Sunday Redshirt Rally Postponed

[Rumfoord]

Berlusconi didn't order the murder of 3000 people, so he does not deserve to be compared with Thaksin.

thaksin didn't order the murder of 3000 people.

why telling BS?

[animatic]

Is Thailand still advertising itself as a democracy? What a joke. But the idea that the cronies who run Thailand have anything to do with democratic rule has always been laughable.

Agreed, it isn't a real democracy here. However, surrendering to a red mob who want to install a latter day Thai Mussolini is another step in the wrong direction.

Leaving the issue of violent demostration out of it, a red shirt would say that Thaksin, the most popular politician in Thailand ever, was removed from office in a coup which was justified by extensive street protests by the yellow shirts and the resulting national instability.

Following the interim appointed military government's year in office, those representing Thaksin were again overwhelmingly voted into office but were not allowed to govern. The democratically elected PM was removed from office for wielding a spatula on TV, which could be called a bit of a stitch-up. There then followed an extraodinary shift in the balance of power when a pro-Thaksin faction crossed the floor to the Democrats who then headed a new coalition government.

If you were a red shirt. one of a huge majority of ordinary poor people who want a government that will have regards to its interests, would you not now be raging mad? Would you not want to demonstrate on the streets? Would you not feel that democracy had been denied to you and that doing what the yellow shorts did before you and doing it better is your only way out.

How sad that Thai politics has come down to a personality cult rather than a debate about contending issues. How ironic that the champion of the poor is one such as Thaksin. How sad that the politician with the strong democratic mandate is not Abhisit.

It's all so very, very sad.

If there's a lesson it's perhaps that (like regime change in Iraq), a coup achieves nothing except increasing strife.

Where can it all go from here?

Andrew

Andrew you seem to be missing a few of the pieces.

Samak had a 'Talking While Cooking' Show and he talked politics.

The company paid him to say what he wanted WHILE cooking.

Since as PM he was also able to fine or fire the TV stations and stop

their making money as he wished, this was clear and obvious conflict of interest.

He was warned BY HIS OWN LAWYERS not to continue this job,his ego said ignore them.

Then Samak lied in court. This is not, nor ever was, about cooking on TV.

Let's see PPP cheated vs very clear rules,

obviously not secure in the overwhelming majority they trumpeted.

Why cheat if you have such a grand majority in the bag?

Bye bye PPP, just like TRT, same mistakes round two.

"Extraordinary shift in power."

Righty O, like coalitions don't change with the wind in Thailand historically?

So why and when did Newin switch?

After meeting Thaksin Potjamin and Chalerm in Hong Kong for a dinner where the divorce was announced.

Obviously Chalerm was crowing about his increased prospects,

and Ms T. was clearly distancing herself from Dr. T. Newin read the tea leaves.

Being under Thakysin in office was one thing being under Chalerm and no cash... anathema.

When Newin left his other party with his people to join TRT he was hailed as a great statesman,

but leaving PTP, the 3rd string DREGS of TRT, he is suddenly a reviled traitor.

Compared to Banharn and Snoh this guy stays the course more than most.

Democracy denied... huh?

Which segment of Issan does not have a MP representing it that they voted in?

Just because most of theirs are utterly ineffectual is THEIR fault the voted for them...

Buri Ram has people they voted for acting effectively for their district.

As I said in another thread; Buri Ram is getting services, Newin did the best for his district,

and PTP areas are getting more LIPservices.

Not defending Newin here, just making comparisons.

Both have MP's voted for by their constituancies.

But no longer hold the PM chair and form the cabinet.

But represented none the less, by MP's they placed

in office WITH THEIR FRANCHISED RIGHTS.

How sad that the only one THOUGH, by some, to be a champion of the poor is Thaklsin,

when Abhist HAS done more in 6 months to benefit children and education,

that PPP and PTP combine in all their time.

I have asked this before:

What has PPP, PTP EVER done to help the people,

they do castigate the Dems, and give no alternative suggestions whatsoever,

and try and bring Thaksin and the banned TRT PPP Pols back.

Please tell me what legislation they put forward, let alone passed.

No one has EVER answered.

Meanwhile the kids get better free milk and more education opportunities today.

And companies are starting to re-hire and projects are starting up again.

Oh and red leaders should FULLY expect that the ISA will be re-applied Sept 5th prior to their next action.

On Songkran they crossed the rubicon, and there will be no free lunch and mayhem for them between now

and Thaksin's financial court adjudication...

[Jingthing]

Berlusconi didn't order the murder of 3000 people, so he does not deserve to be compared with Thaksin.

thaksin didn't order the murder of 3000 people.

why telling BS?

It happened under his regime and thus has some culpability. You are correct, you won't find evidence that he specifically ordered the murders.

[hammered]

Berlusconi didn't order the murder of 3000 people, so he does not deserve to be compared with Thaksin.

thaksin didn't order the murder of 3000 people.

why telling BS?

HRW have the drug war number at closer to 2500. However, there were a number down south too.

Edited to add: head of government is always held responsible for government policies especially relating to deaths. Taylor, Milosevic etc.

Edited August 29, 2009 by hammered

[BlueSmurf]

Is Thailand still advertising itself as a democracy? What a joke. But the idea that the cronies who run Thailand have anything to do with democratic rule has always been laughable.

Agreed, it isn't a real democracy here. However, surrendering to a red mob who want to install a latter day Thai Mussolini is another step in the wrong direction.

A Thai Mussolini?

No, of course not.

Mr. T. is the Thai equivalent of Berlusconi, more or less.

Or the other way around.

Both are stinking rich and think they are above the law.

Both have not a democratic microbe in them, only the wish for unchecked power.

Both will do nearly anything to hold on to that power, or to get it (back).

Where were you when Toxin was in power? Why do you think he has been banned from entering most !st world countrys in the world? Berlusconi is a pussy compared to what Toxin had been up to! I will leave it to others to inform you how his dictatership panned out..

[animatic]

Well, that is 26 posts with a definite slant against the pro-democracy movement who cancelled their rally this week-end, or rather, moved it to next weekend.

Now aren't y'all thankful there is a lonely voice in this wilderness offering an alternative POV. How boring without it, right?

Here goes.

This is all about politics I am sure you will be very surprised to hear.

Not about affinity clothing colors, but about politics.

This is about A: people who want to do away with one-person-one-vote elections and B: those who dont.

The 'A' group are the ones with all the power, and they threatened the 'B' people.

The 'B' people very cleverly played the 'A' people by rescheduling this rally, because of threats.

This clearly positioned the threateners, the 'A' people, as being the "bullies of the class". To add insult to injury, these bullies also represent a minority.

Nobody likes a bully. This just adds to the grievances of Democracy being set upon.

Smart move. And all they needed to do was delay by a week.

The 26 posts above need to think a wee bit deeper.

I know the knee-jerk reaction will be to divert into an anti-Thaksin tirade by many, but he is not my issue or concern - one-person-one-vote electoral democracy is, and regardless how you want to re-direct the conversation - one side of the political divide wants an appointive system, the other one doesn't. Democracy is the issue folks. The anti-democracy folks just threatened the pro-democracy people out of having a rally this weekend.....and that strengthens their resolve .

Brilliant political move to re-schedule in the face of a 'bully' instead of just proceeding as they could have.

It is purely tactical, not brilliantly strategic.

The end goal hasn't changed, just the ability to make progress is stiffled.

But no doubt the ISA will follow them to Sept 5th, and 13th and right through The Ides of October too.

Democracy:

There is not one person in Thailand not represented in the legislature by someone that they did not vote for.

Some just don't hold the PM and cabinet coalition memberships.

Because THEIR elected MP's couldn't make the deal to hold it together.

Political ineptness is not a valid reason for social anarchy and violence.

Edited August 29, 2009 by animatic

[firestar]

Maybe if as soon as they protest the Red Shirts weren't met by government faction sponsored "Blue shirts" or fake "Sala daeng Residents" armed with talkie walkies, metal bars and guns that charge at them it wouldn't degenerate into violence.

That's my neighborhood, and I saw it first-hand. When you close off a huge city's largest traffic hub, isolate residents, and close down businesses in the area for 4 days, I think it's justified for the police or the army to do something about it. I think we all wish they had done something about it sooner.

I talked to a city bus driver who was hijacked, I saw how they barricaded my entire main street and Victory Circle, destroyed public property, set fire to the buses. Then when law enforcement showed up, they somehow had gas bombs and molotov cocktails ready to go. You do the math, does it sound like a peaceful demonstration?

Didn't the yellow shirts close THE WHOLE COUNTRY for much longer?

What kind of violence would we have seen if the army tried to remove them from goverment House or Suvarnabhumi airport? Do you not think they also had gas bombs and molotov cocktails ready?

Easy to stay "peaceful" when the army is on your side, cheering you on.

[animatic]

Is Thailand still advertising itself as a democracy? What a joke. But the idea that the cronies who run Thailand have anything to do with democratic rule has always been laughable.

Agreed, it isn't a real democracy here. However, surrendering to a red mob who want to install a latter day Thai Mussolini is another step in the wrong direction.

A Thai Mussolini?

No, of course not.

Mr. T. is the Thai equivalent of Berlusconi, more or less.

Or the other way around.

Both are stinking rich and think they are above the law.

Both have not a democratic microbe in them, only the wish for unchecked power.

Both will do nearly anything to hold on to that power, or to get it (back).

Berlusconi didn't order the murder of 3000 people, so he does not deserve to be compared with Thaksin.

Well other than the war against the Mafia / La Cosa Nostra in which quite a few have died.

And the parallel is somewhat similar because the drug dealers and Mafia are both organized crime syndicates.

Granted many Mafia lieutenants and soldiers, not killed in gun battles they started, DID go on trial.

[hammered]

Maybe if as soon as they protest the Red Shirts weren't met by government faction sponsored "Blue shirts" or fake "Sala daeng Residents" armed with talkie walkies, metal bars and guns that charge at them it wouldn't degenerate into violence.

That's my neighborhood, and I saw it first-hand. When you close off a huge city's largest traffic hub, isolate residents, and close down businesses in the area for 4 days, I think it's justified for the police or the army to do something about it. I think we all wish they had done something about it sooner.

I talked to a city bus driver who was hijacked, I saw how they barricaded my entire main street and Victory Circle, destroyed public property, set fire to the buses. Then when law enforcement showed up, they somehow had gas bombs and molotov cocktails ready to go. You do the math, does it sound like a peaceful demonstration?

Didn't the yellow shirts close THE WHOLE COUNTRY for much longer?

What kind of violence would we have seen if the army tried to remove them from goverment House or Suvarnabhumi airport? Do you not think they also had gas bombs and molotov cocktails ready?

Easy to stay "peaceful" when the army is on your side, cheering you on.

You may want to do a little research into who Sondhi claims tried to kill him if you think th emilitary and the PAD are good buddies.

By the way, how does what the yellows do excuse red violence? Two wrongs dont make a right. Surely both groups deserve to be condemned for their excesses.

[csroland]

Is Thailand still advertising itself as a democracy? What a joke. But the idea that the cronies who run Thailand have anything to do with democratic rule has always been laughable.

Agreed, it isn't a real democracy here. However, surrendering to a red mob who want to install a latter day Thai Mussolini is another step in the wrong direction.

There has never been a real democracy, what we call as democracy. The most liberal times are over. Let's look into the future. The hope never dies.

[NedKelly]

So mr jingthing you advocate closing airports as democratic? The yellows are as bad as anyone and in a way worse as they represent such a minority. At least the rural poor were benefiting from some development under Taksin and eventually will hopefully be able to pay for the education so severely lacking for them. Lets wait and see what the current leadership is capable of and willing to do for the masses.....it remains to be seen. Until then all power to the reds and good on them for acting. Who wouldn't be angry?

[animatic]

Maybe if as soon as they protest the Red Shirts weren't met by government faction sponsored "Blue shirts" or fake "Sala daeng Residents" armed with talkie walkies, metal bars and guns that charge at them it wouldn't degenerate into violence.

That's my neighborhood, and I saw it first-hand. When you close off a huge city's largest traffic hub, isolate residents, and close down businesses in the area for 4 days, I think it's justified for the police or the army to do something about it. I think we all wish they had done something about it sooner.

I talked to a city bus driver who was hijacked, I saw how they barricaded my entire main street and Victory Circle, destroyed public property, set fire to the buses. Then when law enforcement showed up, they somehow had gas bombs and molotov cocktails ready to go. You do the math, does it sound like a peaceful demonstration?

Didn't the yellow shirts close THE WHOLE COUNTRY for much longer?

What kind of violence would we have seen if the army tried to remove them from goverment House or Suvarnabhumi airport? Do you not think they also had gas bombs and molotov cocktails ready?

Easy to stay "peaceful" when the army is on your side, cheering you on.

No PAD closed the TWO airports and nothing else at that time.

All buses trains, and borders were open and people left at will.

They just couldn't FLY from two airports.

But Phuket, Utapao, Samui and Chaingmai International Airports were also open.

Oh, you mean violence like Gen. Sae Dangs training Reds to throw grenades in public parks,

just days before grenades started falling on unarmed, sleeping, PAD grannies and others at Gov. House?

Which not coincidentally drove PAD out, but to a bigger safer target.. oops another violent Red miscalculation.

When did we see PAD throwing Molotov cocktails?

We've seen many Reds with them in hand.

Easy to stay peaceful all the time, if your intention is PEACE.

Easy to just TALK, if your face isn't being smashed for doing it.

[animatic]

Eventually, and rightfully, PAD's day in court will come, but that is irrelevant to THIS thread.

[Rumfoord]

Berlusconi didn't order the murder of 3000 people, so he does not deserve to be compared with Thaksin.

thaksin didn't order the murder of 3000 people.

why telling BS?

It happened under his regime and thus has some culpability. You are correct, you won't find evidence that he specifically ordered the murders.

and how about to verify at least the number of murder 3000 people murdered. guess that is the related to the war on drugs death toll hoax.

BS. often repeated, sometimes corrected but repeated again. so its BS and lies.

[firestar]

You may want to do a little research into who Sondhi claims tried to kill him if you think th emilitary and the PAD are good buddies.

By the way, how does what the yellows do excuse red violence? Two wrongs dont make a right. Surely both groups deserve to be condemned for their excesses.

Both groups should be condemned. We agree.

Which is why the moral high ground displayed by a government whose Foreign Minister said on the record that the occupation of Suvarnabhumi was "good fun" is laughable.

[h90]

Berlusconi didn't order the murder of 3000 people, so he does not deserve to be compared with Thaksin.

thaksin didn't order the murder of 3000 people.

why telling BS?

It was Thaksins "War Against Drugs" and he was always proud of it.

All the human right organizations are telling the same, seems you are the only one who don't know about it.

[hammered]

You may want to do a little research into who Sondhi claims tried to kill him if you think th emilitary and the PAD are good buddies.

By the way, how does what the yellows do excuse red violence? Two wrongs dont make a right. Surely both groups deserve to be condemned for their excesses.

Both groups should be condemned. We agree.

Which is why the moral high ground displayed by a government whose Foreign Minister said on the record that the occupation of Suvarnabhumi was "good fun" is laughable.

methinks moral highground and any poltician taking it is laughable;)

[h90]

Berlusconi didn't order the murder of 3000 people, so he does not deserve to be compared with Thaksin.

thaksin didn't order the murder of 3000 people.

why telling BS?

HRW have the drug war number at closer to 2500. However, there were a number down south too.

Edited to add: head of government is always held responsible for government policies especially relating to deaths. Taylor, Milosevic etc.

Latest I read were 28?? with an estimate of 50 % who didn't had anything to do with drugs.

[Jingthing]

So mr jingthing you advocate closing airports as democratic? The yellows are as bad as anyone and in a way worse as they represent such a minority. At least the rural poor were benefiting from some development under Taksin and eventually will hopefully be able to pay for the education so severely lacking for them. Lets wait and see what the current leadership is capable of and willing to do for the masses.....it remains to be seen. Until then all power to the reds and good on them for acting. Who wouldn't be angry?

I have said several times here that I am not pro yellow so no I did not support closing airports. Got it now? It is really really annoying to hear over and over again from red sympathizers that being anti-Thaksin means you are necessarily pro yellow. That is a game many of us aren't playing.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Jingthing

[h90]

So mr jingthing you advocate closing airports as democratic? The yellows are as bad as anyone and in a way worse as they represent such a minority. At least the rural poor were benefiting from some development under Taksin and eventually will hopefully be able to pay for the education so severely lacking for them. Lets wait and see what the current leadership is capable of and willing to do for the masses.....it remains to be seen. Until then all power to the reds and good on them for acting. Who wouldn't be angry?

For example the new education policy will help the poor, never heard of it?

[ianh68]

Well, that is 26 posts with a definite slant against the pro-democracy movement who cancelled their rally this week-end, or rather, moved it to next weekend.

Now aren't y'all thankful there is a lonely voice in this wilderness offering an alternative POV. How boring without it, right?

Here goes.

This is all about politics I am sure you will be very surprised to hear.

Not about affinity clothing colors, but about politics.

This is about A: people who want to do away with one-person-one-vote elections and B: those who dont.

The 'A' group are the ones with all the power, and they threatened the 'B' people.

The 'B' people very cleverly played the 'A' people by rescheduling this rally, because of threats.

This clearly positioned the threateners, the 'A' people, as being the "bullies of the class". To add insult to injury, these bullies also represent a minority.

Nobody likes a bully. This just adds to the grievances of Democracy being set upon.

Smart move. And all they needed to do was delay by a week.

The 26 posts above need to think a wee bit deeper.

I know the knee-jerk reaction will be to divert into an anti-Thaksin tirade by many, but he is not my issue or concern - one-person-one-vote electoral democracy is, and regardless how you want to re-direct the conversation - one side of the political divide wants an appointive system, the other one doesn't. Democracy is the issue folks. The anti-democracy folks just threatened the pro-democracy people out of having a rally this weekend.....and that strengthens their resolve .

Brilliant political move to re-schedule in the face of a 'bully' instead of just proceeding as they could have.

Thank God for this post. I was beginning to wonder about my fellow expats et al. Think a bit deeper. Right on.

Rather than wade into the politics I'd just like to take a moment to reflect on the anti-red sentiment among so many expats. For what it's worth here is a theory, colour coded for simplicity.

Yellows represent the status quo. The status quo is very comfortable for the elite, and that includes well off expats in plush condos with maids, drivers etc etc.

The reds, however amorphous, represent the future, and the future in this country will be more egalitarian than the present.

The result will be increased opportunity for those that currently provide all the cheap services, including the sex trade, for all the privileged in Bangkok. They will not tolerate their exploitation for ever and will move on to improve their lot elsewhere.

The writing is on the wall and I contend that many expats feel their comfort zone is being threatened by the reds.

[aussimike]

Is Thailand still advertising itself as a democracy? What a joke. But the idea that the cronies who run Thailand have anything to do with democratic rule has always been laughable.

Agreed, it isn't a real democracy here. However, surrendering to a red mob who want to install a latter day Thai Mussolini is another step in the wrong direction.

spoken like a true dyed yellow shirt supporter-- latter day Mussolini - really - just wonder who u are refering to - best get back on the baht bus ole son -

[hammered]

Berlusconi didn't order the murder of 3000 people, so he does not deserve to be compared with Thaksin.

thaksin didn't order the murder of 3000 people.

why telling BS?

HRW have the drug war number at closer to 2500. However, there were a number down south too.

Edited to add: head of government is always held responsible for government policies especially relating to deaths. Taylor, Milosevic etc.

Latest I read were 28?? with an estimate of 50 % who didn't had anything to do with drugs.

Whatever the number it is not good.

[barry]

can't anyone in this country be punctual?

[teddy_bare]

Mind you red shirt peaceful demonstration by burning buses, beating up people in side streets and placing gas cylinders with canisters of fuel in the middle of streets, why not just send the snipers, let them hold their rally and dispose of the problem with a lesson in anti terrorism by qualified marksmen! And like the stupidity of the British Army, wearing red won't show the blood when they get shot! That'll work!

Pesky redcoats they conqueror most of the world, how stupid of them

[tropo]

They could have had a PEACEFUL rally.

What good is a peaceful rally? When have peaceful rallies achieved anything, anywhere? Even the yellow shirts know that they only way to affect change is by creating chaos.

[animatic]

Well, that is 26 posts with a definite slant against the pro-democracy movement who cancelled their rally this week-end, or rather, moved it to next weekend.

Now aren't y'all thankful there is a lonely voice in this wilderness offering an alternative POV. How boring without it, right?

Here goes.

This is all about politics I am sure you will be very surprised to hear.

Not about affinity clothing colors, but about politics.

This is about A: people who want to do away with one-person-one-vote elections and B: those who dont.

The 'A' group are the ones with all the power, and they threatened the 'B' people.

The 'B' people very cleverly played the 'A' people by rescheduling this rally, because of threats.

This clearly positioned the threateners, the 'A' people, as being the "bullies of the class". To add insult to injury, these bullies also represent a minority.

Nobody likes a bully. This just adds to the grievances of Democracy being set upon.

Smart move. And all they needed to do was delay by a week.

The 26 posts above need to think a wee bit deeper.

I know the knee-jerk reaction will be to divert into an anti-Thaksin tirade by many, but he is not my issue or concern - one-person-one-vote electoral democracy is, and regardless how you want to re-direct the conversation - one side of the political divide wants an appointive system, the other one doesn't. Democracy is the issue folks. The anti-democracy folks just threatened the pro-democracy people out of having a rally this weekend.....and that strengthens their resolve .

Brilliant political move to re-schedule in the face of a 'bully' instead of just proceeding as they could have.

Thank God for this post. I was beginning to wonder about my fellow expats et al. Think a bit deeper. Right on.

Rather than wade into the politics I'd just like to take a moment to reflect on the anti-red sentiment among so many expats. For what it's worth here is a theory, colour coded for simplicity.

Yellows represent the status quo. The status quo is very comfortable for the elite, and that includes well off expats in plush condos with maids, drivers etc etc.

The reds, however amorphous, represent the future, and the future in this country will be more egalitarian than the present.

The result will be increased opportunity for those that currently provide all the cheap services, including the sex trade, for all the privileged in Bangkok. They will not tolerate their exploitation for ever and will move on to improve their lot elsewhere.

The writing is on the wall and I contend that many expats feel their comfort zone is being threatened by the reds.

It is inevitable that change will come. How fast and how violently is the main issue.

Most here are 100% for improving the lot of the poor in Thailand,

And don't fear an increase in services costs and lack of bargirls even less.

But a great number are not threatened by that, but by Thaksin's vengfulness,

and the random chance that a Red Revolution would cause if Thaksin gets his ways.

Historically violent upheavals cause more pain for the POOR in medium term

than effective improvement in their lives. If the reds gain control it will NOT be good for

the average Somchai and wife. Accelerated change IS called for,

but the Reds and PTP are NOT the right choice for doing this....

It's a simple equation, competence coupled with opportunity can make effective changes.

Incompetence coupled with vengeful paternalist fascism will only breed long term disorder,

and increased hatred.

[monkfish]

Are gathering of crowds allowed under the ISA?

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/07/05...cs_30039437.php

http://www.fidh.org/The-newly-adopted-Internal

[john b good]

Not allowed to protest? They were allowed to protest as long as it was civil or orderly. Perhaps that was too much to ask for.

"civil or orderly" are not in the red shirts vocabulary.

They don't want to protest in an orderly fashion. Their agenda is to destroy the country and they are making a fair fist of it too.

[marshbags]

Mind you red shirt peaceful demonstration by burning buses, beating up people in side streets and placing gas cylinders with canisters of fuel in the middle of streets, why not just send the snipers, let them hold their rally and dispose of the problem with a lesson in anti terrorism by qualified marksmen! And like the stupidity of the British Army, wearing red won't show the blood when they get shot! That'll work!

And the British Army have what to do with this.

<deleted>

Another low life comment, maybe unintentional, but non the less low life and very disrespectful.

marshbags

I was really pleased that common sense or whatever had been applied, reading the thread and I come to this.

Always someone steps out of line re fair comment and debate.

Edited August 29, 2009 by marshbags