Sexual Harassment

[toybits]

He has seniority over me in terms of length of stay at the office, but I think he does not outrank me in terms of responsibility.

I do make my presence felt when he is around so the touching and verbal banter is toned down.

If he's the same level, or junior to you, in the organisation simply ask him not to distract your Staff when they are working because it is interfering in their performance, if he continues, take it up with your Senior management using the same argument.

No need to mention the Sexual Harassment issue - that would only embarrass him ............... and probably cause problems with / for your Staff.

Patrick

[toybits]

I don't mess around with my girls.

Probably especially bad if he is harassing the Girls you are after

[Ulysses G.]

op you sound like a coward.

Mind your own biswacks!

[Birdman]

He has seniority over me in terms of length of stay at the office, but I think he does not outrank me in terms of responsibility.

I do make my presence felt when he is around so the touching and verbal banter is toned down.

That would be the best way.

Because he is Thai and at the same level, you certainly cannot tell him. He will hate you afterwards.

The idea with the anonymous letter left on his table is tricky. Because he could easily assume, that you are the source.

However if his sexual harassment gets out of hand, you could let someone outside the office write a polite letter in Thai, mentioning, that if nothing changes, copies of the next letter will go to his superior. But, as I said before, chances are still high, that he will suspect you...

[verydumbubba]

As you will be blamed anyways, go to his boss or wife - especially considering his track record.

Bubba

[IanForbes]

Now we know a few more facts in the story I believe you should approach HIS superior and ask that person what to do about the distraction this man has on your staff when he comes to visit. I would certainly be around him every time he came to my office and stand right beside him. At least he would not feel comfortable with you right there. He would eventually take the hint. He might have some "pull" with the superior officers in the company, but if you just make sure you are around every time he's with one of your female staff then nothing much is going to happen. There's no need to even say anything if you are right beside him.

[redscouse]

next time he comes in the office blow in his ear and lightly caress his testicles, then repeat this every time he comes into the office to pester the girls, he should soon get the message. However being Thai he probably will not realise what is happening or even more bizarrely he may enjoy it and visit the office more often to have his nut sack massaged by the friendly farang.

personally I would call all the girls to gather round my desk every time he appears for his molestation break therefore taking them away from him, then talk to them about harassment or targets etc so he can overhear, if it's not possible to gather them all at the same time, then call over the poor unfortunate who is the object of his desire at that moment to get her away from his greasy palms. . If he is not coming down on office business then he has no need for the girls to remain in their seats to hear what he has to say.

[NanLaew]

Yes, a foreigner telling a Thai how to behave... in Thailand.

Next?

[dondraper]

I tell Thais how to behave every day.

[Birdman]

I tell Thais how to behave every day.

so?

[dondraper]

so?

[Birdman]

...saying that means: ...under what conditions and what do you want to say by that?

[TBWG]

Perhaps introduce him to Thaivisa and this particular thread!

TBWG

[ttthailand]

Ask your supervisor for a class for your staff regarding sexual Harassment or post on a board something regarding the steps to take and what is considered as sexual harassment or provide handouts to everyone in and around your office area regarding sexual harassment. In any case make sure he reads and knows that every one now knows that it is not acceptable. This never selects him directly or puts you in the spot of naming him as a problem. If he still continues you can say to him that he is taking a risk as everyone now knows that this is not acceptable.

[ttthailand]

What would you do in your own country ? Perhaps kick his ass or turn him in. Just think how backward Thailand is.... never the less you have to be careful as it will surely turn on you if you are not.

[dondraper]

...saying that means: ...under what conditions and what do you want to say by that?

so... the notion that Thais are incompetent and can't be told what to do is ridiculous, hence my reply to the person who implied that the notion of a Farang instructing a Thai was comical.

[jackr]

op you sound like a coward. they are letting you know so you can do something about it. so do something about it. anonymous notes are for women. be a man. have some balls. etc etc.

I like this approach, if the target were a farang.

next time he comes in the office blow in his ear and lightly caress his testicles, then repeat this every time he comes into the office to pester the girls, he should soon get the message. However being Thai he probably will not realise what is happening or even more bizarrely he may enjoy it and visit the office more often to have his nut sack massaged by the friendly farang.

--

I think you need to tread carefully here, op. Setting him up to make him look incompetent in his job and hopefully have him removed (if you really care that much) would probably be a better option than having him lose face by you telling him that he shouldn't be doing what he is doing in a female-subservient society.

All the breast

[Birdman]

...saying that means: ...under what conditions and what do you want to say by that?

so... the notion that Thais are incompetent and can't be told what to do is ridiculous, hence my reply to the person who implied that the notion of a Farang instructing a Thai was comical.

...my man

[scorecard]

The suggestion earlier that there are no sexual harrassment laws in Thailand is not correct.

Several years back our regional management appointed a Thai man to a senior local position.

The new employee was very well educated, was well known in high-society and had very strong connections to politicians. I'll call him Dr. Z.

Problems started within a few days of Dr. Z. starting work. Typical examples:

1. He would call from outside of the office and ask the female receptionist and other female staff:

- "What colour panties are you wearing today" and a lot more.

2. He regularly touched the maid on her breast area.

3. The company went on an overnight end of year outing and he knocked on the doors of several female employees about midnight, when they opened the door he said "I'm sure you must be lonely, never mind, I'll sleep with you." He did this to several staff and the next morning they all complained to the actual GM.

4. The crunch came when he offered money to the receptionist which she recorded on a tape recorder.

Very quickly after the 4th item above the company received a letter from a high profile lawyer demanding that: the company take action to stop his behavior, the company and Dr. Z, provide a public apology, and the company provide compensation for her distress and Dr. Z. provide compensation as a punishment and also for her distress.

The lawyer for the receptionist made it very clear they were serious and demanded a quick response. The company quickly got their own legal counsel involved, he indicated that, if proven, both the company and Dr Z, had broken several laws. The matter was investigated thoroughly and quickly.

Dr. Z was dismissed and it cost him over one million baht to settle the matter. It also cost the company dearly. Further checking revealed that he had done similar things in several other places where he was previously employed and had been dismissed several times before for the same reason.

[scorecard]

I agree with the anonymous letter approach. He won't know who it is from and it will scare him off hopefully.

The anonymous letter appraoch is NOT a good idea:

- If it's investigated the police or a lawyer will very likely discover who the writer is (not difficult).

- This would be a very bad precedent and could well open up regular anonymous letters / hate mail etc.,

Please don't do this.

[Birdman]

...what??

There certainly will be no police and/or lawyers involved, if someone leaves a note, that touching female staff in this office is not appreciated !!!

[a2396]

One of our senior office mates (middle-aged) comes down to my floor and "fraternizes" with my staff (who are mostly women). These informal visits often involves verbal banter touching (putting his arm on the girl's shoulders). My staff seem to tolerate it - but they have let me know what they felt about this person. Thing is they feel powerless to do anything about it.

Would appreciate you comments here.

People working at beer bars and similar establishments need not comment (heh heh).

What you describe is not exactly sexual harassmen, depends on the nature of his comments and the type of touching. I think it is not uncommon for the ladies (in this part of the world) to be expected to sleep with the boss to "get ahead".

[mca]

The suggestion earlier that there are no sexual harrassment laws in Thailand is not correct.

Several years back our regional management appointed a Thai man to a senior local position.

The new employee was very well educated, was well known in high-society and had very strong connections to politicians. I'll call him Dr. Z.

Problems started within a few days of Dr. Z. starting work. Typical examples:

1. He would call from outside of the office and ask the female receptionist and other female staff:

- "What colour panties are you wearing today" and a lot more.

2. He regularly touched the maid on her breast area.

3. The company went on an overnight end of year outing and he knocked on the doors of several female employees about midnight, when they opened the door he said "I'm sure you must be lonely, never mind, I'll sleep with you." He did this to several staff and the next morning they all complained to the actual GM.

4. The crunch came when he offered money to the receptionist which she recorded on a tape recorder.

Very quickly after the 4th item above the company received a letter from a high profile lawyer demanding that: the company take action to stop his behavior, the company and Dr. Z, provide a public apology, and the company provide compensation for her distress and Dr. Z. provide compensation as a punishment and also for her distress.

The lawyer for the receptionist made it very clear they were serious and demanded a quick response. The company quickly got their own legal counsel involved, he indicated that, if proven, both the company and Dr Z, had broken several laws. The matter was investigated thoroughly and quickly.

Dr. Z was dismissed and it cost him over one million baht to settle the matter. It also cost the company dearly. Further checking revealed that he had done similar things in several other places where he was previously employed and had been dismissed several times before for the same reason.

In my humble opinion the "softly softly" is not the way forward. Many times subtle hints don't work. I think everything should be formal and above board.

My sister in law is HR for a Thai owned company and a number of the female workers came to her with similar tales to the above poster's experience. The guy involved was a senior manager in the company. Real Puu Yai attitude. She initially tried the friendly word in the ear approach and was told "It's only a bit of fun." Sometimes people need to be hit with a sledgehammer to see the point and the harassment didn't stop. It was quite distressing to the women so my sister in law made them list the times, dates and situations in which the harassment occurred. She then approached the GM in a formal meeting wit the list for action to be taken and made the comment that if nothing was done the women were considering legal action against the company for not protecting them. The guy got a formal written warning and the touchy feely stuff stopped right away.

I know that in a number of companies this sort of stuff might well be swept under the carpet but sometimes the formal way can work wonders especially if the word "legal action" is bandied about.

[IanForbes]

One of our senior office mates (middle-aged) comes down to my floor and "fraternizes" with my staff (who are mostly women). These informal visits often involves verbal banter touching (putting his arm on the girl's shoulders). My staff seem to tolerate it - but they have let me know what they felt about this person. Thing is they feel powerless to do anything about it.

Would appreciate you comments here.

People working at beer bars and similar establishments need not comment (heh heh).

What you describe is not exactly sexual harassmen, depends on the nature of his comments and the type of touching. I think it is not uncommon for the ladies (in this part of the world) to be expected to sleep with the boss to "get ahead".

I'm sorry, but it IS harassment. The women already mentioned that they don't like it from this person. It is understandable that office love affairs take place and very often at the instigation of the woman. But, when women make it quite clear to their superior (which in this case is the OP) that they don't want to be fraternized with by this man then something has to be done.

The discussion is WHAT has to be done that solves the problem but doesn't get the OP in a bad position from his superiors.

Unfortunately, there are double standards. I know in an office I worked in with lots of attractive women that one handsome guy could get away with all sorts of playful interaction with the ladies and they all loved it. But, when the sleezbag office manager, who actually hired the women in the first place, tried anything similar the gals all complained. They didn't want the guy around at all... because he actually was a pervert. He was later fired for sexual harassment in another office.

[NanLaew]

...saying that means: ...under what conditions and what do you want to say by that?

so... the notion that Thais are incompetent and can't be told what to do is ridiculous, hence my reply to the person who implied that the notion of a Farang instructing a Thai was comical.

...my man

I never said that the image of an individual foreigner confronting an individual Thai co-worker about what regrettably IS regarded as mostly harmless in the Thai work place was ridiculous. However, I do consider that it would be at the very least ill advised and for the most part ineffective. This is Asia and not Boston or Hammersmith after all. That's NOT a defence for rude behavior, just an advisory that there's other things to consider here. Thailand has a very long way to go before it's as egalitarian as some appear to think it is already.

In my humble opinion the "softly softly" is not the way forward. Many times subtle hints don't work. I think everything should be formal and above board.

My sister in law is HR for a Thai owned company and a number of the female workers came to her with similar tales to the above poster's experience. The guy involved was a senior manager in the company. Real Puu Yai attitude. She initially tried the friendly word in the ear approach and was told "It's only a bit of fun." Sometimes people need to be hit with a sledgehammer to see the point and the harassment didn't stop. It was quite distressing to the women so my sister in law made them list the times, dates and situations in which the harassment occurred. She then approached the GM in a formal meeting wit the list for action to be taken and made the comment that if nothing was done the women were considering legal action against the company for not protecting them. The guy got a formal written warning and the touchy feely stuff stopped right away.

I know that in a number of companies this sort of stuff might well be swept under the carpet but sometimes the formal way can work wonders especially if the word "legal action" is bandied about.

Now mca has shown the correct way to handle this matter but significantly it took a female lead in HR for positive action to be taken. A male dominated HR department, certainly a Thai male managed one would probably sit on the fence on this. One-on-one confrontations may work in the west but I doubt their effectiveness even there. Thailand does have legislation in place, albeit quite new and little used but THAT is the tool that should be used to raise a national awareness that at least in the workplace, "this aint Kansas anymore" and keep your darn hands to yourself!

[mca]

but significantly it took a female lead in HR for positive action to be taken.

Isn't that sadly the situation. I worked in Bangkok for the Thai end of a huge multinational corporation for the best part of a decade before moving to Isaan and with my experiences if I were ever in the position to run a large local company I can assure you all my top management and executives would be Thai women.

[NanLaew]

^ Off topic, but I did a couple for contracts with Saudi Aramco and the overbearing testosterone-fueled atmosphere was hard to accommodate. Everyone, locals and expatriates were always (sometimes unconsciously) trying to 'out-balls' the other guy. Meetings were argumentative affairs and everything seemed to be more of a chore than it needed to be. The last tour I did there, I was working with executive-level management where they were allowed female secretaries and personal assistants and the working atmosphere was so much easier, both in working and on the eyes. These ladies weren't involved with the decision-making but they certainly had an influence on the ball-bearing types that did.

Smelled better too!

Closer to home and the Asian patriarchy, I had a team of surveyors in China, half blokes and half girls. They were all equally qualified and experienced but the girls were mostly sidelined to the office doing the calculations and clerical stuff while the 'men' did the field work. Trying to get the blokes out of the office and off to work was a pain and they stood around, sunglasses dangling coolly from one ear, trying to impress the girlies. The field survey teams slow work was causing project problems so we recommended that they fire all the blokes and give us a 100% lady team. This being China was NOT a consideration so the Chinese management fired all the girls instead! Work did improve as the useless lads didn't have any women in the office to try and impress but I know the work would have been even more efficient if they had sacked all the guys instead.

[toybits]

It is easy to tell this guy to lay off the girls but it is much more than just that. I have to play politics in the office and make sure that my girls are not harassed. I could tell this person directly and probably get away with it - because I am a foreigner who "does not know" local culture.

But I could kiss away my good working relationship with this person and that would be that.

What I am lamenting is that what happens at my office is probably not an isolated case. I believe it also happens elsewhere and would really like to know how others have dealt with it. I also lament the way women seem to tolerate it.

[NanLaew]

It is easy to tell this guy to lay off the girls but it is much more than just that. I have to play politics in the office and make sure that my girls are not harassed. I could tell this person directly and probably get away with it - because I am a foreigner who "does not know" local culture.

But I could kiss away my good working relationship with this person and that would be that.

What I am lamenting is that what happens at my office is probably not an isolated case. I believe it also happens elsewhere and would really like to know how others have dealt with it. I also lament the way women seem to tolerate it.

Good thread you have started here BTW.

OK, I can see that you are a decent sort with good intentions but why do you feel it's up to you? And what's this possessive collective "my girls" all about, eh? You sound more like a mother hen or an office manager who himself may be seeking less overt but still flirtatious interactions with 'your girls'. Or more like the regular bloke at the local pub who is popular with the girls but resents the flash, new bloke who comes in and tries to get their attention.

Your second point that you could "probably get away with it" because you aren't Thai also carries the equally strong chance of your verbal warning being totally discounted precisely because you are seen as the ignorant foreigner who doesn't know any better IMHO.

So, why does he come to your department in the first place? If he is legitimately dropping off or picking up something, maybe you should preempt his visits by delivering whatever it is to his office first. If he is just coming by so he can cop a feel and act the lad, maybe you should bring it up with superiors. Like in my comment about the oxygen waster Chinese male surveyors I had to deal with, it was a legitimate complaint about their innefficiency that stopped their "farting in church" as my granny would say.

And some of the girls were little hotties too I may add.

It sounds like maybe your company is a small entity without a dedicated HR body? If you are just an employee, like this other bloke, playing office politics masquerading as political correctness may well backfire.

[CharlieB]

It is easy to tell this guy to lay off the girls but it is much more than just that. I have to play politics in the office and make sure that my girls are not harassed. I could tell this person directly and probably get away with it - because I am a foreigner who "does not know" local culture.

But I could kiss away my good working relationship with this person and that would be that.

What I am lamenting is that what happens at my office is probably not an isolated case. I believe it also happens elsewhere and would really like to know how others have dealt with it. I also lament the way women seem to tolerate it.

It's not up to you to enforce company policy or employment laws on other managers. You should approach the HR manager/director of the company and inform them of what is going on and that you have had complaints from people that report to you about this mans behaviour. It is up to the company HR representatives to reprimand this man for what he is doing, not you. This is how it would be done in any western company.