...i honestly believed their story when i first read it.

The nerve of some people, even getting their photo taken for the newspaper when they knew they were guilty as sin...

Aahhhh...another Farang Judge who found the 100% truth before a Thai court did.

Thailand isn't short for Farang Judges, that's for sure. This country would fall to pieces if Farang Judges would take care of justice....

LaoPo

How would a Thai court have found the truth; when the accused decided to pay bribes in order to circumvent the legal system.

I guess because they paid the bribe and never went to court this means they are presumed innocent forever...?

Who offered the bribes, who accepted the bribes?