Mistaken Identity Causes Immigration Problems (2nd Update)

[buzzer]

Hi,

Well, it's an on-going tale of woe for my friend, who Thai immigration authorities refuse to grant renewal of his non-immigrant o status, even though he's lived in Thailand many years, and has two young children with his Thai wife. I thought I'd give the latest update out because I know several of you have been following this since March.

If you want to read the background for this whole mess the earliest thread is here: March 2009

The second link is here: April Update

As of the April update everything appeared to be cleared up. Coming back to Bangkok Airport he was processed by a immigration officer who, apparently understood all the b.s. that they rationed out, even suspecting a couple known culprits within immigration that just like to make peoples' lives more difficult. Also, she saw that the name was clearly different than the name of the man blacklisted. So, my friend, arrived at the airport with 2 bags - one containing only things for his daughter, so she could stay here with the mother (the daughter is a 4 year old Thai citizen they could not refuse entry) and a second bag containing only his belongings - as he was 100% convinced he was going to be denied entry).

But Lo and Behold! The immigration officer saw through all the garbage that had been loaded on this unfortunate man, and let him enter.

Well, now, several months later they are back to square one. They refuse to believe that he and the blacklisted man are not one-and-the-same, and he is being forced to leave the country again. The latest immigration officials are saying things like, "You must have bribed your way in", in essence accusing their own immigration officers of breaking the law.

Now, immigration is splitting up his family for the 3rd time this year. At least he's not taking his daughter with him this time - the last trip almost killed her. But his wife is going to have to take care of 2 very young girls without the help of their father, and their business will probably have to be shut down because it requires him to do most of the work.

They delayed and delayed the final verdict on whether he was going to be granted a 'long-term' passport until just a couple days ago, now he has no time to appeal anything.

The one guy who remains friendly with my friend at immigration suggested he go back to his home country, and change his name. This is the best solution they can come up with. I'm worried about this approach, because they could say - "Hey, we know you, you're the blacklisted guy - we're not going to let you in because you changed your name - this proves you're guilty". Or something like that.

None of the lawyers we contacted wanted the job. 2 of them said yes, and one took a down-payment, but were all talk, and no action. A third lawyer wanted to consider matters, and opted out after a few days. At least he didn't steal my friend's money.

So, my friend, his wife, and I are completely at a loss to how to continue. I know he's supposed to leave Monday, and I don't believe any more extensions are available to him on his present visa. Even if he did stay, whatever he does here seem like beating a dead horse.

Thanks - Buzzer

[Mario2008]

There are not much options in this case.

he can petition the chief of the immigration police or the minister

he can ask his embassy to intervene

he or his wife can complain to the Thai ombudsman

As you I don't think that changing his name will be the solution.

[beejoir]

Its easy, chage your name by deed poll to something SLIGHTLY but still enough away from the black listed name, this takes a matter of about a week if you do it in an embassy here or abroad, and less time in the UK, then apply for your new passport.

That'll be enough.

Quick and easy.

[sunholidaysun1]

Some one could have stolen his Identity ?

[FarangRed]

Hi,

Well, it's an on-going tale of woe for my friend, who Thai immigration authorities refuse to grant renewal of his non-immigrant o status, even though he's lived in Thailand many years, and has two young children with his Thai wife. I thought I'd give the latest update out because I know several of you have been following this since March.

If you want to read the background for this whole mess the earliest thread is here: March 2009

The second link is here: April Update

As of the April update everything appeared to be cleared up. Coming back to Bangkok Airport he was processed by a immigration officer who, apparently understood all the b.s. that they rationed out, even suspecting a couple known culprits within immigration that just like to make peoples' lives more difficult. Also, she saw that the name was clearly different than the name of the man blacklisted. So, my friend, arrived at the airport with 2 bags - one containing only things for his daughter, so she could stay here with the mother (the daughter is a 4 year old Thai citizen they could not refuse entry) and a second bag containing only his belongings - as he was 100% convinced he was going to be denied entry).

But Lo and Behold! The immigration officer saw through all the garbage that had been loaded on this unfortunate man, and let him enter.

Well, now, several months later they are back to square one. They refuse to believe that he and the blacklisted man are not one-and-the-same, and he is being forced to leave the country again. The latest immigration officials are saying things like, "You must have bribed your way in", in essence accusing their own immigration officers of breaking the law.

Now, immigration is splitting up his family for the 3rd time this year. At least he's not taking his daughter with him this time - the last trip almost killed her. But his wife is going to have to take care of 2 very young girls without the help of their father, and their business will probably have to be shut down because it requires him to do most of the work.

They delayed and delayed the final verdict on whether he was going to be granted a 'long-term' passport until just a couple days ago, now he has no time to appeal anything.

The one guy who remains friendly with my friend at immigration suggested he go back to his home country, and change his name. This is the best solution they can come up with. I'm worried about this approach, because they could say - "Hey, we know you, you're the blacklisted guy - we're not going to let you in because you changed your name - this proves you're guilty". Or something like that.

None of the lawyers we contacted wanted the job. 2 of them said yes, and one took a down-payment, but were all talk, and no action. A third lawyer wanted to consider matters, and opted out after a few days. At least he didn't steal my friend's money.

So, my friend, his wife, and I are completely at a loss to how to continue. I know he's supposed to leave Monday, and I don't believe any more extensions are available to him on his present visa. Even if he did stay, whatever he does here seem like beating a dead horse.

Thanks - Buzzer

I have followed your story so far, if you send PM I think I can help

[spongeman]

The bit of the story where the immigration officer at the Airport let in a blacklisted person is hard to believe. Then why have such a list ? Its like somebody not having the correct visa but is told at the airport " Ah, its ok, you have come a long way, pop in".

Also i believe that if a proper lawyer in Thailand actually had been hired, this identity could be proved quite easily ?

[buzzer]

There are not much options in this case.

he can petition the chief of the immigration police or the minister

I just think there is so much communication within the department, and such a hierarchy that it's hard to get anything done even if the janitor has something against him.

he can ask his embassy to intervene

I talked with him about this - they're, apparently not helpful at all.

he or his wife can complain to the Thai ombudsman

I don't know anything about this. I'll try to figure out what the Thai word for ombudsman is and talk with him.

As you I don't think that changing his name will be the solution.

It just seems like a stupid solution, and one that will end in future disappointment.

As in previous posts, I don't want to reveal my friend's name, but his name and the blacklisted persons names are only vaguely similar. This is not a like a case of 2 people named John Weston Smith (same everything). If his name was European it would kind of be the difference between Kinder Klein and Karinder von Klein. His first name is different from the blacklisted man's 1. He has an extra syllable in his first name. 2. He has a middle name. He has a very, very common last name, one of the most common last names in his country, like Wing in China. I did a Google search on his exact name (using quotes). I got 4 hits. I did a Google search on the other man's exact name, and came up with over 2,000. But this is Thailand!

Part of the problem is that the burden of proof is on my friend proving that he is not this other man. He must also get all the information on the other man - and this information does not exist. The Thai's have no information on this other man other than the name, and the fact he was blacklisted about 10 years ago. Why was he blacklisted? They don't know, or won't provide the information. But they expect him to get it, and there must be more than 1,000 men with that exact name.

Meanwhile my friend has made 2 trips to his home country, and came back with family records, birth certificates. Full documentation for everything that might have the slightest bearing on the case. In each, his name is nowhere close to the blacklisted man. The blacklisted man has a common enough name that there could possibly be 1,000 men with that same name in his home country. My friend's first name pretty common, but it is a different name - like Jack and Jake. His middle name makes it much less common.

beejour said, " Its easy, chage your name by deed poll to something SLIGHTLY but still enough away from the black listed name, this takes a matter of about a week if you do it in an embassy here or abroad, and less time in the UK, then apply for your new passport.

That'll be enough.

Quick and easy."

He was thinking about changing it by one letter. It will take him a month to 6 weeks including travel back to his home country, and getting a new passport. He wasn't given enough warning to have the time to do it here, and it's more difficult there than in Thailand. So, that's not exactly 'Quick and easy', thanks for the reply though.

sunholidaysun1 asked, "Some one could have stolen his Identity ?"

His name is being confused with the name of a person who has been blacklisted by the Thai govt. If someone would steal a poor person's identity to masquerade as them to gain entrance to Thailand? Sorry - don't have any answers other than, No, no one has stolen his identity.

The names are confused by Thai's. The names are written using the English alphabet. If you saw them you would say. These are the names of two different people. Apparently the Thai immigration authorities don't see things the same way.

[buzzer]

The bit of the story where the immigration officer at the Airport let in a blacklisted person is hard to believe. Then why have such a list ? Its like somebody not having the correct visa but is told at the airport " Ah, its ok, you have come a long way, pop in".

Apparently there is a blacklisted person with one name, and a flag and file on my friend's name as being suspected of being blacklisted because the Thai's think the name is too similar. The officer at the airport grilled him for about an hour, he produced a mountain of documents, she saw the problem, and even tried to fix it herself, but apparently she couldn't make a change in the computer.

Also i believe that if a proper lawyer in Thailand actually had been hired, this identity could be proved quite easily ?

Well, they were all very proper, and very Thai. The first one said he was working on it, with assurances every day, but wasn't. This ate up valuable time until they got to the second proper lawyer, who took their 5,000 baht, gave assurances, but just wasted more of his precious time. In the end he was a proper thief too.

The third told them, up front, that he would decide whether to take the case or not. after a few days of not answering his phone. He finally answered and said he didn't want to take the case. Seems like business as usual in Thailand to me.

[samran]

...Well, they were all very proper, and very Thai. The first one said he was working on it, with assurances every day, but wasn't. This ate up valuable time until they got to the second proper lawyer, who took their 5,000 baht, gave assurances, but just wasted more of his precious time. In the end he was a proper thief too.

The third told them, up front, that he would decide whether to take the case or not. after a few days of not answering his phone. He finally answered and said he didn't want to take the case. Seems like business as usual in Thailand to me.

I d'ont understand what you mean by the lawyers being " very Thai ". Anybody who thinks that this problem could be sorted out for 5,000 baht is very niave. Try five or ten times that amount perhaps ?

I feel for your mate. It would be a nightmare to have ones identity confused with someone elses. I get mad enought when a jobsworth doesn't beleive that I'm the same person depending if one of my middle names is/isn't in a list of documents provided for a passport!

You need to approach big guns like Siam Premier, Baker & McKenzie, Allen and Overy on something of their calibre by the sounds of it. A Somchai on the street lawyer who does visa's, work permits and company establishments isn't going to be useful, have the right connections, nor know which section of the 'book' to throw back at the immigration department when they drag their feet. At a stretch, I'd also try someone like Dej Udom who do immigration stuff for large multinationals.

They'd be expensive though, and that would be an issue.

[mojaco]

When my wife and I renewed our "extension for retirement purposes" last month in Bangkok, they took electronic fingerprints. So it looks like before long the "name change" option to come back in as a different person will not be possible in the next year or two. On the other hand, once EVERYONE is fingerprinted (when - 50 years hence?) then this type of identity confusion might no longer occur.

This is no help in the current situation for the OP's friend, but the Thai Immigration must believe they have some sort of "incontrovertible proof" that the two people are really one and the same. If there were fingerprints available somewhere of that blacklisted person, then it should be possible to prove the two people are not the same. But it seems (and I haven't read every post on this topic) that the OP doesn't have any concrete information on who that other person is? If so there is probably no way to prove they are different people.

And I agree that probably the only hope would be to find some respected, influential Thai person(s) to intercede with Immigration, or get some church, wat, mosque, NGO or other respected group in Thailand to help. Or hire a very expensive law firm.

It is very sad that families can be broken apart like this with no (apparent) feeling of concern or sympathy from the main Immigration authorities (except for the kind officer at the airport.) Might it be possible to make contact with her through Thaivisa-advertised lawyers such as Sunbelt (or other such reasonable cost honest lawyers) to solicit her help?

Edited August 8, 2009 by mojaco

[spongeman]

...Well, they were all very proper, and very Thai. The first one said he was working on it, with assurances every day, but wasn't. This ate up valuable time until they got to the second proper lawyer, who took their 5,000 baht, gave assurances, but just wasted more of his precious time. In the end he was a proper thief too.

The third told them, up front, that he would decide whether to take the case or not. after a few days of not answering his phone. He finally answered and said he didn't want to take the case. Seems like business as usual in Thailand to me.

I d'ont understand what you mean by the lawyers being " very Thai ". Anybody who thinks that this problem could be sorted out for 5,000 baht is very niave. Try five or ten times that amount perhaps ?

[samran]

...Well, they were all very proper, and very Thai. The first one said he was working on it, with assurances every day, but wasn't. This ate up valuable time until they got to the second proper lawyer, who took their 5,000 baht, gave assurances, but just wasted more of his precious time. In the end he was a proper thief too.

The third told them, up front, that he would decide whether to take the case or not. after a few days of not answering his phone. He finally answered and said he didn't want to take the case. Seems like business as usual in Thailand to me.

I d'ont understand what you mean by the lawyers being " very Thai ". Anybody who thinks that this problem could be sorted out for 5,000 baht is very niave. Try five or ten times that amount perhaps ?

5000 baht per hour, perhaps.

[antony77]

I find the whole thing so extra0rdinary that I feel that there must be more to it than meets the eye.

Why did the lawyer refuse to take what seems a straightforward case? Also a lot of other questions.

In my almost 50 years here I have come across many situations regarding foreigners in trouble maintaining innocence and then the real truth coming out. I can not believe that immigration would blacklist someone on his name only. There must be millions of John Smiths or Browns travelling around. They would check his date of birth and where he was born and other details before refusing him entry.

A good reputable Thai lawyer would sort it all out. It would cost money. But that is one of the problems living here.

[Mario2008]

Thai ombudsman:

http://www.ombudsman.go.th/2008/index1.html

[spongeman]

I find the whole thing so extra0rdinary that I feel that there must be more to it than meets the eye.

Why did the lawyer refuse to take what seems a straightforward case? Also a lot of other questions.

In my almost 50 years here I have come across many situations regarding foreigners in trouble maintaining innocence and then the real truth coming out. I can not believe that immigration would blacklist someone on his name only. There must be millions of John Smiths or Browns travelling around. They would check his date of birth and where he was born and other details before refusing him entry.

A good reputable Thai lawyer would sort it all out. It would cost money. But that is one of the problems living here.

My sentiments exactly.

[Dork]

I feel for your mate. It would be a nightmare to have ones identity confused with someone elses. I get mad enought when a jobsworth doesn't beleive that I'm the same person depending if one of my middle names is/isn't in a list of documents provided for a passport!

You need to approach big guns like Siam Premier, Baker & McKenzie, Allen and Overy on something of their calibre by the sounds of it. A Somchai on the street lawyer who does visa's, work permits and company establishments isn't going to be useful, have the right connections, nor know which section of the 'book' to throw back at the immigration department when they drag their feet. At a stretch, I'd also try someone like Dej Udom who do immigration stuff for large multinationals.

They'd be expensive though, and that would be an issue.

Samran is absolutely right, this is the correct action. From my experience though, name brand legal firms will charge in the region of 8-12k per hour. Unfortunately, also in my experience, if you're paying much less than that don't expect the same standards that you would in the west.

[buzzer]

From my experience though, name brand legal firms will charge in the region of 8-12k per hour. Unfortunately, also in my experience, if you're paying much less than that don't expect the same standards that you would in the west.

Unfortunately my friend is nowhere near being able to afford these "Park Avenue Lawyers"

Thanks! - Buzzer

[moe666]

These thing happen every were its not about being Thai. A fellow were I worked ( top level security clearance required for all employees) was placed on a travel advisory list for Homeland Security name similar to someone elses. The last time I heard he was still unable to get his name off list.

[spongeman]

Reading the first thread again the OP was given advice on who to contact by a very experienced person on this website, which was immediately shot down by the OP.

So therefore as many threads as you want can be opened, but I think if your not going to take that advice then give up.

[Phatcharanan]

Reading the first thread again the OP was given advice on who to contact by a very experienced person on this website, which was immediately shot down by the OP.

So therefore as many threads as you want can be opened, but I think if your not going to take that advice then give up.

Hear hear.

Given good advice earlier. The OP ignored that. Subsequent threads/postings are just getting boring now.

[stgrhe]

One thing that surprises me is that it ever so often a 'friend' that is in jeopardy. Why doesn't the 'friend' ask the questions for himself? If I had a friend in trouble I would rather direct him to TV, i.e. if he/she was unaware of the forum, so he/she could ask his/her questions first hand.

[astral]

When my wife and I renewed our "extension for retirement purposes" last month in Bangkok, they took electronic fingerprints. So it looks like before long the "name change" option to come back in as a different person will not be possible in the next year or two. On the other hand, once EVERYONE is fingerprinted (when - 50 years hence?) then this type of identity confusion might no longer occur.

Finger prints will help establish a positive ID if they have finger prints for the other person.

The converse will probably not be true

It is always difficult to prove a negative.

I do not expect the Immigration to have a sophisticated search machine to instant matching,

such as one sees on US crime dramas.

If it were me I would approach my embassy for assistance.

[fantuzi]

Reading the first thread again the OP was given advice on who to contact by a very experienced person on this website, which was immediately shot down by the OP.

So therefore as many threads as you want can be opened, but I think if your not going to take that advice then give up.

Hear hear.

Given good advice earlier. The OP ignored that. Subsequent threads/postings are just getting boring now.

My small opinion - OP friend's situation is difficult,but not hopeless for simple reason - he was not refused entry!

If somebody is blacklisted,he is automatically stopped and send back(deported - in tech lingo).

[buzzer]

Reading the first thread again the OP was given advice on who to contact by a very experienced person on this website, which was immediately shot down by the OP.

So therefore as many threads as you want can be opened, but I think if your not going to take that advice then give up.

Could you please link me to the advice & rejection in question? I'd like to take another look at it. OP.

Thanks - Buzzer

[buzzer]

One thing that surprises me is that it ever so often a 'friend' that is in jeopardy. Why doesn't the 'friend' ask the questions for himself? If I had a friend in trouble I would rather direct him to TV, i.e. if he/she was unaware of the forum, so he/she could ask his/her questions first hand.

This might give you your answer. They don't speak, read, or write English well.

But thanks anyhow = Buzzer

[spongeman]

Reading the first thread again the OP was given advice on who to contact by a very experienced person on this website, which was immediately shot down by the OP.

So therefore as many threads as you want can be opened, but I think if your not going to take that advice then give up.

Could you please link me to the advice & rejection in question? I'd like to take another look at it. OP.

Thanks - Buzzer

Post 2,3 and 5 of your first thread.

[buzzer]

Reading the first thread again the OP was given advice on who to contact by a very experienced person on this website, which was immediately shot down by the OP.

So therefore as many threads as you want can be opened, but I think if your not going to take that advice then give up.

Hear hear.

Given good advice earlier. The OP ignored that. Subsequent threads/postings are just getting boring now.

I don't like to defend my actions. If I'm wrong, I just apologize. If I'm right, then my decisions stand for themselves. The following is my original response to the two that referred me to try Sunbelt Asia. I did not take their advice - rather, I researched their advice, and decided not to follow their advice. Apparently you didn't read this:

"I did a search on ThaiVisa regarding Sunbelt. They have a lot of people warning against using them. More bad comments than good ones - seemed to be real situations from earnest posters. Doesn't sound like a good place to start."

Neither of the posters who recommended Sunbelt claimed to have used Sunbelt for themselves with good results. In fact, the sole qualification given was that Sunbelt was an advertiser and supporter of the site. There are some posts on TV where the posters did claim good results. However, the majority of the posts were negative. Some were extremely negative. The negatives, IMHO, by far outweighed the positives. Plus it seemed like an immigration law firm that specialized in Farang clients, but my friends are functionally Thai. So, considering all the thought and research I put into investigating Sunbelt I would say that your statement that the 2 posters' suggestion to hire Sunbelt, that was, in your words, "immediately shot down by the OP". Is untrue, and does not take into account the fact that I researched the matter to a point that I was satisfied that it wasn't a suggestion I would take them up on. However, I was a gentleman enough to reply to their advice, and now, perhaps they, too, if they've researched as I have, have learned that Sunbelt, in spite of its being a sponsor, might not always be a good choice. To say I immediately shot them down does not square with the facts, and even a cursory reading of my reply demonstrates that amply.

What do you know of me and what kind of research I did, or the logic I apply in making a decision? Would you not agree that I should let you pick which advice you accept and reject for yourself? Do you like it when I say that the statements; "immediately shot down by the OP", together with "I think if your not going to take that advice then give up." and being backed up by, "Hear hear. Given good advice earlier. The OP ignored that. Subsequent threads/postings are just getting boring now." - Are basically coming from a place of ignorance? In fact, you have no idea which suggestions I accepted, and which I rejected.

If you, personally gave me some suggestion, and I accepted it or rejected it, at least you'd be an involved party. But it's easy for an outsider just to jump in, and without a clue of what's really happening, make uninformed judgments. That doesn't mean you're right, however, just that you make uninformed judgments.

But if you carefully read my original post of this thread. You would have learned that I was writing it as an update I felt I owed it to those who have followed this situation from the beginning, and it is not a solicitation for more advice. For throughout these 3 topics, there was some other helpful advice that I did not shoot down. Maestro, for instance gave me some good, solid advice. It ultimately didn't solve the problem, but I took it to heart and tried to use it. Mario2008 was one of those who seconded the other post about Sunbelt. Yet this time, he gave some good advice, and I've already passed word on to my friend's wife about the ombudsman. So, how do you know what and where I'm getting suggestions from? Many things are going on 'behind the scenes' that you're completely aware of.

Sorry if this doesn't meet your criteria for entertainment. Having my friend put in such a spot isn't exactly entertaining to me either. If you enjoy reading stories of people suffering, may I suggest the many great works of classic literature from Shakespeare to Dostoevsky, it may improve your reading, give you a more compassionate heart, and a bit of culture as a bonus.

So, as this entire post is an update, and not a solicitation for more advice - as I read back through this post, I don't see where I'm asking for any advice. If you do have any constructive advice to give I'll talk to my lawyer about it, and, if he thinks it's a good idea, I'll hire a new lawyer:)

But thanks for all the concern expressed by all the rest of you. It was, and is, greatly appreciated. Remember - I'm just updating the previous posts for those who were so helpful before. If anything comes along in the future I will, likewise, post an update.

Thanks,

Buzzer

[spongeman]

You have never used this law firm. So d'ont make unfounded allegations against them unless you have personal experience with them.

Your friend got burned financially and otherwise as he did not use the advice given to him. Fact.

[buzzer]

You have never used this law firm. So d'ont make unfounded allegations against them unless you have personal experience with them.

Your friend got burned financially and otherwise as he did not use the advice given to him. Fact.

Well, have you ever used Sunbelt? If not, I'd say that compromises your credibility because you are promoting someone without any personal experience with them. Two sides of the same coin. I didn't make an allegation against them, unfounded or otherwise. An allegation is an assertion, especially an accusation, not necessarily based on facts. So for me to make an allegation against them I would have had to assert that they were unreliable, or thieves, or incompetent. That would have been an allegation. I merely researched what many others have said, and made a judgment which my friend concurred with, thus he looked elsewhere. If I had gone on at length to explain why we decided against Sunbelt, and quoted those who do say such things, I still would not be guilty of an allegation against them. I would merely be citing the allegations made by others.

Other examples of allegations, though I hate to say it, would be to refer you to your quotes above.

And where do you get the information that my friend got burned financially, and otherwise, as he did not use the advice given to him to use Sunbelt? What personal experience do you have with my friend to even say this to begin with? You would have to know every lawyer in his acquaintance, and the details of every transaction to make this omniscient statement. Then you go on to label it "Fact". Remember the definition of Allegation? An allegation is an assertion, especially an accusation, not necessarily based on facts.

This really brings up the question of, "Why are you interested" and, "Why are you posting? You don't seem to look at the facts, unless they support your position. Worse, you don't seem to be open to them when they're laid out in a, point-for-point, logical manor. And it seems you won't be satisfied short of controlling me into doing what you want me to do. Then you insist on coming back at me, when I'm obviously not a good choice for your kind of coercion, be it dialog, or monologue, you seem hel_l-bent to foist on me.

So, with all due respect. Could you just stop? You're certainly not winning me over with your overwhelmingly convincing logic, and I doubt if your presenting yourself to the other readers here in a positive light.

[Maestro]

Topic closed in consultation with the OP, as it has run its course.

--

Maestro