How Many Of Thailand's Prime Ministers Were/are Of Chinese Decent?

[jerrylee]

Some unrelated thoughts:

I have always thought it was exceedingly clever -- and wrong -- that foreigners (Chinese) "become Thai" then work their way to the top echelons of power and make laws banning foreigners from ownership in Thailand.

As far as I can tell, the Chinese consider the Thai to be a subsidiary Chinese ethnic minority group (which in many ways they are).

Thailand is about the size of a good-sized province of China.

I was waiting for you to chime in here after reading your other topic on comparing living in CHN and TH. I found it quite informative and this topic, too. I recently read about the origin of Taiwan and the Wiki page stated that many mainland Chinese who fled to Taiwan were Hakka. There was also mention of Hakka Chinese migrating south in to present day Thailand.

The original people in Thailand were called Tai. Tai wan. Interesting. There must be quite some genealogical links between the two countries.

.. Just because that Thailand and Taiwan is spelt with a "T" ?

[cdnvic]

I am seriously considering a drink though, thanks. That's what's wonderful about ThaiVisa... you're never really drinking "alone" in your office at noon.

[Hawaiian]

Wonder how many posters read the IRASEC papers about Chinese communities in Southeast Asia as recommended by Effective Anger. I did. Very informative. As mentioned in my earlier post (#53), it contains information that is not usually discussed openly in Thailand. While most of the emphasis was on the history of triads in Hong Kong there were references to works by Thai authors about similar activity in Thailand. There was also mention of not disclosing certain family names as this would most likely offend some well connected people.

Some posters have accused other posters of racism. Maybe true, maybe not. For the record, my mother's father was a Chinese doctor who came to Hawaii accompanying a group of Chinese immigrants recruited to work on the sugar plantations. He met my grandmother and the rest is history.

My point is this. I learn from others. It is my prerogative to agree or not. Disagreeing with someones point of view doesn't mean

resorting to threats and innuendos. Whether someone has 11,000 or 11 posts shouldn't make a difference. Old timers on this forum should lead by good example and not belittle someone because they differ in opinion.

About Irasec; (link provided by the OP):

INVESTIGATING THE GREY AREAS

OF THE CHINESE COMMUNITIES IN SOUTHEAST ASIA

Proceedings of the Symposium organised by IRASEC

at the Hotel Sofitel Silom (Bangkok)

on January 2005, 6th and 7th

I don't know if the report of the Symposium is or was openly discussed in Thailand or not but if the Symposium was held in Bangkok in a 5* Hotel it isn't really a secret also, is it ?

It contains very interesting information about the Chinese communities in SE Asia and therefore in Thailand as well but to be honest, I didn't read all 170 pages because I didn't find the time yet so far. Did you read all of them ?

Also, there are subjects in said report which do not attract my interest.

LaoPo

Who said it was a secret? "Not usually discussed in public," does not infer it is a secret. And yes, I did read everything except most of the references and the general bibliography. Like you, not everything attracted my interest, but I read it anyway.

If you read pages 47-59 by Ratanaporn Dhammakosol and pages 145-146 by Guy Lubeigt you might see how it connects to the original post. You can draw your own conclusions.

When you posted a comparison of the intelligence of mainland Chinese versus their counterparts in Thailand I don't think anyone made an issue of it once you explained what you really meant. I myself took it out of context like the poster that criticized your opinion.

As I mentioned before, I am here to learn, but it's difficult to sort through all the B.S. Enough already!!!

[Hawaiian]

Another thread successfully transformed.

Do you see a pattern?

What pattern?

Maybe after taking your suggestion and having a drink it may all become clearer to me. Hope the wife doesn't think I am starting a new "pattern" by having my first drink of the day at midnight.

[Heng]

Like the OP, mine was clearly just a rhetorical question.

Discuss.

[Moonrakers]

If you are drinking at noon, but as an extension of the night before having not been to bed yet, does it count as drinking early? The question stands whether you be drinking at home, outside or in the office.

[LaoPo]

You didn't wait for my sticky rice addendum, which I'm sure will clear things up. The indigenous Thais should also consume less sticky rice. Folks from Lao, much of the Issan population, and of course the Khmers as well are prodigious consumers of sticky rice. While it's rich in energy, it's slower and slightly more difficult for the body to digest. It makes you feel full quickly, and invariable the greater blood requirement to digest it slows you down. Over generations, I'm convinced that this results in lower IQs and a generally lazy attitude. If you look at (generalization alert... but don't worry, that dashboard light probably burned out in your car a long time ago) the countries in Asia that are generally characterized as more productive: China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, even large belts of the Indian and Malaysian population (thanks to basmati rice no doubt), you'll find sticky rice lacking as a common staple, more of as a dessert item only.

If you want to turn the Thai Chinese tide, again, nutrition is one of the keys. Especially if you see indigenous kids, or even indigenous father's or mother's feeding sticky rice to luk krung offspring... little do they know that they are pretty much sentencing these kids to a life of serfdom in chains. Think about it.

Very good point.

Nutrition, good health and access to various kinds of vegetables, meat, fish, fruits (not just rice...) and the like are extremely important for all people in order to develop their physical and mental growth, meaning an African baby, dying of hunger, is not able to develop it's body nor brains.

Good and proper food/nutrition in the first 12 months of a(ny) life is crucial for the development of ALL senses in the sensory system in life. Meaning the development of: vison - hearing - touch - taste and smell, apart from the development of the rest of the billions of brain cells which number, in fact, vary from human to human and is also depending on gender and age.

Searching for something else I bumped into an interesting link:

Human Height in most countries of the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#...round_the_world

It's interesting (although not a final definition in outcome) to see not only the difference in height between male and female but also the difference in height between various countries.

The results for Thailand are "old" though (1991-1995) and from a study-report about obesity:

http://nceph.anu.edu.au/Thai_Cohort_Study/...U-Newspaper.pdf

Another interesting find is that average height in China developed dramatically, found out in the "...the largest body measurement study ever performed in China." (2008) and about urban people:

"One of the most dramatic statistics from China shows that over the span of a decade (1992-2002) the average height of children (2-18 years old) increased by almost 1.5”, nearly twice as high as the increase among U.S. children."

From: http://www.alvanon.com/news/CHINASCAN.pdf

Conclusion: we do not grow and develop from air and water alone...nutrition is one of the keys, next to education to have and take the opportunity to develop.

LaoPo

[Heng]

You didn't wait for my sticky rice addendum, which I'm sure will clear things up. The indigenous Thais should also consume less sticky rice. Folks from Lao, much of the Issan population, and of course the Khmers as well are prodigious consumers of sticky rice. While it's rich in energy, it's slower and slightly more difficult for the body to digest. It makes you feel full quickly, and invariable the greater blood requirement to digest it slows you down. Over generations, I'm convinced that this results in lower IQs and a generally lazy attitude. If you look at (generalization alert... but don't worry, that dashboard light probably burned out in your car a long time ago) the countries in Asia that are generally characterized as more productive: China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, even large belts of the Indian and Malaysian population (thanks to basmati rice no doubt), you'll find sticky rice lacking as a common staple, more of as a dessert item only.

If you want to turn the Thai Chinese tide, again, nutrition is one of the keys. Especially if you see indigenous kids, or even indigenous father's or mother's feeding sticky rice to luk krung offspring... little do they know that they are pretty much sentencing these kids to a life of serfdom in chains. Think about it.

Very good point.

Nutrition, good health and access to various kinds of vegetables, meat, fish, fruits (not just rice...) and the like are extremely important for all people in order to develop their physical and mental growth, meaning an African baby, dying of hunger, is not able to develop it's body nor brains.

Good and proper food/nutrition in the first 12 months of a(ny) life is crucial for the development of ALL senses in the sensory system in life. Meaning the development of: vison - hearing - touch - taste and smell, apart from the development of the rest of the billions of brain cells which number, in fact, vary from human to human and is also depending on gender and age.

Absolutely, not just in the first 12 months of life, but over one's entire developmental period to age 25, and then less so but still relevant for the rest of your life. I've said this before in other threads,... there doesn't need to be Skulls/Masonic or Chinese Triad type conspiracy.

Simply living and eating better gives you all the advantages you could ever need.

[Heng]

Their selfish voraciousness coupled with superstition-fueled beliefs in hocus pocus will make sure scant few large mammals will survive in the wild.

Forgot to add that no, we mostly use visa and work permit regulations to control the large mammal population.

[EffectiveAnger]

Would it be too much to ask if the moderators could clean up this thread starting with all the 'sarcasm' about food, which has nothing to do with my OP?

People, if you want to get on a soap box about Thai food, you can always start your own thread. You didn't have to hijack this one.

[cdnvic]

Ok, we've had some fun but let's get back on track please. Some off-topic stuff was weeded out.

[oevna]

Somchai Wongsawat

Somchai was born at Amphoe Chawang, Nakhon Si Thammarat Province, a son of Mr Choem (Thai: เจิม) and Mrs Dap (Thai: ดับ) Wongsawat

[He appears to be of Chinese decent and with a surname that starts with “Wong” I can only assume that he has Chinese roots.]

This tendency for Chinese-Thai families to have the prefix "Wong" has interested me in the past also. I initially came to the same conclusion as you: that it might be a way to preserve some semblance of their original Chinese surname (黃 Wong or 王 Wang). However, after looking into it a bit, I am not so sure.

Wongsawat is spelled วงศ์สวัสดิ์ in Thai, and the "Wong" portion of it is a Thai word of Sanskrit origin, วงศ์ vangsha, which in Thai means "clan, family, race, lineage." Thai phonetics render the unwritten vowel between the 'v' and the 'ng' as an 'o' (pronounced like the 'o' in the word "cone," not like the 'o' in the word "stop"), and the final -sha is silenced with -์ mai garan.

Whether or not this particular word was chosen because of its similarity to a Chinese surname, I do not know. But it is worth mention that many Chinese-Thai names also contain (usually as a suffix) the words ตระกูล -trakul "family, lineage, ancestry, blood, clan," or สกุล -sakul "family, blood, tribe, blue blood, nobility; genus." These words all have in common the meaning of a family lineage, a concept that is very important in Chinese culture. I suspect this meaning has more to do with it than the similarity in sound with the name "Wong." It would be interesting, however, to see if there is any correlation between families whose original Chinese surname is Wong or Wang, with families whose name contains the prefix วงศ์ wong-. I haven't done any such investigation, but I tend to doubt it.

It's possible that I stand corrected on this subject.

[LaoPo]

Ok, we've had some fun but let's get back on track please. Some off-topic stuff was weeded out.

I agree to go back on topic and Mea Culpa if I drifted away on the strong current....

Now, if the OP would be so kind as to reveal now, after 8 pages and more than 190 posts, WHAT he meant wit his last words in his opening-message #1, when he was speaking about the # of Thai PM's with Chinese roots/blood* ?:

Why is any of this important? Because it has everything to do with the constant instablity of the country. Who's running this show? As far as I can infer, we have to go back to 1980-1988 when Thailand had a true ethnic Thai as a PM and even after he stepped down (from instablity) he was asked to stay put. Now, he's the head of the Privy Council.

Things are starting to make a whole lot of sense here. I can see the pattern. Anyone else see it too?

It would end repeated questions why the OP didn't give any answers, so far.

* may I point out that the OP didn't even provide a completed answer (only partly) to his own question how many Thai PM's with Chinese roots ruled over Thailand?

If the OP is not willing or able to provide some clear answers I have no other conclusion than that he was trolling and stirring up things by opening this thread.

LaoPo

Edited September 5, 2009 by LaoPo

[Hawaiian]

"Could it be that the OP was a former member...?"

Shouldn't questions about reincarnation be in the Buddhism Form?

Sorry, just couldn't resist.

[brahmburgers]

Interestingly, I just recently did a perusal of Thai PMs on Wikipedia. I did an adjustment on one of the listings. In regard to Mr. Thaksin, I noted that he was 'caretaker PM' in his final term, not full PM as mentioned prior.

It was interesting to note how many PM's got their seats back, even if there were one or two PM's in the interim.

They're all men, or course (not a judgment on their aroma), and nearly all are old while in office; late 60's on up. Abhisit and one other are the only exceptions. During the 1940's there were 9 PM's.

[daifuku1616]

Perhaps the OP should ask what makes a Thai Chinese?

Thai Chinese is a different breed from their overseas brethren. like someone mentioned before, Thai Chinese do not speak Chinese anymore. Their thinking is very Thai. They have forsaken their Chinese roots.

Chinese culture in Thailand has been watered down so much so that even the most important event to the Chinese, Chinese New Year, is nothing more than an excuse to sell fake chinese food in Yaowarat.

Even in Malaysia, where chinese are continuously sidelined, has an official 2 days public holiday recognised by the Malaysian Government.

So what has the succession of Thai Chinese PM been doing all these years?

When are we going to have a public holiday for Chinese New Year?

I am trying to find a pattern here whether these Thai Chinese PM are in fact Chinese or not for they have failed to protect a very important cultural symbol of their Chinese ancestry.

Also, the someone mentioned about Thailand and Taiwan link. Please note that they are spelt very differently in Chinese and carries totally different meaning.

[Heng]

Perhaps the OP should ask what makes a Thai Chinese?

Thai Chinese is a different breed from their overseas brethren. like someone mentioned before, Thai Chinese do not speak Chinese anymore. Their thinking is very Thai. They have forsaken their Chinese roots.

Chinese culture in Thailand has been watered down so much so that even the most important event to the Chinese, Chinese New Year, is nothing more than an excuse to sell fake chinese food in Yaowarat.

There are plenty of Thai Chinese that speak Chinese, although true, not too many here who are fluent in Mandarin... but again, because of the universal language of the written side, it doesn't matter. You don't even have to look at the upper tier gov't levels, in just about any gold shop or pharmacy (and I'm sure plenty of other shops as well) in the city (less so as you move out of town), you can transact in written Chinese and quite often spoken Teochiu, Hokkien, or Hakka. Myself, despite 3 generations of my family not having lived in China, can speak Mandarin, although probably only as well as you might be able to speak Spanish after learning it in school and living in Texas for 8-10 years. In the city, I mean Bangkok... Sampeng, Yaowarat, Pahulraht, much of Thonburi, etc. Basically where the entire country outside of large corporations and SME's source their goods.

Yes, there are plenty of Thai Chinese that are only Chinese genetically, by bloodline as well. That's the problem when you try to generalize about an overseas Chinese population of 50-70 million (8-9 million here) there aren't too many that actually stick beyond physical characteristics. Feel free to try though if it amuses you.

[EffectiveAnger]

Interestingly, I just recently did a perusal of Thai PMs on Wikipedia. I did an adjustment on one of the listings. In regard to Mr. Thaksin, I noted that he was 'caretaker PM' in his final term, not full PM as mentioned prior.

It was interesting to note how many PM's got their seats back, even if there were one or two PM's in the interim.

They're all men, or course (not a judgment on their aroma), and nearly all are old while in office; late 60's on up. Abhisit and one other are the only exceptions. During the 1940's there were 9 PM's.

Interesting and thoughtful observations! They do seem to fit a certain profile:

Military background

Chinese descent

Educated overseas, primarily in Europe

Age 60 and up

Attended Thai Chinese private schools in Thailand ?

Am I missing anything (other than a penchant for rice )?

Notes: Comedians, please try to reserve a stage somewhere and make sure to get paid for it.

Edited September 6, 2009 by EffectiveAnger

[Lite Beer]

A post containing a much altered quote from another member has been deleted. Please read the rule.

29. To not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes, added emoticons, or altered wording.

[EffectiveAnger]

Perhaps the OP should ask what makes a Thai Chinese?

Thai Chinese is a different breed from their overseas brethren. like someone mentioned before, Thai Chinese do not speak Chinese anymore. Their thinking is very Thai. They have forsaken their Chinese roots.

Chinese culture in Thailand has been watered down so much so that even the most important event to the Chinese, Chinese New Year, is nothing more than an excuse to sell fake chinese food in Yaowarat.

There are plenty of Thai Chinese that speak Chinese, although true, not too many here who are fluent in Mandarin... but again, because of the universal language of the written side, it doesn't matter. You don't even have to look at the upper tier gov't levels, in just about any gold shop or pharmacy (and I'm sure plenty of other shops as well) in the city (less so as you move out of town), you can transact in written Chinese and quite often spoken Teochiu, Hokkien, or Hakka. Myself, despite 3 generations of my family not having lived in China, can speak Mandarin, although probably only as well as you might be able to speak Spanish after learning it in school and living in Texas for 8-10 years. In the city, I mean Bangkok... Sampeng, Yaowarat, Pahulraht, much of Thonburi, etc. Basically where the entire country outside of large corporations and SME's source their goods.

Yes, there are plenty of Thai Chinese that are only Chinese genetically, by bloodline as well. That's the problem when you try to generalize about an overseas Chinese population of 50-70 million (8-9 million here) there aren't too many that actually stick beyond physical characteristics. Feel free to try though if it amuses you.

Whether or not a Thai Chinese person can speak standard Mandarin (or any other dialect of Mandarin for that matter) is not a good benchmark by which to judge whether or not they are keeping with the norms of their Chinese ethnicity. Indeed,:

“Until the mid-20th century, most Chinese people living in southern China spoke only their local language.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese

Standard Mandarin was introduced as the lingua franca of China fairly recently in modern history and was made the national language by the Han Chinese. It’s worth noting that a large number of Thai Chinese immigrated here before the policy took affect in China. Moreover, the vast majority of Thai Chinese are not Han. They are from the South East where most people speak their native dialect. I’ve met thousands of Thai Chinese here and most of them can speak or understand their native dialect as well as read Chinese characters (to one degree or another).

Edited September 6, 2009 by EffectiveAnger

[Bukseeda]

I am seriously considering a drink though, thanks. That's what's wonderful about ThaiVisa... you're never really drinking "alone" in your office at noon.

or working...

[cdnvic]

Fluency in mandarin wouldn't be a very good indicator anyway. Don't most Chinese Thais speak teochew, or at least came from families who did?

[ferd54]

Moreover, the vast majority of Thai Chinese are not Han. They are from the South East where most people speak their native dialect.

They are "Han" Chinese, the general term for ethnic Chinese (as opposed to minority groups). It is my understanding that the Teochu have their own dialect distinct from Cantonese, even though Canton and Swatow are close, both in Guangdong province.

[Heng]

Whether or not a Thai Chinese person can speak standard Mandarin (or any other dialect of Mandarin for that matter) is not a good benchmark by which to judge whether or not they are keeping with the norms of their Chinese ethnicity. Indeed,:

“Until the mid-20th century, most Chinese people living in southern China spoke only their local language.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese

Standard Mandarin was introduced as the lingua franca of China fairly recently in modern history and was made the national language by the Han Chinese. It’s worth noting that a large number of Thai Chinese immigrated here before the policy took affect in China. Moreover, the vast majority of Thai Chinese are not Han. They are from the South East where most people speak their native dialect. I’ve met thousands of Thai Chinese here and most of them can speak or understand their native dialect as well as read Chinese characters (to one degree or another).

Language not an effective benchmark? Silly. It's one of the major implements used to determine who is in and who is out... who you choose to do business and who to leave wondering why they missed the boat. And again, it doesn't matter what dialect is spoken because all Han effectively use the same written language that is universal. That's how Han Chinese in Chinatown in New York can do business with Han Chinese in Yaowarat who only speak Teochiu. The only thing that can't be done effectively is playing Pictionary, although like everything else, we have a team working on it. You're certainly not going to become a member of most business organizations, much less any of those secret societies of yours speaking Engilsh.

And again you demonstrate your lack of knowledge. The Thai Chinese, if you go by genetics are most definitely Han. If you go by the less scientific method of excluding some language groups, say like the Hakka (plenty of them in Thailand) then they might not be considered such. But if you think that the Teochiu or Hokkien are not Han, you're apparently operating solely from Google.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Heng

[ferd54]

For all intents and purposes, the term Han Chinese is all Chinese as we think of them today.

The distinction was more important in earlier times to note what type of Chinese they were in relation to the Manchus, the northern people who founded the Qing dynasty, or Mongols, who founded the Yuan dynasty. The Manchus and Han are totally interbred and integrated today. The Mongolians are still referred to as Mongolians (great insight there, eh?).

The term Han is often used today in relation to other groups that are Chinese citizens, but not ethnic Chinese. The most important use of the distinction relates to Tibet and Xinjiang Uyghur autonomous region -- how ethnic Chinese (i.e. Han) have taken over those areas.

[Lovia]

Wong=linage, not Wong from the Chinese surname.

Jek.