Happy 64th Anniversary

[barryofthailand]

Last year President George W. Bush made his farewell visit ti Thailand, and in his speech at Bitec Bang Na he stated that America celebrates a 75 year friendship with Thailand. Now if this is true, how was Great Britain And the United States at war with Thailand 60 years ago?

Barry

[Thaddeus]

IMHO they have no reason to feel special and superior.

where does this come from?

Hmmmmm ........ makes you wonder if there is some French influence after all.

[chiangmaikelly]

Last year President George W. Bush made his farewell visit ti Thailand, and in his speech at Bitec Bang Na he stated that America celebrates a 75 year friendship with Thailand. Now if this is true, how was Great Britain And the United States at war with Thailand 60 years ago?

Barry

Both the US and UK bombed Thailand all during the war. They didn't do much damage but I assume it made them feel better. A Thai pilot even shot down one American plane. He was also flying an American plane. War is like that. The US got over the war feeling sooner than the Brits but that was because of the problems caused in Burma and the Shan states by the Thais.

Before the war the UK was Thailand's largest customer. After the war the US replaced the UK and today is still Thailands largest customer. I think this fact is the reason no one in the US or Thailand likes to talk about a history that might embarrass some people. Around 1860 Thailand did offer offer Abraham Lincoln an elephant but he turned it down informing Thailand that America used steam power instead of elephants but he did appreciate the gesture.

[oldsparrow]

Happy anniversary indeed !!!

We cheated the west and we cheated the Jap.

Banzai ! Banzai ! Hurrah ! Hurrah !

We didn't have the rape of Bangkok

We didn't have the old soldier's constitution (Although any constitution won't last long in TL HAHA)

Diplomats of all small countries should study Thai case....

[sgunn65]

It hasn't been mentioned but the British bombed Bangkok during the war due to their declaration of war and their joining the axis forces. This was precipitated by the Japanese invading Thailand. Paratroopers landed at Dan Muang and Thailand capitulated after a long drawn out war of attrition that lasted 4 hours!!! The occupation of parts of Thailand could be dressed up as Allied forces being given support!!

[oldsparrow]

Yes sir ! one Brit bomb barely missed my mom. (not joking)

4 hours !! Wow !! the Jap were better then, we were able to resist them for just 2 hours. (not joking also)

OK, the red devils had enjoyed Singha for 3 hours 45 minutes first then beat us in a quarter. So it became tradition for the Brit who landed at Don Muang, "Hit the dirt, grab the beer, !"

Edited August 17, 2009 by oldsparrow

[h90]

Its kinda funny but if Thailand had been conquered the standard of living would probably be much higher now.

Burma, India, Laos, Cambodia, Philippines were conquered but the standard of living is lower.

Japan wasn't conquered and the standard of living is higher...

[h90]

Last year President George W. Bush made his farewell visit ti Thailand, and in his speech at Bitec Bang Na he stated that America celebrates a 75 year friendship with Thailand. Now if this is true, how was Great Britain And the United States at war with Thailand 60 years ago?

Barry

Well Bush often showed that he is complete lack of any education....Maybe he confused Thailand with Taiwan?

[oldsparrow]

"if Thailand had been conquered the standard of living would probably be much higher now" and the majority of expats would not be here.

What? There would be way more expats.

But the ex pat even don't want to live in the "conqueror countries" hoe copme they prefer the "conquered" ones.

[oldsparrow]

Last year President George W. Bush made his farewell visit ti Thailand, and in his speech at Bitec Bang Na he stated that America celebrates a 75 year friendship with Thailand. Now if this is true, how was Great Britain And the United States at war with Thailand 60 years ago? Barry

Well Bush often showed that he is complete lack of any education....Maybe he confused Thailand with Taiwan?

The US officially accept that we had friendly relation for 165 year or so. The Am. Embassy even made lapel pin of the number with 2 flags for the guests in July 4, 2008 party. This year the Ambassador alsp said again of this 100+ years relation.

[GrahamF]

I asked a friend about what happened during WWII and this is what I got back, can't be sure though:

"Little known fact however, is that the Thais actually fought the French in the early days of the war, and did so in Vietnam at the behest of the Japanese. The Japanese didn't want to fight a colonial power directly, as WWII proper hadn't yet begun, so the Japanese asked the Thais to do so as their proxy - or be invaded. That way it looked like a 'South East Asian internal affair' rather than something bigger. Similar political sleight of hand / technicality / excuse they used when they invaded China. The Thais heavily outnumbered the French in terms of men, tanks, and aircraft - in fact, the Thai's had just purchased the Martin B10 bomber (very early precursor of the B17) which was considered to be the most modern of its kind at the time, and also had the Curtiss P36 Hawk as well. The French had a few outdated French fighters and were shot out of the skis. So, when WWII ended, the now victorious former colonial powers returned to Asia and reminded the Thais that they hadn't been completely 'neutral' during the war - putting the pressure on them to allow bases. The Thais obliged as they had been caught with their pants down and could do little else or face the anger of the Allies."

[oldsparrow]

The Thai military gov. of the 40s - early 70s had been too glad to cooperate with the West. What could be the best way to get strengthen and suppress any challenge to their powers be it other Thai political group or armed movement of the neighboring countries before and after they chased the French out. Cold war sponsorship for anyone who declare they fight communism.

[dumbnewbie]

Around 1860 Thailand did offer offer Abraham Lincoln an elephant but he turned it down informing Thailand that America used steam power instead of elephants but he did appreciate the gesture.

[dumbnewbie]

Happy anniversary indeed !!!

We cheated the west and we cheated the Jap.

Banzai ! Banzai ! Hurrah ! Hurrah !

We didn't have the rape of Bangkok

We didn't have the old soldier's constitution (Although any constitution won't last long in TL HAHA)

Diplomats of all small countries should study Thai case....

Agree! I really admire the Thai government's flexibility and ability to maintain independence with so much turmoil raging around the country these last couple hundred years. They were very smart about balancing other powers against each other in order to preserve Thai independence. Thailand is like bamboo - it sways with the wind, and never breaks. They keep good relations with everyone as much as possible, but especially with whoever is strongest at the moment. That's just smart in my book. How come so few other countries have this kind of common sense?

I didn't know that the Chinese kicked the Burmese out of Thailand. How did the Thais pull that one off? Pretty awesome.

[Rinrada]

However as we ALL know the US did not declare war on Thailand......good old Seni....

In the immediate aftermath of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japanese forces invaded Thailand's territory on the morning of December 8, 1941.

Only hours after the invasion, the then prime minister Field Marshal Phibunsongkhram, ordered the cessation of resistance against the Japanese.

On December 21, 1941, a military alliance with Japan was signed and Thailand declared war on Britain and the United States. The Thai ambassador to the United States, Mom Rajawongse Seni Pramoj did not deliver his copy of the declaration of war, so although the British reciprocated by declaring war on Thailand and consequently considered it a hostile country, the United States did not.

following on....

The Free Thai Movement ("Seri Thai") was established during these first few months, parallel Free Thai organisations were also established in the United Kingdom and inside Thailand. Queen Ramphaiphanni was the nominal head of the British-based organisation, and Pridi Phanomyong, the regent, headed its largest contingent, which was operating within the country.

Aided by elements of the military, secret airfields and training camps were established while OSS and Force 136 agents fluidly slipped in and out of the country.

As the war dragged on, the Thai population came to resent the Japanese presence.

In June 1944, Phibun was overthrown in a coup d'état. (Wot...another one )

The new civilian government under Khuang Aphaiwong attempted to aid the resistance while at the same time maintaining cordial relations with the Japanese. A

fter the war, U.S. influence prevented Thailand from being treated as an Axis country, but the British demanded three million tons of rice as reparations and the return of areas annexed from the colony of Malaya during the war.

Thailand also returned the portions of British Burma and French Indochina that had been annexed. Phibun and a number of his associates were put on trial on charges of having committed war crimes and of collaborating with the Axis powers.

However, the charges were dropped due to intense public pressure. Public opinion was favourable to Phibun, since he was thought to have done his best to protect Thai interests.

[dumbnewbie]

Would love to see a map of areas annexed by Thailand while aligned with Japan. I know the French took a lot of Thai territory prior to this (all of Laos and Cambodia?) and I wouldn't be surprised if the Brits took Thai land to add to Burma and Malaya. So probably Thailand was just reclaiming its own territory.

[Harcourt]

Would love to see a map of areas annexed by Thailand while aligned with Japan. I know the French took a lot of Thai territory prior to this (all of Laos and Cambodia?) and I wouldn't be surprised if the Brits took Thai land to add to Burma and Malaya. So probably Thailand was just reclaiming its own territory.

I've seen a map of Thailand as it was in 1890's.... I recall noting that large tracts of present-day Cambodia and Laos did not exist then.

[oldsparrow]

Last year President George W. Bush made his farewell visit ti Thailand, and in his speech at Bitec Bang Na he stated that America celebrates a 75 year friendship with Thailand. Now if this is true, how was Great Britain And the United States at war with Thailand 60 years ago? Barry

Both the US and UK bombed Thailand all during the war. They didn't do much damage but I assume it made them feel better. A Thai pilot even shot down one American plane. He was also flying an American plane. War is like that. The US got over the war feeling sooner than the Brits but that was because of the problems caused in Burma and the Shan states by the Thais. Before the war the UK was Thailand's largest customer. After the war the US replaced the UK and today is still Thailands largest customer. I think this fact is the reason no one in the US or Thailand likes to talk about a history that might embarrass some people. Around 1860 Thailand did offer offer Abraham Lincoln an elephant but he turned it down informing Thailand that America used steam power instead of elephants but he did appreciate the gesture.

There were around 2,000 casualties from the bombing. The Ruam-katanyu Foundation that collect dead body from the road was inspired from the period.

Thank for information of dog fighting. My grand dad was in the RT Air Force but he never mention the incident. Anyway, my grand mom told me that one Farang plane crash near her house on the Thonburi side. It might be hit by flak and drifted from the RAMA1 bridge/power plant area that got bombed many times.

May be to save the face, some said "Think again, America is too cold for our elephant."

[oldsparrow]

Would love to see a map of areas annexed by Thailand while aligned with Japan. I know the French took a lot of Thai territory prior to this (all of Laos and Cambodia?) and I wouldn't be surprised if the Brits took Thai land to add to Burma and Malaya. So probably Thailand was just reclaiming its own territory.

I've seen a map of Thailand as it was in 1890's.... I recall noting that large tracts of present-day Cambodia and Laos did not exist then.

http://www.crma.ac.th/cadet/training%20man...%e8%20%c3.1.JPG

Map of TL 1782 until 1851 when we gradually lost the territories to the West. During the WWII we took back only some lost from the latest "treaties".

[robblok]

Yes sir ! one Brit bomb barely missed my mom. (not joking)

4 hours !! Wow !! the Jap were better then, we were able to resist them for just 2 hours. (not joking also)

OK, the red devils had enjoyed Singha for 3 hours 45 minutes first then beat us in a quarter. So it became tradition for the Brit who landed at Don Muang, "Hit the dirt, grab the beer, !"

Don't feel bad about that, the Dutch did not resist the Germans that long either. We held out 5 days only partly because they threatened to bomb our cities if we did not surrender. If the enemy is really superior why fight till death ?.

But in our history we acknowledge that we lost we don't see it as a problem. The enemy had more soldiers and was way ahead of us in technology.

[chiangmaikelly]

I asked a friend about what happened during WWII and this is what I got back, can't be sure though:

"Little known fact however, is that the Thais actually fought the French in the early days of the war, and did so in Vietnam at the behest of the Japanese. The Japanese didn't want to fight a colonial power directly, as WWII proper hadn't yet begun, so the Japanese asked the Thais to do so as their proxy - or be invaded. That way it looked like a 'South East Asian internal affair' rather than something bigger. Similar political sleight of hand / technicality / excuse they used when they invaded China. The Thais heavily outnumbered the French in terms of men, tanks, and aircraft - in fact, the Thai's had just purchased the Martin B10 bomber (very early precursor of the B17) which was considered to be the most modern of its kind at the time, and also had the Curtiss P36 Hawk as well. The French had a few outdated French fighters and were shot out of the skis. So, when WWII ended, the now victorious former colonial powers returned to Asia and reminded the Thais that they hadn't been completely 'neutral' during the war - putting the pressure on them to allow bases. The Thais obliged as they had been caught with their pants down and could do little else or face the anger of the Allies."

Hardly a little known fact. The Franco Thai war was before WW 2. The Thai government built the Victory Monument in Bangkok to celebrate the victory of the Franco Thai war. The Thais were alone in fighting the French. The Japanese only came in afterwards settle the conflict diplomatically with a Thai bias. The Thais were not neutral during WW2 they were a combatant on the Axis side. The Thais and the French were evenly matched during the Franco Thai war with the Thais having an advantage in tanks and aircraft and the French in naval units. The war was a draw until the Japanese negotiated a truce.

[GrahamF]

I asked a friend about what happened during WWII and this is what I got back, can't be sure though:

"Little known fact however, is that the Thais actually fought the French in the early days of the war, and did so in Vietnam at the behest of the Japanese. The Japanese didn't want to fight a colonial power directly, as WWII proper hadn't yet begun, so the Japanese asked the Thais to do so as their proxy - or be invaded. That way it looked like a 'South East Asian internal affair' rather than something bigger. Similar political sleight of hand / technicality / excuse they used when they invaded China. The Thais heavily outnumbered the French in terms of men, tanks, and aircraft - in fact, the Thai's had just purchased the Martin B10 bomber (very early precursor of the B17) which was considered to be the most modern of its kind at the time, and also had the Curtiss P36 Hawk as well. The French had a few outdated French fighters and were shot out of the skis. So, when WWII ended, the now victorious former colonial powers returned to Asia and reminded the Thais that they hadn't been completely 'neutral' during the war - putting the pressure on them to allow bases. The Thais obliged as they had been caught with their pants down and could do little else or face the anger of the Allies."

Hardly a little known fact. The Franco Thai war was before WW 2. The Thai government built the Victory Monument in Bangkok to celebrate the victory of the Franco Thai war. The Thais were alone in fighting the French. The Japanese only came in afterwards settle the conflict diplomatically with a Thai bias. The Thais were not neutral during WW2 they were a combatant on the Axis side. The Thais and the French were evenly matched during the Franco Thai war with the Thais having an advantage in tanks and aircraft and the French in naval units. The war was a draw until the Japanese negotiated a truce.

Never said the Thais were neutral and yes the Thais were alone in fighting the French, just like the Japanese wanted it to look.

[oldsparrow]

Yes sir ! one Brit bomb barely missed my mom. (not joking) 4 hours !! Wow !! the Jap were better then, we were able to resist them for just 2 hours. (not joking also) OK, the red devils had enjoyed Singha for 3 hours 45 minutes first then beat us in a quarter. So it became tradition for the Brit who landed at Don Muang, "Hit the dirt, grab the beer, !"

Don't feel bad about that, the Dutch did not resist the Germans that long either. We held out 5 days only partly because they threatened to bomb our cities if we did not surrender. If the enemy is really superior why fight till death ?. But in our history we acknowledge that we lost we don't see it as a problem. The enemy had more soldiers and was way ahead of us in technology.

The Thai gov. wanted to surrender/cooperate with wohoever comes in great forces. The J. landed in Prajuabkirikhan Province, the troop shot at the foreign force who appeared from the horizon. Considering the communication system from there - BKK - The PM - the troop there, surrender order after few hours was amazing.

The J. should tell us first. But well, may be they had good communication with the J. envoy in BKK. While the J. failed to told the US. of Pearl, may be the J. successfully told us few minutes before the attack. But the surrender couldn't reach all border forces in time or the gov. close one eyes for the brief resist can be used as excused in joining the J. in case of allies' victory.

As you know, many things in TL are not what they look like.

[oldsparrow]

You can't dig up all archieves and document keeping i not the priority. So, in TL there are many stories without document reference. You just believe them if you want to or you know the tellers. So it goes:

1. There was a Free Thai (it doesn't say from US or UK) who parachuted into TL and simply walked into his house in BKK. The folks were really happy to see the son they sent to study oversea many years ago. They all went to have a party in Hoi Tien Lao Restaurant in Yaowarat (China town)

2. THe J. knew a lot about the free Thai activities but didnt do anything. After the defeat of J. he presented all the photo, evidence and other finding to the Thai gov.

Anyway there was no bad feeling toward the J. commander in TL general. After the war he still visited TL many times.

[chiangmaikelly]

However as we ALL know the US did not declare war on Thailand......good old Seni....

The US declared war on Thailand on Feb. 5, 1942

[dondraper]

Its kinda funny but if Thailand had been conquered the standard of living would probably be much higher now.

Burma, India, Laos, Cambodia, Philippines were conquered but the standard of living is lower.

Japan wasn't conquered and the standard of living is higher...

rofl. nice try.

[buffcoat]

It is said that Thailand has never been conquered by any country in its whole history, but a Thai history student told me that it has, twice in the Ayutthaya perioed. I wonder Anyone wants to confirm the truth

One problem is which Thailand? Historically the area we now see as Thailand was split into differing kingdoms and their respective territories changed significantly over time before being absorbed into the state we now call Thailand.

Wars were fought with all neighbouring states Burmese,Mon, Shan, Chinese, Lao, Khmer, Annam (Vietnam),Patani and various 'Malay' sultanates.

Certainly Ayuthiya was burnt by the Burmese in one of their periods of ascendency but there was no occupation as such. However during this period the removal of populations was a war aim and significant numbers of people were stolen and resettled in the lands of the victors.

Before the colonial period Thailand was larger than it is now as the French took Thai provinces to the East of the Mekong in what is now Laos and the British took the Shan states in the North to add to Burma and I believe some more land in the deep South to add to Malaya.

The Japanese invasion in WWII was not possible to resist militarily although it is worth noting that Thai military units that did not receive the order to allow the landings did fight and continued to do so until the orders were received.

You can draw a parallel here with the smaller European countries who had no help to hand and had to surrender to the Nazi's, Denmark would be a fair equivalent.

The Thai's did recover the lost territory from the French and British during the war but the Allies made them hand it back as the price of peace.

Technically Thailand was not occupied by the Japanese as they retained their own Govt. and armed forces but very significant japanese forces were present and policy was directed by the Japanese. Arguably Thailand was treated better than other countries in the Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere but thousands of Thais died in the construction camps along with Allied POW's.

[dumbnewbie]

...or the gov. closed one eye so the brief resistance could be used as an excuse in joining the Japanese in case of allies' victory.

Very clever - I bet this is what happened. The Thai government is clever like that.

As you know, many things in TL are not what they look like.

Not just in Thailand - in the whole world so many things are not what they look like.

[dumbnewbie]

Its kinda funny but if Thailand had been conquered the standard of living would probably be much higher now.

Burma, India, Laos, Cambodia, Philippines were conquered but the standard of living is lower.

Japan wasn't conquered and the standard of living is higher...

rofl. nice try.

I thought he made a good point - what was wrong with it? Maybe you could clarify your original point, because I'm not sure what you meant. Almost every country that was colonized is still a third world hel_l-hole. Look at Africa, Latin America & the Caribbean, Middle East, South Asia, most of Southeast Asia, etc.

Japan is the only non-Western country that truly became first-world, and it was not colonized. Turkey, Iran and Thailand were not colonized, and they turned out much better than their neighbors (but not nearly as well as Japan. In Iran's case you could argue this was due to repeated interference by the British, Russians and Americans - so not colonialism, but almost.)

The number of countries that were colonized and managed to turn out well can be counted on one hand... Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan & South Korea. I'm not going to count the oil-states like Brunei, Kuwait, etc. and I would also put settlement colonies like the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand in a different category.

Now, if you're arguing that third-world countries would be much better off today if colonialism had never ended, then I would probably agree with you. I think if WWI and WWII never happened, colonialism would never have ended, the cold war wouldn't have happened, and the whole world would be hugely better off. Is that what you were trying to say?

Edited August 18, 2009 by dumbnewbie

[sassienie]

I suspect sassienie got confused and meant the current PM, Gordon Brown.

Yes I did.

Guess I`ve been in Thailand too long.