Lonely,

[philo]

This has been nagging me for a long time now: Loneliness.

I thought I was clever when I married a woman who could not or would not speak English. I was (and am) speaking and reading Thai (so so).

It has backfired in a sad way. My daughter - two and a half years old - is bypassing me in small talk (in Thai). Sometimes, when I don't understand what she is saying, she gets furious and shout out in Thai: You don't understand, you don't have knowledge of language, what language do you speak!

I have sent my wife to learn English 4 times in 3 years - but she refuses to speak the language. Why? I speak Thai.

It is a strange feeling beeing a stranger to your children ...

PS My son - 4 months old - will be spoken to in no other language than English (and my Scandinavian mother tongue).

[MaryWorth]

Did you not make an effort to speak only English to your daughter (or your Scandinavian mother tongue)? I don't think it's too late at all to do that, your daughter is only 2 and a half, but you should start immediately.

You should only speak your own language to her, as much as possible.

[Lancelot]

Well sorry to hear about your situation but are you sure its only a language problem? First two year olds should not be scolding their parents; and second, maybe your wife has some other issues?

Any way, I'm not trying to be a smart ass and good luck to you man.

[hnka]

It is not too late to start now. Kids are like sponges, they absorb pretty easily and fast. Speak English and your mother tongue at the same time everyday. In no time, they will be able to converse in both languages. Good luck though! .....

[choppychugger]

Aswell as the day to day stuff with my son (3), we always try and do a few activities through the week - Going to the park, walks on the beach, painting at home, trips to see the elephants - Just the usual stuff I guess. All the time I am interacting to him in my native language, and his mum in hers. He also has some dvd's in English and some in Thai, so that helps for the mummy and daddy quiet times. As someone mentioned before kids that age are sponges and will absorb alot more than you will give them credit for.

By the sounds of it, your partner could be a bit more supportive. That could change if she see's you making more of an effort with the second/third languages with your kids - she may want to join in more. Fun acitivities are the way forward.

choppy

[Macx]

That's where the TV and cartoon dvds (in English) come in

It's amazing how much the little monsters learn thru hours of sitting in front of the TV.

Good luck. It's still plenty early.

[asiasurfer]

I agree with most other posters here. Language alone can’t be your problem. There must be some other issues… Do you spend enough time with your kids? Normally all children will have a natural bond with their parents…

Disagree with Macx though. Leaving your kids in front of the telly all day long will do nothing for the bonding process between you and your children.

[venturalaw]

What is the purpose of forcing your Thai speaking wife to learn English? Do you really want your children to be learning English from her? It's an issue that I have discussed with my wife (Thai). We decided that she is to speak only Thai to our child, and I will speak only English. That way he learns proper Thai spoken by a Thai, and proper English spoken by an American (although there may be some Brits here who will challenge whether an American is able to speak proper English).

[zorro1]

most posters missed the fact.." Loneliness" you see it in Thai/farang couples /familys everyday. Sitting in a restaurant with that thousand yard stare. This is a lot deeper then language barrier and as much to do with cultural, thai/farang mismatch . Good luck my man

[Macx]

Good, lord, don't take me literally ( I did throw in a smiley)

You can't be with your kids every waking moment (that would drive you crazy), and they watch TV all the time anyway. Just make sure it's all in YOUR native language.

Are there any friendly farangs around for you to chat with? I notice that in places like Phuket/Bangkok where there are many mixed children, both the parents and the children seem more happy interacting with others in their similar situations. The kids talk with each other in multiple languages easily.

[philo]

Thanks for all answers. I have erred speaking only Thai to my wife and daughter, and I am trying to do better now.

One keyword mentioned by one poster and me is loneliness.

I am not able to discuss existential/cultural/future aspects of our life with my wife (in Thai), so all my emotions, worries, important choices etc. I have mostly to keep for myself.

I guess - as many posters said - it is not too late. But it is a difficult change know: Both my wife and my daughter are real hotheads, and give me the 'kwai'-look when I insist on speaking English.

In 6 months my daughetr will change room in her nursery. I have done some research/spying, and they have 4-6 hours of English every week. May be that will help.

But I am still frustrated - make the bed and wipe the flooor she can learn from her mother (it is actually in Thai school curriculum - posted on TV some months ago), but English is imperative to transfer knowledge of the farang part of the world to your children.

Anyway - thanks, I just had to vent it...

[philo]

I forgot to say thet we live in the semi-sticks of Isan, so only one other mixed child here (5 years old). So the only social interaction possible is with a few old men - not very suitable for children.

So I guess in time we will have to move southwards.

[nigelandjan]

I forgot to say thet we live in the semi-sticks of Isan, so only one other mixed child here (5 years old). So the only social interaction possible is with a few old men - not very suitable for children.

So I guess in time we will have to move southwards.

Where abouts in the semi sticks in Issan ?? We will be back in Ban Dung area in Feb next year for 3 weeks , if your nearby we can pop and see you and have a chat a couple of times if you like

[Sophon]

I am not able to discuss existential/cultural/future aspects of our life with my wife (in Thai), so all my emotions, worries, important choices etc. I have mostly to keep for myself.

That is unlikely to change by your wife learning english. Just as your thai language abilities are insufficient to cover such deep and complicated topics, so would your thai wife's english abilities be. Especially since she doesn't seem to have any real interest in learning and using english, but only does so because you want her to.

Sophon

Edited August 11, 2009 by Sophon

[SweatySock]

I'm in a similar situation to the OP. I also live up the boony and communicate most of my time here in Thai.

My son is 14 months old, I speak to him in English and his mother speaks to him in Thai. His mother and I communicate in Thai 90% of the time.

My son seems to be a happy enough toddler, he is beginning to sound words, some in Thai and some in English. We went to the Uk a couple of months back and he adjusted from a 90% Thai speaking environment to a 90% English speaking environment with no problems.

I would suggest spending some quality with your daughter and encouraging her English speaking skills.

Only my two pence worth.

[mizzi39]

I forgot to say thet we live in the semi-sticks of Isan, so only one other mixed child here (5 years old). So the only social interaction possible is with a few old men - not very suitable for children.

So I guess in time we will have to move southwards.

We live in the semi sticks of Isan too.Our son just turned one. My wife has a good grasp of English and my Thai is still at survival level (unfortunately) but i am still learning. Like other posters stated you should only speak to your children in your native tongue. my wife will speak to our son in both Thai and English, which is not a bad thing since he is immersed in Thai from his Yai, Da, etc.

In reference to your original post, it sounds like there may be a lot of underlying problems between you and your wife. This can create an extreme case of feeling isolated and lonley. Having other "falang' friends is a good thing. I have 3 close friends up here, around my age (I am 40) and eventhough they are a good social outlet, I cannot take them home with me. Hope you can iron out what is going on in the household. Good luck!

[Geekfreaklover]

I agree with the last post.

Find some farang friends that speak English and Thai.

It often takes a friend to show you what you already know (if that makes any sense).

[philo]

Thanks again to all for constructive advice.

Of course there are other underlying issus - every marriage has them.

I play with my children from 6AM till nursery time for the girl - then it is work, buying pampers, water, bills, practical things till 3PM. Then I stay with them till sleep time 7-8PM. The few farangs here doesn't gather before our bed time (also: pensioners in their 60-70ties are not very interested in toddlers and babys).

And I cannot stay out in the late evening/night. My mother told me: One child is like none, two is like ten (workload).

So the concencus must be: Speak English and your native language as soon and as much as possible...

Over and out (have to pick her up at the nursery).

[bina]

u also said u want to discuss more

exisensexistential/cultural/future aspects of our life

? having discussed this often in the ladies section, i think that in general, thai do not like to discuss these things no matter what language its in; they just dont care that far in advance, and they dont like meaningless (to them) discussions that dont have specific immediate benefits (not talking about money): want to buy a washing machine is more practical to discuss then 'the meaning of life, the world etc- monty python)

its not just the language but the educational level, cultural realities, religious/philisophical differences. hubby cannot understand why i always want to discuss what wil be in ten years (when i am elderly and he is old ). he claims that he cant know what will be tommorrow, so why bother in discussing it. so i have learned to be content with the good points in him (warmth affection, household stuff, a hard worker, tolerant of my foibles...) and for intellectual stimulation, there is my work (as far as mental stimulation goes in peeling potatoes with 22 yr old just out of the army kids), my two best woman friends (thank god for cell phones) and thai visa, and daily life in general.

im not even in issaan sticks but in a near jeruslaem kibbutz!!

try looking at it from your wife's perspective. what did she want in a husband? (do not start with the thai girls/money thing its old hat....) ; she is content to have her child, her house, cooking, u are around for her in evenings, and she has her girlfriends for social life. so essentially, u need to get a life...... i.e. male mates ( or whatever it is that men call it); join a motorcycle club, go fishing, raise fighting chickens....

i manage to get hubby to one 'field trip' of my choice (and his apparoval, so it wotn be an art museaum for sure) every few saturdays and although he grumbles, he always enjoys it in the end, just like my kids used to do.... , one saturday a month is thai mates day and i am stuck watching thai men sitting around getting drunk at their place (i drive, he cant) so i take a book or whatever.

once every few times he does the reverse (my friends away from my kibbutz and we park hubby on a sofa or with internet in thai since he cant really communicate with friends' husbands)

maybe your expectations are higher or different than what u thought would be/ im divorced remarried so expectations changed )

bina

israel

[aussiebebe]

Reading the OP's original comments the only things I can think of are;

It all perfectly normal! Toddlers will scream a lot - it's called the 'Terrible Twos' which means that it's a common-enough childhood phase for the general population to have given it a specific name. Don't worry about it - the phase will pass.

Secondly, about loneliness - the OP's willingness and ability to learn Thai is great, but just generally - worldwide - marriage simply isn't the safety-net against loneliness that it once was. The world has changed and that's that.

Edited August 11, 2009 by aussiebebe

[SNGLIFE]

I can empathize with you. I also married a non-English speaking wife 5 years ago. At the time, our daughter was 3 and spoke only Isaan which I could not speak. However, the wife was eager to learn English (mostly out of "what will my friends think if I am married to an American and cannot speak English?"). We spoke only Thai during our courtship and phased in smatterings of English during the first year of marriage. The wife spoke only Thai and broken English with our daughter. I spoke only English with her (ok, a little Thai if I needed her to understand quickly).

Now at almost 8 years, she speaks almost fluent Thai, English, and Isaan (and is at the top of her grade in all subjects, I might proudly add).

So, it can be done if there is effort, patience, consistency, and a bit of outside the family unit pressure to motivate the wife.

It also sounds like you have disciplinary issues with your daughter. I am 100% against hitting or yelling at my daughter. That said, I gave her ONE firm tap with the belt at age 4 only ONCE, and have never had to do it again. Now it only takes a firm tone, or in the very rare case she is in a stubborn mood, I just take it off and lay it on the coffee table. Nope. No disciplinary problems and I shower her with pretty much whatever she wants as reward for being an exceptionally mindful and respectful good girl and student.

Having discussions with my wife on thoughtful matters is a problem I also have. One which was magnified when we lived strictly in the sticks of Isaan with no other English speakers or people of a higher social and educational background around. My decision was to move. Day after day of mind-numbing superficial conversations was driving me crazy. First, I turned to my friends whom I called frequently. Then, I turned to the net. Then, I made the decision that I had to get out of there and we moved to where more English speakers are available.

Just sharing my story. I felt your pain.

[keestha]

I can confirm it is not so easy to be consequent in speaking English with your child when you are conversing in Thai with your wife all the time.

Our daughter is 2 years 3 months now, and though I do speak English to her, I don't think she realizes yet that there is more than one language: I keep pointing at somebody's hair in a picture, saying hair, hair, but all she says then is phom, phom (Thai word for hair). Unavoidably when I want her to understand something quickly, like in a situation that could be dangerous, sometimes I speak to her in Thai.

I hope though that when she becomes better in verbal communication in general, her understanding and speaking ability of English will also improve.

[venturalaw]

I can confirm it is not so easy to be consequent in speaking English with your child when you are conversing in Thai with your wife all the time.

Our daughter is 2 years 3 months now, and though I do speak English to her, I don't think she realizes yet that there is more than one language: I keep pointing at somebody's hair in a picture, saying hair, hair, but all she says then is phom, phom (Thai word for hair). Unavoidably when I want her to understand something quickly, like in a situation that could be dangerous, sometimes I speak to her in Thai.

I hope though that when she becomes better in verbal communication in general, her understanding and speaking ability of English will also improve.

I'm curious. Are your skills in speaking Thai as proficient as your wife's? If not, then why speak Thai to your daughter (except in the emergency situation that you referred to)? I do not want my son to learn broken English (which he would learn from my wife if she spoke English to our son).

[steelepulse]

Part of the problem it sounds like is you don't really have any peers seeing as you are in the sticks in Issan and speaking more Thai then English.  Explain to your wife that you want a better future for your kids and  that you think it would be best if you could move to somewhere where both your wife and kids are exposed to English speakers, such as CM, Phuket, BKK etc.  Of course she will balk and this will be a tough sell, but a move away from the in-laws ( I assume your wife's family is there in the sticks too) and a change of scenery will do you well ( if you can financially afford it or can find a new job).  

On your 4 month old, do not speak any Thai and stick to your native tongue or English and leave the thai to your wife. It always amazes me to see foreigners speaking thai to their kids in bad accented thai. Kids are smart, they'll pick up whatever you speak to them as long as you speak to them consistently in your native tongue.  Why should you have to switch over to thai so they will understand quicker, when they should be able to comprehend in both languages equally.

[keestha]

Venturalaw, (replying to post 23)

Of course my wife, being Thai, has better Thai speaking skills than I have. But having been in Thailand since 1992, I can say anything I want in Thai, and I understand everything said to me.

As said, I am trying to be consequent in speaking English to my daughter, but it feels a bit artificial because Thai would be a far easier means of communication.

What also contributes to it feeling artificial, is that English is not my native language. But it wouldn't make sense speaking my native language to her, because I would be practically the only person she could speak this language with, whilst she can speak English with the guests in the resort we are running. It seems to be a rule that if a child can speak a certain language only with one of the parents, it will soon loose interest in speaking/learning this language.

Edited August 14, 2009 by keestha

[Benjie]

I talk to my daughter (now nearly 4) entirely in English, and my Wife talked to her when she was young mainly in Thai but nowadays perhaps more English.

She's picked up an amazing vocabulary and can speak fluently with my wife in Thai or English and myself in English. I wouldn't worry too much about the Thai language skills if you have a Thai wife, that will come naturally.

[philo]

I have an hour for myself right now, and would like to say there are many good - but differing - views here. Thanks to everybody for keeping it civil. I am also happy that I am not the only one who are not perfect .

There are many issues here:

1. The (somewhat naive) farang comes to Thailand and makes an effort to learn the language and the culture. You get a lot of positive feedback everywhere. But in my family situation it has badly backfired.

2. Habits (language) - when first formed - are difficult to change.

3. If your child is heading for the road - you don't consider what language to use - you scream out whatever words she understands.

4. Being a single man in Thailand is easy. Having a family is not.

5. When you think back to your 'deep' conversations with your university educated gf's in your own country - a bottle of wine, a joint and some poetry/music made 'two being one'. Here - after the honeymoon days are gone, there is often an ocean between two people from totally different cultures. Raising children only adds to the distance.

6. Insisting that medicines should be kept out of reach, nail polish remover is not a toy, stopping the child from playing with hairpins in the electricity outlet, feeling like an idiot becouse you have bought child car seats that are never used is not fun. Sometimes, when I insist that the children should be wrapped up in their respective seats - my wife just takes the children and ride a tuk-tuk.

7. Am I a doormat? May be, but having fights all the time is not good for the children, so very often I do not adhere to my own principles.

8. When and if I go home to my own country - I would be jailed or the children taken away from us for many of the things my wife and her family do here.

Being frustrated is natural in a bicultural family. Even back in Europe people divorce because of an argument about how to squeeze the tooth paste tube.

If it wasn't for the children, I would have packed my passport, Visa-card and the tooth brush (the rest of the shit they can have) and left a long time ago.

philo

OFF topic - OK - but I feel good to have vented it.

Back to work.

Edited August 14, 2009 by philo

[soic]

I know where you're coming from on many of the issues... As far a the running for the road and safety issues like that... my 8 year old step-son speaks no english aside from counting 1 to 10; but one of the first things he learned from me was yes, no and Stop. If you yell out their name along with Stop or No, they can grasp that quickly and you will automatically want to shout that anyway...

My motto has always been K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid). I talk to them in English and I also try to learn Thai; we are in Thailand. As far as some of the other things; if you let it, it can drive you nuts. We just have to realize that we are in Thailand and can't expect the Thai's, especially the rural Thais to conform to our western ideals and culture. I've had to bite my tongue when it comes to some of the stuff my wife does; it's just the Thai way. Some of the stuff they do and eat would probably kill us I've just learned to accept it or ingnore it if possible.

As for the lonely; I think we all sometimes get that way. In our village, we get together on Wednesdays and Saturdays for an afternoon piss-up. We visit each other's business, get together for dinner or a night out occassionally. That gives us all a chance to vent and learn how the others have responded to the same problems.

My ex-wife is Romanian and lives in our former home in the US, with her parents. Our daughter spoke mostly Romanian because I was away working in Iraq. I made it a point to talk to her everytime I went home in English and her little neighbor friends talked to her in English. When I'd get home for a visit; much to my ex's and her parents dismay... our daughter would start speaking english and refused to speak in Romanian, "Daddy is home and he talks english". As it was said before, kids are like sponges, they can grasp languages very quickly. My daughter just turned 6, she now speaks perfect Romanian, perfect English and even some Spanish. When I took my Thai wife home to meet her, she even learned some Thai in just the space of 10 days.

Hang in there... you have more control than you realize.... Many may not agree; but that's my way of maintaining my sanity when I'm home for months at a time.

[getgoin]

This has been nagging me for a long time now: Loneliness.

I thought I was clever when I married a woman who could not or would not speak English. I was (and am) speaking and reading Thai (so so).

It has backfired in a sad way. My daughter - two and a half years old - is bypassing me in small talk (in Thai). Sometimes, when I don't understand what she is saying, she gets furious and shout out in Thai: You don't understand, you don't have knowledge of language, what language do you speak!

I have sent my wife to learn English 4 times in 3 years - but she refuses to speak the language. Why? I speak Thai.

It is a strange feeling beeing a stranger to your children ...

PS My son - 4 months old - will be spoken to in no other language than English (and my Scandinavian mother tongue).

Sounds like it is time to show your daughter what the back of your hand feels like when it smacks her disrespectful bottom.

[getgoin]

And this thread is also another reason why I do not speak Thai to anyone including my wife, who speaks good English. You call it loneliness but the grass is always greener. Enjoy it.