Massive Fee Hikes For Work Permits Mooted

[Felt 35]

Personally not affected, but more worried for the economic situation in the host country.

But sad to see so many foreigners in the “love it or leave it brigade” be so harsh and degenerating against others living here because some rightfully think an eventually 100% increase in a work permit fee is far to much?

On to say that Thailand not need someone here because they maybe are not so well of as themselves not exactly give a impression of fine class!

How is it where all of you sitting on high horses come from?

Is it the norm with a steep increase every decade and when most people around the world suffer because of an worldwide recession or would some logic be to have an annual increase in line with cost/income?

In most Western countries increase in cost are related to general income of the population. and a work permit fee should be in line with this countries cost of living/ income. Not some utopian price hike which is similar to cost in countries where average income are 5-10 times higher than here.

BTW, I would like to hear from the “love it leave it brigade” the day cost of living in Thailand are like In England, Tokyo, Scandinavia and a similar tax system.

[wolf5370]

I am not too concerned with $100 or so a year rise, but I hope the Government uses some common sense here. As its the employer that pays to WP bill, I hope they band the charge - Government schools, colleges and other offices can barely afford to hire qualified native speaking English teachers as it is, if anything these WP fees should be lowered or waved and large international companies should take up the slack and the bulk of the rise.

With WP prices hitting Government schools etc, more unqualified, un-WP's 'teachers' will take the place of qualified ones - why would this be beneficial to Thailand (for starters their would be no taxes coming in as the school could not register them without a WP and without some kind of teaching know-how this could well hurt the students more than help them).

After all it makes sense to a county to make their own people more attractive to employers and only where there is a real need should us foreigners be employed for any given role anyway. Maybe SMEs could be banded lower too - and positions that require a foreigner so real need is penalised.

[loong]

<snip>.. Thai people can be educated enough to do most of the jobs that foreigners here do, many companies here hire foreigners just to hire foreigners when they should be helping Thai people with upward mobility in the standard of living, higher standard of living means better consumer base and a stronger economy.. particularly in tech jobs; in any Thai rural village there will be some naturally strong math students--anyone of those people can be trained in programing or hi-tech work-but the government needs to help get the education to the poor people....<snip>

Why would a company employ foreigners if they could hire locals, probably for a lower wage?

I know these Thai villagers that you speak of and yes some are very smart. So why can't they get the good jobs? Maybe it's a question of attitude. It is a sad fact that every single Thai person that I have ever employed to do a job has committed the absolute minimum of effort, done a slapdash job and never actually finished the job. I've had people do glazing and tiling, cracked the pane or tile and actually left it in place. Then not understand what the problem is when I'm not satisfied!

I believe that some Thais do well because there is little in the way of competition. Do a good job and be conscientious and you may get somewhere in life.

Companies employ foreigners because of the different work ethic, I'm sure

I still think that if you don't like it just go home.

This is home

Exactly.

[rogerman]

I think for those in nice expat jobs, working for a big company, this means squat. For those in poorer paid professions, such as teaching, it could be a problem.

Regardless, it is a cynical tax raising opportunity by a government whose finances are under strain.

I am a teacher myself....I know it is one of the poorer paid professions, but come on!! If you can't live off 35,000 per month theres something very wrong. Sofar in the last four years (As a teacher) I have bought 5 Rai of land, a car, built an Orchid nursery on my wifes inherited land and started building a bigger one on the new block of land. I may be on 45,000 per month, but I also send 20,000 back home for my kids....... For the past four months, I have earned in excess of 95,000 per month

Try and beat that!!

Moaning and groaning gets you nowhere!! I have a back up if teaching goes tits up

[wolf5370]

....

A casual survey in Chiangmai would show that foreigners are operating cybercafes,

selling books in second hand book shops,and probably some other small businesses

which Thais can do too. Can you blame the Government from restricting employment of foreigners to safeguard the interest of the natives? After all these foreigners came in as tourists and stayed on.

....

I don't think these people should be targets here - if they are 'operating' either of these kinds of businesses, then they are invariably hiring Thais - which is a desirable out come. The target is those 'working in' not 'operating' businesses/roles that Thais could do. People running businesses here, paying taxes and hiring locals should never be a target!

[Geekfreaklover]

....

A casual survey in Chiangmai would show that foreigners are operating cybercafes,

selling books in second hand book shops,and probably some other small businesses

which Thais can do too. Can you blame the Government from restricting employment of foreigners to safeguard the interest of the natives? After all these foreigners came in as tourists and stayed on.

....

I don't think these people should be targets here - if they are 'operating' either of these kinds of businesses, then they are invariably hiring Thais - which is a desirable out come. The target is those 'working in' not 'operating' businesses/roles that Thais could do. People running businesses here, paying taxes and hiring locals should never be a target!

Selling books in a secondhand English book shop is a job that not many Thais can do. Trust me. They get their Hemmingways mixed up with their Hammetts and their Burroughs with their Burrgess.

For people that still read, please don't kill the secondhand book shops.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Geekfreaklover

[mortenaa]

I agree How can you spend 12 k's in a day or so I work my bloody ass of for 20 k's a month not every body has a cushy job I work for thai wages

Some people are more lucky than others

[mortenaa]

I'm still in KL to apply for a new Non-Immigrant B Visa, but they want to give me only a visa for three Months.

This is the second time already. First In Penang and now in KL. I have a one year work permit valid until 13 march 2010.

I cannot follow the law anymore. First you get only a work permit for three Months and you will get a one year Non-Immigrant B visa .

They changed the law beginning this year and they give you now one year work permit. This is not related to the visa anymore.

The counsellor told me that my work permit is only valid for 6 Months and that was not enough to give me a one year Non-Immigrant B. Are they getting insane?

I live already for 11 years in Thailand and I had never any problems with my visa neither with my work permit.

Sins my one year Non-Immigrant B visa expired in March 2009 , I get every time only 3 Months.

I told her, You know what! Give me a tourist visa for 2 Months and I go to make an extension for one Month . This visa cost me nothing, so what should I pay? And I renew my work permit when I'm back and take some vacation.

Eleven years in Thailand, work permit, pay taxes, 4 years own house, baby, married , Thai licenses, but they don't give any shit?

I get sick from Thai Government.

The law? If you have a Work Permit and working in an established business, you will go a get one-year extension within Thailand. What the f*** are you doing in KL??

[Captain Jack]

Lets not forget that the work permit (according to Thai "law") belongs to the company and not the individual. If the application/renewal fee increases then it is the company employing the alien that is liable to pay these fees, not the alien themselves.

If you are genuinely employed by a company then you shouldn't need to worry about it at all as your employer should pay it for you. If your company is making you pay the fee then they are breaking the law. The exception of course is when you employ yourself, in which case you are your own employer, and you yourself are liable for the fees.

[mortenaa]

Thailand is a location with a very screwed up infrastructure, a place where I would venture to say most of it's citizens do not pay taxes.

At least 90% of my Thai friends pay income tax. All people working in Thai companies pay tax. They also have to pay social security. All goods, items and services have a 7% value added tax. So on the contrary, i think most Thais pay tax.

[Geekfreaklover]

I recall I used to have to get the work permit stamped every 3 months, in line with the visa, now its every year. So the price of administration has been decreased at the same time that the price of processing proposed to be increased.

Amazing Thailand.

[Geekfreaklover]

Thailand is a location with a very screwed up infrastructure, a place where I would venture to say most of it's citizens do not pay taxes.

At least 90% of my Thai friends pay income tax. All people working in Thai companies pay tax. They also have to pay social security. All goods, items and services have a 7% value added tax. So on the contrary, i think most Thais pay tax.

I think the man has a point. There was something in the Thai media press recently showing stats that most Thais do not pay income tax. Your friends are probably in the good minority.

[Mitker]

Some here say they won't feel the hike since they easily spend the double on a restaurant (?!) while other say they'll leave..

Obviously, we're talking a about an issue affecting very different categories of expats and I understand some can be on the verge.

But globally, the problem rather seems to be the trend.

Hikes of 100% (supposed) or 200% (the former one) of fee doesn't really look like an "adjustment" to inflation, even over a span of 7 years. The message is perceived as: there's easy money to be milked there, so let's go.

When I requested my new 1 year visa at the Thai embassy, I was told by the staff attending me: "don't go thinking it is something easy to get!" (even if I have my own factory for years, pay all the fees (but tea money for none), hire Thai workers and invested millions already in the country). Again, the message is hardly appreciated .

And I won't insist on the prohibition to get a plot of land, engage in many economic sectors or the dual pricing system on many venues.

With that, the campaign to get the foreigners fingerprinted at police stations would almost go unnoticed .

So the point is not the amount of fee in itself. It's the message it carries.

Thailand offers opportunities but also downsides. It's a country among other alternative investment locations (and cost of living is just a factor among many others).

For these expats feeling rather the downside lately, yes, I think it can be the "detail" too much.

As for me, I won't leave for this but the list above would hardly make me ever think "this is my country". I'll just keep feeling like a "tolerated guest" until further notice and will commit myself accordingly .

[prighas]

Thailand is a location with a very screwed up infrastructure, a place where I would venture to say most of it's citizens do not pay taxes.

At least 90% of my Thai friends pay income tax. All people working in Thai companies pay tax. They also have to pay social security. All goods, items and services have a 7% value added tax. So on the contrary, i think most Thais pay tax.

I have to differ here. Many banks hire Thai locals as sales officers and do not include them on the payroll. They only receive commission if they are able to get a credit card application approved or a home loan secured from customers. When their commission falls below 20K per month (which normally does since they might have to secure at least 200 Million baht in loans), they do not need to pay any taxes whatsoever.

The only people you are referring to here are those that get the PRIVILEGE of having a regular pay from a respected organization - and those are usually the ones who graduate with a Masters degree from some unknown university somewhere outside the borders of Asia.

In my company, perhaps 5% of all Thai employees have pay greater than 20K per month.

Edited September 1, 2009 by prighas

[Mitker]

Thailand is a location with a very screwed up infrastructure, a place where I would venture to say most of it's citizens do not pay taxes.

At least 90% of my Thai friends pay income tax. All people working in Thai companies pay tax. They also have to pay social security. All goods, items and services have a 7% value added tax. So on the contrary, i think most Thais pay tax.

I think the man has a point. There was something in the Thai media press recently showing stats that most Thais do not pay income tax. Your friends are probably in the good minority.

Thais earning revenues below a certain amount (I don't remember exactly), don't have to pay any income taxes. It means most farmers, daily workers, low qualification workers, owners of very small businesses, etc..

I can imagine it may be the majority but hardly see it anywhere close to 90%.

[briboyxxx]

Anyone who says they are leaving because the fees are going up is obviously not making any money here.

f your thinking of going back to the UK because of this so called absurd amount you feel penalised by, wait till April 2010 when the government in the UK are going to increase tax by 50% on earnings over 50k and so on down the line.

Help yourself, head off home, good luck to you.

[prighas]

Anyone who says they are leaving because the fees are going up is obviously not making any money here.

f your thinking of going back to the UK because of this so called absurd amount you feel penalised by, wait till April 2010 when the government in the UK are going to increase tax by 50% on earnings over 50k and so on down the line.

Help yourself, head off home, good luck to you.

I'm assuming that when you pay tax in the UK, you surely get lots more returns on services than what you get in Thailand as a foreigner. For example, if you were a foreigner borrowing money from a bank (using your wife's name and you as a guarantor), you as a foreigner are not able to get any tax deductions on the loan since it is in your wife's name - when the bank fully acknowledges the fact that you are fully paying for the loan given your wife is unemployed. This is only one example. There's lot of advantages and disadvantages to the whole story and one must decide which one outweighs the other before a decision can be made.

Edited September 1, 2009 by prighas

[Geekfreaklover]

Anyone who says they are leaving because the fees are going up is obviously not making any money here.

f your thinking of going back to the UK because of this so called absurd amount you feel penalised by, wait till April 2010 when the government in the UK are going to increase tax by 50% on earnings over 50k and so on down the line.

Help yourself, head off home, good luck to you.

Do you have a source for that little nugget of information? - Last time I was in the uk I was paying 45% income tax, so it is going to be increased to 70(ish) % over 50K. Seems a tad harsh.

It's not about the price of work permit application. It's about the countries policy regarding foreign labour when there are other countries welcoming foreign labour with open arms in these time of economic woes.

But, as mentioned before, it's a moot point if you are not working here.

[swain]

The teachers will be thinned by this increase.. as the pay is not going up... when I say thinned I mean only the quality teachers.. that really will benefit their students... There will always be the teacher that really couldn't care less about their students and and is staying in Thailand for whatever reason. But there are quality teachers that will see inflation, devaluation of the dollar against the baht, and increases in fees as a good excuse to think about going back to the country of origin. Yes.. yes.. Thailand wont be losing any money with the exodus of these people ... but the quality will decrease... ...

[Oberkommando]

All in all, I challenge you to have the same quality of life in UK or USA for the same price you can do it here.

Easy.

Better quality housing, far better motor vehicles not to mention choice of those vehicles, second hand and new, are available at cheaper cost. Better education, and many other things conducive to a higher quality of life are available in Britain and Australia that aren't available in Thailand, such as safer roads, social security, better healthcare, etc, etc, etc.

Simply put, the same quality of life just isn't available to 99% of people in Thailand, be they Thai or foreign.

[Maestro]

An off-topic and nonsensical post about toilets has been deleted.

--

Maestro

[MegaMik]

I am really stunned by some of the contributors blatant lack of knowledge in work permit fees and possibly negative effects of raised ones.

It's NOT a tax or taxation targeted towards costs to use in the overall economy.

The work permit fee is supposed to cover costs when applying/denying the very same and follow up work.

If the Thai government would like to raise taxes, they should do so regardless what nationality is getting hit by it.

\Mik

[virtualtraveller]

Both sides have a point, 6,000 baht still isn't much for a much sought after work permit, but it's typical rip off mentality of the officials if the increase were to be 200%, say. The net result of course is that people will just go underground, not bother with a work permit and do the visa run thing.

It just boggles my mind that these highly paid officials sit around a boardroom table and come up with such nonsense right in the middle of a recession when they need to make the country as investment friendly as possible. Sure another 3000 or 5000 baht is nothing to a multinational, nice way to nickle and dime us foreigners but it clearly tells us all, 'we want you to come here and be squeezed of every dollar you have'.

What they should be doing is relaxing the work permit stipulations, regardless of the unfair hike I would happily fork out 6,000 baht each for 10 work permits for foreigners to work as English language copywriters in my business. It's a job THais can't do, but there's demand, I'm growing and bringing a lot of forex to this country and generating jobs (for people with lots of Thai dependents) in the midst of a recession. It's time they cut us a break.

[trevorg]

I have read all 8 pages of this thread, and it's a classic tale of 'rich versus 'poor', 'hard done by' versus 'well off', politics, racism and toilets! (for expats)!

I was going to add to the conversation on at least 6 occasions, but thought that I would read to the end, before doing so, in case somebody else beat me to it. Unfortunately, by the end, I realised that my thoughts and comments are probably better kept to myself.

I love this forum! - Can we stop blaming Thailand for ex-pat bashing?

The legitimate ex-pat 'way of life' finished in Thailand in the early nineties - where it belonged!

'English' teachers seem to be getting a bashing. They, or their defenders, don't seem to have any knowledge of written English and therefore are probably not best placed to teach English! (Not a direct quote - but a generalisation of many postings)

I'd like to suggest that this forum is populated by a huge variety of individual people, who, all have a different outlook on life, but, for a Thai 'centred' forum, there are a large number of people who like to 'pick' and 'nit-pick' many aspects and topics.

Apologies for wandering off topic!

Trev

Edited September 1, 2009 by trevorg

[taxin]

You could always work in Bali, friend of mine over there tells me the work permits are going up to USD$1,000.

[wasaskater]

How about raising the fine for being caught working without a work permit?!

[mortenaa]

In my company, perhaps 5% of all Thai employees have pay greater than 20K per month.

No-one in my company has less than 30k

[punisher]

In New Zealand they are not renewing work visas due to the recession and the unemployment rate (8%). so if your visa runs out and there is a Kiwi that can do the job then you are going home, like it or not. i guess being able to buy a renewal for a few thousand Baht isn't so bad - in comparison.

compare apples with pears,thailand is 3rd world new zealand is first

[mortenaa]

Thais earning revenues below a certain amount (I don't remember exactly), don't have to pay any income taxes. It means most farmers, daily workers, low qualification workers, owners of very small businesses, etc..

I can imagine it may be the majority but hardly see it anywhere close to 90%.

First 100k is exempt, then 10%. I didn't say 90% of the people, but most of my friends with a degree and an office job in BKK pay taxes. Even though the rates is lower than we are you used in the west.

[asean]

It would be good for the Thai government to take a more positive approach on foreigners. Not only is there the blatant discrimination, but also fee hikes like what they are considering is sending the wrong signal to the expat community.

Basically Thailand is saying: We don't like foreigners, so we will fine you for being here. It's things like this that create bad blood and racial problems in the long term. Also it does not much to increase their budget. It just creates more negative sentiment with expatriates.

After all, .... it is not a 1000 THB increase that will make people stop from getting a work permit, but if there is yearly 'harassment' like this, after a few years... expats will just go to a country that is more inviting to foreign know-how (and with it... bye bye 4 more Thai employees). I have to admit I have been thinking about it. There are other countries in Southeast Asia that are starting to be more and more appealing with a workforce that have decent English skills and good benefits for the expat and where you don't feel like being a cash cow with no rights.

We'll have to see if the Department will once again go for a few easy bucks now and will continue to hurt the Thai economy and the community of Expats or if they will see that we are living in a world without any real borders and that old-style vision is hurting them in this new society.

Good luck Thailand.

Can you suggest another country for me in s/e asia? :)Because the Thai government can't think of any other country that you would prefer to flee to. I noticed that when they raised car registrations and land taxes 200% plus in Australia not too many Australians fled. The reality is that most of us are here because we are treated and taxed a thousand times worse in our home countries.