Fed Up Paying The 150 Baht Bad Falang Fee?

[jfchandler]

Jim, a couple of points....

--Even if someone doesn't have a fee-free AEON ATM nearby or at some point in the future that option ceases, there still are at least at present quite a few U.S. bank account options that will refund all or some monthly amount of foreign ATM charges.... Schwab and E*Trade in the all category, and SalemFiveDirect in the $15 per month range, and I know of others in the $15 to $25 per month range.

So, even if ALL local Thai banks, meaning including AEON which isn't exactly Thai, eventually go to the 150 baht ATM fee, that doesn't mean in any way that at least Americans will need to be paying it.... or... that that should change your analysis about the fee-free ATM card in general being a more cost-effective route than even the BBK New York ACHs....

--Re bank counter withdrawals in Thailand... As I've posted here already, in looking at bank web sites and fees this week, I noticed that Chase and Wells Fargo have already implemented counter withdrawal fees when their card holders try to do those transactions at other banks, which certainly should include foreign ones. So if your home bank is charging you such a fee, that makes this option less attractive.

And regarding counter withdrawals here, did we ever get a clear sense of what kind of exchange rate the Thai banks here are doing those at??? I thought I remembered one example some time back where one of the banks was charging a separate, lower rate for that kind of transaction....but I may not be clear on my memory.... In any event, do we know.... would it be the standard buying TT, or a better rate comparable to what the fee-free debit cards yield.

--The various TV forums here on banking are filled with accounts of people describing how they wire their funds into Thailand and get a good rate... At least they THINK they do... So I think your point above bears repeating... incoming wires or BBK Bank New York ACHs are going to get exchanged at the buying TT rate, which is OK, but is always lower than the best rates possible with fee-free ATM cards, which are pretty close to the higher IER rates.

Actually, as of this year, I started receiving a pension payment from back home. And I'm having it deposited into one of my U.S. accounts. But I'd been thinking, for convenience, about the prospect of switching the destination to BKK Bank New York. But, after reading your analysis, and being reminded about the exchange rate differential, I think I'll leave the payment right where it is....and continue on the way I am now. Why would I want to pay extra fees every month for the ACH when I'm not going come out ahead, regardless.

So... if someone's home bank is charging them a 3% surcharge on foreign ATM withdrawals, then they're getting screwed a lot. If someone is paying a 150 baht ATM fee for every withdrawal because they're using the wrong Thai ATM or not getting in reimbursed, they're getting screwed a lot. If you're wiring funds into Thailand and paying a lot of fees and/or getting a lower exchange rate, you getting screwed a bit...

But if you're using a fee-free ATM card on the U.S. end and either using AEON ATMs here in Thailand or getting the 150 baht fees reimbursed....you're doing pretty good. Something to think about...

[JimGant]

JFC,

Yeah, you're 'right on' with the reimbursement of the 150bt ATM fees -- I'd overlooked that. But not all of the fee-free cards apparently do this. Didn't someone say Fidelity won't reimburse foreign ATM charges? Again, hit or miss.

But for those cards who do reimburse, this is still the unbeatable way to get cash in Thailand.

I thought I remembered one example some time back where one of the banks was charging a separate, lower rate for that kind of transaction..

Yeah, that was SCB. (SEE HERE)

This is a Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) rate for a 'cash advance' -- about 3.3% below the TT rate! Pure dog shiite.

But, by defintion, a cash advance is using a credit card, where the 'advance' is actually a loan. SCB actually alludes to this.

So, if you were to walk into SCB with an ATM/Debit card, and go thru the 'cash advance' procedure at the counter, what, indeed, would happen? It's not strictly a 'cash advance' -- it's money directly drawn from your home account. Can they apply DCC to such a transaction?

JFC, YOUR MISSION, SHOULD YOU ACCEPT, IS TO PROCEED TO SCB WITH YOUR DEBIT CARD. THIS INSTRUCTION WILL SELF-DESTRUCT.......

[jfchandler]

Hahaha.... thanks Jim... I may take you up on that challenge, as well.... I've never done a counter withdrawal in Thailand, so it seems one might be in the offing...

Yes, my memory about that was in regard to SCB... Which is interesting because, of all the things that have been reported here, I believe SCB has been said to have the highest per transaction limit on counter withdrawals, something like 200,000 baht....

So IF they're making a killing on the exchange rate for counter withdrawals by giving them a DCC rate (which would be much lower than even buying TT, then no wonder they're happy to do them in large amounts....

So...before I head down to SCB.... what about all the other TV folks out there who've done counter withdrawals... Can anyone post up the details of an SCB counter withdrawal??? Date of withdrawal at Thai bank, amount home currency charged, amount Thai baht received???

Someone has to have done an SCB counter withdrawal lately?????

[OriginalPoster]

And regarding counter withdrawals here, did we ever get a clear sense of what kind of exchange rate the Thai banks here are doing those at??? I thought I remembered one example some time back where one of the banks was charging a separate, lower rate for that kind of transaction....but I may not be clear on my memory.... In any event, do we know.... would it be the standard buying TT, or a better rate comparable to what the fee-free debit cards yield.

I did some experiments on that recently using an ATM card issued by a credit union the US which verifiably does not charge any foreign transaction fees. I got identical exchange rates (excluding the 150 baht ATM fee) when using the card at an ATM machine and when using the card at a Kasikorn exchange counter.

On the other hand, when I used my Fidelity ATM card a couple of weeks ago for a few similar transaction it was a bit confusing at first why the rates were what they were. I think that I got to the bottom of it. With Fidelity's ATM card, in their "terms and conditions" it says that the will charge a 1% foreign transaction fee. However in practice, they do not charge that 1% when you use the card at an ATM machine, they only charge it when you take out the money over the counter. Therefore if you withdraw 15000 baht, it's a breakeven of using an ATM machine (and paying the 150 baht fee) versus using an exchange counter.

One other interesting twist is that in one case I intended to use my credit unions ATM card (which is a debit card linked to my checking account) at an exchange counter but accidentally used my Credit Card instead. Once I noticed my mistake, I immediately transferred money from my checking account to pay-off the balance on the crdit card (including the cash withdrawal which had not yet cleared) in an attempt to avoid being charged a cash advance fee and getting whacked with interest charges. It worked, and I got the same rate as if I had used the ATM card (meaning no fees were accessed). That makes me wonder if that might be an economical way to move over an amount of money that exceeds your ATM card's daily limit. For instance, if you want to bring $20,0000 into Thailand, then what you'd do is transfer $20,000 into your credit card account and once the money is credited you go to a Thai bank and draw $20,000 worth of baht against the card, and then you immediately deposit those baht into a Thai bank account for safe keeping. It seems like that ought to work provided that you have a Visa credit card which truly doesn't charge any foreign transaction fees - the net effect would be that you'd have moved the money over in one shot and received a rate better than the TT rate (since interbank rates are typically higher than the TT rate).

Edited October 21, 2009 by OriginalPoster

[donx]

JFC,

Yeah, you're 'right on' with the reimbursement of the 150bt ATM fees -- I'd overlooked that. But not all of the fee-free cards apparently do this. Didn't someone say Fidelity won't reimburse foreign ATM charges? Again, hit or miss.

But for those cards who do reimburse, this is still the unbeatable way to get cash in Thailand.

I thought I remembered one example some time back where one of the banks was charging a separate, lower rate for that kind of transaction..

Yeah, that was SCB. (SEE HERE)

This is a Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) rate for a 'cash advance' -- about 3.3% below the TT rate! Pure dog shiite.

But, by defintion, a cash advance is using a credit card, where the 'advance' is actually a loan. SCB actually alludes to this.

So, if you were to walk into SCB with an ATM/Debit card, and go thru the 'cash advance' procedure at the counter, what, indeed, would happen? It's not strictly a 'cash advance' -- it's money directly drawn from your home account. Can they apply DCC to such a transaction?

JFC, YOUR MISSION, SHOULD YOU ACCEPT, IS TO PROCEED TO SCB WITH YOUR DEBIT CARD. THIS INSTRUCTION WILL SELF-DESTRUCT.......

We were using SCB to do counter withdrawals a few times this summer and the exchange rate matched what I got with my ATM card. The withdrawal was delayed, but as an example, we took out money that posted a few days later and the same day that we performed a withdrawal at a 150 baht fee-free ATM in another province and the exchange rate was identical.

[RubbaJohnny]

Small Beer

To put this debate in perspective 150 baht wont get you a small Chang even Airside at Swampy

WSBank Uk charges then refunds

One poster confused beer and Thais

Thais are allowed in KSA beer and usuary not have you been there lately?

Edited October 21, 2009 by RubbaJohnny

[JimGant]

We were using SCB to do counter withdrawals a few times this summer and the exchange rate matched what I got with my ATM card. The withdrawal was delayed, but as an example, we took out money that posted a few days later and the same day that we performed a withdrawal at a 150 baht fee-free ATM in another province and the exchange rate was identical.

That would suggest their advertisement for "cash advances" with the usurious DCC rates are strictly for credit cards.

As previously pointed out, an ATM/Debit counter transaction is not a 'cash advance' (since you're not 'advancing' anything, as this is just a debit to your existing funds). So, in your case, your debit card transaction was treated appropriately, i.e., not as a 'cash advance' but as a Point of Sale transaction.

Which is not to say they couldn't, in the future, apply their DCC rates to all plastic counter transactions.

[donx]

So, in your case, your debit card transaction was treated appropriately, i.e., not as a 'cash advance' but as a Point of Sale transaction.

Exactly. In fact, the transaction appeared in my online bank transaction listing as if a POS transaction had occured. There are two main differences though:

1. The transaction takes days to be recorded whereas POS transactions done in the US appear almost immediately (I have never done a POS transaction before overseas, so this actually might always be the case).

2. For whatever reason, I was never charged a POS fee. When we do POS transactions in the US, I am usually charged a fee of $0.25 per transaction.

[ThailandLovr]

<snip>

So...before I head down to SCB.... what about all the other TV folks out there who've done counter withdrawals...

<snip>

I was planning on doing a counter withdrawal next month using my Bank of America ATM/Debit card, so I though I would log in to their website and check out the applicable fees. A window opened with a rep offering to "chat" so I asked her about doing a bank counter withdrawal from here using my card. After waiting a few minutes for her to reply she said I was not able to do a counter withdrawal, and that the card had "restricted usage" here. Then she asked me if I had informed them of my intended use of the card overseas. I said I never had before so why now, so she backed off. I started getting nervous she would somehow do something to my account which made ATM usage no longer possible before contacting the bank. Really annoyed at myself for touching that can of worms. Fortunately I have the direct phone number to my BofA branch office contact back home so I can contact her if needed.

Anyway, the point being she said counter withdrawals were not allowed here, but I don't trust her reply. If somebody successfully executes one using their BofA ATM card, please let us know.

Edited October 22, 2009 by ThailandLovr

[jfchandler]

BofA charges a $5 fee and 3% cut for foreign ATM withdrawals, and I think similar for foreign purchases...

I'd be very careful what u try abroad with a Bof A card, except to keep it in your wallet.

[ThailandLovr]

BofA charges a $5 fee and 3% cut for foreign ATM withdrawals, and I think similar for foreign purchases...

I'd be very careful what u try abroad with a Bof A card, except to keep it in your wallet.

On all my ATM withdrawals in the recent past they have charged me $5 plus 1% foreign use fee. I can document if you want. Or is the other 2% hidden somehow? I trust your knowledge on the subject, just confused a bit.

Also, why did you make that second point? Surprised me.

Edited October 22, 2009 by ThailandLovr

[jfchandler]

ThailandLovr, you may be right....re their ATM cards...It's clearly a $5 pop per transaction outside the U.S.

I thought there was an additional 3%, but in just checking BofA's web site, they don't appear to say. And I may be remembering the 3% in relation to their credit cards vs. their debit card.

As to my comment, I was a 20+ year BofA customer for most of my adult life in the U.S. And then when I came to Thailand as a tourist the first time, I used my BofA debit and credit cards, not thinking too much about it, other than knowing there'd be an exchange conversion.

And boy, was I surprised... $5 per pop and the % fee... So every time I used my card, I had three separate charges showing up on my statements... That, and, BofA does NOTHING to support their customers in Thailand, even though they have a commercial office here in Bangkok.

That was the last time I ever dealt with BofA, and ever will again.

[kiwiinasia]

I'm the last one to defend the 150 baht Thai ATM fee...

But really, it sounds like you ought to focus on finding a better home bank.

True if there was a choice, but sadly there is not.

The NZ banking industry is small and dominated by Australian banks with little or no real competition.

I have created the spreadsheet and worked out that at B20K I can save about 212baht by using TT to my Thai Bank (BAY if I could find the book).

I can save even more if I use a forex company, which I am going to do once I find the bank book.

Is it worth crying over 3 pounds?

There are plenty of other countries to live in.

Some people are so sensitive to being 'taken advantage of'.

It is worth crying over and being very careful about money.

You earn your money once, you pay tax on it and then some bank wants to charge you $$$ for an electronic transaction that costs pennies and involves no human being.

Its a monopoly fee in effect where all the banks have the same attitude of pay it.

Since I created my post I have been setting up bank accounts and forex trading accounts and come to the realisation that for me as a New Zealander to transfer money to Thailand I should use my b@st@rd bank after all but send the money as a TT of NZ Dollars to get the much better rate offered by my Thai Bank (Ayudhya).

So my advice to all kiwis is to:

1) get a thai bank account

2) tt the money in NZ$ to the thai bank

On 10,000NZD I got 3800 baht more than a TT of Thai baht from NZ.

So I get at least one more nite out on the turps and thats very much worth it.

[William Osborne]

I don't pay the robbers any more. Now I only use my Siam City Bank ATM card. I have my funds wired to my bank every 3 months and that charge is $20.00. I know whatever you do, you still have to pay someone somewhere, but I will be DARNED if I will pay the 150 baht

A large font is not acceptable here.

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